Self-immolation reports spread through north Africa by Niki2

That is one method of "non-violent" protest, but it only "works" if the word gets out, if there are cameras.

I wonder how much change this can effect.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 12:18 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Less than nothing.

Now Im going to be cruel. Im going to be spoiled...

But if shit is so bad in your home... In your nation. In your country. Hell, on your continent.

Instead of lighting YOURSELF on fire, light the ones who are MAKING IT HELL on fire! FIGHT.

Stop being a fuken VICTIM. FIGHT.

Yeah, you may die, but so? You are starving, your daughter has Aids, and your wife has been gang raped, TWICE.

FIGHT.

What have you got to lose?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 1:55 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Poor Wulf...you really have no grasp of reality, do you? The way your mind works leaves me sad for you; I wonder what would happen if you were ACTUALLY put in some of the positions where you advocate people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Hopefully you'll mature as you age.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, January 17, 2011 2:01 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Um... Im not THAT young, Nix.

And yes, I do have pity for people in these kind of situations. I actually GET it more than you do.

I just argue that instead of a slow, bad death doing NOTHING...

DO SOMETHING.

If I was put in the situation they are facing, with nothing left to lose...

Why NOT take some of them with me?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 2:07 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

No way you "get it", little one; your writings would have shown it if you did. I'm speaking to that good old black-and-white thinking of yours, that everything can be solved with violence, or that violence against those you disagree with is always the best option, etc., etc.

Has nothing to do with pity--that's part of how I know you don't get it. I'd say "try again", but I don't think you have any other answers...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, January 17, 2011 2:46 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So, in a war torn shit-hole, 3rd world country... violence is not an option?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Its the last, ONLY option.

Im not expecting a spoiled limo-lib like you to understand but..

When your back is against the wall, you fucking pull your knife, grin (if you are me), and dive into those who are trying to destroy you, yours and all the hope that you have.

You take as many of those animals with you as you can.

If you are very very lucky, you win. If not, you make them pay.

EVERY STEP.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 2:56 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Some people are nonviolent. Respect their choices, and make your own.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Monday, January 17, 2011 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Instead of lighting YOURSELF on fire, light the ones who are MAKING IT HELL on fire! FIGHT.

Stop being a fuken VICTIM. FIGHT.

I understand this sentiment. I do.

But now I get to argue on the side of non-violence.

1. You don't have weapons to fight. Yes, you can get to take as many of them with you as possible. They're armed, and you're not. That means 1 or 2 of them. Out of 50,000.

It's not so easy to set OTHER people on fire, you know.

2. You can try to take out unarmed civilians cause they are easy targets, just to get back at *somebody,* but that is despicable. So this is NOT an option.

3. You can try guerilla warfare with sticks and stones, but then you'll just get the Intifada. And life gets to really suck for the ones who don't die.

4. Even if you DO have weapons, the chances of success for an armed revolution is very small. Yes, on the other thread, we talk about Afghanistan vs. Russia, and USA vs. Britain. But both had significant support of a foreign government.

If we're talking about straight guerilla warfare, we're not talking about winning. We're talking about killing and killing and killing with no end in sight. True, guerilla warfare can keep the govt from winning, but they can also keep you from winning. So it is years and years of death and mayhem and unending war. You want to think LONG and HARD before you go down that road.

You either get a quick violent end to your armed revolution, or you get Iraq vs. USA or the Civil War.

You'd want to try all non-violent negotiations and incentives first.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:11 AM

DREAMTROVE

I think that this has become a publicit stunt suicide.

Ever noticed how many suicides are drama queens? I have often wondered if this was not the real goal in suicide, "hey, pay attention to me!" with the logical caveat of "oops, now I'm dead."

And yes, I know, it's an insensitive remark, many people close to me have committed suicide. I think amother thing which would help the situation would be an imminent threat.

Particularly, I think the guy in Egypt was being a dick. He wants his business to be able to profit from a food subsidy to the poor.

I prefer the Eritrean shoe throwing incident, and it's Iraqi copycat.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 7:17 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Poor Wulf...you really have no grasp of reality, do you? The way your mind works leaves me sad for you; I wonder what would happen if you were ACTUALLY put in some of the positions where you advocate people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Hopefully you'll mature as you age.

You mean like taking on 3 part time jobs until you can work at that what you actually want to do ? Sounds to me as if you're actually stating a case FOR giving up and lighting one's self on fire.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 8:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Things must be pretty bad for people to resort to this!...and we bitch about having it "so bad"...

Actually, the reasons ascribed for the self-immolation are things that happen in the States everyday.

Quote:
The men who have set themselves alight in recent days appeared to be inspired by the self-immolation of Tunisian Mohamed Bouazizi, a university graduate whose fruits and vegetables market stand was confiscated by police because it had no permit....

The 48-year-old owner of a small restaurant who set himself on fire outside the parliament building Monday in central Cairo was angry about a government policy preventing restaurant owners from buying cheap subsidized bread to resell to their patrons, according to security officials at the scene.

Having your fruit stand closed because it had no permit, or not being allowed to sell say, USDA surplus donations....those things are so routine in the USA they are very well accepted.

IF these reasons are accurate (cause it's the news, so who really knows, right?), it would suggest these individuals are less tolerant of government regulations than most Americans, or these regulations in their countries have significant implications in their economies and their livelihoods.

Or maybe they are drama queens like DT says, though I personally don't believe it.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

CTTS did a great job of explaining why you DON'T "get it", Wulf, so I'll leave it at that. Your solutions are virtually always "kill 'em", without much, if any, thought beyond that.

I also agree with DT, and don't think it's a particularly insensitive remark. I think cultural differences come into it, a sense of hopelessness, and a desire to bring something to the attention of others, but I also can't help wondering at the choice of methods, and what might be psychologically behind that choice.

Quote:
You mean like taking on 3 part time jobs until you can work at that what you actually want to do ?

Not even slightly. Having the opportunity to DO what you said has nothing to do with what I’ve read about those cases. Again CTTS nailed it with

Quote:
these regulations in their countries have significant implications in their economies and their livelihoods

Whereas in America few actually starve to death, in those countries they DO, with horrific regularity. If one’s livelihood (and they don’t have the option of working three jobs, jobs are hard enough to come by to get even ONE!) is made impossible, there are few choices to turn to. In Asia, it’s not an uncommon practice to actually MUTILATE one’s children so they will make more pathetic beggars...or did you think Slumdog Millionaire was pure fiction? It wasn’t, I assure you.

In America, the poor have the option of looking for work; taking the most menial jobs available to survive; being helped to survive by one or another means of safety net. In many Asian, Middle East and African countries, no such options exist for far too many of the population. Throughout time, that having been the case, the value of human life is FAR less than it is here. Again, going right back to the fact that living in an extremely harsh environment increases the value of an afterlife and decreases the value of life (which helps make for suicide terrorists); ergo, the loss of one’s life is not felt to be as great as it is to us. That’s part of the “not getting it”.

Much has changed since I lived there, of course, but for the truly poor, not so much, especially those born into castes which deny them the option of improving their lives.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:59 AM

DREAMTROVE

Oh, I just meant it was sort of a drama queen action in general, but I've seen some unreasonable demands here. People asking for the right to sell food which was meant for the poor. I'm not sure, maybe the media is focusing on the part of the story which is a non story again, and not the man story, which isn't getting the attention.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 10:34 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I wonder how much change this can effect.

Quote:
Less than nothing.

Quote:

Could the protests be the beginning of the end for the Tunisian regime?

A unity government is due to be announced in Tunisia after President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali stepped down and fled the country following weeks of anti-government protests and clashes with police. Until recently, the north African nation - a popular tourist destination - had been seen as a haven of stability and relative prosperity, albeit one ruled with an iron first.

What sparked the unrest?

A desperate act by a young unemployed man on 17 December triggered a much wider series of protests and clashes with the police.

Mohamed Bouazizi set fire to himself when officials in his town prevented him from selling vegetables on the streets of Sidi Bouzid without permission.

This set off protests about jobs in the town, which has an agriculture-based economy in one of the poorest regions of the country.

These demonstrations then spread elsewhere,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12157599

Also interesting:

Quote:
Wikileaks revelations last month about corruption within the ruling elite may have exacerbated the situation, analysts say.

It should also be noted that this is not the first time self-immolation has sparked mass protests and shaken regimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romas_Kalanta

It's horrific and sad, but undoubtedly very effective at giving impetus to protest movements.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 10:56 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

""hey, pay attention to me!""

Hello,

This is the entire point of any demonstration or protest. Does this surprise you or dismay you? What form of political speech does not have this as its goal?

"I think the guy in Egypt was being a dick. He wants his business to be able to profit from a food subsidy to the poor."

It may be desirable to look deeper into this. Why is someone pushed to their wits' end by an inability to sell subsidized bread? Rather than accuse him of being a dick, perhaps a bit of understanding is warranted. What is going on here?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Good point about self-immolation potentially contributing to uprisings.

Of course it's to bring attention to oneself. I don't think I said it wasn't. I just wondered about the psychology of using suicide to do so; while I understand some of the impetus, the feeling of hopelessness, etc., I found myself wondering about the "drama queen" remark.

Quote:
It may be desirable to look deeper into this. Why is someone pushed to their wits' end by an inability to sell subsidized bread? Rather than accuse him of being a dick, perhaps a bit of understanding is warranted. What is going on here?

One person matters not to a government, you know that. And few will take the time or energy to try to understand such things. That's how I see it.

And a to what's going on, for me it is pretty much answered by abject poverty and the loss of livelihood or any ability to MAKE a living. I am guessing the guy who did it over the permit wouldn't have been alowed a permit; if so, that takes away his chances of surviving.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:15 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Some people are nonviolent. Respect their choices, and make your own."

Agreed. It is a choice.

It bugs me that some would choose to stay a victim, to allow their friends, families, and neighbors to continue to BE victims.

Thats all.

You don't want to fight. Ok. Its your choice and you might have good reasons for it.

But then you have NO right to complain about being hungry, or to yell when someone has hurt you or yours.

You have chosen to be a sheep, and shouldn't whine when you are sheared or slaughtered.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:20 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You don't want to fight. Ok. Its your choice and you might have good reasons for it.

But then you have NO right to complain about being hungry, or to yell when someone has hurt you or yours."

Hello,

I am aghast at this notion. You feel that if someone is nonviolent, then they have no rights. Not even to speak.

A man changed the whole of India without violence, and I assure you he did complain, and he did yell when someone hurt him or those he cared about.

To deny people their rights, basic recognition as human beings, because they choose not to pick up the sword... that is adopting the philosophy of their oppressors. What a beastly bargain you've drawn. Is killing the only speech you recognize?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 11:33 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok, I should clarify.

You shouldnt have the right to yell if, by actions (violent), save me and mine AND you and yours.

It just seems like a homeless person complaining that the sandwich you just gave him has no mustard.

You might not like my actions, but they are what allowed you to continue to breathe. So maybe you shouln't use that breath to condemn me? I don't know.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
You might not like my actions, but they are what allowed you to continue to breathe. So maybe you shouln't use that breath to condemn me? I don't know.

But wait, Wulf. Those people who set themselves on fire didn't condemn you.

You condemned *them* for not fighting, remember?

We defended their right to *not* fight.

No one condemned your right *to* fight, see?

You got the argument all twisted up.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:07 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"You got the argument all twisted up."

Hello,

I think the mere existence of nonviolent resistance to authority somehow made Wulf defensive and angry.

It is telling that he saw people making nonviolent protest, and responded to the mere concept with antagonism as though it was an assault on him personally.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:08 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Maybe.

My argument that was instead of setting yourself on fire, set your abuser on fire.

I argue against the idea that suicide is a viable option in promoting positive change.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 12:09 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"It is telling that he saw people making nonviolent protest, and responded to the mere concept with antagonism as though it was an assault on him personally."

Don't do that.

Don't compare setting oneself on fire as some pretty form of non-violent protest.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

P.S I'm all out of fuken bubblegum.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Don't compare setting oneself on fire as some pretty form of non-violent protest."

Hello,

Who said it was pretty? Do you think nonviolence is flowers and candy?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I argue against the idea that suicide is a viable option in promoting positive change."

Hello,

You have repeatedly, in recent memory, advocated suicide missions of violence in order to promote positive change. "Take as many with you as possible" is a good paraphrase of recently stated philosophy from your own fingertips.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:40 PM

DREAMTROVE

Maybe people need to chill, just a little, on all sides. I think we have isolated incidents, copycat crimes. Tragic, like school shootings. I don't think its really a major political situation. The political problems of the world are complicated, and involve the balance of very large amounts of power. They don't really hinge on desperate actions of disenfranchised individuals.

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:42 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Poor Wulf...you really have no grasp of reality, do you? The way your mind works leaves me sad for you; I wonder what would happen if you were ACTUALLY put in some of the positions where you advocate people pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. Hopefully you'll mature as you age.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

ROFL. Do you just paste a standard reply to Wulf? He said don't light yourself on fire to prove a point....light the cunts on fire. That is delusional to you? Man, you fat, old, bi-sexual hippies are hilarious.....

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Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:15 AM