REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

As goes Egypt...?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, February 18, 2011 15:48
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Monday, February 14, 2011 2:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Unrest has spread across the Middle East and North Africa. Here's a look at what has happened -- and what is happening -- in various countries:

ALGERIA

Authorities in Algeria said Monday that they would lift a 20-year state of emergency in the "coming days." They acted after anti-government protesters chanting "change the power!" clashed with security forces in the capital over the weekend, witnesses said. The state of emergency was imposed in 1992 to quell a civil war that led to the deaths of what U.S. officials estimate to be more than 150,000 people. About 100 protesters were arrested during the protests in Algiers on Saturday, according to the opposition Algerian League for Human Rights.

BAHRAIN

Protests were scheduled to take place Monday afternoon in the Persian Gulf nation of Bahrain, where at least three police officers and one demonstrator were injured in clashes Sunday, the state new agency reported. The injuries occurred during an attack on a police station during protests Sunday evening, the news agency said. After three officers were injured, police fired on protesters with rubber bullets, causing one injury, the news agency said.

EGYPT

Unrest persisted in Egypt on Monday even after an 18-day revolution toppled longtime President Hosni Mubarak, who stepped down Friday. Egypt's banks remained closed Monday after protests by National Bank workers apparently drove out the head of the institution. The nation's stock market remained closed until further notice because of turmoil in the banking sector. In addition, current and former police officers continued a peaceful protest Monday in front of the Interior Ministry, saying they want higher pay, shorter hours, better benefits and more respect. And some police officers told reporters they were ordered to shoot protesters during demonstrations last week and threatened with prison if they did not.

IRAN

Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched along Revolution Avenue in downtown Tehran on Monday, protesting the government of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, witnesses said. The wave of people remained largely silent as they walked toward the capital city's Azadi Square, though some clashes between security forces and demonstrators broke out in several parts of Tehran, according to witnesses. Security forces fired tear gas in some places and detained demonstrators in other areas of the city. The Iranian government rounded up activists last week after opposition leaders Mehdi Karrubi and Mir Hossein Moussavi called for supporters to gather at Azadi Square -- the site of mass protests by Iran's opposition movement after the disputed 2009 presidential elections.

IRAQ

Thousands of people rallied this month in cities across the country, protesting rampant poverty, a 45% national unemployment rate and shortages of food, electricity and water. Most recently, hundreds of angry demonstrators took to the streets of Ramadi -- about 60 miles (100 kilometers) west of Baghdad -- to protest the government's inability to provide basic services. After the protests began, Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki announced he would cut his salary in half amid the growing unrest over poor public services and water shortages. State television also reported this month that al-Maliki would not run for a third term when his current one expires in 2014.

JORDAN

U.S. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, traveled over the weekend to Jordan, where King Abdullah II swore in a new government last week following anti-government protests in his country. The new government has a mandate for political reform and is headed by a former general, with several opposition and media figures among its ranks. The appointment of new Prime Minister Marouf al Bakhit was seen as an attempt to shore up support among Jordan's Bedouin tribes -- the bedrock of the monarchy. Jordan's economy has been hard-hit by the global economic downturn and rising commodity prices, and youth unemployment is high, as it is in Egypt. Officials close to the palace have told CNN that Abdullah is trying to turn a regional upheaval into an opportunity for reform.

LIBYA

There were calls made through Facebook for a day of peaceful demonstrations in Libya on Monday. The protests come in the shadow of leader Moammar Gadhafi, who has ruled the country for almost 40 years and had expressed support for former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak during the crisis there. It was not immediately clear Monday whether protests had taken place.

PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES

Prime Minister Salam Fayyad's Cabinet submitted its resignations to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Monday, days after the announcement of new elections in September. The Palestinian Territories have not seen the same kind of demonstrations as in many Arab countries, but the government has been under criticism since Al-Jazeera published secret papers claiming to reveal some of the wide-ranging concessions Palestinian officials were prepared to make in negotiations with Israel. Negotiations have collapsed. Abbas' Palestinian Authority holds sway only over the West Bank. The militant Islamist movement Hamas controls Gaza.

SYRIA

As protests heated up around the region, the Syrian government pulled back from a plan to withdraw some subsidies that keep the cost of living down in the country. President Bashar al-Assad also gave a rare interview to Western media, telling The Wall Street Journal for a January 31 article that he planned reforms that would allow for local elections and also included a new media law and more power for private organizations. A planned "Day of Rage" that was being organized on Facebook for February 5 failed to materialize, The New York Times reported.

SUDAN

Demonstrators have clashed with authorities on several recent occasions in Sudan. Human Rights Watch has said that "authorities used excessive force during largely peaceful protests on January 30 and 31 in Khartoum and other northern cities to call for an end to the National Congress Party rule and government-imposed price increases." Witnesses said that security forces used pipes, sticks and tear gas to disperse protesters and that several were arrested, including 20 who remain missing. The Sudanese Embassy said that people in Sudan have the right to "demonstrate as they wish" but that "some opportunists capitalize" on incidents "to inspire chaos or smear Sudan's image."

TUNISIA

The European Union's top foreign policy official, Catherine Ashton, met Monday with government and civil society leaders in Tunisia, the North African country where protests in December sparked unrest that has spread across North Africa and the Middle East. After weeks of demonstrations that started in December, longtime President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali fled the country. Since then, Italy has complained about a wave of migrants from Tunisia coming into its territory.

YEMEN

Clashes broke out between pro- and anti-government protesters in Yemen's capital, Sanaa, for at least the third day in a row Monday. About 200 anti-government protesters were confronted by about 300 counter-demonstrators, and the two sides threw rocks at each other and brandished daggers and knives. Several protesters were arrested. On Sunday, hundreds of anti-government protesters marched toward the presidential palace, but were blocked by security forces. Protesters attempted to reach the palace on side streets, and riot police reportedly used force in attempting to disperse them. Human rights group Amnesty International condemned the use of force in a statement issued Monday. Clashes also erupted Friday night and Saturday. Yemen's Embassy in Washington said the opposition coalition had announced its intention to hold a dialogue with the administration. Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh has been in power for 32 years and has pledged not to run for re-election when his current term ends in 2013.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/14/arab.region.unrest/index.htm
l?hpt=Sbin


Wow...the Middle East is on FIRE! What times we live in; I wonder how it will all come out?




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off





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Monday, February 14, 2011 7:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Change is indeed afoot, I'm particularly excited about some change in Iran. I agree we'll have to wait and see what happens, improvements hopefully.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:16 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Change is indeed afoot, I'm particularly excited about some change in Iran. I agree we'll have to wait and see what happens, improvements hopefully.



The key column is the FTA on the left as stated at the top of the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_-_Middle_East_Free_Trade_Area

"excited" is not a word I would use. If I took it seriously, I would move to worried. If I thought they actually were going to give it a go, I'd go with terrified.

This subject has been much discussed on this board, and whether or not the US plan for war with Iran, through whatever means it is able, can potentially spark WWIII...

China and Russia have both already stated that they will back Iran against a US takeover. China has openly stated that it will arm Iran with any weapons necessary in the effort, and Russia has openly stated that it will return fire in kind directly on the US with whatever weapons we use against Iran.

Now that's some serious posturing by powers who don't want to see a US Imperial presence in Asia.

And don't kid yourself that the Iranians want to throw out their govt. and replace it with something that likes us. It's the CIA. There is no revolution in Iran without our involvement, and Russia and China will notice that.

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 5:24 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
There is no revolution in Iran without our involvement, ....

I don't think that is necessarily true.

During the 2009 protests, they explicitly told the USG that they wanted to change their govt, BUT they don't want the USG anywhere near their effort.


-------
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:08 AM

DREAMTROVE


Depends on the they.

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:37 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Depends on the they.



Hmmm... perhaps.

But even that is not what you were trying to present as fact....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 9:18 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Story:
But even that is not what you were trying to present as fact



This is an accusation, a red flag to not debate.


There are many they in Iran, as everywhere. Groups with any kind of agenda.

I feel for anyone who decides to follow a revolution with our backing. The govt. has no choice but to fire on them. It's ...



The US cannot actually back such a revolution, it can only promise to, China and Russia will back the other side.

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:01 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Wow...the Middle East is on FIRE! What times we live in; I wonder how it will all come out?




Thanks for the list Niki - absolutely amazing. I believe it's largely because they are just now finding the tools to organize and fight back. Guns and gun powder cost money, Twitter and Facebook are free.
I think it's symbolic of an even larger movement, one that's been happening for some time but was recently accelerated by the latest internet technologies. Specifically: that we're all getting closer and closer to being more alike. We're more connected now than ever, more and more conversations between more and more people from around the globe. The Global Village is showing its dominance over some of these governments - will it stop there? I think China is next unless they move quickly.

Please note: as of 2011 I reserve the right to make as many wild ass statements as I feel like making. Thanks you.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:52 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Wow...the Middle East is on FIRE! What times we live in; I wonder how it will all come out?




Thanks for the list Niki - absolutely amazing. I believe it's largely because they are just now finding the tools to organize and fight back. Guns and gun powder cost money, Twitter and Facebook are free.
I think it's symbolic of an even larger movement, one that's been happening for some time but was recently accelerated by the latest internet technologies. Specifically: that we're all getting closer and closer to being more alike. We're more connected now than ever, more and more conversations between more and more people from around the globe. The Global Village is showing its dominance over some of these governments - will it stop there? I think China is next unless they move quickly.

Please note: as of 2011 I reserve the right to make as many wild ass statements as I feel like making. Thanks you.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com



IOW, we're approaching group-think ;)

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 2:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Dreamtrove a chara, Have I mentioned how much I love your name? Like a treasure trove, but a trove of dreams, hopefully nice dreams. Anyways I meant a revolution run by the people there in Iran, not something that we stick in like a coup. If the people of Iran organize and really want to have change will Russia and China really oppose it? Are they, like, best buddies with the current president of Iran?

I'm not a fan of "The Global Village" thing, I don't like hemogeniety. So I don't want everyone to be exactly like each other. But I do want the people to determine what they want, and hopefully that determination doesn't hurt lots of others in the process, as in "Okay, now that the people elected us and we're in power, lets bomb the living daylights out of our neighbors and go on a rampage, the people chose us afterall."

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Some of these revolutions will fail, some will succeed. What we need to wrap our heads around is that some of them will doubtless lead to changes we don't like. If they're actually moving towards more freedom, I'm all for it. If they're just changing dictators, switching the leash hand and the whip hand, I'm disappointed.

Just don't forget that the Taliban were elected, too. So was Hamas. Heck, once upon a time, it's even rumored that Ahmedinejad was elected...

Point being, people vote THEIR interests, not necessarily OURS.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:43 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Valid points Quicko, that is why I give lots of noncommital statements like "We'll see what happens"

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:56 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Point being, people vote THEIR interests, not necessarily OURS.


As they should.


-------
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:31 PM

DREAMTROVE


Riona a chara,

Thanks ;)

Alas, even if there were a popular revolution *(I don't believe there is, but more on this in a second) I don't think it would end well. The Iranian govt. is armed to the teeth, has tremendous international backing, and is a first world nation state, it's very much like overthrowing the govt. of Great Britain or Germany today than it would be like overthrowing the govt. of Yemen. (I would agree that overthrowing Egypt is also way up there on the difficulty scale, but the revolution, while not yet successful, has a chance because Egypt lacks a military backer outside of Israel at the moment, and it is an actual dictatorship, which is always easier to overthrow.)

China's ambivalent towards the govt. of Iran. Their overwhelming concern is stability. They see an unstable Iran as a worst case scenario. (One of the nice things about communism is that when you are a dictator who holds absolute power, there is no reason to lie.) Anyway, China would be unhappy with a pro-US Iran, but will support the current govt. because it is stable, and has also promised them lots of oil.

Russia actively dislikes the govt. in Iran, but supports the Chinese position. To the Russians, a pro-US Iran is probably the worst case scenario, but they view an unstable Iran as highly undesirable. Russia has shown no interest in overthrowing the current regime in Iran (Probably in part because they have a very long history of attempting and failing in that regard.)

*per Iranian revolutions, the Iranians I meet, both online and in the US, seem overwhelmingly to broadcast one message: They're not entirely happy with their govt., or the structure of the church, but they think that it is infinitely preferable to any viable alternative. Their primary goal is that Iran survive, both as a people, and as a nation with self determination.

I have a friend here in town who is a Christian and fought in two revolutionary wars with the govt. of Iran, one for, and later one against. He surprised me by giving a glowing account of the Ayatollah. I was taken aback, so I asked him why he felt this way, and he said that Iran is filled with muslim extremists, not a majority, but like every muslim nation, people who would like to see their country plunge into the dark ages. He said Khamenei is actually a moderate, and by being the voice of the religious right, he holds the extremists at bay. Much more than being the leader of the nation, he said, he is the leader of the religious, and if they (the extremists) turn against him (the Ayatollah) that said extremists would have no credibility in Iran. He said he thought it was all the Ayatollah could do to keep extremist elements under control, and that he fears for Iran if someone were to remove that.

I thought this was a uniquely middle-eastern perspective, and something that I would never have thought of, and I think most of us here wouldn't, which is one of many reasons why we need to let other people sort out their differences and not get involved (with obvious exceptions for genocide, when total destruction is inevitable, and when someone has asked for our help.)

But alas, we are involved, twice. On the one hand, our nations fingerprints are all over the revolution, as is our money; and on the other, we're responsible in part for the situation. The military posturing the US is doing right now, surrounded Iran with military bases and troops, and threatening war, even nuclear war, makes it impossible for the Iranians to engage in serious discussion of reform. Any instability, weakness, or the letting in of pro-western factions actually *does* compromise defenses and put Iran at risk, but also, this fact gives the more conservative elements a platform on which to push for a more militaristic stance. Additionally, it does not help that Iran is somewhat forced by the position to devote overwhelming resources towards defense. The Iranians have actually made a contingency plan of their own, by building bases in Venezuela, to attack the US directly if we invade, but they also have the very obvious countermeasure that they could attack Israel, or our forces in the middle east. In short, it's not a pretty situation.

(I don't think that this is really about Ahmadinejad one way or the other, this situation really came to a head in 2002, three years before he became president. I don't get the feeling that the international community really has any feelings about him one way or the other except that he's popular in the muslim world and unpopular with the rest, but no, I don't think that it's seriously weighing into Russia or China's position)

Quote:

I'm not a fan of "The Global Village" thing, I don't like hemogeniety. So I don't want everyone to be exactly like each other.



I agree completely! This is something that really bugs me. Every time things are merged and assimilated, something is lost… cultures, languages, even economies. (this last is one I'm beginning to appreciate more and more. If we slide into one big economy, our extreme income/class gap will become immutable and rigid.)

Quote:

But I do want the people to determine what they want, and hopefully that determination doesn't hurt lots of others in the process, as in "Okay, now that the people elected us and we're in power, lets bomb the living daylights out of our neighbors and go on a rampage, the people chose us afterall."


I agree. I don't think that's what's going on in Iran. I get that Ahmadinejad does not represent the mainstream of Iranians, that's not really why he's in power. He's in power for basically two reasons:
1) He represents the least worst. The extremists are terrified of the reformers because they see them as an American takeover, and the reformists are terrified of the extremists because they see them as a fundamentalist takeover, so Ahmadinejad represents a third choice, and it doesn't really matter that only 15% or so of the people agree with him, most of the country supports him because it beats the alternative.
2) He will defend Iran, and has thus far proven that he can. When a country is under constant threat of invasion, this is a pretty major playing piece. He's played a pretty good brinksmanship game with the west, and has kept conspicuously mum about Iran shooting down predator drone attacks, as have we. Clearly he doesn't want to acknowledge a state of war. A similar thing is going on with Iranian supported militias throughout the middle east, which is stem largely from Israel's invasion of Beirut, but now are a problem, as they are bound to be fighting us in places, not something either side wants. (Iran offered help to us in Iraq several times. They could have just invaded, but that would put them in a war against us, which they don't want on the same level as we don't want a war with Russia or China.)

At the moment, I think cooler heads are prevailing. My greatest fear for the whole situation is that the cooler heads (Ahmadinjad and Obama, neither of them objectively "cool heads" but not yet starting WWIII) could be replaced by random unknown heads. Consider what happens if muslim extremists take power in Iran and decide to invade Israel, Iraq, or even Afghanistan or Pakistan on the grounds that ethnic persian populations are under attack there? Obviously that escalated into catastrophe. Now consider what happens if liberal reformists come to power in Iran? Do you think the other side will give up at that moment? Reform has about 15-30% support in Iran, it fluctuates dependent on what we do, but unlike Ahmadinejad's Islamic Engineers, those who do not support Reform actively oppose it. It would become an instant minority rule govt, and the other side has not only a large army but a huge network of militias. It would be a mess.

The best thing we can do for Reform in Iran is to back off. If the whole military situation cools down, and Iran no longer feels threatened, the people will eventually vote for Reform. (Remember, there's a bit of history here. The last democracy they set up was overthrown by us in the 1953 coup, and the country was pretty much run into the ground for decades. They're naturally tremendously suspicious of us.)


Mike,

Yes, very true. At the moment I'm not caring for Suleiman as leader of Egypt.

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Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:00 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well, from what I hear of the current president (I know I would spell his name wrong so I won't even try) of Iran, he's pretty extreme.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:22 AM

DREAMTROVE


Riona a chara

I wrote a long response here but it got deleted.

He's religious, but not an extremist. Both sideds feared the the other coming into power, so his Islamic engineers became the least worst option. He's far more interested in education and technology than in his religion, which he says he likes to keep separate from his politics. Sometimes he caves to more radical elements.

I think I pointed out in my now gone post that under Ahmadinejad, over two thirds of all university students are women, vs. Under his reformist opponent Mousavi, where female enrollment was basically nil.

I reentry read a reform leader saying that women didn't have enough marriage opportunities, and this was a women's rights issue. It's just really strange when looking at politics from another country. I remember arguments on this forum where the underlying problem was that Brits and americans meant different things when we said liberal or conservative.

Most of what I read about him over here is spin, we weren't as harsh on the last guy, because we wanted to invades Iran, and still do, so we have to paint it's leader as "Hitler" regardless of who he is.

ETA: Farsi is related to Celtic languages, so you should be able to spell it if you can pronounce, it's spelled phonetically, as long as you bear in mind that the j is like a zh, and the I is long like ee, and the h is a yogh.

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Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

we're all getting closer and closer to being more alike. We're more connected now than ever, more and more conversations between more and more people from around the globe. The Global Village is showing its dominance over some of these governments
I happen to agree, Pizmo, and in that respect, I think people globally are beginning to understand that they don’t have to live the way their government has made them, there are other options. From what I hear, the problem in almost all these countries is economics, as well as freedom and democracy. People want better lives.

I also agree with Rion:
Quote:

I'm not a fan of "The Global Village" thing, I don't like hemogeniety
It’s already here, to a degree...shocked the hell out of me to see McDonalds, etc., wherever we went in Europe, and that was a couple of decades ago! I wish countries could keep their culture intact, but I don’t see it happening, if more and more countries get economic freedom. People have a tendency to “want”, if nobody’s noticed...sigh... And “we’ll see” is about all any of us can say with “certainty”, as each country’s government will handle this crisis differently.

I don’t think Iran has a chance in hell. It was a combination of the protesters being nonviolent AND (perhaps more importantly) the army willing to take their side, in Egypt. Iran is such a repressive regime, with no compunction about violence, AND their military has its fingers apparently in all aspects of the society, from business on. I don’t think they’ll tolerate dissent, and if you’ve got the guns and will happily use force, there’s not much the people can do.

To me, Egypt succeeded (initially) because the army wasn't willing to open fire. That's not true in most places.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, February 16, 2011 4:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Yes, very true. At the moment I'm not caring for Suleiman as leader of Egypt.




Me neither. He won't last, I'll wager. Not too sure about Muhammed el-Baredei (sp?), but he might be a step up, at least in the eyes of lots of Egyptians. He's in good standing with the U.N., but the U.S. of course dislikes him (since he tried to delay our invasion and occupation of Iraq, of course).

Still, the idea of someone who might be a poke in the eye to the U.S., but not blatantly, outrageously, overtly an ENEMY of the U.S., might be appealing to quite a few Egyptians. It's not that they really *hate* us, it's that they like it a bit when things become "inconvenient" for us. Like Mal poking the Alliance, it may amuse them some...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, February 17, 2011 8:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Meanwhile, as goes Egypt...


... so goes Wisconsin?


Maybe democracy *IS* coming to the U.S.A.!

Quote:

Leonard Cohen wrote:



"Democracy"

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, February 18, 2011 2:48 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Meanwhile, as goes Egypt...


... so goes Wisconsin?


Maybe democracy *IS* coming to the U.S.A.!

Quote:

Leonard Cohen wrote:



"Democracy"

It's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill




Only in the mind of a big government hippie..."Democracy is coming to USA" when....the people vote in a government, the government trys to do the peoples' bidding, and the minority party flees town so a vote CANNOT take place......hilarious. What a twisted sense of reality you pot smokers have. You really should use your brain more and Obama-ize less.....

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Friday, February 18, 2011 3:54 AM

DREAMTROVE


I'm afraid Mr. Cohen go it right Some time ago:



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Friday, February 18, 2011 12:34 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Leonard Cohen: A little strange in the head, but MAN can he write--and often tell it like it is! Nice tune and backup group, too.

As to
Quote:

the government trys(sic) to do the peoples' bidding
Not even slightly. ACCURATELY: A Republican governor and his Republican-majority legislators try to take from the workers and give to business, which is NOT "the peoples' bidding" OR what they elected them to do, as well as lying and conniving about the "reason" for their doing so, in an attempt to break unionization in America.

I'd like to know; what is the difference between filibustering a bill so that no discussion on its merits can take place, much less a vote, and leaving town when your legislature has no filibuster provisions and the Governor REFUSES to discuss the bill, only demanding it be passed in a week? I'm not real clear on that one, and all we hear is right-wing politispeak and lies.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, February 18, 2011 3:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Funny that I'm the "big gubmint lib'rul" for suggesting that maybe the government shouldn't be the one deciding whether or not people can band together as employees and participate in collective bargaining.

If people can't group themselves together to work towards common goals, then are we outlawing corporations as well? Oh, wait - that same "small government" just handed out hundreds of millions of dollars to those same corporations. It's also giving its full support to those unions which just happened to back the governor in his election bid. Not that there's any payback or quid pro quo there, of course. ;)

Only KKKaney would try to make the case that the big GOP government trying to outlaw labor unions is really a win for SMALL government teabaggers like him, or that those who seek to curb that government's power are the "big government" types.

Of course, he also overlooks the fact that his beloved teabaggers also voted to reauthorize the Patriot Act. How very "small government" of them...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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