Fighting Back. by Wulfenstar

I was hoping to draw a pat-down on a trip I took in December to illustrate the type of people TSA singles out and also to illustrate just how far it could go, but no luck.

I'm still reasonably sure they single out young adults more often than other groups, human selection patterns would all but guarantee it because it's mating behaviour instinct. If you're going to molest someone I assume you either don't like them much or don't know them and think they're hot. I must not have been hot-looking enough or provocatively dressed.

I applaud the restaurant owner.

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Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:37 PM

I saw this and it made me happy.

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Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:05 PM

KANEMAN

Fantasic....next up congress members

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Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Then investment leeches - er, I mean "bankers".

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 6:47 AM

Well, folks will probably flame me for this, but yanno we been doin that a while now, and took it one step further - we refuse to assist, service or support in any way, members of the us armed forces.

That was actually a hard decision for me since till that point I did a lot of counselling for members thereof, especially what I call "decompression" counsel, when they experience serious problems trying to re-enter civilian life, something the military takes advantage of to retain personnel and thus does not offer (or if they do, an ineffective and counterproductive version) and so many of the poor bastards wind up going back to the only life they understand - there's a certain comfort in the familiar, even if it's ugly...

But past a point, one no longer has the luxury of the excuse of ignorance, and "just following orders" cuts ZERO ice with me, people - you put on and zip up the jackboot of your own free will, you take those orders, you support the regime when you KNOW it's in the wrong...
THEN YOU ARE WRONG.

And when those so-called protectors are looking at the american people as another mission, to be locked down and pacified...
THEN THEY ARE THE ENEMY.

I'm sorry, but there it is, and I know that's a hard, hard thing to have to face up to, but consider why you are so angry at the TSA, and then face the reality that what the TSA is doing to airport passengers, our military is doing TO THE REST OF THE PLANET, that and worse.

Thus, there's really only one choice to make, about that, to do any less is hypocritical.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:15 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Seems like an incredibly puny gesture to me, Wulf. So we find ways to punish the every day working schmoe instead of the man on the hill making the rules and the money? Those employees of the TSA aren't making policy here. If the restaurant were to deny service to higher up folks, that would make much more sense.

Same goes for military people, Frem. You aren't going to get us closer to out of Afghanistan or to remaking the image of the US by denying service to the grunts, it'll just make you feel good.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
If the restaurant were to deny service to higher up folks, that would make much more sense.

The restaurant would probably deny service to Janet Napolitano on down. Nothing wrong with that.

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"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:43 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Or Obama, Bush et all.

Its a small gesture, but it IS something.

I disagree with Frem about the service people tho.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 8:08 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
If the restaurant were to deny service to higher up folks, that would make much more sense.
The restaurant would probably deny service to Janet Napolitano on down. Nothing wrong with that.

imho it's better to change negative behavior through incentives and encouragement, than with punishment and anger.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 1:47 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

I disagree with Frem about the service people tho.

Why's that?

You abhor the TSA workers, even though they're "just following orders"; why don't you abhor the troops as well? They're just following orders, right? And you have big problems with those orders, so why would you treat the two groups differently?

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Wednesday, February 23, 2011 3:55 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

I disagree with Frem about the service people tho.

Why's that?

You abhor the TSA workers, even though they're "just following orders"; why don't you abhor the troops as well? They're just following orders, right? And you have big problems with those orders, so why would you treat the two groups differently?

At least he takes a stand and voices his opinion and stands by it, SO unlike you flee-baggers....run bitch run

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
imho it's better to change negative behavior through incentives and encouragement, than with punishment and anger.

Agreed.

What incentives and encouragement would you suggest for the restaurant to change the negative behavior of the TSA and DHS?

-------
"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
... so why would you treat the two groups differently?

This is a very good point.

However, I would answer that soldiers merit additional consideration:

1. TSA agents don't risk life and limb for their duties. The fact that soldiers frequently die to follow their "orders" changes the picture somewhat. It is not all pure greed or selfishness or whatnot.

2. TSA agents don't suffer devastating PTSD that often results in suicide. I am not sure I want to kick another human being when they are that down.

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"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 5:40 AM

When you play carrot and stick, SOMEONE has to bring the stick.

-F

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 5:53 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
imho it's better to change negative behavior through incentives and encouragement, than with punishment and anger.
Agreed.

What incentives and encouragement would you suggest for the restaurant to change the negative behavior of the TSA and DHS?

I don't think the restaurant has any chance of changing the TSA for one. But, for fun... "We Support The TSA Workers - Our dishwashers have shit jobs too!" Realistically: "We appreciate the TSA for what they're trying to do, it's a tough, thankless job, but thank god someone is out there trying to secure our air travel. Here's what we think would make it even better...." Negative press for the TSA is so common it's used to generate income for a lot of news outlets - it generates ad revenue disproportionally to the news value of the story - and only creates an environment where most likely nothing positive can be gained. If I were a TSA Agent I'd see that the public hates my guts, and all I'm trying to do is get a paycheck. Some people don't exactly put their best effort in when they feel everyone hates them. Some people might actually try and take it out on the people they meet in their jobs, like the public in this case, you know what I mean? "Fuck you!" "No, no, FUCK YOU!" See how easy that is?

Lists are popular, how about:
"Top 10 things we'd like to see the TSA do/Not Do"
"Top 10 ways to secure air travel without a grope."

I think if you walk in their shoes :) you might see how hard their job is, from the people working in the terminals to the people trying to figure out the whole airport security thing. I mean, have you ever worked with the American public? What a dense collection of entitled assholes :)

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I don't think the restaurant has any chance of changing the TSA for one.

Hey, you're the one who used the words "change negative behavior." Why bring it up as a "better" option if you believe the option is hopeless? If there is no chance of changing negative behavior, then why *not* just let people who don't like them boycott them?

The rest of your suggestions are cool. I like them, despite their not having a chance of working.

I have no sympathy for TSA. Nobody forced them into a job that routinely humiliates normal citizens. In my view, the jobs have no inherent merit and shouldn't exist in the first place. If the prices were equal, I would take a plane that hasn't been inspected by them over a plane that has--any day of the week. And put my kids on it too. It is too bad the American public doesn't have a choice about that.

We'd like to come back to the States for a visit. But we can't live with the unacceptable options offered by the TSA. So yanno, their asshole-ness affects me personally. We're stuck abroad until we can save up enough for general aviation flights.

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"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 8:36 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

At least he takes a stand and voices his opinion and stands by it,

Well, at least until someone asks a question that forces him to examine those beliefs. Then he tends to vanish, not stand by a damned thing.

And he's still leagues better than a douche like you.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 8:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Actually I stand by my beliefs... just people like you tend to scream and leave no room for discussion.

So. Back to the subject at hand.

TSA agents have a choice in doing their "work". Their work happens to be violating the 4th amendment, AND the privacy of American citizens.

Soldiers "work" is to kill the enemies of our citizens. Or, more often, grunt work. Like repairing humvees, ironing shirts, and cooking.

But, when called on, they are expected to do their job, put their life on the line, protect each other and in the broader scheme... all of us.

Big difference.

So i give more respect to the soldier than I do to the TSA agent.

Same goes for the BATFE.

One seeks to protect us, one is an agent of the government.

Respect the one, not the other.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 8:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Read the article, but not all the posts. Again this is simple to me; TSA agents aren't responsible for the decisions, and going against them or refusing to do their job would do no more good than get them fired; there are enough people out there looking for work (and from what I hear, there's not much training to prepare them for that job), so they can't do anything.

Refusing service to a group of people is no different in its way from refusing service to a race of people, etc. It's small-minded, does NOTHING to solve the situation and is a petty reaction to the problem. I'm sorry for those agents; from what I hear, many of them don't like doing what they have to...so they should all quit their jobs and be replaced by others who are willing to do the job to survive? How is that logical?

Go after those MAKING the decisions..."just doing their job" doesn't work in some cases, but I see no alternative for them in this case.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 9:02 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So, its better to just go along to get along?

Turn a blind eye to what you see?

Not do anything?

If Bush or another Republican was in the White House... you would be ALL for denying service to TSA memebers.

This isn't a left/right issue. Its about doing, or NOT doing, what is right.

You for warrantless wiretaps? Serves the "common good", right? besides, what about all those agents that NEED the job?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 9:52 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Actually I stand by my beliefs... just people like you tend to scream and leave no room for discussion.

Liar.

Several times I, and others have asked you simple questions - and you turn tail.

You've even started threads inviting questions, and then ran like a bitch when asked something that made you look inward.

You are, at least intellectually speaking, a rank coward.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:00 AM

Quote:
One seeks to protect us, one is an agent of the government.

There are probably "good" TSA agents and "good" cops and "good" US soldiers, but they ALL work for the government.

Some of them are just matters of circumstance, some of them really are sympathetic. But don't explain it away or justify it. They get paid money to do what the government tells them to. If you don't like that, figure out a way to get them on your side.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:06 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
If Bush or another Republican was in the White House... you would be ALL for denying service to TSA memebers.

Bullshit; "we" would be decrying it as loudly as anyone. Bush did FAR more to curtail our civil rights than merely having TSA agents search people!

But of course, you're not partial to one party or the other, as you so frequently claim, are you? Dems are screaming about the TSA policies just as loudly and often as Republicans; how do you justify your claim that "if it were Bush in office" essentially "we'd" feel differently? Nonsensical statement.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:08 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

EXCEPT... now that THEY are in office.. we get naked scanners.

Explain that one.

I mean, if your people are all against this stuff, why is it getting worse?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:14 AM

Partisanism.

If she says she doesn't like the TSA, presumably she also doesn't like the scanners, Wulf.

Actually, she was one of the people I discussed the "expose those guys for the sleazy scumballs they are" scheme I mentioned above, and she was all for it.

Obama is an asshat, and an authoritarian. Or he's a puppet, controlled by the Clintons, who are authoritarians. Either way, Obama sucks. Make further comparisons to other government administrations as necessary. But let's not derail the thread from our extreme irritation over the rights we've had curtailed in the last ten to twenty years.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
EXCEPT... now that THEY are in office.. we get naked scanners.

Explain that one.

I mean, if your people are all against this stuff, why is it getting worse?

Obama is continuing the bad Bush policies, no argument there. He didn't put them in place, however, and it's almost impossible to get any President to do away with things that give them power. So he's in the wrong, but no moreso than Bush; it's partisanship to try and put all this on Obama.

The Bush Administration created the policies you claim to hate...do you REALLY think they would have been lessened by McCain? Or might there be even more destruction of our civil rights by now with McCain/Palin in office? If you don't think it's okay to look back at what Bush created, you might consider where we'd be if Bush's policies were inherited by McCain...just a thought. Rather than blaming "us"--again, assuming we're in favor of this stuff without checking the facts.

Face it, for all your cries that you're nonpartisan and angry with both sides, you consistently blame Dems for everything bad, and totally ignore the realities. Stop pretending otherwise! Of course you won't, but the fact is:

"Our people" are against the TSA stuff as much as ANYONE, so your demand for an explanation is fallacious and your assumption, as usual, partisan. Byte is absolutely right; we've had this discussion, but that means nothing to you; you need to hate us and "our" people.

My argument, not that you noticed, is that the problem isn't the TSA employees, and they shouldn't be punished for the situation they're in (as well as the fact that discriminating against any one group is wrong); the problem is with those imposing the policies.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 10:39 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Nicki, you are deflecting and you know it.

But enough partisan bs.

Lets not serve any government monkey.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 11:04 AM

Yay. :)

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 11:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Not deflecting at all; responding to your need to blame Dems for everything, as you just did.

What the TSA is doing is wrong, and ineffective to boot. There is no argument there.

The question of whether it's right to take out our displeasure on employees is what I'm addressing about the issue; I think it's also ineffective to blame and discriminate against the TSA employees, as it will have NO effect on the situation...TPTB in the TSA don't give a shit whether their employees are discriminated against or not.

So yes: The TSA is totally in the wrong.
No: I don't think taking out our anger on the employees is right or does any good.

You wanna put something up about an EFFECTIVE protest against the TSA policies, there's something to discuss. This shows nothing.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 11:41 AM

I'm just spiteful I guess.

To me, this isn't at all the same thing as not serving someone with a certain skin tone, religion, or orientation in your establishment. A job, even if you're poor, is something more of a choice than the way you were born or how you were raised.

Although, side note: I do hope eventually we get away from needing laws about that kinda thing. I have no delusions that we'll ever stop people hating on other people for differences, but we can stop violence. And part of me thinks eventually a business SHOULD be able to kick costumers out, because of private property rights and possibly speech/expression, and if the owner does it for bigot/jerk reasons I'd like to imagine they'll go out of business as a consequence.

Anyway. TSA. If they're decent people and they don't like being hated, then maybe they shouldn't enforce policy people hate. If they get fired, then they stood by their principles and I bet people would support them and call them heroes. If something is wrong but you're getting paid to do it anyway, take a stand and don't do it.

I'm going to Godwin here, but imagine if the Nazis acted with personal integrity (and yes, I know lots of them were forced into service). Maybe things would be a lot different.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 11:51 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
If they get fired, then they stood by their principles and I bet people would support them and call them heroes.

It's a pretty tough economic situation to ask this of people, and getting verbal support and being called heroes doesn't put food on the table.

It's not exactly like they're putting people in camps; they're being told what to do in hopes of lessening terrorism--no doubt some of them even believe they ARE doing so, others may not feel it's a serious enough inconvenience to make a cause out of it. People tend to focus on their own lives and how to support themselves, not on fighting a (useless) battle against TPTB, that's pretty natural.

Obviously it's not the same as racial discrimination; but there's a connection and I still find it wrong.

Yes, everyone says "if the Nazis hadn't done their jobs"...but it's a helluvalot more complex than that, in this case and even in the case of the Nazis. It's easy to tell others what they should or shouldn't do, but until I've walked in their shoes, I don't think I'll go that way.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 11:57 AM

No, I meant MONETARY support as well as verbal and the hero treatment. I meant people saying, "damn, you're all right, way for you and the other TSA agents who stood up for the rights of average Americans to your employers. Hey, while you're on strike, do you need a place to stay?"

Because in some worker strikes, this has actually happened. And never has there needed to be a worker strike standing up against bass ackward policy of administrative douchebags more than right here and right now.

So if a restaurant wants to refuse to serve TSA workers until they decide they want to redeem themselves, who'm I to say they're going about it the wrong way?

Side note: I've walked in those shoes and I've been prepared to walk out of my job in order to stay true to my principles. It worked out. So for your saying it's really more complicated than that, I say, no, it really, REALLY isn't. These guys aren't even at gun point like a lot of the forcibly conscripted Nazis were. So either they have integrity, or they don't. If they do, I expect them to act like it. If they don't, they get no sympathy from me.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:07 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I think your ideas are lovely, but I don't think they fit the real world as it is now. I don't think those protesting would be supported as much as you do, if at all, and while some would call them heroes, I'd bet an equal number would call them traitors. These policies were set up in response to public fears; they don't work, but there are still many, many people who "feel" safer for them...probably more of those and the others who don't give a damn as there are those of us against the policies.

As of the beginning of this year:

Quote:
In the poll, 78% of respondents said they approved of using the scanners, and 67% said they are comfortable being examined by one. Eighty-four percent said the machines would help stop terrorists from carrying explosives onto airplanes. The survey was taken Jan. 5-6 of 542 adults who have flown at least twice in the past year.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-01-11-security-poll_N.htm

Currently:

Quote:

Americans have differing views on two potentially inconvenient and invasive practices that airports could implement to uncover potential terrorist attacks, a new CBS News poll shows. Americans overwhelmingly approve of the use of full-body digital x-ray machines - a new technology in use at some airports in the U.S.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html

Any way you look at it, we're not in the majority; and this is ONE PERSON'S feelings being put into practice, not a group of people protesting something they believe is wrong. It's obvious he's angry; he's using that anger to discriminate. I wouldn't stop him voicing his opinion or, given this is his establishment, putting his views into practice, I just think he is in the wrong.

I also don't see quitting a job because of the current policies as worth it, on balance. While in my opinion pretty useless, the TSA procedures aren't viewed by probably the majority of the country as such extreme government interference as many of us view them.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:17 PM

You're quoting a CBS poll? Niki... I don't think I have to point out the problem here, do I?

"I'd bet an equal number would call them traitors."

Who gives a damn? Everyone single one of us on this board has been called traitor, no doubt MULTIPLE times. But that doesn't change there are those who would still agree with us, and support us for doing the right thing.

You out of all of us know how altruism can come from unexpected places.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:39 PM

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45531.html#ixzz1EuyVXCYl

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I was refuting your argument that they would be called heroes and would be supported. You made the argument; I disagree. If you didn't give a damn, why use that as an argument?

I recognize altruism comes from unexpected places. But what I've seen is altruism in serious emergencies, against serious wrongs, and I don't think this issue comes under either heading. It's wrong; but there are so MANY truly awful wrongs, it's not on my radar as much as many of them.

You don't like my source? There are many:

Quote:

Nearly two-thirds of those surveyed in an ABC News/Washington Post poll said they supported the Transportation Security Administration’s use of full-body X-ray scans. The poll found 64 percent of Americans saying they approved of the use of full-body X-rays by the TSA, while 32 percent said they were opposed.

Quote:
Two USA Today/Gallup polls inside of three days show the American public favors the use of fully body scanners as well as profiling passengers that fit the demographics of known terrorists.

Nearly three days ago, polls showed that 78 percent of Americans approved the use of fully body scans at airports. The scans, which either use millimeter wave technology or backscatter technology, can peer underneath passengers' clothes to identify contraband they may be carrying near their body.

http://www.securitymanagement.com/news/polls-show-americans-support-ha
rsher-aviation-security-measures-006646

I'm sure there are others, I'm just not willing to spend the time hunting them down. I'm hoping Gallup is good enough for you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:15 PM

All of your sources have a vested interest in paying lip service to the security measures. That's what my point was.

"security management dot com"? That's an unbiased source? Really.

Quote:
If you didn't give a damn, why use that as an argument?

Huh? I was referring to being called "traitor."

?

Your behaviour and arguments are a little inexplicable right now. Maybe we should take a break.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:27 PM

I've walked many a mile in worse shoes.

In fact, one REASON I am poor is BECAUSE I *refuse* to work for/with the alphabet goons, cause as a security specialist and behavioral profiler down at DTW I would be making FIVE TIMES what I make now, and one of the supervisors down there who isn't a complete asshat is always on my case about it too.

But I would rather fucking starve, than put the jackboot on again - remember also, I HAVE worn it, people, what exactly do you think they wanted me to DO when they were gonna send us to Nicaragua, eh ?
You really think, being a misanthropic nihilist at the time, that was gonna be the first time I did dirty work for "the man" ?
You think I don't PAY, ever so dearly for it, every time all my ghosts come to haunt me in the wee hours when I cannot sleep ?

No, I have no sympathy for them, none what so ever - "just doing my job" or "just following orders" cuts ZERO ice with me, especially since without dickheads who DO "just follow orders" oppression CAN NOT HAPPEN.

You fucking enable it, then you fucking deserve it.
Sorry, but on that point, I will not move.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I just think he is in the wrong.

That's fine. You can think that. Boycott him if you don't like it, right?

I think he's cool. I'd do the same if I were him.

-------
"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You fucking enable it, then you fucking deserve it.
Sorry, but on that point, I will not move.

This is making me think hard.

-------
"It is not my thorns that defend me. It is my perfume," says the rose. -- Paul Claudel

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:50 PM

Well, I said *I* wouldn't move - doesn't mean other people can't, doesn't mean they gotta agree with me...

But me, personally, that's my stand, my line in the sand - whether one would stand with me or no, is up to them individually.

-F

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 1:54 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.

Just thought this clip was relevant.

Socialist and unashamed about it.

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Thursday, February 24, 2011 2:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm not keen on what the TSA is doing either, they've gone too far and I don't like it, fourth amendment and all. A quick trip through the metal detector doesn't seem so bad to me, but full body scanners, no way, not acceptable.

No matter what you guys say I will respect our troops/warriors/soldiers, as Cantt, Pizmo and Wulf are saying. You can call me whatever you want but I'm not changing my mind anytime soon. With what they are willing to go through I owe them my thanks, respect and kindness.

I agree with Niki on the point that we should go after the higher ups who tell the TSA workers to do all this, they're the ones who make the orders. But I also agree with Frem/Byte that we do at least have some choice in what job we take and those TSA people did choose that job and could stop working there if their principles were being violated.

As for the resturant, I suppose they have the right to do that, after all working for the TSA is a choice unlike skincolor or ancestry. I don't think I'd take the same stance of not serving them, but I suppose the resturant owners do have the right to do it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, February 25, 2011 7:50 AM

Quote:
If enough of us follow suit, if we refuse to deal with the TSA’s goons professionally and socially, the agency will find fewer and fewer deviants willing to don its brown-sorry, its blue shirts.

American colonists relied on a similar tactic in the 1760’s and 1770’s: tarring and feathering. Though we tend to dismiss it as a quaint practical joke, tarring and feathering was actual, physical torture. The boiling tar severely burned its target; it could blind him if it hit his eyes and permanently injure those areas the TSA gropes.

Not surprisingly, when tarring and feathering became the cost of taking the King’s shilling, men thought twice before doing so. But we need not rip up our pillows nor haul out the tar-pots. We can accomplish the same thing with our boycott – don’t fly the commercial airlines, for any reason at any time – and ostracism.

If you own a company, refuse to buy from or sell to anyone affiliated with the TSA. Do your competitors deal with the agency? Advertise the fact that you don’t.
-Becky Akers.

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Friday, February 25, 2011 8:37 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
All of your sources have a vested interest in paying lip service to the security measures.

Byte, are you therefore saying that the polls they took are incorrect? I dont quite get the point...whatever the source, it seems to me the percentages have a certain amount of validity. I don't see them putting up figures that are patently false, given how easily they could be found to be so. I think they're right, at least close enough to indicate that most Americans are in favor of "feeling" that the measures make them safer.

Just look at the outcry every time there's a "foiled" terrorist plot...Americans want security, like all people their first thought is security, their second is their rights, that's why it works so well. I'm not saying what they think is RIGHT...exactly the opposite...I'm saying that most Americans approve of the measures. It's stupid, it doesn't keep us safer, but that's the way it is.

Most of these people don't travel by air, either, bear in mind...things don't seem so bad if you don't experience them personally, the concept can seem quite different. I'm just pointing out that, to most people, this is a minor or nonexistent issue, that's all.

Lessee, isn't it Wulf who's always saying "do something personally", take a gun to the biggies, etc.? So if you're going to make a statement, make it where it MIGHT do some good, like with those DECIDING the protocols, not with their employees. That's all. To do as this guy is doing is just pettiness and, in a way, using HIS power to take his anger out on people who aren't making the decisions.

I just flew to New Orleans and back with a layover each time. The people I dealt with were very nice, I refuse to buy that they're "goons", sorry. They have a job; some have had their jobs for years and years, they're human beings trapped between a rock and a hard place. If you have that job, you have the choice; if you don't, I don't think it's right to condemn them for not making the same choice I would.

Just as an aside, what would I do? Lessee...I wouldn't want to give up a job at this time in our economy, especially if I were trained for this job and had years on it, seniority, salary, etc. I would know that the reason I quit would make getting a job in that sector harder, if not impossible. I would probably continue with the job, and utilize the only freedom I have in that situation, which would be to look each person I had to search straight in the eye and apologize for the intrusion. I would also express my disagreement with the policy and encourage those who were obviously bothered by it to write to the TSA or their legislators.

That might well get me fired, but it would be what I would do and my conscience would be okay with it. I would probably get unemployment benefits, given I'd be fired for expressing my viewpoint while doing my job appropriately. I have no desire to be a martyr in a case such as this in this economic climate, but I'll have my say and register my disagreement. That's just my opinion.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, February 25, 2011 9:18 AM

Eating the propaganda candy. Polls are skewed however they want them to be, and they use polls to bolster belief in the spin using peer pressure and appearance of majority.

You know it's wrong, and I know it's wrong, so why are you taking the media's word? That there's no one who feels otherwise and would support us? You see evidence here otherwise. Majority and minority doesn't matter.

The majority is too complacent and ambivalent to care either way. They're just responding how they're told to answer. They're told to be afraid. Excuse me if I sniff at fearmongering polls.

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Friday, February 25, 2011 9:32 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

To say all polls are skewed to the point where SUCH a majority is shown to approve of the tactics, in several polls, isn't something I'm willing to disregard out of hand. And I have a certain amount of faith (as much as I do any pollsters) in Gallup.

I think it's going too far into conspiracy to say these are completely fake, and given "The majority is too complacent and ambivalent to care either way", to me the polls are probably somewhat on point. I look around, in this case I could only find those polls I referenced; if I could find polls showing otherwise, I would have posted them. I'm not "taking the media's word" totally, but I think it's reflective to a degree, and I don't see the media as COMPLETELY controlled by the government.

Yes; I clearly said people are told to be afraid and react out of that; I was merely making the point that a lot of Americans don't care the way we here do. And to use US is kind of illogical; we are a segment of society unique in our opinions--while we reflect society very well on some things, I think our attitudes don't reflect society in general at ALL on others, and I think this is one of those. We're not a reasonable cross-section of America, here.

I never said there weren't those opposed to the practices, I merely said that public sentiment is such that at THIS time, people look more for security than their rights, and until that changes, there won't be enough people protesting the procedures to make any changes.

My main argument is that this guy is taking out his own feelings on people who may well not deserve it, and that if he was serious about the cause, he'd find another way to deal with it. That's all. You KNOW I find the method abhorrent, I'm not arguing otherwise. Just trying to say I think what he's doing is more a reflection of his personal anger than any illogical protest, and there are better ways to actually PROTEST the policies than discriminate against TSA employees. It's just my opinion.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, February 25, 2011 9:41 AM

Quote:
To say all polls are skewed to the point where SUCH a majority is shown to approve of the tactics, in several polls, isn't something I'm willing to disregard out of hand. And I have a certain amount of faith (as much as I do any pollsters) in Gallup.

I think it's going too far into conspiracy to say these are completely fake

You and I are very different people.

Quote:
there won't be enough people protesting the procedures to make any changes.

Sometimes you can't wait for there to be a majority to start la Resistance. Sometimes it's enough to have pre-existing structures for people to turn to when the tide begins to change and the lies become obvious.

Otherwise, warmongers and fearmongers are never punished.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:18 AM

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 3:13 AM