Make no mistake, this is a war of the rich against everyone else by SignyM

No one is working hard to make YOU poor.People are working hard to make themselves rich, I'll give you that much.

The real war is between taxpayers and non-taxpayers/public sector unions that are crushing this nation's future.....You should think more and Obama-ize less.......Flee-bagger.

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Friday, February 25, 2011 5:39 PM

QUESTIONABLEQUESTIONALITY

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Funny, but the tax dollars all seem to head in YOUR direction, oh skanky Wall Street welfare queen!

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Friday, February 25, 2011 5:53 PM

Kane, I see you have corrupted yet another seemingly normal poster, my hat is off.

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Friday, February 25, 2011 6:26 PM

QUESTIONABLEQUESTIONALITY

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, I make an exception for Kaneman. I hope to make it cry and go away. Otherwise, I'm quite sane.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh, I make an exception for Kaneman. I hope to make it cry and go away. Otherwise, I'm quite sane.

I have a sneaking suspicion that your attempts to make kaneman 1) Cry and 2) go away will end in failure. Sociopaths have no emotion.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 3:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Possibly. But I noticed that once Kaneman is called names, it often moderates its behavior. Maybe it stays off the sauce for a bit before posting.

Anyway, back to the original idea: I really don't have a lot of time to post all kinds of links, so I'm going to have to go with a bare-ass opinion. This is something I've posted before, but I'll post it again and again so that when it happens I can say I told you so, and you (I'm looking at YOU, Wulf and DT and Tony!) won't be able to say you weren't warned ahead of time

For roughly the past 30 years, our government has been co-opted by big money. The powers behind the throne... Goldman Sachs and the rest of the Wall Street banksters, the US Chamber of Commerce, insurances, the military industrial complex ... any entity with more than a couple of pennies to rub together has been pushing for one thing, and one thing only: to get as much money in their hands as possible. THAT IS THE NATURE OF BUSINESS, Libertarian fantasies notwithstanding. Charge what the market will bear. Minimize costs by paying starvation wages wherever possible. Destroy the competition. Maximum profit. Damn the economic consequences and full greed ahead.

We've all been sold a bill of goods: all gubmint is bad, all taxes are bad, all wealth transfer is bad, all regulation is bad. Business makes jobs, gubmint takes them away. (As if it isn't business that ships jobs overseas!) Welfare for the rich. Over those years, the divide between rich and poor has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, beyond even 1929 proportions. And what did that get us?????

Not "growth", but the biggest economic crash since 1929.

Did you notice? Have you been paying attention? Does it require repetition?

The biggest economic crash since 1929.

That's what trickle-down gets us, and I've been saying it since before the crash ("Let's party like it's 1929" was my tagline until about July 2008) and I'll say it again.

But instead of trying to improve the economy as a whole, government did the bidding of big finance: shoveled money at Wall Street. And now the Tea Party wants to take away the remainder of any wealth transfer, and make the job complete: welfare but only for the rich.

If you are a Libertarian or a Tea partier, you have been sorely misguided But make no mistake: YOU may be misguided, but the Koch brothers and the rest of the controlling elite are not. THEY know what they want out of the system, and they will use anything... ANYTHING... to destroy all unions and any ameliorating effects of government. "Freedom", 2nd Amendment rights, "anti-terrorism", "anti-abortion", racial prejudice, it's all grist for their mill. They throw out chicken feed and bits of paper to distract the stupid public while they go about methodically transferring wealth and power into THEIR hands.

Now, here comes the part that really matters: Continuing "money for the wealthy" (AKA trickle-down, altho nobody uses that discredited title anymore) will only result in a second recession, if not an outright depression. And that will only result in fascism... which is the direction we're already heading... unless you wake up to the reality of both the political situation AND the inexorable reality of economics. Making a small group of people very very wealthy ONLY gets you an economy like Mexico's. There is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, no brighter and glorious future, only poverty and powerlessness, and that is the direction you're heading in, in the name of "freedom".

I made this prediction about six month ago, and I'm making it again: We will experience a worse downturn unless we stop shooting ourselves in the face.

BTW- If you didn't know: The first targets of fascists in Germany were the "socialists" and trade unions. And you may have noticed there is no government intrusion that's too much for Kaneman and Rappy. Patriot Act? YOU BET! Destroying the legislative process? NO PROBLEM! Just remember, DT and Tony and Wulf et al... there is no freedom unless it's for EVERYBODY. Even blacks, union members, and the dreaded public employee, who everyone is scapegoating instead of the banks which broke the pensions in the first place.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 3:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bump ahead of zit trash

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 3:50 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bump ahead of Zit trash

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by QuestionableQuestionality:
Kane, I see you have corrupted yet another seemingly normal poster, my hat is off.

Hilarious. Line her up. Put her right under Kwicko on my list. After all the ignore the troll garbage I always find it Hilarious that I can turn anyone into a foul-mouthed idiot. I win another. Just another experiment. I can't be ignored or beat. I have an uncanny nack off pulling mental midgets into the gutter, ruining thier on-line peer respect, and exposing them for the fucking monkey cocks they are. I am a legend. Don't believe me? Go to:

www.stormfront.org

LOL hilarious.

.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 4:18 AM

"Possibly. But I noticed that once Kaneman is called names, it often moderates its behavior. Maybe it stays off the sauce for a bit before posting."

LOl ...Hilarious!!! Man, you are stupid.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 4:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Possibly. But I noticed that once Kaneman is called names, it often moderates its behavior. Maybe it stays off the sauce for a bit before posting.

Anyway, back to the original idea: I really don't have a lot of time to post all kinds of links, so I'm going to have to go with a bare-ass opinion. This is something I've posted before, but I'll post it again and again so that when it happens I can say I told you so, and you (I'm looking at YOU, Wulf and DT and Tony!) won't be able to say you weren't warned ahead of time

For roughly the past 30 years, our government has been co-opted by big money. The powers behind the throne... Goldman Sachs and the rest of the Wall Street banksters, the US Chamber of Commerce, insurances, the military industrial complex ... any entity with more than a couple of pennies to rub together has been pushing for one thing, and one thing only: to get as much money in their hands as possible. THAT IS THE NATURE OF BUSINESS, Libertarian fantasies notwithstanding. Charge what the market will bear. Minimize costs by paying starvation wages wherever possible. Destroy the competition. Maximize profit. Damn the economic consequences and full greed ahead.

We've all been sold a bill of goods: all gubmint is bad, all taxes are bad, all wealth transfer is bad, all regulation is bad. Business makes jobs, gubmint takes them away. (As if it isn't business that ships jobs overseas!) Welfare for the rich. Over those years, the divide between rich and poor has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, beyond even 1929 proportions. And what did that get us?????

Not "growth", but the biggest economic crash since 1929.

Did you notice? Have you been paying attention? Does it require repetition?

The biggest economic crash since 1929.

That's what trickle-down gets us, and I've been saying it since before the crash ("Let's party like it's 1929" was my tagline until about July 2008) and I'll say it again.

But instead of trying to improve the economy as a whole, government did the bidding of big finance: shoveled money at Wall Street. And now the Tea Party wants to take away the remainder of any wealth transfer, and make the job complete: welfare but only for the rich.

If you are a Libertarian or a Tea partier, you have been sorely misguided. But make no mistake: YOU may be misguided, but the Koch brothers and the rest of the controlling elite are not. THEY know what they want out of the system, and they will use anything... ANYTHING... to destroy all unions and any ameliorating effects of government. "Freedom", rugged individualism, 2nd Amendment rights, "anti-terrorism", "anti-abortion", racial prejudice, it's all grist for their mill. They throw out chicken feed and bits of paper to distract the stupid public while they go about methodically transferring wealth and power into THEIR hands.

Now, here comes the part that really matters: Continuing "money for the wealthy" (AKA trickle-down, altho nobody uses that discredited title anymore) will only result in a second recession, if not an outright depression. And that will only result in fascism... which is the direction we're already heading... unless you wake up to the reality of both the political situation AND the inexorable reality of economics. Making a small group of people very very wealthy ONLY gets you an economy like Mexico's. There is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, no brighter and glorious future, only poverty and powerlessness, and that is the direction you're heading in, in the name of "freedom".

I made this prediction about six month ago, and I'm making it again: We will experience a worse downturn unless we stop shooting ourselves in the face. Don't be a stupid public.

BTW- If you didn't know: The first targets of fascists in Germany were the "socialists" and trade unions. And you may have noticed there is no government intrusion that's too much for Kaneman and Rappy. Patriot Act? YOU BET! Destroying the legislative process? NO PROBLEM! Just remember, DT and Tony and Wulf et al... there is no freedom unless it's for EVERYBODY. Even blacks, union members, and the dreaded public employee, who everyone is scapegoating instead of the banks which broke the pensions in the first place.

ETA, I see Kaneman is three-handed. It can drink, masturbate, and type at the same time! Just don't get those hands mixed up, Kanie, otherwise your keyboard will get gooey and you'll get alcohol on your private parts. Or you'll wind up drinking poo and getting alcohol on your keyboard.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 5:10 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bump ahead of Zit trash

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 5:40 AM

Come to me lil jedi come......lol

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 5:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bump. Not to be buried in the trash

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 5:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Possibly. But I noticed that once Kaneman is called names, it often moderates its behavior. Maybe it stays off the sauce for a bit before posting.

Anyway, back to the original idea: I really don't have a lot of time to post all kinds of links, so I'm going to have to go with a bare-ass opinion. This is something I've posted before, but I'll post it again and again so that when it happens I can say I told you so, and you (I'm looking at YOU, Wulf and DT and Tony!) won't be able to say you weren't warned ahead of time

For roughly the past 30 years, our government has been co-opted by big money. The powers behind the throne... Goldman Sachs and the rest of the Wall Street banksters, the US Chamber of Commerce, insurances, the military industrial complex ... any entity with more than a couple of pennies to rub together has been pushing for one thing, and one thing only: to get as much money in their hands as possible. THAT IS THE NATURE OF BUSINESS, Libertarian fantasies notwithstanding. Charge what the market will bear. Minimize costs by paying starvation wages wherever possible. Destroy the competition. Maximize profit. Damn the economic consequences and full greed ahead.

We've all been sold a bill of goods: all gubmint is bad, all taxes are bad, all wealth transfer is bad, all regulation is bad. Business makes jobs, gubmint takes them away. (As if it isn't business that ships jobs overseas!) Welfare for the rich. Over those years, the divide between rich and poor has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger, beyond even 1929 proportions. And what did that get us?????

Not "growth", but the biggest economic crash since 1929.

Did you notice? Have you been paying attention? Does it require repetition?

The biggest economic crash since 1929.

That's what trickle-down gets us, and I've been saying it since before the crash ("Let's party like it's 1929" was my tagline until about July 2008) and I'll say it again.

But instead of trying to improve the economy as a whole, government did the bidding of big finance: shoveled money at Wall Street. And now the Tea Party wants to take away the remainder of any wealth transfer, and make the job complete: welfare but only for the rich.

If you are a Libertarian or a Tea partier, you have been sorely misguided. But make no mistake: YOU may be misguided, but the Koch brothers and the rest of the controlling elite are not. THEY know what they want out of the system, and they will use anything... ANYTHING... to destroy all unions and any ameliorating effects of government. "Freedom", rugged individualism, 2nd Amendment rights, "anti-terrorism", "anti-abortion", racial prejudice, it's all grist for their mill. They throw out chicken feed and bits of paper to distract the stupid public while they go about methodically transferring wealth and power into THEIR hands.

Now, here comes the part that really matters: Continuing "money for the wealthy" (AKA trickle-down, altho nobody uses that discredited title anymore) will only result in a second recession, if not an outright depression. And that will only result in fascism... which is the direction we're already heading... unless you wake up to the reality of both the political situation AND the inexorable reality of economics. Making a small group of people very very wealthy ONLY gets you an economy like Mexico's. There is no pot of gold at the end of this rainbow, no brighter and glorious future, only poverty and powerlessness, and that is the direction you're heading in, in the name of "freedom".

I made this prediction about six month ago, and I'm making it again: We will experience a worse downturn unless we stop shooting ourselves in the face. Don't be a stupid public.

BTW- If you didn't know: The first targets of fascists in Germany were the "socialists" and trade unions. And you may have noticed there is no government intrusion that's too much for Kaneman and Rappy. Patriot Act? YOU BET! Destroying the legislative process? NO PROBLEM! Just remember, DT and Tony and Wulf et al... there is no freedom unless it's for EVERYBODY. Even blacks, union members, and the dreaded public employee, who everyone is scapegoating instead of the banks which broke the pensions in the first place.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 6:00 AM

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 6:14 AM

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 7:39 AM

Just read an article that belongs on this thread.

Eleven charts that explain everything that's wrong with America.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-c
hart-graph

I think it explains a lot. But "everything" is a bit ambitious.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 7:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yeah, not everything, but quite a few things.

What it DOESN'T explain is how peeps like Wulf can buy into a system like this and call it "freedom".

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 10:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
What it DOESN'T explain is how peeps like Wulf can buy into a system like this and call it "freedom".

Amazing, ain't it? Kane's not worth even reading; you know what's coming, so why bother? Note how pleased he is when he gets attention and his clearly-explained goal. But there might have been hope for people like Wulf. Sadly...

By the way, you forgot how, ever since it started, the rich have been trying to do away with Social Security and Medicare. Oh, and deregulation of EVERYTHING. They have had pretty much the same agenda for decades, but an awful lot of people either can't see it or are deliberately blind. It's too bad; they end up voting against their own interests, but what can you do?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Just read an article that belongs on this thread.

Eleven charts that explain everything that's wrong with America.
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-c
hart-graph

I think it explains a lot. But "everything" is a bit ambitious.

My record of disagreeing with motherjones remains untainted ;)

I agree with Sig's header here, as long as we can correctly define the rich. Only two of these graphs hit it, but both get the data off.

Top wage earners are not "the rich." the rich are rich, ergo, they don't need to work. If you need to work, you're not rich. That the thing about ruling classes. They work, sure, but not for wages. If you're a wage earner you are working for a master, and that is why you are getting paid. It is why you owe taxes. Taxes are of course a conspiracy to keep the slaves and indentured servants from becoming masters.

Under slavery, there were always slave drivers holding the whip who were themselves slaves. They *felt* big and powerful because they were holding the whip, and not being whipped. This didn't change the reality that they were still slaves.

If a member of the rich were to work, it would be to increase their power base, in a think tank, or through their social circles of the halls of power or in the position that they had positioned themselves in to manipulate for more power.

If the rich were to earn money it would be interest on stocks or bonds or dividends or most likely, derivatives, and more than likely overseas, and if any of these would have taxes owing on them, they'd be nominal.

The rich don't work for wages.

Taxing the rich is submitting to a talking point of a govt. Who wants more power to curb the earning power of the people. Any such power would not generate revenue, that would be absurd, since TPTB decide by fiat how much money there is. All it will do is alter e kinds of behaviors that the citizenry can use to get out of slavery.

If someone finds a way to get out of slavery through some abuse of the system, then I say "bravo."

However, there are, as I said, a couple things I have to agree with:

1. CEO salaries. The ratio of CEO salaries to workers salaries in the US, which is really over 500:1, is unparalleled in the ddveloped world, or perhaps, the world. This is because the new CEOs are scions of ruling families, not actual experts, and this mechanism is necessary to acid heretidary wealth depletion, one of the glaring flaws in the underpinnings of our economic system.

2. The disparity of wealth. This is being manipulated to bring this gap wider, and favoring old wealth over new wealth to an extreme degree, with one notable exception to note in a second. This does nothing but galvanize a ruling class as a land owning moneyed elite.

The exception is derivatives, and derivative issuing power is being handed by the ruling classes to themselves. The last I read, the richest 1% held 90% of the wealth, until you included derivatives, and then they held 99% of the wealth.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by QuestionableQuestionality:
Kane, I see you have corrupted yet another seemingly normal poster, my hat is off.

Don't be ridiculous - you were never "normal".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The rich don't work for wages.

Good point. They don't pay taxes either.

Perhaps the best way to make the distinctions is to divide the classes into the owners and the owned. Amongst the owned, there is a small, wealthy class that serves as a convenient target and buffer between the owners and the owned.

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Saturday, February 26, 2011 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The rich don't work for wages.
Good point. They don't pay taxes either.

Perhaps the best way to make the distinctions is to divide the classes into the owners and the owned. Amongst the owned, there is a small, wealthy class that serves as a convenient target and buffer between the owners and the owned.

Well said.

And yes, they don't pay taxes because taxes are on wages, ot wealth. This helps prevent the creation of new wealth.

And politicians love to redirect our anger at this class because they are not the ruling class, and so this once again has us attacking each other, the less successful of we the people attacking the more successful of we the people, thus helping us fail.

This buffer is an illusory class barrier between the professional working class and the general working class.

Years ago, while analyzing why I failed to accomplish what the rich people I knew could accomplish, I went through a number of standard explanations

First. That they had money. There were several holes in this theory, most notable were two, that they often accomplished it without spending a lot of money, and that many of those with money had little in the way of disposable income. This made me gnaw over the concept of rich a little, but I went on to the second cliche...

Second, that they had connections. While this was true, they seemed to succeed whether they used their connections or not, and with whom they had powerful connections didn't seem to determine the direction of their success. Also, something was involved in keeping those connections.

So, I studied more closely, and what struck me was how they used their time. I tried to emulate it. They spent a fair amount of time entertaining, and a fair amount preparing to entertain. They also spent a lot of time homing skills, social skills and skills they would use towards what they were trying to accomplish.

I found I couldn't do this, because I didn't have enough time. I figured I was missing something, so I studied some more.

The rich used other people's time, this was a dominant theme. At first I thought this fell back on to them using money to hire people, but it didn't. They almost never used their money, they just used their skills to get help from others. I tried it myself, and failed.

It took a long time of failing before I began to realize why I was failing. Time and time again, I ran into this situation

DT: I have this great idea.
Other person: DT, that's an awesome idea. I'll help you out.
DT: great. Let's get started on it this weekend
Other person: I can't, I've gotta work.

And this when examined further became a towering barrier: everyone had to work to pay bills, as did I, none of us had free time.

The rich had free time. They hobnobbed with the other rich, who also had free time. Together they could devote a lot of time. This made them a ruling class because they didn't have to work to pay bills.

Sure, other things entered into their power base, but this was far in a way the most powerful differentiator between the classes. Also, it made clear what kept the rich associating with the rich: they needed people with available free time to associate and work on projects. The poor or working classes they might hire, but not to be part of their plan, just to build porches for them, etc. The poor would never have the time to contribute meaningfully to their plans.

Now, sure, most people don't think this far through, it took me a while to see it, so it's not too surprising if the rich start to develop an attitude that tells them that the rich are smarter than the poor. After all, the rich know more about the things that the rich are trying to do, because they've had the free time to study it, and the rich contribute more to the project because they have more free time to devote to it. Not too surprising if they stop listening to what the poor have to say altogether.

I see I'm agreeing with you agreeing with me

It's nice to be agreeable ;)

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 6:14 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT, I know some really rich people, and indeed, they have a very different mentality than you and I! One of them said (of superstrong vapor deposition composites) with a negligent wave of his hand... "Well, I didn't make it, I had someone make it for me"

Yes, the difference between them and us is that "we" feel that we have to EARN our way. But they ARE adamant about cutting taxes! As relatively little in taxes as they pay, they want to pay even LESS, for two reasons:

1) They hate seeing their money go to waste. They'd rather spend it on yachts and jets and parties.

2) They want to kill this government, because on balance this government hurts them more than it helps. It costs a shitload to buy votes, indeed it does. They'd rather dispense with that whole voting thing altogether. That should tell you something about the nature of democracy.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 7:33 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, I noticed Kaneman's army of sockpuppets is trying to spam Firefly. "Lightbringer" indeed! What a tool.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 8:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

1) They hate seeing their money go to waste. They'd rather spend it on yachts and jets and parties.

Three excellent things to spend money on. All of these employ people, and at least two advance science. The worst thing for the rich to spend money on is generally charity, as this typically comes with interference in the lives of the poor, a belief in superiority over the poor, and an agenda, such as eugenics, to control the poor. Please. Rich people, party hard, do not *care* about us. Your caring is killing us, your parties actually might help.

I'm actually considering building a sailboat using some of the design tricks that Larry Ellison spent 40 million dollars having someone else develop. Thank you Larry. I know you're a corporate raider, and I would like to sincerely thank you for spending so much money to advance the science of sailing.

Quote:

2) They want to kill this government, because on balance this government hurts them more than it helps. It costs a shitload to buy votes, indeed it does. They'd rather dispense with that whole voting thing altogether. That should tell you something about the nature of democracy.

I know several as well. The "tea party" elements are the ones I think of as the good guys, they hate democracy and want to destroy govt. This is a sure sign that they are basically good people. Here's why

Democracy is a system for sale to the highest bidder. If you hate this system, and you are holding enough cash to buy in, it's because you're not buying in. Bravo for you.

Next, if you hate govt. It means you're not a corporatist with your hand in the till, you're not getting your bailout handout corruptocracy share because you won't play ball with the NWO agenda monkeys, so bravo for you again.

If someone is rich and an anarchist, it also means they're smart, and they want to use their financial power to break free of the system, rather than buy into it.

Also, it means you're self sacrificing. Think about it. Why would you want to get rid of a system that we've all just concluded overwhelmingly benefits you?

I think there was no dissent to the idea that the wealthiest 1% going from 10% of the wealth in 1950 to over 90%of the wealth today. Blame the laissez faire policies of a pro-capitalist govt, or blame the keyensian policies of a govt. Run economy, either way, the current and standing govt. Of the US over the decades has made it so. No anarchist society could benefit them to the extent that the current structure does. 99% of the power in 1% of the hands? Not even the most despotic feudal fiefdoms accomplished that.

So yes, you and I see the same problems, but analyze them in different ways.

If I were to actually support policies, I'd support the most decadent behaviors of the ruling class, the most corrupt govt. And the worst financial management I could think of, because it would bring the quickest end to this nonsense.

See, I don't see the system as repairable. The US govt. Is a giant killing machine. It was created with basically three things in mind: to enslave the blacks, exterminate the Indians, and destroy the environment, or wilderness as they used to call it.

Then, in the 20th century, it broadened it's scope to killing the people of other countries. First Europe, then Asia, and now the middle east.

If I repaired the giant killing machine, would it thank me, reform, and turn into a force for life? I doubt it. I think it would march on, killing with greater efficiency.

Right now,the machine supports T Boone Pickens et al in their mission to kill us. The govt. Also opposes our rights to defend ourselves. If you get rid of govt, how long do you really think this nonsense would continue? I would be willing to give mr. Pickens and co. Ten seconds to start running, but it wouldn't do any good. My fellow hillbillies would not.

Coyboys or Indians. Take your pick. I can tell you which side the govt. took, is taking and will take, and it's no different in brazil now than it was here. Mr. Pickens is a cowboy, and the govt. Has his back. If they didn't, that back would be Broke ;)

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 9:08 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The banks broke the system, and now they want you to pay. The health care insurances broke the system and now they want you to pay. BP ruined the Gulf, and now it wants residents to bear the burden. The Tea Party is just another front for the same lordlings. This isn't a theoretical issue. There are real, rich people who are working, and working HARD, to make YOU poorer. On purpose. When I bring it up, people say But you're talking class warfare!. Well, class warfare is happening, and YOU'RE the target.

This is the most idiotic , non Pirate News subject I've seen on FFF.net in a long time.

'freedom' isn't defined by gov't employees being allowed to raid the public trough and funnel that $ to one party, over all others.

You're either a useful idiot, a willing participant in the global socialist movement, OR you're for TRUE freedom, and support the TEA party movement.

Pick one.

It's just that simple.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The worst thing for the rich to spend money on is generally charity, as this typically comes with interference in the lives of the poor, a belief in superiority over the poor, and an agenda, such as eugenics, to control the poor. Please. Rich people, party hard, do not *care* about us. Your caring is killing us, your parties actually might help.

Awesome.

That said, I believe there is a place for unconditional, stringless charity, if such a thing exists.

Soup kitchens, for example, often serve whoever comes unconditionally. They don't check your income. They don't give your drug tests. They don't care if you're a pedophile. They just give you food if you want some.

I also believe of all the things to get rid of, govt help for the poor should be amongst the last to go.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This is the most idiotic , non Pirate News subject I've seen on FFF.net in a long time.

'freedom' isn't defined by gov't employees being allowed to raid the public trough and funnel that $ to one party, over all others.

You're either a useful idiot, a willing participant in the global socialist movement, OR you're for TRUE freedom, and support the TEA party movement.

Oh yeah, and Saddam had arsenal of WMD, the UN approved our invasion, and trickle-down created growth. Tell me, rappy... since you seem to be so far removed from reality that you can barely see, why should I listen to you?

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 4:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Oh yeah, and Saddam had arsenal of WMD, the UN approved our invasion, and trickle-down created growth. Tell me, rappy... since you seem to be so far removed from reality that you can barely see, why should I listen to you?

Saddam had WMD, used them, and killed 1000's, if not 10's of 1000's.

Supply Side economics absolutely worked and does work. FAR better than Obamanomics is doing.

None of your "examples" deals w/ the fact that this thread is ridiculous.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

See what I mean, everyone?

Thanks Rappy for proving once again how stuck you are. You're reliable about that.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:04 PM

CTS

I mostly agree, a couple of things:

Another hallmark of good charity (you make some excellent points here, let me just add one) is that those who do it, do it themselves. They get their asses to africa or wherever and do the job themselves, with their own money and their own hands, like Bob Geldoff or Bono.

On govt. "assistance" I have to disagree. Govt. wants to he the poor to just a few things, poverty, control and death.

Almost all govt. assistance is in some way part of a eugenics program, and involves population control and tracking. I am poor, and I vote it the first thing to go.

In order to get rid of it, you need alternative services that can be sought in an anonymous untracked manner where no one is going to sterilize you or abort your child by giving you e wrong medication, etc. Etc. For this we need real alternative healthcare.

And food, food for money is not so much of a problem because every economy has enough work available to make enough to eat, ut food charities are also good, if they just give out food. As for shelter, the poor could always head south. I don't see this as essential, it would certainly fall third. I would say clothing is somewhere here, since clean clothes are probably more important to employability than a college degree, and I've used this a number of times to play Pygmalion.

The core of govt. Help for the poor is Cabrini Green.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:43 PM

Quote:
auraptor:
Saddam had WMD, used them, and killed 1000's, if not 10's of 1000's.

Supply Side economics absolutely worked and does work. FAR better than Obamanomics is doing.

All very true.

Quote:

None of your "examples" deals w/ the fact that this thread is ridiculous.

less so. Signy raises a valid point. This is a class war. If you've been reading this thread, you see at there are those among us who classify the rich as "those who own" rather than those who pay taxes.

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Sunday, February 27, 2011 7:13 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

It is so obnoxious that the government bailed out all the banks.

DT, can you make me one of those sailing boats too?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 28, 2011 4:15 AM

Sure, you want to finance the operation?

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Monday, February 28, 2011 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
In order to get rid of it, you need alternative services

That's all I's sayin'. Don't leave folk hangin' out to dry. I am all about alternative services.

Quote:
The core of govt. Help for the poor is Cabrini Green.

No argument from me here. I used to do social work with the poorest of the poor. I was as bleeding heart liberal as they come. Two years working in that system was enough to turn me libertarian. I am convinced absence of govt help is the most compassionate thing we can do for the poor.

Still, it makes me angry when we are cutting food stamps when we continue to spend billions on corporate welfare. It makes me angry when we don't have nationalized health care (as much as I abhor the idea) when we spend billions on war. It makes me angry when schools have to cut music and art programs when we spend billions to bribe governments in other countries for special interests. So I say, cut those things out first.

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Monday, February 28, 2011 9:58 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
See what I mean, everyone?

Thanks Rappy for proving once again how stuck you are. You're reliable about that.

Yes, how stuck I am on the facts. At least we can agree on that.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 28, 2011 10:01 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
auraptor:
Saddam had WMD, used them, and killed 1000's, if not 10's of 1000's.

Supply Side economics absolutely worked and does work. FAR better than Obamanomics is doing.

All very true.

Quote:

None of your "examples" deals w/ the fact that this thread is ridiculous.

less so. Signy raises a valid point. This is a class war. If you've been reading this thread, you see at there are those among us who classify the rich as "those who own" rather than those who pay taxes.

WMD, Supply side economics... Less filling vs taste great... please.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 28, 2011 1:01 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
If you need to work, you're not rich. That the thing about ruling classes. They work, sure, but not for wages. If you're a wage earner you are working for a master, and that is why you are getting paid.

I disagree. There are many CEOs who don’t “need” to work, but do so for various reasons, some of which you enumerated. But also “to increase wealth”, for psychological reasons, and others. Their wages represent achievement to them, whether that’s true or not. To say “if you earn a wage, you are working for a master” doesn’t always apply, in my opinion.

I also believe

Quote:
This is because the new CEOs are scions of ruling families

is an overgeneralization. I don’t think they all are, by any means, and don’t know if even “the majority” of them are. And what about those on Wall Street? Many of the traders “earn a wage”, and get bonuses on top---and you don’t think any of those are “rich”??

Quote:
The "tea party" elements are the ones I think of as the good guys, they hate democracy and want to destroy govt. This is a sure sign that they are basically good people.

Bullfeathers. How then do you explain why so many rich right wing groups “took over” the Tea Party, financed their get-togethers and their actions? Tell a Tea Partier he wants to “destroy democracy” and see what happens...I don’t see them as the good guys. If anything, I see them as naïve tools.

Yes, Sig:

Quote:
Supply Side economics absolutely worked and does work

Amazing, absolutely amazing. No matter how often or how many facts are presented to disprove that one, it lives...much like a zombie...

Quote:
Almost all govt. assistance is in some way part of a eugenics program

I would say something about that, but I won’t bother, except to say that I think you’re a bit hung up on a few things, DT, eugenics among them. What about subsidies, like to big oil, as just one example? What about disability---without which many who are unable to work would starve? I take that back; I don’t want to get into it with you, I can see where it would go. But that IS an amazing statement, in my opinion.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, February 28, 2011 1:13 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ok.

So, the local bookstore is going to start making super-zombies.

Got it.

Cus, you know. All corporations are EVIL.

Forget that they provide jobs and benefits.

Forget that they are mostly just people trying to grow their business.

So what does that make Apple?

I mean, come on.. you want to charge the wind-mill, right?

So what about good old Apple? Or Toyota (maker of Pruisi?)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, February 28, 2011 1:21 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The banks broke the system, and now they want you to pay. The health care insurances broke the system and now they want you to pay. BP ruined the Gulf, and now it wants residents to bear the burden. The Tea Party is just another front for the same lordlings. This isn't a theoretical issue. There are real, rich people who are working, and working HARD, to make YOU poorer. On purpose. When I bring it up, people say But you're talking class warfare!. Well, class warfare is happening, and YOU'RE the target.

This is the most idiotic , non Pirate News subject I've seen on FFF.net in a long time.

'freedom' isn't defined by gov't employees being allowed to raid the public trough and funnel that $ to one party, over all others.

You're either a useful idiot, a willing participant in the global socialist movement, OR you're for TRUE freedom, and support the TEA party movement.

Pick one.

It's just that simple.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Ah, some delusions never change.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, February 28, 2011 1:48 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2: Amazing, absolutely amazing. No matter how often or how many facts are presented to disprove that one, it lives...much like a zombie...

One small problem, no such facts have been presented that disprove it, so that kills that silly notion.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 28, 2011 1:52 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Ah, some delusions never change.

Yet another gaze into the mirror, eh ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 28, 2011 3:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

A little off topic, but I have also noticed it Niki, DT has been throwing eugenics out there a lot lately, I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, especially since families that are poor continue to have lots of kids rather than having less, so how is the government keeping the poor from reproducing? Just asking.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 28, 2011 4:40 PM

Riona,

Check out the birth rate in my father's country, the Czech republic. Not the first time that eugenics has hit that country, since his family was killed in the holocaust.

Next, perhaps my mother's ancestral Ireland, which has been hit by an endless wave of plans placed by London to limit or kill the population.

Eugenics has killed over 1.2 billion people, 1000 times as many as auschwitz alone. It's not a small issue.

That said, it is not my personal issue. That would be first and foremost the environment. Nonetheless, I do not take the extermination of the people of the earth lightly. Also, lots of personal experiences I don't want to disclose on a public forum.

You seem keen on Ireland. Has it ever occurred that perhaps the current economic crisis in that country is not the result of bad local policy, but rather a construct of Brussels? How about the past policies? That perhaps the policies of 10 downing street that support, and have for some time, the settlement of Ireland with englishmen has more in common with oliver Cromwell than the current or recent govts. Would care to admit? Perhaps Dublin is not as independent as it claims, and it never actually ceased to be a beachhead colony for controlling the island, perhaps the potato famine was not the result of a bad crop.

Not all wars are fought with tanks and bombs. Of course, I could be wrong...

Perhaps I'm just misinformed. Maybe I never really looked into it.

ETA: I deleted a snark here. When I first came I was rather obnoxious to pirate news, because, given my family's holocaust background, I found his remarks on Jews, the holocaust, and Israel, just a touch on the well, insensitive side. Meaning, I think I called him a Nazi.

But the truth is no one holds a monopoly on the truth, and no one holds a void in it either. John is pretty informed. He's also pretty opinionated, but don't let the fact that someone is opinionated lead you to the conclusion that they are therefore uninformed.

I would recommend reading, if you have the time, a lot fo stuff which is about 90% nonsense, because the 10% truth is often very poignant, important, and relevant to the struggle between the controllers and the controlled of this world. I is in the end far better information than that which is 100% true but contains nothing of importance or relevance.

Still, when reading stuff which *is* 90% nonsense, it's important to know the difference. This is why you'll see me post things which seem irrelevant or even insane, such as "Molech is not an owl." it's part of an effort between knowing what is and is not true. You won't see me posting a lot about republican are conspiring to silence democrats on gay marriage... It might be true, but it's not particularly important, which is not to say gay marriage isn't, but that republicans and democrats aren't.

I suspect knowing the difference between what is important and what is not is ultimately, itself, more important than knowing what is true and what is not. Even information which is 100% false, if actually relevant, can be very useful, but that is a far more complicated topic for another day. Suffice it to say that there are people here with whom I see eye to eye and those who don't, but it has less to do with what we think is true than with what we think is important.

For the record, I think eugenics is very importantly. I would define it thusly: efforts made by one party to limit the population of another by means other than direct military conflict. (why anyone would do this rather than increase their own population and support it is a rather sticky one of economics.)

Niki

You have an issue with supply side economics? You have yet to post an argument against it. What, exactly, do you recommend as a better model, Keyensian consumerism?

Obviously I'm familiar with wall street, I did work ten years as a financial analysts for a couple brokerage firms. But, no, traders don't have wages, they have capital gains (with any luck at all) I find the idea that people accumulate wealth for psychological reasons absurd. These are not morons we're talking about. They are in competition with one another, over control of very specific variables in a complex system. I know what they are up to. I still call them fools, but I do not think they are simpletons. They are just pursuing, IMHO, the wrong thing.

If I said CEOs were all scions of noble families, that's not what I meant, obviously if I went out tomorrow and started a corporation I would be a CEO, as I have been before. I meant the headhunter style CEO who makes 500 times their workers salaries are not themselves company men. They are moneyed men, they came in to raid, to increase the family fortune. Ergo, they are members of the ruling class.

But, yes, if someone runs a company, they are still and employee, and most CEOs make around 300-600k, which is pretty much in line with their 1920s or present day japan counterparts. Of course, taking this into consideration, you have to consider also there are CEOs who are bringing the average *up* to 500.

And Niki.... If you want to take something back, there's a backspace key. You already know that my sister is disabled, and chose to work, rather than receive disability, and currently has a world of trouble. If you're going to say something you know is insensitive, maybe best not to say it. You also know I chose to work rather than collect disability, which was offered, but you may not know that I know many others.. I used to work for a man who could only move his head. He was a college professor. Everyone has something they can do, but no, I don't think that everyone needs to work. Everyone has someone to help. We don't need to use this idea that people need to be cared for by a nanny state to give the state a reason to justify it's existence so it can go on sounding three trillion a year to kill millions of people a year, etc. etc. etc.

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Monday, February 28, 2011 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
A little off topic, but I have also noticed it Niki, DT has been throwing eugenics out there a lot lately, I'm not entirely sure where this is coming from, especially since families that are poor continue to have lots of kids rather than having less, so how is the government keeping the poor from reproducing? Just asking.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Oh, and specifically, no, the poor do not have lots of kids. Not here at least. It's economics. Mostly. Kids have become "expensive." the way they would like you to pay is with debt, so that you can become indentured. Any good master wants their slave population to increase, but not their peasantry. A large poor peasantry is likely to revolt.

Less productive alternatives are offered regularly, by various means, I don't want to get into an argument on the topic which going into this here would automatically produce, as has been demonstrated here many times, but suffice it to say that the people here are poor, and they tend to have few if any children, and the houses are all empty. The population has been declining for some time.

In my lifetime, the nature of this area I live in has changed fairly radically from one of large families, festive gatherings and open communication to one of closed communities of small families and childless households, isolated from one another, on a journey towards extinction, and I can point to a few specific policy changes that brought this about, as they were designed to.

We're all the frog on slow boil. If someone were to invade us with an army, we'd react. If they pick us off in drips and drabs, we appear not to react. We need to start thinking as long term and broad scale as our opponents.

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Monday, February 28, 2011 4:58 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, dear. Rion, I read your post and immediately thought "oh, shit, she's gonna get him started". I see I was too late. DT believes what he believes, just as each of us believe what we believe. I disagree with him that eugenics has SUCH an extensive effect.

As far as Raptor’s insistent delusion that trickle-down works, we’ve been there, done that, and proven quite factually that it DOESN’T work. I’m not going through all that again; besides, even if we did, the next time he felt like it he would insist “Voodoo Economics”, as Geo. Bush Sr. called it, DOES work. So it’s not worth bothering with.

Okay, I took the time to read DT's posts. I don't know what you mean by

Quote:
If you want to take something back, there's a backspace key.

What am I supposed to want to take back? If you mean about disability, I wasn't pointing to anyone specific, and it had nothing whatsoever to do with your sister. I've never said anything UNsupportive of her situation and how much hurt it brings you, nor have I ever intimated anything about anyone else with disability.

Actually, I think it's interesting you are judging me insensitive for part of a sentence mentioning disability and the safety net I think government provides for the disabled. How is that insensitive? Isn't it instead rather insensitive of you to attack me, since I AM disabled??? It feels like you're saying "screw you if you're disabled and don't work despite it". I tried to work after my crash and diagnosis; got fired from a couple of jobs before I gave up. Then I tried working from home, everything from taking classes in medical bookkeeping to handwork finishing products. If you want to judge me for the long time it took me to accept that I couldn't rejoin the working force, that's your business. It has nothing to do with me. I maintain there are many people who are disabled who are NOT able to work, whatever you may believe.

As to trickle-down economics, yes, we have discussed it before. I posted all the facts and figures in at least two different discussions...I don't know if you were there at the time but I'd be surprised if you weren't there for at least ONE of the discussions. There's truly no way to absolutely, positively prove it doesn't work to those who believe it does, because there is always a sideways argument like "the timing is wrong" or somesuch. So we'll have to agree to disagree--or rather, since you consider that as abandoning an argument, I'LL agree to disagree and you can judge me any way you want. I don't choose to spend the time and effort doing it all over again.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, February 28, 2011 5:40 PM