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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
What happened to "freedom of religion"?
Monday, March 28, 2011 11:38 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:"Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door" examines a city in middle Tennessee that is torn apart by fear and suspicion as residents fight to block the construction of a large Islamic center. From New York to California, since Sept. 11, 2001, fears of radical Islam, terrorism and "Sharia law" have fueled opposition to mosque projects and launched a national debate around religious freedom protections. Murfreesboro, Tennessee has just over 100,000 people, 140+ churches, and one mosque. For decades, Muslims have lived and prayed in Murfreesboro without incident, but last May, when the Muslim community gained county approval to build a new 52,000 square foot Islamic center in town, hundreds of Murfreesboro residents took to the streets in protest. CNN anchor and special correspondent Soledad O'Brien chronicles the dramatic fight to block the mosque project in Murfreesboro and the fight over religious freedom; a fight that would ultimately include protests, vandalism, arson and an explosive lawsuit that would involve the U.S. Department of Justice.
Quote:Nationwide Protests Over Mosques Increases From Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn to Temecula in California, angry Americans are participating in protests and are being met by other Americans supportive of their Muslim neighbors. Those opposed to the building of new mosques and Islamic centers cite traffic problems, but too often intolerance and fear is the chief motivator. At the Sheepshead Bay protest, according to The Brooklyn Paper, one protester told the newspaper, “They’re not going to stay here alive.” The article stated that “…intolerance was common at the rally.” At the Temecula protest, signs like “No Sharia Law” represented the unfounded fear that Muslims were attempting to supplant American law. A History of Religious Intolerance Continues Religious intolerance in America can be traced back to the Puritans of New England, who would just as soon hang a Quaker or a Catholic. In the Calvinist Dutch New Amsterdam colony, Governor Peter Stuyvesant refused to accept a ship carrying refugee Jews. Virginia’s official Anglicanism made Sunday church attendance mandatory whether one was an Anglican or not. During the 19th Century religious intolerance grew worse. Mormons were forced to trek to Utah after having been repeatedly uprooted by often hostile and violent neighbors. The Know-Nothing Party was formed in the 1850s to deny rights to Catholics. In the 20th Century, American Jews were subjected to Anti-Semitism. Today, intolerance targets Muslims. Intolerance and Ignorance Perpetuate Fear Anti-mosque protests continue in Murfreesboro, Tennessee and Sheboygan, Wisconsin. According to the website of the Islamic Society of Sheboygan, “Muslim families have lived in that community for 25 years and have never had a place to pray.” Newt Gingrich, however, writes that “this is a test of our commitment to religious liberty. It is a test to see if we have the resolve to face down an ideology that aims to destroy religious liberty in America, and every other freedom we hold dear.” The strength of the First Amendment’s free exercise clause, however, is most often threatened when religious intolerance is unchecked. In 1993, the Supreme Court struck down a Hialeah, Florida statute that forbade members of the Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye from conducting animal sacrifices during Santeria ceremonies and rituals. Gingrich has said, “No churches in Saundi Arabia? Then no mosques near Ground Zero.” But what makes the United States different from many other societies is the determination to preserve Constitutional principles, even if the results are not liked by every citizen. http://www.suite101.com/content/muslims-face-religious-intolerance-in-american-communities-a271630#ixzz1HvqFVDGC Don't give me the shit about mosques being "training centers for terrorists", it's been debunked and if anyone honestly believes Muslims go to mosques for the purpose of terrorist instruction, they're either deliberately ignorant or incapable of common sense. The vast majority of Muslims, just like the vast majority of every other religion, go to their place of worship to WORSHIP. Anything else is bullshit.
Monday, March 28, 2011 11:43 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, March 28, 2011 11:54 AM
Monday, March 28, 2011 11:55 AM
THEHAPPYTRADER
Monday, March 28, 2011 11:56 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Ah, so it's okay for the American people to not allow the practice of freedom of religion, long as it's not the government. I get it. That makes it even more egregious, to me; if we're a nation which preaches freedom of religion, we should be PROTECTING the rights of other religions than Christianity to be followed. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy to hold it up as part of America's principles. It's not just people "voicing" opposition, it's people pressuring their local government, AND local governments on their own, finding ways to deny Muslims freedom of religion. But that's okay with you, apparently. Then I call you a hypocrite, as well.
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:02 PM
CANTTAKESKY
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: What ever happened to " freedom of speech " ?
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:08 PM
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:13 PM
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:23 PM
DREAMTROVE
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:27 PM
Quote:Many Americans find it difficult to believe that the U.S. has anything to learn from Europe when it comes to religion. The recent controversies over mosques suggest otherwise. That’s because this is a story that has been playing out in Europe for some time, with results ranging from restrictions on religious liberty to a worsening of tensions between Muslims and non-Muslims. America cannot afford to go down the same path. Anti-mosque sentiment is clearly on the rise in America. Efforts to block the construction of the proposed Cordoba Center in New York City are the most noteworthy, but proposed Islamic centers and mosques in places such as Murfreesboro, TN, and Temecula, CA, are also under attack. Why? Some opponents are quick to cite mundane reasons such as zoning laws or increased traffic. But one look at some of the placards in a recent Murfreesboro protest tells a different story. One stated: “Mosque Leaders Support Killing Converts Tell It!” And one protester told a local news station that “in Islam, a mosque means ‘We have conquered this country’ … They’re going to say, ‘We have conquered Tennessee.’” Many Europeans are clearly anxious over Islam’s increasing presence and visibility because they, too, tend to define Islam as an inherently violent religion. The Swiss campaign against minarets succeeded because organizers tapped into popular fears concerning Islam, with minarets portrayed as weapons used by Muslims to conquer Europe. Polls indicate that plenty of other Europeans share these fears. For their part, Muslims have adopted an accommodating attitude in the overwhelming majority of conflicts concerning mosques and minarets. They have agreed to relocate proposed mosques to less central (and less visible) locations. They have modified architectural designs so that mosques look, well, less mosque-like. They have kept minarets relatively short so as not to rival church towers and steeples, or they have simply not erected minarets. They have developed creative ways to issue the call to prayer, such as short-wave transmitters and text messaging, to ease concerns from non-Muslims over hearing the call from loudspeakers. In the Marseille mosque currently under construction, a flashing light will be used to issue the call to prayer. Over and over again, Muslims across Europe have responded with respect and deference to local and national concerns and have followed the relevant laws affecting where or how they can build mosques. This is a far cry from the violent, anti-democratic reputation that the Islamic faith still has in much of Europe. But the second-class treatment Muslims have received is taking its toll, and tensions are rising between European countries and Muslims, particularly among the younger generations. Many Muslims continue to feel like foreigners and outsiders in their own country. The European response to Islam continues in many cases to operate on unfortunate stereotypes and caricatures. It involves rendering that which is visible invisible, that which is present absent. In doing so, freedom of religion becomes the major casualty, hostility towards Muslims persists, and opportunities to build bridges between Islam and the West pass by. We should think long and hard about whether we want to mimic Europe in its treatment of Islam. Our nation prides itself on religious tolerance and diversity. Our Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion. But efforts to prohibit the construction of Islamic centers and mosques undermine these principles and move us closer to a Europe where restrictions on religious liberty are the most common means of “dealing” with Islam. We also risk missing some of the same opportunities as Europeans if we oppose the construction of religious centers whose purpose often includes helping non-Muslims discover what they share in common with Muslims, either as people of faith or as loyal citizens. America has a long history of learning from some of the mistakes made in Europe when it comes to religious toleration and liberty. Here we have yet another opportunity to do so. Let’s not miss it.
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:42 PM
Quote:Others opposed to the plan did so for more practical reasons, citing concerns about the effects on traffic and housing values. The mosque would be built in a primarily residential area. "I was very surprised they would approve of that for any religion," said resident Jackie Archer.
Quote:After a suspected arson and reports of gunshots at an Islamic center in Tennessee over the weekend, nearby mosques have hired security guards, installed surveillance cameras and requested the presence of federal agents at prayer services. Muslim leaders in central Tennessee say that frightened worshipers are observing Ramadan in private and that some Muslim parents are wary of sending their children to school after a large fire on Saturday that destroyed property at the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro. Federal authorities suspect that the fire was arson. Saturday, the police say, someone set fire to construction equipment at the site where the Islamic center is planning to move, destroying an earthmover and three other pieces of machinery. And on Sunday, as CNN was filming a news segment about the controversy, someone fired at least five shots near the property. In Nashville, 30 miles northwest, local imams met with representatives of the United States attorney’s office on Monday to discuss the risk of further anti-Islamic violence. Several mosques have requested police surveillance, they said. Another mosque, the Islamic Center of Nashville, has installed indoor and outdoor surveillance cameras, hired round-the-clock security guards and requested that F.B.I. agents be on site during worship services, according to the imam, Mohamed Ahmed.
Quote: Demonstrators clashed Friday over the proposed construction of a mosque right next to a church in Temecula. As worshippers at the Islamic Center of Temecula Valley arrived to pray, a small but vocal group of about two dozen protestors waved American flags and shouted through bullhorns, denouncing a plan to build a new mosque in another part of the Riverside County town. "I just don't agree with their beliefs," said Cynthia Daum, who assembled with the protestors across the street from the center. The existing Islamic center has been operating in Temecula out of an industrial building for almost 10 years. Members have saved the funds to build a new mosque on a 4-acre plot of vacant land in a different area of the city. Members of the community showed up in front of the Islamic Center to lend support, outnumbering the protestors by about 10 to one. They said they won't let the anger of some community members scare them away from building a mosque because it all comes down to civil rights. "We respect everyone's opinion - we're American," said Hadi Nael. "They have the right to freedom of speech, we have the freedom of religion." The proposed location of the mosque, in close proximity to a church, has stirred emotions over what some people see as an intrusion on the community. "I have witnessed what happens to many nations in the world by the expansion of Islamic ideology," said Mano Bakh. "They destroy the community, they destroy the country." The Islamic Center will submit its building proposal to the city's Planning Commission in August. Meanwhile, protestors are circulating a petition to stop its progress.
Monday, March 28, 2011 12:47 PM
Quote: At least here in California, people are standing up against the intolerance
Monday, March 28, 2011 1:05 PM
Monday, March 28, 2011 1:12 PM
Monday, March 28, 2011 2:30 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: What ever happened to " freedom of speech " ? Citizens voicing their views on an issue isn't what the Founders were worried about. It was the GOVERNMENT forbidding or demanding a certain religion be followed or practiced.
Monday, March 28, 2011 2:43 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, March 28, 2011 2:56 PM
Quote:Originally posted by RionaEire: The thing about Sherria law is that it _does sometimes hurt people, namely women.
Monday, March 28, 2011 2:57 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: What ever happened to " freedom of speech " ? Citizens voicing their views on an issue isn't what the Founders were worried about. It was the GOVERNMENT forbidding or demanding a certain religion be followed or practiced. So you're not okay with Tennessee's proposed law that would make it illegal to practice Sharia law, right? And you'll no doubt come out in support of Oklahoma's new law banning Sharia law as well, yes? After all, these ARE instances of the government telling you a certain religion CAN'T be followed or practiced.
Monday, March 28, 2011 5:48 PM
HARDWARE
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 3:33 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: CNN had a special report last night, "Unwelcome: The Muslims Next Door".
Quote:Church construction stirs opposition in Chino Hills CHINO HILLS - Residents and recreational users are concerned about a proposed church on rural English Road that could disrupt the area's quiet country atmosphere. The Planning Commission tonight will consider a conditional-use permit that would allow the construction of an 11,600-square-foot, two-story church near the southwest corner of English Road and Peyton Drive. The area is presently zoned for rural residences and agricultural use.
Quote:Church condos’ ‘last approval’ draws neighbor opposition Continued worries over the condominiums planned to go up around Porter Square’s elegant St. James’s Episcopal Church has residents preparing to attend Wednesday’s meeting of the Planning Board, said Patricia Armstrong, a neighbor of the project. “Oaktree has repeatedly stated from the start they needed no special permits,” Armstrong said, referring to the developer of the four-story, 78,000-square-foot modern structure that would go around the 122-year-old Richardson Romanesque church. “Now they are applying for additional special permits.” The project, resulting from the closing of a car wash at 2013 Massachusetts Ave., is a partnership between Cambridge-based Oaktree Development and the 325-member church, which would retain the ground floor of the condominium structure (except for a small retail space) and get an endowment described as being as high as $3 million — and vital to the maintenance of the church building and its programs.
Quote:Neighbors prevent church construction New Life Church, with its lively music and real-life stories, has experienced skyrocketing attendance since 1995, and the group has pushed to expand by building a new auditorium. However, neighborhood resistance has inhibited the construction of this auditorium. The church has had trouble getting approval for the project from city planners.
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 5:33 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Hardware: This is a perfect example of NIMBYism.
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:35 AM
Quote: Yes, on both. The law is the law. And no 'religious' law can supersede constitutional law.
Quote: Citizens voicing their views on an issue isn't what the Founders were worried about. It was the GOVERNMENT forbidding or demanding a certain religion be followed or practiced.
Quote:Canon law is the codification of Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox law (like in a civil law tradition), while Sharia law derives many of its laws from juristic precedent and reasoning by analogy (like in a common law tradition).
Quote:The mitzvot in the Torah (also called the Mosaic law after Moses) pertain to nearly every aspect of human life; some of these laws are directed only to men or to women, some only to the ancient priestly groups (the Kohanim and Leviyim, members of the tribe of Levi, some only to farmers within the Land of Israel. (Note “every aspect of human life”.) Halakha has developed gradually through a variety of legal and quasi-legal mechanisms, including judicial decisions, legislative enactments, and customary law. Jewish law is based on the Torah.
Quote:Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members. It is the internal ecclesiastical law governing the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Anglican Communion of churches. The way that such church law is legislated, interpreted and at times adjudicated varies widely among these three bodies of churches. Canon law, like other Christian laws, is based on the Bible’s teachings.In the Roman Church, positive ecclesiastical laws, based upon either immutable divine and natural law, or changeable circumstantial and merely positive law, derive formal authority and promulgation from the pope, who as Supreme Pontiff possesses the totality of legislative, executive, and judicial power in his person. The actual subject material of the canons is not just doctrinal or moral in nature, but indeed all-encompassing of the human condition. (Note: “All-encompassing of the human condition”)
Quote:Hindu law was recognized by the British after their rule of India but its influenced largely waned after the establishment of the Republic of India, which is secular. Hindu law is largely based on the Manu Smriti (smriti of Manu).
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:40 AM
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 11:20 AM
Quote:Vatican Canon Law Adviser: NY Governor Andrew Cuomo Should Be Denied Communion
Quote:1983 Code of Canon Law directs that women should still wear veils, and the Church teaching on this has not changed, and never will change.
Quote:Under Canon Law a woman could not be witness in ecclesiastical or criminal suits, nor attest a will.
Quote:Like most women in Europe, Jewish women in the Middle Ages had exclusively household roles and arranged marriages; child brides were common. Jewish women were generally prohibited from holding formal leadership roles with authority over men.
Quote:In accordance with Jewish Law, Orthodox Jewish women refrain from contact with their husbands while they are menstruating, and for a period of 7 clean days after menstruating, and after the birth of a child. In the area of education, women were historically exempted from any study beyond an understanding of the practical aspects of Torah, and the rules necessary in running a Jewish household – both of which they have an obligation to learn.
Quote:forbade women from serving as presidents of synagogues or any other official positions of leadership. Modern Orthodox authorities, and most Haredi Rabbis, rule that all women's prayer groups are absolutely forbidden by halakha (Jewish law).
Quote:1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband. 2. She has no property or inheritance rights. 3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family. 4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family. 5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below). 6. She cannot remarry. 7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public. She cannot wear jewelry or colourful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!) 8. Child and infant marriage is encouraged.
Quote: 1.The Muslim woman has the same right as the Muslim man in all matters including divorce. 2. She enjoys property and inheritance rights. She can also conduct her own separate business. 3. She can marry any Muslim of her choice. If her parents choose a partner for her, her consent must be taken. 4. The dowry in Islam is a gift from a husband to his wife (not the other way around as is practiced by some). 5. A Muslim widow is encouraged to remarry, and her remarriage is the responsibility of the Muslim society. 6. Mixed marriage is encouraged and is a means to prevent racism creeping in society.
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 11:42 AM
Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:01 PM
Quote: Nope, your two statements are directly contradictory. First you refuted what was said by saying it was only "people" expressing their dislike, that the Constitution only prohibits GOVERNMENT from interefering with freedom of religion. Then you expressed approval of GOVERNMENT interfering with freedom of religion where sharia law is concerned. Nice try, but the contradiction is way too obvious for anyone reading it.
Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:21 AM
Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:08 AM
Thursday, March 31, 2011 7:44 AM
Thursday, March 31, 2011 12:55 PM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: Rap Ya might've meant boggling.
Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:41 PM
Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:46 PM
Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: Rap Ya might've meant boggling. Heh heh. Guess you never saw ...
Friday, April 1, 2011 4:53 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Quote:In his formal complaint submitted to the U.S. District Court in Pocatello earlier this month, Philip H. Mockli, founder and "Head Honcho" of the state's newest religious movement - the Ethereal Enigmatic Euphoric Movement Toward Civilized Hedonism - says Franklin County Republicans are pushing their conservative agenda on the community by allowing only beer sales in Preston's taverns.
Friday, April 1, 2011 7:12 AM
BYTEMITE
Friday, April 1, 2011 7:32 AM
Friday, April 1, 2011 7:33 AM
BLUEHANDEDMENACE
Friday, April 1, 2011 7:52 AM
Friday, April 1, 2011 9:09 PM
Saturday, April 2, 2011 10:07 AM
Sunday, April 3, 2011 10:14 AM
Quote:Just because a local municipality here or there doesn't want to pass an ordinance for the building of a mosque at a certain site, that doesn't constitute some vast display of 'intolerance' or attack on anyone's freedom of religion.
Quote: We’re hearing from the local chamber of commerce and alderman’s office that the city has denied a special use permit that would allow a mosque to replace a shut down hot dog grill. It’s based on the need to generate tax revenue on the former site of the original Fluky’s and later U Lucky Dawg, at 6821 N. Western Ave.
Quote:At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off. In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law. These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat. “What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.” Mr. Harmoush said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council. “We do all these activities and nobody notices,” he said. “Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.” The City of Temecula recently postponed a hearing on whether to grant the mosque a permit. “As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion. But Islam is not about a religion. It’s a political government, and it’s 100 percent against our Constitution.”
Sunday, April 3, 2011 8:10 PM
Sunday, April 3, 2011 8:52 PM
Monday, April 4, 2011 3:13 AM
HERO
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: As far as I know sharia is only practiced in Saudi Arabia. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Monday, April 4, 2011 4:17 AM
JEWELSTAITEFAN
Quote:Originally posted by RionaEire: Am I afraid of Sherria law gaining a foot hold in the US? Not in the near future since we have laws against hurting girls and women etc. But Sherria law, well those aspects of it, do scare me some.
Monday, April 4, 2011 4:37 AM
Monday, April 4, 2011 5:38 AM
Monday, April 4, 2011 5:47 AM
Quote: Dunno how much Sharia law is involved, but it sure as heck is barbaric.
Quote: A gay Iranian teen could be facing the gallows in Iran after his attempts to seek asylum in Britain and Holland failed. Yesterday the Netherlands' highest court rejected Mehdi Kazemi's last-ditch bid to avoid deportation to Britain, where he fears authorities will send him back to Tehran and possible execution. The teenager came to London to study English in 2005 but later discovered that his boyfriend had been arrested by the Iranian police, charged with sodomy and hanged. Mr Kazemi applied for asylum in the UK, saying he feared for his life if he returned to Iran. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-531729/Gay-teen-facing-gallows-Iran-asylum-bids-Britain-Holland-fail.html#ixzz1IZNkbFMd
Monday, April 4, 2011 5:50 AM
Monday, April 4, 2011 5:52 AM
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