Anarchists in London want more government hand-outs, demand folks pay their taxes by Geezer

America loves a winner!

gimmie gimmie gimmie!

The call of the new entitlement minded anarchist.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 4:24 AM

Do they call themselves anarchists?

The definition of socialist seems to me to be unchanged in the last century. It's just that the left has a warm fuzzy feeling about it that is taught in college. Also, capitalism has pretty clearly failed, and the same idiocy that drives anti-partisan to the opposing flawed party drive anti-economic scheme crowd to the opposing flawed economic model.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Also, capitalism has pretty clearly failed

So, freedom has failed?

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Anarchists for more government and more taxes? Does that seem right to you?

I don't see anywhere in this article that they are calling themselves anarchists. The paper is calling them "anarchists" in the sense of "anyone who resorts to street violence and chaos to fight govt policy."

That is all we know about them: they are people who are resorting to street violence and chaos to fight govt policy. For all we know they are liberals. Or conservatives. Or bored.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:40 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Do they call themselves anarchists?

They seem to.

Quote:
'Black bloc' anarchists behind anti-cuts rampage reject thuggery claims.

...

But unmasked and talking to the Guardian, anarchists involved in last weekend's violence claimed their direct action tactics were going viral. They said they were legitimate representatives of the public's concern about public sector cuts and their ranks had swollen to an estimated 1,500, boosted by student first-timers.

The black bloc tactic involves masked militants moving in tight units cordoned by flags, vandalising symbolic property and sometimes attacking police. The group created chaos in central London's busiest shopping area last weekend, seizing attention from about half a million peaceful anti-cuts protesters on a Trades Union Congress-organised march and terrifying onlookers. Anarchists attacked the Ritz hotel, smashed the windows of banks, fought with police officers and vandalised police vans. There were 201 arrests (mostly non-violent protesters at Fortnum & Mason) and at least 84 people were injured including 31 police officers, 12 of whom required hospital treatment for minor injuries.

One activist admitted criminal gangs and small numbers of football hooligans were among those who adopted the approach. But the anarchists stressed that those in the black bloc last weekend included graduates, social workers, students, the unemployed, militant feminists and mental health nurses.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/apr/01/anarchists-anti-cuts-mar
ch

"They said they were legitimate representatives of the public's concern about public sector cuts..."

So seems they are stating they're anarchists who want to keep government handouts coming. Sounds more like the new-model 'socialists' (who support social welfare programs, not state ownership of the means of production) dressed us as ASBOs.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 6:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
Also, capitalism has pretty clearly failed

So, freedom has failed?

Definitely. But if you equate capitalism to freedom you're a moron.

Capitalism is a system where economic control is based on capital, ie., persistent wealth. It does not equal a free market.

Our capital-regulated financial system, based on a central banking system based on persistent capital and fiat issue, has reached EPIC FAIL. It would take the entire federal govt.'s revenue of our entire lives to pay off its current liabilities.

Communism is a terrible system, but economically, at the moment, they're kicking our asses. The gloat days of the fall of the USSR are over.

I believe there are other better economic systems out there.

But, yes, Rap, if you have a Patriot Act, a dept of Homeland Security, torture, assassinations, systematic dismantling of the bill of rights, placing the govt. above the law, and abandoning habeas corpus and the Geneva Conventions, then, yes, "Freedom" has failed.

In a free country, You would buy things you wanted, not be required to do so by law. You could say what you wanted, without having website taken down. You could opt not to pay taxes to support policies or wars we didn't support, and as Mike pointed out, to pay your salary if he disagrees with what you're doing (See above, buying a product you don't want, in this case, a pan-arabian war in the middle east.)

In a free country, you could not spontaneously lose your house to eminent domain, you could take whatever medical care options you wanted, and you could marry whomever you choose, if they chose to marry you. In a free country, you could follow whatever religion you wanted, and have those religious values respected by the law, at the very least if that was a recognized religion, and not have a system of preferential treatment for some religions, and persecution of others. In a free country you could travel as you wished, without being tracked, and you would not be detained without charge.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 6:46 AM

Geezer,

I'm going to wait for Frem to weigh in on "anarchists." A quick wiki reveals that Black Bloc is a tactic, and not a group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

So it's hard to say who they are until we know who they are, and then what they say. Anyone can use black bloc apparently, including socialists, and anyone can cause chaos.

Modern self-proclaimed socialists are either naive about the destination of socialism, or they are incrementalists who realize that the population will never accept a direct jump to a state-run economy, and so want "an increased role in the economy for regulators" ie, the govt, the state, not just the public sector itself, but public-private hybrids, aka corporatists. We've been seeing a lot of this in the current admin, and we saw some in the previous two, so as an incremental strategy I think it's credible, but I don't call things socialist until they call themselves that. I think that this new breed will find a name for itself. It seems to be co-opting "progressive" the way corporatist conservatives are co-opting "tea party."

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 7:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Capitalism isn't the result of the free maket ? Flesh that one out for me, if you can.

Our liabilities aren't a result of capitalism, but of massive excess in gov't spending.

Quote:
But, yes, Rap, if you have a Patriot Act, a dept of Homeland Security, torture, assassinations, systematic dismantling of the bill of rights, placing the govt. above the law, and abandoning habeas corpus and the Geneva Conventions, then, yes, "Freedom" has failed.

You're tacking on a laundry list of things which don't apply to the primary issue of economics. The free market IS freedom. The Patriot Act, and all that other stuff... a totally separate issue. But as an economic model, a system, the ability of an individual to make as much $ or do with their money as they see fit... that's freedom.

The Federal Gov't should be forced to spend on those things first which it is properly mandated. It shouldn't be perpetually making up new fees and taxes, in order to pay off this or that group for votes, as it has done, for the past 100 years or so. We're running this country backwards, buying and paying things we don't need, aren't under the proper function of gov't, then whining that we don't have enough $$. Bull! We need to cut our budget in half, and do away with unnecessary deptaremtns ( education, agriculture , energy... ) and start paying for essential gov't services only. And yes, cutting the DoD is a must as well.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 7:29 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

gimmie gimmie gimmie!

The call of the new entitlement minded anarchist.

The Rest Of The Story:

Quote:
"gimmie gimmie gimmie!"
-anarchist provocateur undercover police employed by kosher IMF banksters demanding QUADRILLION$ in bailouts

The only Revolution on planet Earth today is the kosher New World Odor totalitarian fascist global govt ovethrowing every govt including USA. They enslaved all govts by national debt on the interest on counterfeit "money" printed out of thin air and computer keystrokes. They own the media to tell you what to think about themselves, without investigating anything. These jew banksters have already extorted $40-trillion in bailouts from US taxslaves, and stolen over $1-QUADRILLION (1,000 Trillion or 1-Million billion$) from local govts and pension funds.

IMF Riots and Confessions of an Economic Hitman:

These "fake" riots are controlled opposition -- a steam valve to prevent real revolution. Like bread and circus for the Romans, football and soccer for the suckers today.

Real anarchists would have chopped the heads off the royal family by now.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
"They said they were legitimate representatives of the public's concern about public sector cuts..."

I see 3 possible explanations.

1. The above quotation alone doesn't mean they are anarchists. They use "black bloc" tactics, but those tactics themselves are ideology neutral. It is possible that the press has confused their costume/tactics with the original ideology associated with that costume/tactics. They could just as easily be black bloc socialists.

http://www.infoshop.org/page/Blackbloc-Faq

2. These people are left anarchists who want to foster socialism until the their ideal of stateless communism is achieved.

3. Or they could be completely hypocritical and deluded. There are plenty of those people around. "Anarchists" for social welfare, "Christians" for hate and war, and "Muslims" for suicide bombs.

Anarchism is as anarchism does.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 9:24 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geezer,

I'm going to wait for Frem to weigh in on "anarchists." A quick wiki reveals that Black Bloc is a tactic, and not a group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

So it's hard to say who they are until we know who they are, and then what they say. Anyone can use black bloc apparently, including socialists, and anyone can cause chaos.

If you read the whole Guardian article, you'll find that several of the folks interviewed identifed themselves (although not by their real names) as anarchists, so they apparently think they are.

I realize that there are several flavors of anarchist, but the though of some of them encouraging government welfare and tax law enforcement just seemed a bit strange (and a bit funny) to me; especially since I'm more used to the American Libertarian/Anarchist type.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 12:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
gimmie gimmie gimmie!

The call of the new entitlement minded anarchist.

The call of the new entitlement-minded capitalist, too.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 12:25 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geezer,

I'm going to wait for Frem to weigh in on "anarchists." A quick wiki reveals that Black Bloc is a tactic, and not a group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

So it's hard to say who they are until we know who they are, and then what they say. Anyone can use black bloc apparently, including socialists, and anyone can cause chaos.

If you read the whole Guardian article, you'll find that several of the folks interviewed identifed themselves (although not by their real names) as anarchists, so they apparently think they are.

I realize that there are several flavors of anarchist, but the though of some of them encouraging government welfare and tax law enforcement just seemed a bit strange (and a bit funny) to me; especially since I'm more used to the American Libertarian/Anarchist type.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

True enough. That's why I refer to the Tea Party followers as "teabaggers". After all, that's what several of the teabaggers identify themselves as, so they apparently think they're teabaggers. Some of them even think they're teabagging for Jesus.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 12:32 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
gimmie gimmie gimmie!

The call of the new entitlement minded anarchist.

The call of the new entitlement-minded capitalist, too.

Stop trolling my posts, dude.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
If you read the whole Guardian article, you'll find that several of the folks interviewed identifed themselves (although not by their real names) as anarchists, so they apparently think they are.

I read the whole article looking for precisely that self-identification. I didn't see it at all.

Maybe I missed it? Please paste and quote if I did? Thanks.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 2:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Seems to me several things are clear

There were large marches to protest government funding cuts. The organisers intented them to be peaceful. The marches were disrupted by a group or groups of militants who have been called both anarchists and fascist thugs, who smashed property and targetted police. I find it somewhat amusing that Fortnum and Mason's was a target.

I seem to remember that London marches often end this way, sabotaged by radical groups who want to act out a bit of ultra violence. It doesn't seem to matter what the march is about, the groups have that 'smash the powers that be' kind of mentality. That being said, media tends to focus on this stuff. I remember huge the huge disarmanent marches in the 80's, that were filled with children and church groups and yet the news would always show the one or two idiots with the black flag who put a brick through a shop window. The headlines were always 'violent mobs riot in city'. Made me learn to distrust most everything I saw on television news and about 50% of print news.

The Daily Telegraph is a conservative newspaper, isn't it? That is the kind of reporting you would expect from them.
ve

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 2:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Honestly I doubt it, Anarchists giving a fuck about specific Government policies rather than decrying the notion of Government itself are generally just yahoos who don't understand a damn thing about the ideology they happen to be expressing - but that's fairly common in any ideology/theology/etc, I doubt any of them asshats could discuss Kropotkin any more than most religious zealots could intelligently discuss their own supposed texts.

In many cases, it's a matter of young folk emulating the PERCEPTION of Anarchists, as fed to them by the mainstream media, without really understanding just how false a bill of goods they've been sold, or how they are feeding a deliberately false stereotype.

Not that Anarchists aren't capable of violence, but outside of the nihilist sects thereof, it's generally very precisely targeted, completely deniable, and far more vicious yet personal.

Of course, none of that has much to do with "Faction" Anarchists, I see both Anarcho-Capitalist and Socialist-Anarchism flags present in that display, either from the usual ignorant incoherence, or the rather perplexing notion that either of THOSE factions would work together without killing each other....

Most Anarchists hate, hate, HATE the Communists/Socialists - they've not forgotten how they betrayed the whole IDEA of self-rule in Catalonia by licking Fascist jackboots, that was the historical period where the Anarchist flag as a rule went from red/black to straight black, because the "True Colors" of Communists/Socialists are Statism, and so generally in any meeting thereof the blood gets knee deep, you understand ?

As for the Anarcho-Capitalists, well they're bloody hypocrites, not alone in it, mind you, plenty of THAT anywhere else too, but the whole NOTION of "rules for you, and none for me!" kind of opposes the very nature of Anarchism.

Of course, that's the wonder of Anarchism anyways, no one is *required* to agree, and certainly no one else is likely to stick a damn gun down your throat if you don't.

But I figure it as young folk with a less than coherent idea of what the notion is, unwittingly accepting a biased and distorted version of it because even so it fits with what they believe, and no one else has offered them - and as usual with such things, they'll learn, or they'll burn.

And typing with a splinted finger, really, REALLY sucks, not to mention this bloody hurts, ok... have a bit of mercy, willya ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 3:05 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I read the whole article looking for precisely that self-identification. I didn't see it at all.

Maybe I missed it? Please paste and quote if I did? Thanks.

Quote:
Jason Sands, 32, a graduate and local authority IT worker in south London and black bloc veteran, said the ranks of anarchists appeared to be "growing in confidence, skill and numbers". He said there had been an influx of students galvanised by last year's violence at the Conservative party headquarters in Millbank Tower during anti-tuition fees protests and by police tactics used against conventional demonstrators such as kettling.

"It feels good to be part of it," Sands said.

Seems like he's pretty much self-identifiying as an anarchist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 3:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I read the whole article looking for precisely that self-identification. I didn't see it at all.

Maybe I missed it? Please paste and quote if I did? Thanks.

Quote:
Jason Sands, 32, a graduate and local authority IT worker in south London and black bloc veteran, said the ranks of anarchists appeared to be "growing in confidence, skill and numbers". He said there had been an influx of students galvanised by last year's violence at the Conservative party headquarters in Millbank Tower during anti-tuition fees protests and by police tactics used against conventional demonstrators such as kettling.

"It feels good to be part of it," Sands said.

Seems like he's pretty much self-identifiying as an anarchist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Geezer,

No, it doesn't. My dad was a reporter for many many years, and he was always very clear on how to read the media: He said "even when it's in quotes, it's probably a lie, unless they have it on tape. When it's not in quotes, it's because the person most emphatically didn't say it, and the lawyers told the editor to kill the quotes."

Taken in that light, I see that it is out of quotes.

Quote:

...anarchists appeared to be "growing in confidence, skill and numbers"

Subtle, but clear.

He posted this to a site with anarchy in it:

http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=9908

in response to this:

http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=12194

ETA:

Quote:
Originally posted by jason sands: Banned

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 375

Default
Quote:

Originally Posted by rosix: View Post
the mindless drones who have helped the Rothschilds architect the NWO etc. would eventually just fall on their backs and squirm like dead ants, leaving the world free at last once again.

free at last....once again? Are you thinking straight?

Under such circumstances society would probably turn to anarchy and uncontrolled riots in the streets.

Free to riot as they please

Doesn't sound like a rousing endorsement of anarchy from Mr. Sands, whom I don't know from Adam, but the whole story seems a little fishy. It seems there have been a number of "Dole Army hoaxes."
That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 4:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Seems like he's pretty much self-identifiying as an anarchist.

Yeah, sorry, I don't see it.

The kid probably just said, "Our group is growing in confidence... blah blah." And the reporter wrote down, "his group = the anarchists." The big thing was, "anarchists" was not in quotation marks, even though the word's proximity to the rest of the quotation should have included it somehow.

Bottom line, "anarchists" is ascribed by the reporter, and not necessarily claimed by this participant.

Given the inconsistency between what this black bloc group is doing, and what anarchists USUALLY stand for, I am betting the reporter got it wrong.

I think they are black bloc socialists, probably with some left-anarchist sympathies.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 4:38 PM

Consider that the whole thing might be a prank, like the one in Australia.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 4:55 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

What one in Australia?

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
What one in Australia?

The Dole Army.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/stories/s474408.htm

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 5:39 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wow, was that even newsworthy in the US. 'A Current Affair' and Today Tonight would have to be the crappiest shows ever, any excuse to dump on welfare reciprients, single mothers, renters...you know, basically the poorest and most disenfranchised in our society. It's cashbook sensationalist journalism at its worst.

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Sunday, April 3, 2011 8:25 PM