REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mom who didn't give son chemo drugs charged with murder

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 18:10
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Thursday, April 7, 2011 8:26 PM

CANTTAKESKY


http://articles.boston.com/2011-04-06/news/29389192_1_cancer-stricken-
boy-cancer-medications-friedmann


Quote:

LAWRENCE — The doctor who treated a boy who later died after his mother allegedly stopped giving him life-saving medication testified yesterday that she confronted the woman about how she was handling the cancer-stricken boy, but her efforts were in vain.

“I was worried that Jeremy hadn’t received a lot of the medications that I had intended for him to receive, and I was worried about how that conversation would go with his mother,’’ said Dr. Alison Friedmann, a pediatric oncologist at Massachusetts General Hospital who started treating Jeremy Fraser in October 2006 when he was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.

Friedmann said she warned Kristen LaBrie that she was taking her concerns to the state. And when a social worker confronted the boy’s mother, LaBrie denied withholding the medication, saying to do so would be like “pushing him in front of a car,’’ Kate MacDougall, assistant Essex district attorney, said during her opening statements yesterday in LaBrie’s attempted murder trial.

“She’s charged, ladies and gentlemen, in a sense of pushing him in front of that car,’’ MacDougall told the seven-man, seven-woman jury in Lawrence Superior Court. “She didn’t tell anyone she was not giving Jeremy his chemotherapy drugs. Dr. Friedmann made two horrifying discoveries: that the defendant was not filling the prescriptions and that the cancer was back.’’

Friedmann testified that a team of doctors had managed to push Jeremy’s cancer into remission with potent chemotherapy treatments and that she was optimistic, citing an 85 to 90 percent cure rate, that he could be cancer-free with continued treatments over a two-year span. The majority of those treatments, in the form of pills, were to be given by LaBrie. But prosecutors say she failed to fill the prescriptions numerous times in the initial months of treatment.

LaBrie’s attorney, Kevin James, acknowledged that his client stopped giving her son the pills, but argued that she made that decision in an impaired mental state brought on by her grief from watching the potent treatments affect her son and the constant attention that she, a single mother, had to give Jeremy, who was autistic, nonverbal, and not potty-trained.

“Her mental strength weakened, her objectivity waned,’’ James said, and in that condition, “she made a decision to stop giving him medication. The Commonwealth wants to make this tragic mistake a criminal act.’’

LaBrie also faces charges of assault and battery on a disabled person with injury, assault and battery on a child with substantial injury, and reckless endangerment of a child.

--snip--




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Friday, April 8, 2011 6:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

It is curious.

I think if she had refused to give him the medicine openly on religious or philosophical grounds, she might have been protected by the force of law.

I do not know what to think about this. I have mixed feelings. I don't think that a murder conviction will help society or find justice, though. I don't think I would prosecute this case.

--Anthony



Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, April 8, 2011 11:01 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Is life really so precious that we're willing to utterly destroy its quality in order to preserve its quantity ?

Again, I recently watched a friends father die by screaming inches, denied pain relief under the pathetic fig leaf of fear of addiction, lingering in horrible agony for days while the doctors and hospital watched the bills rack up all but rubbing their hands in glee - which will destroy the daughter as well as the father, cause she'll never dig her way clear of the debt.

And for what ?

Chemo has a dark side, believe it.
And it costs over $8000.00 a pop, AND some HMOs are known for diluting the drugs, which mind you cost pennies to make.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, April 8, 2011 4:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Chemo costs? You can't get standard cancer treatment for free?

Sheesh.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 1:23 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Chemo costs? You can't get standard cancer treatment for free?

Sheesh.




Nope, you can't. Not here. That would be "socialism", and saving lives without making enormous profits is "wrong". The rich will gladly pay for their own medications, and the poor are disposable and easily replaceable anyway. That's The American Way™.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Indeed, and thanks to big pharma and the war on (some) drugs - those being any that aren't making big pharma millions, the street level dope dealers and their distributors are making a mint off smuggled canadian prescription drugs, and I don't mean narcotics, I mean common stuff most folk on medicare cannot afford because of various rules bending fuckery which leaves them without coverage despite them having paid for it 20-50 years.

There's something WRONG when you have to hit up the dope man for grammas blood pressure medication, cause over the counter it costs six times what he'll sell it to you for.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


How many of you saw the news item about one of the pharma companies upping the price of a certain drug that drastically improves the survival rates of premature babies and reduced the incidence of premature birth? The old price was around $10-10/dose. The new price is $1500 per dose. The average doses needed for an at-risk pregnancy are 20 doses. So instead of $200-400, the pregnant woman now has to dish out $30,000.

The pharmaceutical company did not invent this drug (Makena). The taxpayers already funded most of the studies required to get FDA approval for KV Pharmaceuticals to sell the drug commercially. They're charging that much because they can. And if your baby's life is on the line, what choice do you have?

As usual, the "socialism" in this country is aimed upwards, ever upwards.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Chemo costs? You can't get standard cancer treatment for free?

Sheesh.




Nope, you can't. Not here. That would be "socialism", and saving lives without making enormous profits is "wrong". The rich will gladly pay for their own medications, and the poor are disposable and easily replaceable anyway. That's The American Way™.




Well I suppose in the end if you have free healthcare, you are only encouraging those stupid poor people to breed more stupid poor people. And then what sort of mess would the world be in? It would be full of poor people.

Oh, hello......

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 10:16 AM

DREAMTROVE



Won't hold up in court. The doctors could have easily circumvented the parent-dosing and would have if they thought it was a matter of life and death. The stuff they give my sister to take home is stuff they think might help, but they don't think it radically alters survival chances.

Chemo in general fits this description. The boy was going to die whether he took the chemo or not, it was just a matter of when.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 10:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


DT, agreed on the chemo.

This article is a little old, but nothing earth-shattering has been happening in the chemo world since, so you know, this is about right.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849

Quote:

RESULTS: The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1% in the USA.

CONCLUSION: As the 5-year relative survival rate for cancer in Australia is now over 60%, it is clear that cytotoxic chemotherapy only makes a minor contribution to cancer survival. ....



So...did absence of chemo really cause his death? It would be very hard to convince me if I were on the jury.

The reason I posted this story is because it got me thinking about the charge of murder. Murder used to be something you did, not something you DIDN'T do. To equate an act of omission to murder, you have to have withheld something so important that 99-100% of the time, withholding it would result in death. Like food. Or life-support.

I am disturbed that they are trying to make the case chemo is on the same level of certainty as food or life-support.

I am concerned about the ever encroaching power of the state-sponsored religion of Medicine.

That's just me.




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Sunday, April 10, 2011 1:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
DT, agreed on the chemo.

This article is a little old, but nothing earth-shattering has been happening in the chemo world since, so you know, this is about right.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849

Quote:

RESULTS: The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1% in the USA.

CONCLUSION: As the 5-year relative survival rate for cancer in Australia is now over 60%, it is clear that cytotoxic chemotherapy only makes a minor contribution to cancer survival. ....



So...did absence of chemo really cause his death? It would be very hard to convince me if I were on the jury.

The reason I posted this story is because it got me thinking about the charge of murder. Murder used to be something you did, not something you DIDN'T do. To equate an act of omission to murder, you have to have withheld something so important that 99-100% of the time, withholding it would result in death. Like food. Or life-support.

I am disturbed that they are trying to make the case chemo is on the same level of certainty as food or life-support.

I am concerned about the ever encroaching power of the state-sponsored religion of Medicine.

That's just me.




I could only find the abstract for that article, which wasn't all that illuminating.

This discussion teases out the issues a bit more. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s1348333.htm

Once you realise that the researcher is a radiologist and is promoting radiation therapy rather than chemo, it kind of paints a different picture.

I guess the issue is whether treatment was withheld consitutes some form of neglect which has led to the death of this child. I think murder is over stated, but from what I can see US laws are quite harsh and punitive. I do believe that a charge of manslaughter might be more appropriate, but even then...it's quite dodgy territory.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:21 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
DT, agreed on the chemo.

This article is a little old, but nothing earth-shattering has been happening in the chemo world since, so you know, this is about right.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630849




Unfortunately, little things can sink an argument, the article is 2004, and the discovery of targeted replication inhibitors in 2005 could be described in a word that I might use, say "earth-shattering." Really. The world of chemo has changed more radically since 2004 than the field of psychiatry or probably even most of medicine since its inception. Words are tricky that way...


Still...

Quote:


So...did absence of chemo really cause his death? It would be very hard to convince me if I were on the jury.

The reason I posted this story is because it got me thinking about the charge of murder. Murder used to be something you did, not something you DIDN'T do. To equate an act of omission to murder, you have to have withheld something so important that 99-100% of the time, withholding it would result in death. Like food. Or life-support.

I am disturbed that they are trying to make the case chemo is on the same level of certainty as food or life-support.

I am concerned about the ever encroaching power of the state-sponsored religion of Medicine.



Agreed.

They've appointed themselves gods. We have our delusional society and our mental cage. Doctor plays angel while the Law plays the devil.

ETA: I know this about Chemo because I've been reading an inordinate amount of it lately.


Magon,

The docs tell me that radiation exists now as a religious ritual performed because there is a vested interest, a staff that does it, equipment makers, etc., but the majority opinion now is that it does more harm than good. Unfortunately, because cancer treatment is an industry and healthcare is regulated, you cannot pick and choose, and so you can't get the potentially life saving chemo without the radiation. That was their opinion.

However, this is not a case of life saving. It's a certainty that the boy would have died. The chemo might have extended his life, on the other hand, it might have shortened it.

For me the problem here is arrogance of the system. It assumes that doctors know more medicine than patients, which is nonsense. It is very rare that I have occasion to meet with a doctor who knows more about an ailment than I do, as I have researched it, as it is my ailment, and so very important to me, and I have roughly the same faculties as he, and it is not very important to him, and neither am I, since he treats on average 20,000 different patients with 4,000 different ailments or so.

All of that said, she was probably wrong about the chemo, but it is not murder. If the doctors thought that the chemo was essential to survival, they would have delivered in patient, because they also do that. When they give you a take home, it's usually because they think you're a responsible adult but also because they feel that this is going to extent the quantity of life by a little at the expense of the quality of life.

In what way is this life saving? If the condition you have gets cured during those extra three months you hang on for in pain. In that case, yes, it's life saving. And that sometimes happens. But not usually, and I think, not here.

Quote:

Friedmann testified that a team of doctors had managed to push Jeremy’s cancer into remission with potent chemotherapy treatments and that she was optimistic, citing an 85 to 90 percent cure rate, that he could be cancer-free with continued treatments over a two-year span. The majority of those treatments, in the form of pills, were to be given by LaBrie. But prosecutors say she failed to fill the prescriptions numerous times in the initial months of treatment


This is CYA.

1) Usually, the Rx for chemo is a guess, and sometimes it's a very good one, but they can come with severe side effects, even fatal ones.

2) nothing that's going to save this boy's life is a chemo pill on prescription. If it works, it's buying him time.

3) All these life-saving treatments come from the infusion center, to wit:

Quote:


Lymphomas are types of cancer derived from lymphocytes, a type of white blood cell. Lymphomas are treated by combinations of chemotherapy, monoclonal antibodies, immunotherapy, radiation, and hematopoietic stem cell transplantation.



4) Her early failures to fill chemo drugs had probably no impact. It's likely that the chemo drugs did as much harm as good anyway. It's the gene therapy and stem cell treatments which almost certainly were infusion treatments which were generating the cures.

5) A 90% success rate on a disease so recently considered 100% fatal is hard to credit, and the docs seem really worries that this case was bringing their survival rate down, so they're passing the blame.

6) Even if you *did* have a 90% survival rate, one in ten is still going to die.

7) Most people who die of cancer experience a remission first. This is no guarantee of anything.

8) Who knows what mistakes the doctors made, they certainly seemed to have fished for one that was made, and maybe the parent made it, maybe not.

9) Who cares if she did? It wasn't her responsibility to see that the essential treatments were delivered, because she's not a medical professional, which is why the essentials are given in the center under IV.

10) Maybe no one made any mistakes. It's an extremely deadly disease and the doctors in their own claims seem to admit quite readily that it can and does kill people.

If you're born with a blood cancer your chances of survival are still basically nil. Part of your own immune system is against you. Even targeted replication inhibitors are not going to help, because they will just shut down your entire immune system, and then you might die of anything. Do we happen to even know what the boy died of directly?

Quote:

According to her:

she did not give him at least five months of chemotherapy medications because the side effects made him so sick she was afraid the treatments would kill him.



Just a guess... she might have been right. If she had given the kids the pills, and the kid had died sooner, no doctor would now be in trouble.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:19 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...the discovery of targeted replication inhibitors in 2005 could be described in a word that I might use, say "earth-shattering."

I thought those started being used in the early 2000's. But the criticism is valid. The meta-analysis was of studies completed by 1998, so the chemo technology they studied was "old." Still, a quick perusal through the literature appears to show only a modest improvement with targeted inhibitors--again, nothing that *I* would call earth-shattering. But I'm hard to impress. ;)






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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:23 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I guess the issue is whether treatment was withheld consitutes some form of neglect which has led to the death of this child. I think murder is over stated, but from what I can see US laws are quite harsh and punitive. I do believe that a charge of manslaughter might be more appropriate, but even then...it's quite dodgy territory.

If they had simply charged her with medical neglect, or even manslaughter, I would understand. I wouldn't cheer it on, but I would understand.

Murder, to me, is really, really reaching.



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Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think she should definitely get charged with something, maybe not willful murder, but man slaughter would suit me here I guess. In my state we are very strict with parents when it comes to faith healing (choosing to not give your kids medicines that would clearly save them and just praying instead). This case is slightly more complicated because cancer is so finicky and the kid very well may died anyways. But the fact that the kid may have died anyways doesn't give the mom a good enough reason to not keep trying. I realize that she was frustrated, if she absolutely couldn't handle it she could have given him to a relative or something who could have taken care of things. There's a part of me that worries (note that I have no evidence of this) that because the boy was nonverbal and possibly hard to look after that the mom might have not tried as hard as she should. Again I reitterate that is just a secret worry and there is no evidence I've seen to support it. I just worry about things like that, you know? And because the boy was nonverbal and had autism it would have been harder for him to express an opinion on the matter.

In short I'm okay with charging her with a crime, should it be willful murder? Probably not, but it should be something that, if convicted, will get her in some sort of trouble. That's how I feel. How old was the kid?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 11, 2011 4:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Just a guess... she might have been right. If she had given the kids the pills, and the kid had died sooner, no doctor would now be in trouble.


Of course not, but SHE might have been(1) - damned if you do, damned if you don't...

S'what happens when conventional medicine is treated as religion, you ask me.

(1) as in accused of giving too much, not enough, not on time, but they'd find *something* in order to shift blame from doctors and the medical establishment, they always do, and honestly I think a lot of their treatments for various disorders are more placebo and rainmaking than anything else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_confidence_tricks#Rainmaker

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, April 11, 2011 4:54 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...the discovery of targeted replication inhibitors in 2005 could be described in a word that I might use, say "earth-shattering."

I thought those started being used in the early 2000's. But the criticism is valid. The meta-analysis was of studies completed by 1998, so the chemo technology they studied was "old." Still, a quick perusal through the literature appears to show only a modest improvement with targeted inhibitors--again, nothing that *I* would call earth-shattering. But I'm hard to impress. ;)



Figure how much I've been reading on this particular topic lately. It's a greater change than any other field of science has gone through recently.

Survival rates and times often don't change much because most people with cancer are very old. They were telling us median age is over 70, You get someone who is 92, and they get cancer, you're not going to be able to increase their survival chances by much.

Of the many drugs they give my sister predate 2005, or are even relatives of drugs that predate 2005.

It doesn't defeat your point, just saying that you gotta be careful when making blanket statements. The chemo of today is nothing like the chemo of 2000, which was nothing like the chemo of 1970. They just keep the name because the populous is familiar with it.

Chemo just means a chemical. They used to feed random toxins. Now it's some sophisticated anti-cancer drugs. When the new ones are approved, eventually they'll probably be called chemo as well.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, April 11, 2011 9:26 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
It's a greater change than any other field of science has gone through recently.

Interesting perspective. I'll give it a closer look.

Quote:

Survival rates and times often don't change much because most people with cancer are very old.
Excellent point.

Quote:

It doesn't defeat your point, just saying that you gotta be careful when making blanket statements.
Fair enough.



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Monday, April 11, 2011 9:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


CT, if you starve a child, is that not murder?

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Monday, April 11, 2011 9:45 AM

BYTEMITE


They discussed the starvation is murder above, and also discussed whether that scenario is different from giving medicine which may or may not guarantee a cure or full-recovery. Now they're discussing whether specific types of medicine may not actually potentially make things worse.

CTS said this:

Quote:

The reason I posted this story is because it got me thinking about the charge of murder. Murder used to be something you did, not something you DIDN'T do. To equate an act of omission to murder, you have to have withheld something so important that 99-100% of the time, withholding it would result in death. Like food. Or life-support.

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Tuesday, April 12, 2011 5:59 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I saw on the news today that she was convicted of willful murder. I think a lesser charge should have been applied like man slaughter, she should get in some trouble, but not this much. Was she from somewhere else by any chance, was she new to America and so didn't understand the rules here? Did she have family who could have helped? Anyways, thought I'd update this.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:04 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
CT, if you starve a child, is that not murder?

Yes. Yes, it is.

Thank you Byte for highlighting where I said starvation would be one of the few examples of omission being equal to murder.



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Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:10 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I saw on the news today that she was convicted of willful murder.

Thanks for letting us know.

I looked it up, and it looks like she was convicted of attempted murder.

"A 38-year-old Beverly mother was convicted today of attempted murder and other charges for withholding cancer medications from her son, who eventually died from his illness....

...LaBrie was also convicted of assault and battery on a disabled person with injury, assault and battery on a child with substantial injury, and reckless endangerment of a child."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2011/04/jury_in_kristen
.html




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