HAPPY EASTER and Pragmatic government by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

HAPPY EASTER and Pragmatic government

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, April 29, 2011 13:05
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Saturday, April 23, 2011 6:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I'm sure y'all are busy this Easter weekend... family breakfasts and brunches and dinners and all. I hope that everyone has a nice time celebrating- if nothing else- the coming of spring and the joy of renewal, and that we take this time to reconnect with our families and ourselves- happily and playfully.

There is a lot of discussion about the role of "government" (Why not the role of "corporations?" I wonder. But I digress...) and opinion seems to trending towards the extremes: If you're not for "no government" then you MUST be for "all government".

But what about "some government"? It seems to me there are many problems that can be addressed at the individual level. But there are many problems that simply CANNOT be addressed by individuals. And the bigger the problem, the more individuals have to become involved. Isn't that what "government" should be?

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 6:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My most intimate recent experience with government was in requesting their intervention on a small scale.

The reason I am a Libertarian is because I do believe that a government is necessary to preserve rights and liberties. There are times when people come into conflict. Without the presence of government, it will always come down to the strongest getting their way.

The flip side, of course, is that the government can become the strongman getting its way, (or acting as muscle for its supporters) instead of protecting the rights of the people like it's supposed to.

Finding the balance is hard.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:40 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Heheh, I am sitting here in between puttering about on the net and checking my mail with a large bag of plastic eggs and a bucket full of small party-favor kind of toys....

See, at site three we have a fekkload of bunnies due to our security rounds driving off their natural predators, and the residents kids are all manner of squee about it cause they're less afraid of humans than usual and won't flee unless you get pretty close, so of course the easter-connection gets made...

And last year one of the kids asked me if they were easter bunnies, and I said yes, so he asked if they were going to lay eggs, and I said maybe...
And then planted a bunch of candy filled eggs nearby the places where I knew they had kids, that night while on rounds, which was a big hit.

This year, party favors, since wet weather conditions make me leery about candy.

So does this make ME the Easter Bunny ?
(I am so gonna find me some bunny ears to wear tonight, and yanno what, I can get AWAY with that.)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BunnyEarsLawyer

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 8:56 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

That's a good point, and I do find myself every now and again applying 'Kentucky windage' to my politics. In other words, I may aim a mite further right or left of my target to compensate for the political currents in hope of hitting a favorable position. In general, I am more concerned over being 'over governed' than 'under governed' but I do believe some government is a necessity.

Being red green colorblind, hunting eggs could get a mite frustrating, but I am usually the egg hider nowadays for my little half brothers. I enjoy finding the silliest places possible to hide them.

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

There is a lot of discussion about the role of "government" (Why not the role of "corporations?" I wonder. But I digress...) and opinion seems to trending towards the extremes: If you're not for "no government" then you MUST be for "all government".

I've always talked about the proper function of govt, which clearly indicates ( at least to those w/ a room temp IQ and above ) that govt IS a necessity, and that the Founders (of at least the United States ) went to such trouble as to define for us what those functions were.

The " all or nothing " cries are mostly from those who are in love w/ big, massive govt, which will provide womb to tomb security, and we should never mind at what price.

Pragmatic govt ? Sure, if you'd actually live up to such standards and hold true to the concept of what IS pragmatic.

Pentagon Art: $600,000 Gurgling Toad Sculpture

A $600,000 frog sculpture that lights up, gurgles "sounds of nature" and carries a 10-foot fairy girl on its back could soon be greeting Defense Department employees who plan to start working at the $700 million Mark Center in Alexandria, Va. this fall. That is unless a new controversy over the price tag of the public art doesn't torpedo the idea.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:10 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It is always interesting to see someone's deep concern over the public well-being compared to a gurgling toad.

I may not agree with all of Signy's positions, but I at least admire the human empathy that spawns them.

There are few here who would draw a comparison between Signy's desperate desire to save people from death and ruination... and a gurgling toad statue.

But you managed it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 1:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

You see no connection between the govt spending $ 600,000 of our tax money on a piece of art which few will ever see, save for those who work at a defense building, and a discussion of what makes for a pragmatic government ?

Seriously?

Then we're FAR in worse shape than I thought.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Please forgive me if I mistook your purpose.

I misunderstood you to be taking a jab at those who were promoting government spending for things other than animated frog statues.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, April 24, 2011 2:12 AM

DREAMTROVE

I like it. I think it's a good way to spent the tax payers money. It's a pentagon budget, right? And the result didn't kill anyone? That's a positive turn for how they use their dollars.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 24, 2011 2:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I like it. I think it's a good way to spent the tax payers money. It's a pentagon budget, right? And the result didn't kill anyone? That's a positive turn for how they use their dollars.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

I think the art could exist w/ out any funding by public $.

I think the $ could have been better served. Think of the Vets who could used those funds, or the kevlar vests which could be sent to Afghanistan...

If the "DEFENSE" dept needs to waste our tax $ on this, then perhaps they don't need that $ in the first place.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 24, 2011 8:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

With the kids all gone, we don’t “celebrate” Easter, tho’ I’m most DEFINITELY celebrating Spring! It’s raining again today, and was a couple of days ago and is forecast for tomorrow...this is SO weird; usually by April our rains are long over with. Which is not to say I’m not enjoying it thoroughly. But Easter, eh, to me it’s just another excuse for filling the aisle left in stores to be filled with holiday crap. The ONLY thing it means to me is that for a while previous to it, See’s sells Scotchmallow Eggs. I love Scotchmallow Eggs, and stock up in the weeks before Easter...

Frem, we saw a bunch of bicyclists yesterday, and one of them WAS wearing a pair of ears; on his helmet! I cracked that I hoped it was a woman...and it wasn’t. I think that’s silly, nothing more, just remembered it when I read your post.

Anthony, sometimes you are SO damned cute:

Quote:
There are few here who would draw a comparison between Signy's desperate desire to save people from death and ruination... and a gurgling toad statue.

But you managed it.

Never stop, PLEASE!

On the other hand, I agree with DT...anything the Pentagon spends their hugely inflated budget on that doesn’t kill anyone is a good thing. They’re gonna get the money, whether we like it or not, so what the hell... That they don’t need the dollars is a silly argument, given those in Congress who adore them will always make sure they get them.

I'm one of those who believe some government safety nets are a good thing, but that there is too much regulation by the government of our lives. I'd go so far as to say I approve of government regulation of those who would put all our lives at stake for the benefit of profits, i.e., BP, plants spewing chemicals, food safety, etc. Nonetheless, I get categorized as one in favor of really big government, socialism, etc., all the time, so I'd say it's the mentality of many here and their willingness to think in black-and-white terms, more than it is what people actually believe.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 24, 2011 1:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Hehehe, eggs planted - it didn't rain on my shift, but afterwords, however I planned for that and sealed the eggs with some nontoxic variant on rubber cement.

And there were four bunnies hopping around by the docks last night too, which I took for a good omen, as hopefully old man winter will let go, finally - we had snow (a lil bit) last week, but the temp hit 72F yesterday, so one can hope...

Pollen count is gonna suck though, hay fever is no fun at all.

And of course, now....
Clearance Rack Easter Candy!!!!
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Teeehehehehehe.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Happy Easter to all, I hope everyone had a nice day today, I spent it with my grandma, dad, aunt, cousins and uncle, it was pretty good. We stayed with my grandma last night and thus went to her church this morning.

I'm for some government, not all or nothing, I think most people would say they are for some, few people would admit to being for all or nothing.

Its been abnormally rainy/cold here too Niki, well I guess the rain is a bit above normal, but the real problem has been the cold. Fri. and Sat. were amazing, like it should be right now, but today? Cold and rainy, again. I love See's too, I've got some here from my mother for Easter.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 25, 2011 6:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rainy-cool here too, and also back in my hometown (diagonally across the nation from where I am now). That gave me a chance to plant my garden w/o the poor things going into shock from heat: 3 tomatoes, 4 peppers, watermelon, spaghetti squash, zucchini, japanese eggplant, all kinds of herbs, lettuces, and nasturtiums (edible flowers have a peppery taste and make salads pretty), and a decent-sized patch of volunteer cosmos. Still have some space left over: Any suggestions?

I hid an Easter basket for our dd.... haven't done that in YEARS, but it was fun. Went out to see a movie. Good time had by all.

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Monday, April 25, 2011 4:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

If they'll grow, anything from this family will help keep the pesty-bugs away, Siggy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrum

-F

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Monday, April 25, 2011 6:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

This is to some extent related to another thread - and this one. At one point Frem you said that calling the cops was simply making use of a service for which you've paid. Maybe you were trying to make AnthonyT feel better, but your position doesn't hold up. The police are more than a service, more than picking up the trash (though picking up the trash is also not as straightforward as you might think.)

What gives the police a legitimate reason to intervene? It's that they are acting to uphold a law that makes it a crime to threaten someone. If you accept the legitimate intervention of police, you accept the legitimacy of laws, to which all people are or should be (hopefully) equally subject.

And all people should be subject to those laws whether or not they agree with them. If adherence to laws is left up to individual choice, then they lose their value. As an example, I may disagree with the noise ordinance as being unduly restrictive, but I may also disagree with the rape laws as also being unduly restrictive, depending on my mindset.

If the police are there not as an agent of society and its laws, then they are a private force for sale to the highest bidder. In that case, anyone with lots of money will always enforce their will over others.

The point of pragmatic government is finding the balance. Between for example excessively restrictive laws and the rule of rich.

Also, I think - in a democracy especially - people on the whole are responsible for the state of their government over time. THIS is what the American people want.

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Monday, April 25, 2011 11:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Placeholder Post: Good questions, Kiki - to which you'll get good answers, but I am just getting off a full shift and barely have time to check my email before haring off to go handle something and then off to some hearings today to put my boot to the ass of local politicos, so... in a while, heh?

-F

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Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Uggh, rough day so far, getting back to this now.

Actually Kiki, I'm workin that from a different angle than you think.
I do not actually agree with, nor accept police or law legitimacy, exactly, and in fact think of them as the primary threat to liberty, representing the "standing army" the founders feared moreso than the actual military.
(See Also: Roots, 722 Police as Standing Army)
http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Thing is, whether or not you agree, whether or not you did so voluntarily, you *DID* pay for their services - in my eyes that's prettymuch a protection racket, but even with a protection racket, when something other than THEM does harm or threatens to, unto your person or property, you make an issue of it, yes ?

I mean, if you paid off the Mafia, and the Yakuza came around making threats and demands, you'd be throwing a hissy at the Mafia, or conversely, cutting a deal with the Yakuza to protect you FROM the Mafia, but still, it's not a question of legitimacy as much as the fact that you PAID FOR THAT SERVICE, whether by consent or not, and since they have manipulated the law to often be sole provider and a complete monopoly, they can damn well deliver the service you paid for, even as halfassed as they usually do, it beats nothing - especially since if you *DO* handle the matter yourself they're gonna come hating on YOU, the police as a rule hate, hate, hate self-defense cause eventually it leads to the question of WHY WE NEED THEM.

That said, there is a place for em, I sure as hell don't want to haul the perps to central booking myself, and see them as more of a social janitorial squad than anything else, cause most of the time they show up AFTER it all goes down to clean up the mess, yes ?

The thing is, perceieved legitimacy - cause for a fact, they ARE more or less a goon squad for sale to the highest bidder - if you're a corporation who has, say, bought yourself some zoning ordinances to keep other companies out of the market, who's enforcing that ?
Or look at Union History and how often the Police/Military was called in as reinforcements against striking workers, when NOT ONE TIME IN HISTORY, have they come in to defend those folk from corporate strikebreakers.

So they ARE goons for hire - in fact the USDOJ was built entirely out of Pinkerton strikebreakers and mercs, to the point where some folk safely out of range felt the need to change the law to prevent that level of exploitation and abuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency#Gover
nment_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Pinkerton_Act
(I note for the record that Blackwater/Xe, Triple Canopy, DynCorp and others are all in violation of this, but no one else seems to much care, especially not those in charge of enforcing it.)

When those enforcing the law are not themselves subject to it, it's an act of abuse no matter what - something which has raised its head locally in a nasty fashion this Thursday past, you see, directed energy weapons such as stunguns and tasers are illegal in Michigan, and the law makes NO provision for any exceptions, therefore every goddamn cop who has one is technically guilty of a felony, or multiple felonies if they have used one.
But while they REFUSE to make a common sense exemption for YOU, the lords in blue get one by default ?
I call bullshit.
(A judge has filed Constitutional Challenge on the ban, mind you)

So no, I don't accept whatever their direct legitimacy, but still, I paid for their services whether I wanted to or not, and they have exploited and manipulated the law (See also: MI Public Act 330 of 1968) to reduce or eliminate competition, so they can damn well put up what we paid for...

And that leads to what I do, since they often DO NOT provide the services they were paid for, all too often seeking their own profit and glorification at the expense of the community, predatory traffic enforcement, roadside shakedowns, data theft (See also: MI State Police, Cellphones), asset forfeiture abuses, and enforcing laws selectively or in direct contravention to their purpose, such as Bouchards harrassment of the medical marijuana folk, because HE thinks it should be illegal, so in effect "enforcing" laws that have not been broken - much like arresting you for drunk driving while you're sitting on the porch, that one.

So when they do NOT protect your community, when they instead actively prey on it, how are they so different from a street gang ?

Part of why these sites hired us was in fact to protect them FROM the police - case in point, this is private fucking property, and yet before we took on the contract when they were short of quota or bored, they would come in here and snoop around checking license plates to see if they could ticket folk for being out of date, or if someone had wants and warrants, or just looking for some unlocked car they could drop a baggie of throwdown weed in and say it was "in plain sight" leading to a forfeiture, bullshit like that...
Which they no longer pull, cause if they've not been specifically called, and do not have a warrant, I *will* throw them the hell out of here, by force if necessary - my contract is with the property OWNER, personally, so they cannot even make the case I don't have express authorisation cause I do.
There was a bit of contention over that initially, but these days we do have a sort of arms-length detente with the local law enforcement - they need not waste effort patrolling here, they're unwanted and unwelcome anyway, and if we *DO* bring them in, it's a no-bullshit thing and they will respond rather more promptly than otherwise.

And if someone HERE needs assistance, they call us, first.
Because WE will not shake you down, run you for wants/warrants, search you or your apartment, nose around for something to fuck with YOU about before ever eventually getting around to your problem, that kinda thing is WHY folks in many communities will not call the police, cause in their annoyance at being called away from lucrative looting (traffic, forfeiture, etc) they tend to take it out on the folks who called them and only reluctantly and petulantly do the job.

Which brings us back around to the question of legitimacy.
Factually, I have ZERO legal authority over these people - so why do they listen to me, even when I ask them to do things they might not want, or not do things they might want ?
Sure, one could make a case that if one pays me no mind that means eventually dealing with the property management or the local law, and with some security personnel that may well be the case, but I consider those people assholes, just so you know.

No, they listen to me, because they know I am trying to keep things as pleasant and safe as possible for EVERYONE here, including them, and that I am NOT just pushing them around or being a jerk, but rather going for the least harm and hassle in solving an issue before it gets out of hand - but mostly BECAUSE THEY TRUST ME.
A trust which I have earned via professional appearance, demeanor and conduct, in accordance with what are called the Peelian Principles, posted on my office wall here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles
(In fact I have some concerns about that level of trust, and accountability, I could lead a conga line of circus clowns through here at 3am and nobody would so much as question it, that bothers me - no so much that I myself would exploit it, but one should never place so much trust without proper accountability!)

So in essence I have EARNED that legitimacy by right-of-conduct, rather than government guns to the head telling folk "Or Else!" - which is a damn different thing.

All that said, in Anthonys situation....
What gave them the right, legitimate reason, to intervene - is that he asked them to, a service he paid for, voluntarily or not, but chose to make use of instead of taking action himself and the risk of finding himself on the other end of that transaction, no matter how justified his action might have been.

When it comes down to nasty situations we have little control over, despite moral objections it's always a sensibly realistic move to get the big guns on YOUR side of the confrontation, especially in a world where the rule of law is just a thin gloss over naked force - which is all Government is in the end anyways.

And if you don't believe that, try holding Government and it's servants to the same standards of law which are applied to us, and you will shortly be convinced, quite firmly - provided you survive.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:31 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I think the $ could have been better served. Think of the Vets who could used those funds, or the kevlar vests which could be sent to Afghanistan...

But it wouldn't. Protecting the troops is a talking point. If they ever actually do it, they won't have the talking point anymore. It's like what happens to the GOP if it ever solves the abortion problem?

My general take is that there are a lot of *worse* ways the tax dollars could be spent, and govt. tends to find them. This artist probably made a bundle, and hopefully he or she went out and spent that bundle on a house or a boat or something that employed a lot of people and got something done. Beats another bomb to blow something up or another bureaucrat to push another pencil (err, sorry.) But you know what I mean.

Quote:
If the "DEFENSE" dept needs to waste our tax $ on this, then perhaps they don't need that $ in the first place.

Of course not, but that's not really how it's decided. It's all based on the monetary policy anyway. Lending is increased to up the debt to up the payment to tax the people to drain the excess resources to prevent the people form becoming independent, and then those tax dollars are paid back to the debt, and new money is loaned for the next fiscal year.

If you really wanted to solve the problem, you'd have to do something fairly radical along the Ron Paul lines and ditch the fiscal policy system in favor of something more stable and less easy to manipulate.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

How old is your daughter Signe?

Hey Frem, does your child rescuing establishment still opperate, as in do they still go out and rescue kids and do they still have a place where they look after them and help them for a while? Or is that all done?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:33 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh VI/CoTL still exists, but that's in the hands of Justin, my successor, and the battles are waged these days with lawyers and paperwork, which some days I wonder whether is any kind of improvement.

And since it doesn't need secrecy or obfuscation anymore it's become something closer in practice to a clearinghouse-coordination system for the efforts of so many involved who would otherwise be flailing around independently, putting folks in touch with resources, all that kind of thing, on an administrative/legal level.

The days of kicking in the door and trashing the place are prettymuch gone, since the places that NEEDED that treatment are for the most part gone, and those that remain cannot be handled that way without calling down the might of the State, since the few holdouts are either State run or religious in nature, and it's the latter I am currently sawing the supports out from under, one of which is the cashflow of tax money into the AoG coffers via TeenChallenge, but that's waged on a more subversive level as well.

As far as helping and supporting victims, there's kind of a sub-network of the foster care system consisting of adults who we did help, who now pass down the favor by caring for others as they were cared for, and so on and so forth.

Occasionally I might pop in to give some advice, or knock some sense into Justin, the latter being over disposing of a freaks tactical guide cause he was so appalled, without READING the damn thing to figure counters to them, just cause it's horrific and offensive doesn't mean you can't turn it against em, meh.

But for the most part I stay out of it, he and the folks in operations nowadays kinda resent my "meddling" anyways cause imma throwback barbarian in their opinion, and my methods don't really have a place in the fight so much anymore - although my presence *IS* a handy threat of what might happen if negotiations should fail.

Of course, I did offer to go collect Ariana Goldboldo by force, but her family rejected that offer, preferring to have their day in court, despite that court never once obeying it's own rules, and ignoring all the evidence that the State has completely screwed this up in ways unimaginable...
(Maryanne produced the original signed agreement over the medication clearly indicating she could at any time take the child off it without repercussions - that ALONE makes the case, but noooo)

At this point though, it's more a matter of still existing than actually DOING anything, for me, on that front - and I have enough local wrangling to keep me damn busy anyways.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, April 29, 2011 1:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I like it. I think it's a good way to spent the tax payers money. It's a pentagon budget, right? And the result didn't kill anyone? That's a positive turn for how they use their dollars.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

I think the art could exist w/ out any funding by public $.

I think the $ could have been better served. Think of the Vets who could used those funds, or the kevlar vests which could be sent to Afghanistan...

If the "DEFENSE" dept needs to waste our tax $ on this, then perhaps they don't need that $ in the first place.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

By golly, you MIGHT actually be coming around to a rational way of thinking. Now if you could just figure out that the "defense" department didn't need trillions of our tax dollars for an offensive war in Iraq, we'd REALLY be getting somewhere!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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