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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
"Israel was nine miles wide"
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:35 PM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:On the website of Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs there is a map -- with a message. The map itself is a basic display of how regional borders looked before the Six Day War in 1967. The message is in the distances drawn from those borders to major Israeli cities. For example, it's noted that the distance from what was in 1967 the armistice line with Jordan to the Israeli city of Netanya on the Mediterranean was 9 miles; to Beersheeba, 10 miles; and to Tel Aviv, 11 miles. The city of Ashkelon was 7 miles from the edge of the Gaza Strip, then under Egyptian rule. The point is a simple one: Israel was virtually impossible to defend; any aggressor would try to cut it in half. Read this story in Arabic That's just what the Arab armies tried to achieve in 1967. On the eve of the war, the Egyptian newspaper al Akhbar noted: "Under the terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, coordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two at Qalqilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only 12 kilometres (7 miles) wide." It's a point that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stressed at his White House meeting with President Barack Obama last week. "Remember that before 1967, Israel was all of 9 miles wide, half the width of the Washington beltway," he said. "And these were not the boundaries of peace, they were the boundaries of repeated wars because the attack on Israel was so attractive from them." His choice of the word "boundaries" may not have been accidental, because in 1967 Israel had no agreed borders with its Arab neighbors. They were instead armistice lines agreed to in 1949 after the division of Palestine. (Internationally-recognized borders with Jordan and Egypt have since been agreed upon.) The Six Day War rendered those armistice lines redundant. At the end of May 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan were massing troops and armor within striking distance of Israel. Egypt had closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. On June 5, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack that destroyed much of the Egyptian air force. In the days that followed, Israeli forces captured all of Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan, the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula and Gaza from Egypt. Suddenly, Israel had some "strategic depth." For a time, that altered Israel's military doctrine -- meaning that a pre-emptive first strike was no longer its only option. The October 1973 war showed that Israel was capable of absorbing a first strike and retaliating. But Ariel Sharon, when he became defense minister in 1981, argued that the modernization of Arab armies and their possession of surface-to-surface missiles had cancelled out the benefits of "strategic depth." He argued that Israel could not absorb a first strike and should be ready to launch preventive and pre-emptive strikes against potential threats. The same argument is made by many Israeli strategists today, in relation to a potential nuclear threat from Iran. Successive Israeli leaders have rejected a return to the pre-1967 boundaries, starting with Golda Meir in 1969, who said it would be irresponsible for any Israeli government to support such a plan. Former Foreign Minister Yigal Allon wrote in 1976 that Israel needed defensible borders "which could enable the small standing army units of Israel's defensive force to hold back the invading Arab armies until most of the country's reserve citizen army could be mobilized." When he was prime minister, Menachem Begin said it would be national suicide for Israel to retreat to its pre-1967 borders. And in 2004, President George W. Bush promised then-Israeli Prime Minister Sharon a "steadfast (U.S.) commitment to Israel's security, including secure, defensible borders." Even so, the international community has never recognized Israel's claims to any territory beyond the pre-1967 armistice lines.
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:52 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: So why Obama is pushing them, while I appreciate him being harder on them (something few Presidents have been), is wrong on these two issues. I think they have valid points.
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:18 PM
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:11 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: (I saw the movie and loved it. Cable is replaying it over and over, as they do every movie they get, and I keep watching it--just for the special effects and only until the last half hour, which is boring and overdone. But damn, watching LA slide into the ocean, Las Vegas self-destruct and Yellowstone go sky high, it's great!)
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:23 PM
NEWOLDBROWNCOAT
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: But damn, watching LA slide into the ocean,
Thursday, May 26, 2011 1:36 AM
Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:26 AM
DREAMTROVE
Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:12 AM
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:54 AM
Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:14 PM
Quote: The charter speaks for itself. It calls for destruction of a member state of the UN, in violation of the UN charter. Nonetheless, the PLO was subsequently given observer status in the UN. The major and noteworthy features of both the 1964 and 1968 versions of the charter are: 1. Declaration of intent to destroy Israel and "liberate" all of Palestine: Article 2:Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit. Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will. 2. Defiance of UN General Assembly Resolution 181, which called for partition of Palestine: Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination. The above is especially instructive given the Palestinian insistence on "international legitimacy." 3. Denial of the historic connection of the Jews to the land: Article 20: ...Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. The above claim has been seconded by attempts of pro-Palestinian academics to erase or deny archeological and other evidence of Jewish habitation in Jerusalem and elsewhere in ancient times. For some reason, US President Clinton was surprised when PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat denied that Jews had lived in the land in ancient times. There was no occasion for surprise, as it is an article of the Palestinian charter and is central to the Palestinian national credo. 4. Denial of Jewish peoplehood and of the right to self-determination of the Jewish people: Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong. This statement should be borne in mind when considering the outraged and self righteous protests by Palestinian Arabs when some Israelis deny that there is a Palestinian people or that there was a Palestinian people before 1948.... http://www.mideastweb.org/plocha.htm
Friday, May 27, 2011 2:31 PM
Friday, May 27, 2011 2:42 PM
Friday, May 27, 2011 2:50 PM
Friday, May 27, 2011 2:56 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: They're an "alley"? Really? Crassic.
Friday, May 27, 2011 3:34 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: They're an "alley"? Really? Crassic. Nope. They're an ally. Anytime you want to join the big boy discussion, feel free. Until then, bugger off.
Friday, May 27, 2011 3:36 PM
Friday, May 27, 2011 3:47 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: You work 12 hr days, then come home and type error free.
Quote: And only when you start discussing the TOPICS,instead of picking out meaningless little typos, then you can sit at the adults table.
Friday, May 27, 2011 4:00 PM
Friday, May 27, 2011 4:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: You've made typos before, so you just made a liar out of yourself. Congrats.
Friday, May 27, 2011 4:20 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: You've made typos before, so you just made a liar out of yourself. Congrats.
Friday, May 27, 2011 4:30 PM
Saturday, May 28, 2011 2:37 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: I have no vested interest in Israel per se, other than they're an ally to the USA. It's my American patriotism that leads me to side w/ Israel over those who openly state they want to destroy them. Which side having the better weapons isn't the issue. If anything, it backs up my view that Israel SHOULD be supported by not just the US, but the West in general. If the Pals put down their weapons, there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons, there'd be genocide.
Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:14 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Monday, May 30, 2011 10:51 AM
Monday, May 30, 2011 11:06 AM
Monday, May 30, 2011 11:30 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Thursday, June 2, 2011 4:44 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:09 PM
Friday, June 3, 2011 12:04 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Niki FWIW, rather late, but I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true.
Quote: Bush is for torture? Then Rap is for torture. Bush says there are WMDs? Then Rap believes there are WMDs. The Right-Wing-Voice-of-the-Moment says the media is liberal? Then Rap knows it's liberal.
Quote: He has this disconnected moment-to-moment belief system depending on the messenger of the moment. And viola - that's how his notions crash head-on into his -other- notions. And he ends up criticizing Obama for not being liberal enough.
Quote: The reason why he doesn't recognize himself as an irrational believer is that Rap prides himself on not being trailer-park-*religious*-trash. What he fails to realize is that one can be religious - ie slavish to an authority - about all sorts of things. In his case, Reagan is god, trickle-down is bible, and conservatives have seen the light and hold the truth.
Quote: He believes unthinkingly what he hears, as long as it's said by an authority he likes. He is the definition of an RWA.
Quote: And like any true believer, not only will facts fail to convince him, they will make him believe even more strongly than before (How facts backfire). It is worse than useless to engage him in debate, it makes his fact-free life even more untethered to this world. Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail.
Friday, June 3, 2011 2:36 AM
KPO
Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.
Friday, June 3, 2011 1:11 PM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo: I'm with Mike on this, Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces. So Israel might be taking a small risk with these more vulnerable borders (1967 lines adjusted via land-swaps), but these are the kind of risks that will have to be taken to achieve peace. Or they can be used as excuses to duck the whole issue, not meet the Palestinians in the middle, and preserve the status quo - as Netanyahu is doing. Niki - yes, staunch support for Israel is the main reason why America is consistently hated in Muslim countries, in my estimation. Solve the Middle East conflict and Islamic radicalism decreases dramatically across the globe. It's not personal. It's just war.
Friday, June 3, 2011 1:16 PM
Quote:Every Democrat in D.C. said there was WMD in Iraq, back when Clinton was in office.
Friday, June 3, 2011 1:19 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Every Democrat in D.C. said there was WMD in Iraq, back when Clinton was in office. Cites? Do you have ANY evidence to back such in idiotic and patently ridiculous claim? Of course you don't. You're a Republican. You don't need evidence to believe the amazingly stupid shit you believe.
Friday, June 3, 2011 1:32 PM
Quote: kpo wrote: Friday, June 03, 2011 02:36 Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces.
Friday, June 3, 2011 1:36 PM
Friday, June 3, 2011 2:24 PM
Friday, June 3, 2011 2:37 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: kpo wrote: Friday, June 03, 2011 02:36 Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces. That's a pretty naive assessment of the situation. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Friday, June 3, 2011 3:24 PM
Friday, June 3, 2011 5:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Wow. Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking.
Friday, June 3, 2011 5:41 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious.
Friday, June 3, 2011 5:52 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: How is it you haven't died of stupidity yet?
Friday, June 3, 2011 6:11 PM
Sunday, June 5, 2011 8:18 AM
Quote:Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious. The issue is one of tactical advantages, not merely the end result.
Quote:And you think there's no way Israel would be attacked by conventional forces , even though they have nukes ? Recent history over the past 40 years would suggest otherwise.
Quote:Israel might be taking a small risk with these more vulnerable borders (1967 lines adjusted via land-swaps), but these are the kind of risks that will have to be taken to achieve peace.
Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:08 AM
Quote: I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true. ... I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true. ... He believes unthinkingly what he hears, as long as it's said by an authority he likes. He is the definition of an RWA. And like any true believer, not only will facts fail to convince him, they will make him believe even more strongly than before (How facts backfire). It is worse than useless to engage him in debate, it makes his fact-free life even more untethered to this world. Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail.
Quote: why do republicans keep bring this up, as a way to deflect their culpability in this blunder? The whole world thought that there were wmd's, but this batch of dunderheads were so hot to go to war that they elevated it to an eminent danger. Mushroom clouds I believe was the catch phrase that they chose to use to sell it to the public.
Quote: Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture: The term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: In order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality. Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents. Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions. Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose. Torture shall also be understood to be the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish. The concept of torture shall not include physical or mental pain or suffering that is inherent in or solely the consequence of lawful measures, provided that they do not include the performance of the acts or use of the methods referred to in this article. 18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control (2)“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from— the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; the threat of imminent death; or the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; 92 tapes were destroyed by the CIA in November 2005 after a report by Inspector General John L. Helgerson’s office determined that they depicted "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, as defined by the international Convention Against Torture".
Quote: Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible.
Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:50 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: You seem to be about a million short. You said EVERY Democrat in DC said there were WMD. Every single one. "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 Right there, you have one Democrat saying we're going to DENY Iraq the capacity to DEVELOP WMD. That's a long way from saying that he's GOT WMD, which is what you claim every single Democrat in DC said. There's Clinton himself, not saying it. Your pants are down, clown.
Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:56 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious. The issue is one of tactical advantages, not merely the end result.
Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:02 AM
Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:10 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: The “water boarding isn’t torture” thing? I can’t resist:Quote: Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture: The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture 18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)
Quote: Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture: The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture 18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)
Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:33 AM
Quote:The text of the Convention was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1984[1] and, following ratification by the 20th state party,[2] it came into force on 26 June 1987.[1] 26 June is now recognised as the International Day in Support of Torture Victims, in honour of the Convention. As of September 2010, the Convention had 147 parties
Quote:The undersigned Plenipotentiaries of the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference held at Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949, for the purpose of establishing a Convention for the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, have agreed as follows:
Quote:The Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture (IACPPT) is an international human rights instrument, created in 1985 within the Western Hemisphere Organization of American States and intended to prevent torture and other similar activities. The Inter-American Convention entered into force on February 28, 1987, and, as of 2010, 18 nations are party to it, with another two having signed but not yet ratified.
Quote: is the treaty that established the International Criminal Court (ICC). It was adopted at a diplomatic conference in Rome on 17 July 1998[5][6] and it entered into force on 1 July 2002.[2] As of March 2011, 114 states are party to the statute.[2] Grenada will become the 115th state party on 1 August 2011.[7] A further 34 states have signed but not ratified the treaty.
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