REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"Israel was nine miles wide"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:55
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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:35 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I've been wondering about Obama's claims that Israel WOULD be defensible if they went back to the pre-1967 boundaries. It didn't make sense to me. I found this backed up my belief:
Quote:

On the website of Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs there is a map -- with a message. The map itself is a basic display of how regional borders looked before the Six Day War in 1967. The message is in the distances drawn from those borders to major Israeli cities.

For example, it's noted that the distance from what was in 1967 the armistice line with Jordan to the Israeli city of Netanya on the Mediterranean was 9 miles; to Beersheeba, 10 miles; and to Tel Aviv, 11 miles. The city of Ashkelon was 7 miles from the edge of the Gaza Strip, then under Egyptian rule.

The point is a simple one: Israel was virtually impossible to defend; any aggressor would try to cut it in half. Read this story in Arabic

That's just what the Arab armies tried to achieve in 1967. On the eve of the war, the Egyptian newspaper al Akhbar noted: "Under the terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, coordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two at Qalqilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only 12 kilometres (7 miles) wide."

It's a point that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stressed at his White House meeting with President Barack Obama last week.

"Remember that before 1967, Israel was all of 9 miles wide, half the width of the Washington beltway," he said. "And these were not the boundaries of peace, they were the boundaries of repeated wars because the attack on Israel was so attractive from them."

His choice of the word "boundaries" may not have been accidental, because in 1967 Israel had no agreed borders with its Arab neighbors. They were instead armistice lines agreed to in 1949 after the division of Palestine. (Internationally-recognized borders with Jordan and Egypt have since been agreed upon.) The Six Day War rendered those armistice lines redundant.

At the end of May 1967, Egypt, Syria and Jordan were massing troops and armor within striking distance of Israel. Egypt had closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping. On June 5, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack that destroyed much of the Egyptian air force. In the days that followed, Israeli forces captured all of Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan, the Golan Heights from Syria and the Sinai peninsula and Gaza from Egypt. Suddenly, Israel had some "strategic depth."

For a time, that altered Israel's military doctrine -- meaning that a pre-emptive first strike was no longer its only option. The October 1973 war showed that Israel was capable of absorbing a first strike and retaliating.

But Ariel Sharon, when he became defense minister in 1981, argued that the modernization of Arab armies and their possession of surface-to-surface missiles had cancelled out the benefits of "strategic depth." He argued that Israel could not absorb a first strike and should be ready to launch preventive and pre-emptive strikes against potential threats. The same argument is made by many Israeli strategists today, in relation to a potential nuclear threat from Iran.

Successive Israeli leaders have rejected a return to the pre-1967 boundaries, starting with Golda Meir in 1969, who said it would be irresponsible for any Israeli government to support such a plan.

Former Foreign Minister Yigal Allon wrote in 1976 that Israel needed defensible borders "which could enable the small standing army units of Israel's defensive force to hold back the invading Arab armies until most of the country's reserve citizen army could be mobilized." When he was prime minister, Menachem Begin said it would be national suicide for Israel to retreat to its pre-1967 borders. And in 2004, President George W. Bush promised then-Israeli Prime Minister Sharon a "steadfast (U.S.) commitment to Israel's security, including secure, defensible borders." Even so, the international community has never recognized Israel's claims to any territory beyond the pre-1967 armistice lines.

More at http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/05/24/israel.1967/index.html?hpt=S
bin


I also understand Israel not being willing to deal with a country which denies it's right to exist. Generally speaking, I'm not pro-Israel, and they've done some pretty unconscionable things. But in these two points I see their side, and it seems to me a simple matter of survival. So why Obama is pushing them, while I appreciate him being harder on them (something few Presidents have been), is wrong on these two issues. I think they have valid points.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 12:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

So why Obama is pushing them, while I appreciate him being harder on them (something few Presidents have been), is wrong on these two issues. I think they have valid points.



On this, we agree.

Maybe the Apocalypse DID occur.







" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 1:18 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nope. Now it's October 21, remember?

..or is it 2012? I keep getting confused...

(I saw the movie and loved it. Cable is replaying it over and over, as they do every movie they get, and I keep watching it--just for the special effects and only until the last half hour, which is boring and overdone. But damn, watching LA slide into the ocean, Las Vegas self-destruct and Yellowstone go sky high, it's great!)

By the way, tho' you've most likely forgotten it, we HAVE agreed before. At least once.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Obama's stance is the same as Bush's before him, and Clinton's before that, on back to Reagan.

As for Israel's pre-'67 lines being "indefensible", history says that claim is 100% false, since Israel did indeed defend those lines, quite well in fact, and then expanded them, often radically.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:22 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

(I saw the movie and loved it. Cable is replaying it over and over, as they do every movie they get, and I keep watching it--just for the special effects and only until the last half hour, which is boring and overdone. But damn, watching LA slide into the ocean, Las Vegas self-destruct and Yellowstone go sky high, it's great!)



Sorry to sidebar off the issue here...

I refuse to waste my time w/ 2012. Can't believe John Cusack, no wait...or was it Ed Norton ? ( j/k ) and a decent array of other talent wasted their time w/ this piece of go se.

Even if just for the FX. I hear from those who thought The Day After Tomorrow was horrific, that 2012 made it look like an Academy award winner.

To each their own. I'll admit to flipping over to watch TDAT , when it's on TNT, or what ever. Much like watching a car wreck in slow motion... I think " Is it REALLY that bad ? ", and each time, I'm reminded that yes... it is.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:23 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
But damn, watching LA slide into the ocean,



Aw, c'mon, Niki, you live in Marin-- yer pro'lly just upset 'cuz it ain't polite to cheer out loud !!!


( Teasing, hon, you know that... I'm on your side most of the time....) ;<0

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 1:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I think as I've grown older, I've become less enthralled over Hollywood's ability to obliterate tall buildings and wipe out entire cities, for mere 'oooh, cool!' reactions.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 2:26 AM

DREAMTROVE


I agree with Niki and Auraptor. But hats off to Obama for saying it. I mean, he doesn't mean it of course, but for once we have a president whose willing to negotiate with Israel starting from a position other than "Yes, Master?"

Obama is willing to agree to what Netanyahu wants, but first he wants to say "Oh yeah? What's in it for US?"

Sure, this can go wrong if the demands Obama makes are unreasonable. I hope he doesn't do something moronic like say "you will change local domestic policy to XYZ" but if he wants to say "you will allow nuclear inspectors in" or "you will not withold food from palestinians"I'm down with that. What I expect him to say is "you will let us use Israel for a military base."


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I honestly don't get the idea of the US calling Israel 'master'. They're surrounded by folks who want them wiped off the map, and are simply fighting for their very survival.

I'm inclined to believe them when they say they'll not submit to borders which are indefensible.

If there was anywhere near a quid pro quo w/ the Pals, I'd be more sympathetic.

But there's not, so I'm not.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:54 AM

DREAMTROVE




Rap,

No, they're not. The US has been kowtowing to Israel for way too long.

A quick review of the situation:

1) israel has a huge army, tanks, planes and about 200 nukes.
2) contrary to racist media opinion, arabs are not dumb.
3) arab govts. Are, however, manipulative, and this palestine issue is worth more to them as a controversy than it's worth solved
4) israel exploits that to take ove palestine bit by bit
5) someone else is eloiting it to control israel, by supporting hamas (my top suspect is that this is ALSO he US, and that we've beenlaying both sides all along.
6) no one wants to "wipe israel off the map" the phrase originated with the IDF, and has been inserted into speeches by MEMRI, a spin off branch of the IDF, which our media relies on for all arabic and farsi translations.
7) nothing we do is going to change the outcome of the israeli palestinian issue. It will depend entirely on whether or not they are willing to stop making political hay of it while their people shoot at each other and sit down and actually talk it out.
8) that's not going to happen until someone puts prressure on them.
9) im really quiet ticked with Obama and about as suspicious of him as you are, and probably this forum's second strongest supporter of Israel after Mince. However, I gotta give this one to Obama. Not only should the Us not be saying "hey you want more weapons, here, help yourself" but more importantly, I would like Israel to get over this palestinian thing and devote their efforts towards their own future. That's not going to happen until they start talking.

Gaza is not going to give up. They have a 5000 year record of not giving up. Take a look at Gaza, and you see why. It doesn't look like so much of the arab world: a desert full of shacks. It has green cities by the sea, if it were my home, I'd derend it too.

Israel doesn't need it. It was never a part of ancient Israel, in spite of them making maps to try to say it was, it's a bogus claim. Not owning it will just me some small successful arab country next door, like dubai or brunei. The only thing wrong with Gaza at the moment besides Israel attacking is Hamas, but the only reason Hamas is there is because the people voted for them, because Israel was attacking. If Israel
Stopped attacking, Hamas would have very little to sell to the people.

Lastly, here's a little story from a couple of years ago that struck a nerve, and it went something like this:

Part of the 9.11 agreement was that NY needed its own missile defense system. Congress allocated money to build it, and then one of the whinionists stuck a provision into some bill that gave the system to Israel. israel didnt really need it, because the palestinians have jack for missiles, so they sold it to a then pro-US but very corrupt govt. Of Pakistan, who then in turn sold it to N. Korea. Now it defends Pyongyang instead of defending Manhattan.

I followed this baby, and I'm sure you can dig it up, but my main point here is that this so exmplifies everything that is wrong with our relationship with Israel and our more fairweather allies, and what I really didn't like most about the Bush Admin: it's two facedness. This is a sign that maybe that is going to change. I'm not real hopeful, but there's a chance.


And yes, of course, no one expects Israel to accept it, especially not Obama. He's expecting them to come back with a better off than "give us more weapons, bitch." What? dont they teach negotion in military intelligen?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


dt -


sorry, but your world and reality don't exactly fit in the same time/ space continuum.

What 'racist media' claims Arabs are dumb? Where the hell are you getting THAT?

I hear Netanyahu offer ( again ) a negotiated peace, willing to give up land, and the Pals claims that's some sort of declaration of war.

Crazy might be more accurate...

The PLO wants to wipe Israel off the map. It's in their charter, and not anything 'made up', as you claim.

Quote:



The charter speaks for itself. It calls for destruction of a member state of the UN, in violation of the UN charter. Nonetheless, the PLO was subsequently given observer status in the UN. The major and noteworthy features of both the 1964 and 1968 versions of the charter are:

1. Declaration of intent to destroy Israel and "liberate" all of Palestine:

Article 2:Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.

Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.

2. Defiance of UN General Assembly Resolution 181, which called for partition of Palestine:

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

The above is especially instructive given the Palestinian insistence on "international legitimacy."

3. Denial of the historic connection of the Jews to the land:

Article 20: ...Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood.

The above claim has been seconded by attempts of pro-Palestinian academics to erase or deny archeological and other evidence of Jewish habitation in Jerusalem and elsewhere in ancient times. For some reason, US President Clinton was surprised when PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat denied that Jews had lived in the land in ancient times. There was no occasion for surprise, as it is an article of the Palestinian charter and is central to the Palestinian national credo.

4. Denial of Jewish peoplehood and of the right to self-determination of the Jewish people:

Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

This statement should be borne in mind when considering the outraged and self righteous protests by Palestinian Arabs when some Israelis deny that there is a Palestinian people or that there was a Palestinian people before 1948....
http://www.mideastweb.org/plocha.htm



You get the idea...





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 2:31 PM

DREAMTROVE


You never heard this idea that arabs were stupid?!? Maye its only jews saying it. It's certainly a bias, and it's been in the press for a while. Also, it was my understanding that the PLO was a defunct organization, and that even Arafat had given up on this mission long ago.

Sorry, forgot about Palestine themselves. But, seriously, you can't really be claiming that they are a threat that the israeli armed services with all the above mentioned weaooons and more is not enough to ddfend against the palestinians? i'm sorry, that's like make the case of the poor Americans who were helpless against the indians without fighting new wars. It's important to make these little reminders because that was exactly the argument made, even to the point of "the poor white settlers" who, yes, were poor, white and in danger, because the govt, had encouraged them to settle therej as a pretext for invasion. Now there's something you don't see every day, unless you're on Brazil, of Israel. I'm sorry, I don't consider the palestinians a threat, and I would be suspect of any Israeli making that case. There's plenty of room there for both of them.

All of this is irrelevent and a distraction from the main point which was negotiation, and how to do it. Netanyahu offers "down on your knees bitch" and now Obama has actually displayed some balls. Even you should be able to respect that. I don't think arabs are dumb, and I don't think people from Georgia are. I think they *pretend* to be idiots so they can keep people trapped in well framed arguments.

Reality is that the reality which you just described is the past. Maybe that's what the world looked like 20 years ago, it's not what it looks like today. Maybe closer to 30, Netanyahu aside.

But also... Honestly, who do you serve? the United States? Or Israel?


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, May 27, 2011 2:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I have no vested interest in Israel per se, other than they're an ally to the USA. It's my American patriotism that leads me to side w/ Israel over those who openly state they want to destroy them.

Which side having the better weapons isn't the issue. If anything, it backs up my view that Israel SHOULD be supported by not just the US, but the West in general.

If the Pals put down their weapons, there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons, there'd be genocide.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 2:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


They're an "alley"? Really?


Crassic.

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Friday, May 27, 2011 2:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
They're an "alley"? Really?


Crassic.



Nope. They're an ally.

Anytime you want to join the big boy discussion, feel free. Until then, bugger off.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 3:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
They're an "alley"? Really?


Crassic.



Nope. They're an ally.

Anytime you want to join the big boy discussion, feel free. Until then, bugger off.




Shouldn't a "big boy" be able to spell "ally" properly in only one try?



You'll never be a part of any "big boy" discussion, child.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, May 27, 2011 3:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



You work 12 hr days, then come home and type error free.

And only when you start discussing the TOPICS,instead of picking out meaningless little typos, then you can sit at the adults table.

Not yet, though. Not yet.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 3:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

You work 12 hr days, then come home and type error free.



Okay. Done, and done. I'm slammed at work right now, working 10-to-12-hour shifts six and seven days a week. I'm even working on Memorial Day, while everyone else takes off, just so I can catch up a bit and get some room to breathe. It hasn't affected my typing yet.

Quote:


And only when you start discussing the TOPICS,instead of picking out meaningless little typos, then you can sit at the adults table.



Can I quote you on that? Can I?



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, May 27, 2011 4:00 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



You've made typos before, so you just made a liar out of yourself.

Congrats.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 4:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

You've made typos before, so you just made a liar out of yourself.

Congrats.




And you've picked them out before, making a liar out of yourself and proving that you're not ready to sit at the "big boy" table. Congrats yourself.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, May 27, 2011 4:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

You've made typos before, so you just made a liar out of yourself.

Congrats.






Nope, sorry, you fail.

Most of my replies are of substance, pertaining to the issue at hand, or the purpose of the thread.

Your replies ? Not so much. Not even a little.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, May 27, 2011 4:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You've never offered a single thing of substance here. Nothing but hate ("Jack Murtha should be put down like a rabid dog", etc.) and personal attacks and insults.

The only positive contribution you ever made to this site was when you threw your little bitch-fit and stormed out.

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Saturday, May 28, 2011 2:37 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I have no vested interest in Israel per se, other than they're an ally to the USA. It's my American patriotism that leads me to side w/ Israel over those who openly state they want to destroy them.

Which side having the better weapons isn't the issue. If anything, it backs up my view that Israel SHOULD be supported by not just the US, but the West in general.

If the Pals put down their weapons, there'd be peace. If the Jews put down their weapons, there'd be genocide.



Nonsense

I'm sorry, this is just absurd. As the descendant of multiple holocaust survivors and non-survivors, I've studied the holocaust and what made it happen in some pretty serious depth. I know what causes it and what doesn't.

That's why I yell at PN for his Khazar/Mongol blood. This is the closest thing to the thinking that underlies it that I see here. The second closest would be support for our policy in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Our war in Iraq was really a war, and not a genocide, you can argue its merits, I would still not support it, but it doesn't belong in the category. Our current conflict might. It's getting close.

Comparing the Palestinian attitude towards Israel to the holocaust is as absurd as comparing the Israeli attitude towards the palestinians to the holocaust, which I've also seen done here.

This is just utter nonsense. This situation is more similar to the situation in South Africa than to the holocaust, but the situation I find it most similar to is Northern Ireland. The end result of that appears to have been not a two state solution or a total genocide, but rather, people coming to terms with the fact that 1/2 the population was a different religion than the other half.

I support Obama in this one instance because he is actually showing some guts and not being the typical snivelling american coward, Is his proposal workable? Of course not. He doesn't think so either. But if there *is* to be a lasting peace, it's going to have to be based on the recognition that there are two religions here. And the Israelis aren't fooling anyone, except maybe you, they are the obstacle to this recognition. Sure, there are radical palestinians, but the only support from them comes from fear of Israel. If you remove that threat by getting Israel to acknowledge that muslims have a right to live on the land they live on, then support for the radical palestinian factions will evaporate. Instead Israel whines and whinges like a wounded puppy because it can manipulate the US to continue in its state of denial.

If you stand for America, then stand up for America. Right now, America is trying to negotiate a better position. The reason for this is that if we solve this problem in an amicable manner, we get a lot more arab allies.

There are a quarter million or so Jews on the palestinian side under muslim rule and have been for decades.

This isn't even close to the underpinnings of the holocaust. Saying that the muslims would genocide the jews does nothing but discredit you.

ETA: Don't really have time to argue, just wanted to make the point: if you're pro-america, having a better position in this relationship would be better for america. I don't care all that much, but I would just generally respect anyone with guts over someone without them, whether it be Vladimir Putin or Hu Jintao. Sometime's they're just plain wacko, but I'm sick of spineless sycophants. I'd probably begin a negotiAtion with Israel the same way, even though I agree with what they're trying to do, more than I agree with what our govt. is trying to do. It remains to be seen if Obama will also stand up to the frackers and hawks in Pakistan, or the commies, etc. But, hey, it's a sign of spine, and that's a start. Since there's nothing I can do about Obama now, he has 18 mos to win my vote, and he's starting from way back. I would need to see the US out of the mideast and an end to domestic use of WMDs. I'd like to see an end to torture, detainment, homeland security, the patriot act, and these international trade treaties that seem to only serve our oppponents and enemies.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Ally my ass, they're a goddamn parasite and they need to get off our tit and stand on their own, especially since all we GET for all that money is backstabbing, betrayal, hatred and disrespect.

Do I really need to run down that whole goddamn list of shit they pulled on us over the years, again - cause I see no reason to.

It's their damn country, let em run it how they like - MY issue is that we should not be fucking financing it, not when we got our own issues to deal with and get nothing from them but sweat, regret and hassle.

"Friends" like them, we do not need.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, May 30, 2011 10:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Been gone a few days; interesting discussion (leaving aside Raptor and Mike's usual dance). I learned a bit more after I posted this. Apparently the ruckus was because Obama was claimed to have said borders should return to 1967 lines. Blown totally out of proportion and a lie to boot; he said borders should be used as a BASIS for negotiations, with gives and takes from both sides from there. Perfectly rational, if you ask me, but then it's neither a media-rational nor an Israel-rational country in which we live.

A lot of what's been said by DT and Frem is right on; some I disagree with as perhaps going a bit far, but ironically, I too see this mess as akin to Northern Ireland, and a lot less but nonetheless SOMEWHAT akin to South Africa.

I know you won't and it's knee-jerk on your part, Raptor, but you'd be taken more seriously, especially on this issue, if you were to look INTO it just a bit, not just what you hear from the politicians and media, but the actual story. You'd be aghast to discover the many atrocities committed by Israel and that, yes, we HAVE cowtowed to them many, many times over the years. Our Presidents and legislators have wanted them as an ally in the region and have been pretty willing to give in on almost everything, and bury (for the most part) media coverage of the things Israel has done...not to mention highlighting every bad thing the Palestinians have done.

You have only to ask friends in Europe to get the REAL story (or closer to it; they're biased in the other direction, admittedly). I got an amazed, rude shock when I was informed that a lot of the anti-American sentiment around the world is BECAUSE of our unquestioning championing of Israel and the financial and military support we give them. I didn't believe it at first, but after hunting around, I realize it's true...and it saddens me.

I agree that Hamas has to either stop it's assininity about wiping them off the face of the earth or be gotten rid of; that's the ONLY thing I see as viable to "demand". The rest is politics and diplomacy, and we've been such an incredibly strong power behind Israel that REAL peace talks haven't had a chance.

The old saw about Israel stopping shooting would mean their demise doesn't hold water anymore; it's pure dogma and easy button-pushing. I would bet 90% of Americans don't know the REAL story--I wouldn't if I hadn't bumped up against that amazing fact about why so much anti-American feeling our backing of Israel has brought about.

I would suggest you check it out, Raptor, only I'm pretty sure from past experience you won't and instead will go on repeating the usual talking points. It's a shame; the more of us who became educated on the facts, the better chance we MIGHT have in demanding those who represent us start behaving decently to both sides AND (especially) telling the whole story.

Hey, I can dream...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, May 30, 2011 11:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As to 2012, I love it, as I said. I'm a fan of good fx and, having been a desktop publisher, have just a TEENY affinity and a LOT of respect for the amount of time and talent it takes to do that sort of thing well (and they did). The story is typically pat Hollywood stuff, characters you're supposed to get invested in, side stories, good guys/bad guys, etc.; I watch it for the CG, which I feel were excellent.

Cusak has done his fair share of trash; I think it's de regure for Hollywood names, that they have to do their "popular trash" movies somewhere along the line. Cage was wasted on National Treasure too (which I also love ad own to watch over), if you will, but I enjoy both of them and all the others who do their "time", if they do it well. Cusak did a workmanlike job; none of them were parts worthy of decent talent in 2012, but that's not what those movies are FOR. Names are to get you into the theater, as is promise of good CG and nowadays, 3D.

Watched DAT once; some of the effects were decent, but the rest was such trash the CG (which wasn't THAT great) didn't make up for it. Just my opinion.

I felt the same about Armaggedon; always regretted that Deep Impact came out the same time, 'cuz it didn't get NEARLY the play it deserved in comparison...DI by far the better movie, but the "big guns" they got for Armaggedon got all the attention.

For something of more substance, I'd look at The Abyss (which I also adore and own); good combo of CG, talent and decent writing. Also Contact, and of course, in my opinion the best so far: Avatar.

And yes, NewOld, here's your giggle for the day: It was one of the few movies I actually paid the money to see in the theater, and when LA sank into the Pacific, MANY cheers were heard! Las Vegas wasn't good enough CG to enjoy (and we probably don't "hate" it as much), and I'd cry to see Yellowstone go up like that, but LA? We laughed our heads off... (Remember, this is a No. Ca. audience )


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, May 30, 2011 11:30 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Niki

FWIW, rather late, but I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true.

Bush is for torture? Then Rap is for torture.
Bush says there are WMDs? Then Rap believes there are WMDs.
The Right-Wing-Voice-of-the-Moment says the media is liberal? Then Rap knows it's liberal.

He has this disconnected moment-to-moment belief system depending on the messenger of the moment. And viola - that's how his notions crash head-on into his -other- notions. And he ends up criticizing Obama for not being liberal enough.

The reason why he doesn't recognize himself as an irrational believer is that Rap prides himself on not being trailer-park-*religious*-trash. What he fails to realize is that one can be religious - ie slavish to an authority - about all sorts of things. In his case, Reagan is god, trickle-down is bible, and conservatives have seen the light and hold the truth.

He believes unthinkingly what he hears, as long as it's said by an authority he likes. He is the definition of an RWA.

And like any true believer, not only will facts fail to convince him, they will make him believe even more strongly than before (How facts backfire). It is worse than useless to engage him in debate, it makes his fact-free life even more untethered to this world. Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail.

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Thursday, June 2, 2011 4:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My dad and I enjoy those end-of-the-world disaster movies. I like Day After Tomorrow, but 2012 I only saw part of, maybe I'd have liked it better if I'd seen the whole thing. I also really enjoy "Post Apocolyptic" films a lot, probably more than disaster films.

The saddest film I ever saw that was an end-of-the-world film was called On the Beach with Rachel Ward, it was so sad and in it the world really does end, no one survives, really sad movie but worth seeing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, June 2, 2011 7:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, Riona - two recommendations, then.

First one, and this should be mandatory viewing, I believe, for anyone who advocates warfare as a political solution, is Threads - cause that's where it ends, people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threads

The other is about the most likely type of catastrophe of this nature to affect the US, and that is a series also cancelled, uncancelled, and killed off too soon (much like Firefly!) series called Jericho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_%28TV_series%29

I found the latter of a high enough quality that it sits right next to Firefly and Space:Above and Beyond on my DVD shelf, which is damn high praise, coming from me.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, June 3, 2011 12:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Niki

FWIW, rather late, but I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true.



It's either cute or creepy that you're obsessing over me. I'm not sure which. But your conclusions are exactly opposite to the truth.

Quote:


Bush is for torture? Then Rap is for torture.
Bush says there are WMDs? Then Rap believes there are WMDs.
The Right-Wing-Voice-of-the-Moment says the media is liberal? Then Rap knows it's liberal.



Wateboarding isn't torture. Not how the total of 3 detainees had it done to them. Your ignorance on this matter is telling.

Did you know that the very folks who administered the water boarding to the 3 detainees had themselves been water boarded ? In fact, 1000's of US servicemen have been water boarded, as part of their training.

Every Democrat in D.C. said there was WMD in Iraq, back when Clinton was in office. Did I ever say they were lying ? ( well, in retrospect, I should have. Dems lie, and do so proudly. e.g. - Clinton and Congressman Weiner ) And when 90% of the media votes the same way in any given election, it doesn't take a ruttin genius to figure out which way they lean politically.

Quote:



He has this disconnected moment-to-moment belief system depending on the messenger of the moment. And viola - that's how his notions crash head-on into his -other- notions. And he ends up criticizing Obama for not being liberal enough.


No dear, my views and my thought process are pretty damn consistent. I'm as opposed to the drug war today as I was coming out of college. It's a futile effort and a colossal waste of resources. It's called being rooted in principles. A foreign concept for you, I'm sure. And when have I ever criticized B.O. for not being liberal ENOUGH ? Seriously, what are you smoking ?

Quote:


The reason why he doesn't recognize himself as an irrational believer is that Rap prides himself on not being trailer-park-*religious*-trash. What he fails to realize is that one can be religious - ie slavish to an authority - about all sorts of things. In his case, Reagan is god, trickle-down is bible, and conservatives have seen the light and hold the truth.



Evolution is irrational ? See, now you're just grabbing things out of thin air, and hoping to make something stick. My views are GROUNDED in the rational, the factual, as well as historical. Neither of which you seem to have any grasp of, at all. And you think you don't zealously hold to Left wing views, to the level of religious fervor ? Now THAT'S denial!

Quote:


He believes unthinkingly what he hears, as long as it's said by an authority he likes. He is the definition of an RWA.

Oh, like you do w/ AGW ? Seriously, you're projecting your own specific faults onto others.

Quote:



And like any true believer, not only will facts fail to convince him, they will make him believe even more strongly than before (How facts backfire). It is worse than useless to engage him in debate, it makes his fact-free life even more untethered to this world. Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail.



Cite ONE example, please. Just one, if you can.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 2:36 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I'm with Mike on this, Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces.

So Israel might be taking a small risk with these more vulnerable borders (1967 lines adjusted via land-swaps), but these are the kind of risks that will have to be taken to achieve peace. Or they can be used as excuses to duck the whole issue, not meet the Palestinians in the middle, and preserve the status quo - as Netanyahu is doing.

Niki - yes, staunch support for Israel is the main reason why America is consistently hated in Muslim countries, in my estimation. Solve the Middle East conflict and Islamic radicalism decreases dramatically across the globe.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I'm with Mike on this, Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces.

So Israel might be taking a small risk with these more vulnerable borders (1967 lines adjusted via land-swaps), but these are the kind of risks that will have to be taken to achieve peace. Or they can be used as excuses to duck the whole issue, not meet the Palestinians in the middle, and preserve the status quo - as Netanyahu is doing.

Niki - yes, staunch support for Israel is the main reason why America is consistently hated in Muslim countries, in my estimation. Solve the Middle East conflict and Islamic radicalism decreases dramatically across the globe.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Which begs the question: Does the U.S. really WANT to solve this? After all, without radical Islam to hold up as "the enemy", what will they have to go to war against?

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Every Democrat in D.C. said there was WMD in Iraq, back when Clinton was in office.



Cites? Do you have ANY evidence to back such in idiotic and patently ridiculous claim?

Of course you don't. You're a Republican. You don't need evidence to believe the amazingly stupid shit you believe.

Quick - how many bells did Paul Revere ring to warn the British not to take our guns?



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Every Democrat in D.C. said there was WMD in Iraq, back when Clinton was in office.



Cites? Do you have ANY evidence to back such in idiotic and patently ridiculous claim?

Of course you don't. You're a Republican. You don't need evidence to believe the amazingly stupid shit you believe.



Too easy...

Democrat Quotes on Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm


Must be like how ya felt, after getting pantsed in HS, in front of the varsity cheerleader squad....

No where to hide, huh? OUCH!


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:


kpo wrote:
Friday, June 03, 2011 02:36
Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces.



That's a pretty naive assessment of the situation.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 1:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


You seem to be about a million short. You said EVERY Democrat in DC said there were WMD. Every single one.


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

Right there, you have one Democrat saying we're going to DENY Iraq the capacity to DEVELOP WMD. That's a long way from saying that he's GOT WMD, which is what you claim every single Democrat in DC said. There's Clinton himself, not saying it.


Your pants are down, clown.

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Friday, June 3, 2011 2:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Wow. Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 2:37 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:


kpo wrote:
Friday, June 03, 2011 02:36
Saying the 1967 lines were indefensible is hyperbole, as evidently they were defensible in 1967. Add to this that Israel has nuclear weapons now, and there's not really a great danger of the country being invaded and overrun by conventional forces.



That's a pretty naive assessment of the situation.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Why?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, June 3, 2011 3:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious. The issue is one of tactical advantages, not merely the end result.

And you think there's no way Israel would be attacked by conventional forces , even though they have nukes ?

Recent history over the past 40 years would suggest otherwise.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 5:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wow. Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talking.



And you keep right on insisting that every Democrat in DC said Iraq had WMD. I can just as easily say that NONE OF THEM ever said he had WMD, and simply ignore any evidence that doesn't line up with that view of the world. That is exactly what you do, every single day.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, June 3, 2011 5:41 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious.




I'm pretty sure you have no idea what any of those words mean.

That the borders were defended proves pretty conclusively that they WERE - and ARE - defensible. There's nothing specious about that at all. It's a fact. All one needs to prove that they're defensible is show a single instance where they were successfully defended.

How is it you haven't died of stupidity yet?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, June 3, 2011 5:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

How is it you haven't died of stupidity yet?



Only an idiot would have to ask such a question. Basic logic fails you, it seems.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, June 3, 2011 6:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


That the borders were defended proves pretty conclusively that they WERE - and ARE - defensible. There's nothing specious about that at all. It's a fact. All one needs to prove that they're defensible is show a single instance where they were successfully defended.



Posted again, because you can't seem to get it through your thick skull.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 8:18 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious. The issue is one of tactical advantages, not merely the end result.

You're making this more complicated than it needs to be. Mike's right, I can't say it any clearer than he has. The border lines are NOT indefensible as Israel has already successfully defended them... And how it did so is irrelevant. You'd do well to let the point go.

Quote:

And you think there's no way Israel would be attacked by conventional forces , even though they have nukes ?

Recent history over the past 40 years would suggest otherwise.


Well everyone knows now that Israel has nuclear weapons. Back in 1967 from what I've read Israel only had a handful of primitive devices, and that these would have been a surprise to the Arab countries. Do you have any evidence that the leaders of the Arab countries knew (or strongly suspected) that Israel had nuclear capability in '67, or in '73? (Even the CIA didn't know for certain in 1974, saying an Israeli arsenal "cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.")

It strikes me that nuclear weapons have proven themselves to be quite an effective deterrent against conventional war, across the whole world, for longer than 40 years.

I reiterate my earlier point:

Quote:

Israel might be taking a small risk with these more vulnerable borders (1967 lines adjusted via land-swaps), but these are the kind of risks that will have to be taken to achieve peace.


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, Kiki, I didn’t get back to this thread, but thank you. You got it in a nutshell:
Quote:

I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true.

...

I've come to a revelation about Rap - it's not about WHAT is said, it's about WHO says it. That is the beginning, middle and end of what passes for his thinking. If he likes WHO says it, then it's true.

...

He believes unthinkingly what he hears, as long as it's said by an authority he likes. He is the definition of an RWA.

And like any true believer, not only will facts fail to convince him, they will make him believe even more strongly than before (How facts backfire). It is worse than useless to engage him in debate, it makes his fact-free life even more untethered to this world. Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail.

Absolutely true...I don’t agree with the “Rap prides himself on not being trailer-park-*religious*-trash” part, I’m not sure of that, but for the rest, I agree with every word. I’ve recognized that for a long time now, and, just as Mike does, I respond usually to everyone else, to point out how wrong he is, not because I expect any sensible reply from Raptor himself.

I LOVED his response to your post. No, Raptor, we’re not obsessed with you, Kiki is just recognizing what all of us come to recognize eventually, and put it in excellent terms. I’d love a show of hands from how many feel exactly the same way, as opposed to how many think your viewed ARE actually “grounded in reality”. It would be pretty telling.

As to citing examples, there are far too many to bother. If you’d like, I’ll mention it every time it shows up, tho’ not for very long as it shows up in virtually every post you write. In just this one, not “every” Democrat believed in RWED, water boarding HAS been determined to be torture (and soldiers are subjected to it BECAUSE it is a form of torture they need to be prepared for!), the media doesn’t “vote”, and you have no factual proof that Weiner ever lied.

As to Democrats believing in WMD, I caught a great comment on line:
Quote:

why do republicans keep bring this up, as a way to deflect their culpability in this blunder? The whole world thought that there were wmd's, but this batch of dunderheads were so hot to go to war that they elevated it to an eminent danger. Mushroom clouds I believe was the catch phrase that they chose to use to sell it to the public.
That about covers it, as well as the fact that not “all” Democrats bought it. You can post all the quotes you want; the lie was that ALL of them believed it. Mike cited even Clinton himself as one who didn’t believe they HAD THEM.

The “water boarding isn’t torture” thing? I can’t resist:
Quote:

Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture:

The term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture: In order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention any measure of such a character as to cause the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents.

Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention: torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions.

Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture For the purposes of this Convention, torture shall be understood to be any act intentionally performed whereby physical or mental pain or suffering is inflicted on a person for purposes of criminal investigation, as a means of intimidation, as personal punishment, as a preventive measure, as a penalty, or for any other purpose. Torture shall also be understood to be the use of methods upon a person intended to obliterate the personality of the victim or to diminish his physical or mental capacities, even if they do not cause physical pain or mental anguish. The concept of torture shall not include physical or mental pain or suffering that is inherent in or solely the consequence of lawful measures, provided that they do not include the performance of the acts or use of the methods referred to in this article.

18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)

“torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control
(2)“severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
the threat of imminent death; or
the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;

92 tapes were destroyed by the CIA in November 2005 after a report by Inspector General John L. Helgerson’s office determined that they depicted "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, as defined by the international Convention Against Torture".

Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture:".

http://www.waterboarding.org/torture_definition

Sorry to much up the thread with so much text, but that statement was just TOO out-there to ignore.

As to
Quote:

Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible.
That is so illogical it’s silly. As has been pointed out, successfully defending borders DOES prove they can be (and WERE) successfully defended. And let’s not forget that it is NOT what Obama said.

You’ve just shown, over and over, that Kiki’s statements were correct, and your only comebacks have been ridiculous snarks; no proof, no cites, no refutation in any way of the things people pointed out were untrue. She’s absolutely right: “Facts and reason, in his case, do not prevail”.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:50 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
You seem to be about a million short. You said EVERY Democrat in DC said there were WMD. Every single one.


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

Right there, you have one Democrat saying we're going to DENY Iraq the capacity to DEVELOP WMD. That's a long way from saying that he's GOT WMD, which is what you claim every single Democrat in DC said. There's Clinton himself, not saying it.


Your pants are down, clown.



Most of the quotes from while Clinton was in office are about potential WMD or WMD development programs. Most of the declarative statements that Saddam actually HAS WMD are from 2001 or 2002, after Bush was inaugurated. ( I seldom claim " ALL" or " NEVER", there's always a few exceptions...) So yeah, he's wrong on his factual claim, by his own quotes.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 9:56 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Wasn't there a war in '67 ? That it was successfully defended doesn't automatically PROVE that the lines are defensible. That's just specious. The issue is one of tactical advantages, not merely the end result.



As I remember the Six Day War of 1967, Israel didn't defend *S*Q*U*A*T*. They made a first strike, fought an offensive war, pushed the Arabs back into Arab territory, and fought there, precisely because they were so worried about Israel being indefensible.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:02 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, Rappy, we do know for a fact that Israel has WMD.


So when do we start bombing? When do we invade? Or shall we start with a little light torture to set the mood?

After all, they've attacked us as many times as Iraq has, so clearly represent the larger threat to peace.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:10 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:




The “water boarding isn’t torture” thing? I can’t resist:
Quote:

Part 1, Article 1 and the US Reservations of the UN Convention Against Torture:


The US Reservations for the UN Convention Against Torture:

Article 32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention
Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention:
Article 7(2)(e) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture
18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2)






Hey, Niki, I'm on your side here, and I believe you, but can you provide dates on those documents without too much trouble? Just years will do, if you know 'em or have 'em handy. I admit I'm too lazy to look 'em up myself, but I'm inclined to bet that they have been around for quite a while, and were regarded as settled issues
until the Bushies came along.

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Sunday, June 5, 2011 10:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sure, NewOld, happy to oblige:

United Nations Convention Against Torture:
Quote:

The text of the Convention was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 10 December 1984[1] and, following ratification by the 20th state party,[2] it came into force on 26 June 1987.[1] 26 June is now recognised as the International Day in Support of Torture Victims, in honour of the Convention. As of September 2010, the Convention had 147 parties
When it comes to the Fourth Geneva Convention stuff:
Quote:

The undersigned Plenipotentiaries of the Governments represented at the Diplomatic Conference held at Geneva from April 21 to August 12, 1949, for the purpose of establishing a Convention for the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, have agreed as follows:
Quote:

The Inter-American Convention to Prevent and Punish Torture (IACPPT) is an international human rights instrument, created in 1985 within the Western Hemisphere Organization of American States and intended to prevent torture and other similar activities. The Inter-American Convention entered into force on February 28, 1987, and, as of 2010, 18 nations are party to it, with another two having signed but not yet ratified.
he Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court:
Quote:

is the treaty that established the International Criminal Court (ICC). It was adopted at a diplomatic conference in Rome on 17 July 1998[5][6] and it entered into force on 1 July 2002.[2] As of March 2011, 114 states are party to the statute.[2] Grenada will become the 115th state party on 1 August 2011.[7] A further 34 states have signed but not ratified the treaty.
18 United States Code Title 18, §2340(2) appears to have been updated in 2010, but there’s no date for the original Code itself ( http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002340---
-000-.html
)

Obviously you’re right that most of it’s been around a while, especially the Geneva Convention. I found most everything on Wikipedia (with the exception of the last). The document I quoted shows links to the titles, but many of them come out "web page cannot be found" because the link is like "Article 1, Subsection 3". But the entire document can be found on Wikipedia.

That was actually a lot easier and faster than I thought, and thanx for asking.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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