Obama 2011 vs. Obama 2005 by Geezer

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama 2011 vs. Obama 2005

POSTED BY: GEEZER
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:49
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Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:47 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 19, 2011 2:39 PM

DREAMTROVE

Lol

Or as Jon Stewart put it:

Senator Obama was against extending executive power, but President Obama seems for it. I wonder what happened?

"I, Barack Obama, do solemnly swear"

Ohh.... I see...

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 19, 2011 3:05 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

On that we agree; something happens to people once they're elected President. And/or maybe they find out it's harder to do what they intended to, and end up having to come up with excuses why they can't do it. But there is definitely a difference between the values candidates espouse and their actions once in office...pretty much for all of them, it seems to me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 19, 2011 3:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Again, how many times do I have to tell you, THAT is why you don't give ANY President the kinds of powers that were so gladly handed to Bush. Once granted, they'll NEVER be given back, at least not without a hell of a fight, and a lot of lost ground.

I pointed out years ago that this is supposedly a nation of laws, but that laws are generally based on precedent. If something becomes commonplace enough, and widely accepted, it can very well become "legal" as a result. We had one President ordering the torture of "undesirables"; if another President does it, and if there isn't strenuous objection via court challenges, then it becomes precedent, and de facto LEGAL, to torture people in this country.

Or, as Geezer would say, "those were just Campaign Promises".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, June 19, 2011 4:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mikey nailed it.

Also, this is my feeling about taxes. In the glee to punish the wealthy and get back them, some folk would like to see the top bracket move up from its current scheduled 50% (+20%+10%+7% etc) to 75%, not realizing that a 4:1 or 10:1 currency devaluation is very possible in an effort to get out of this debt, and anything you do to the 100k+ or 250k+ could be you in a couple years.

On the right, ditto with the fair tax. You give them the right to put on a national sales tax, they're going to keep that, and keep pushing it up, and they'll never give you back the income tax.

All govts. keep all power they are ever given. They only give it up when they fall. Look at Rome.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 5:35 AM

HARDWARE

I lived most of my life in Massachusetts. 3 incidents spurred me to move out.

They enacted a "temporary" tax that was to be repealed in a year. It wasn't.

Legislators voted themselves a pay raise while the economy was floundering and the budget was under water. Voters got enough signatures to put it on a public ballot and the vote overwhelmingly repealed it. They gave it back to themselves the next legislative session.

The Massachusetts turnpike was a huge investment, paid for by taxpayers. It was supposed to pay for itself in tolls and then get turned into a freeway. Once the bonds were paid off they not only kept it a turnpike they upped the tolls.

I voted with my feet. I resent every penny of tax I pay when I visit my relatives. Elected officials are not trustworthy. I'd like to see term limits of 2 terms. One in office, one in jail.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, June 20, 2011 6:07 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, Mike nailed it. Any power given will likely never be rescinded.

Good reasons to move out, Hardware. Trouble is, it's like that in many states, and will most likely be like that in all of them eventually.

Ironically, I'd like OURS to reinstute MORE taxes...namely property taxe raises, the inability of doing which has crippled us. If it weren't for Prop. 13, we'd not be in AS BAD shape as we are. Oh, and the 2/3 majority needed to pass ANYTHING.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 20, 2011 7:22 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Ironically, I'd like OURS to reinstute MORE taxes...namely property taxe raises, the inability of doing which has crippled us. If it weren't for Prop. 13, we'd not be in AS BAD shape as we are. Oh, and the 2/3 majority needed to pass ANYTHING.

There, let's see if that whacks the *L*A*V*E*N*D*A*R* text.
I support the " split- roll" property tax movement. Keep single family residential property on the existing Prop 13 rules-- that will keep Grandma from being thrown out of the house where she's lived for 50 years, the original emotionally loaded argument for Prop 13, and a good, fair notion. But make it much easier to raise property taxes on commercial, agricultural, industrial, and multi unit property and second homes. Those are all properties being used as a business, to make a profit. So tax 'em higher.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 7:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sounds good to me. As one of those "grandmas" (sans kids), I sure appreciate it not going up, as it's part of what's allowed us to stay here. But either way, the current situation is insane and I'd like to see it changed SOMEHOW. Fucking Reagan (and yes, he DID start the idea with Prop. 1 and his backing of Prop. 13).

Sorry my love of color and fonts cause you problems, but you're right, it works now. I DID try to get it so the color wouldn't bleed over, so I'm not sure what more I could have done. And I'm not willing to give it up, so I'm glad you fixed it for your posts (it doesn't do that to anyone else anymore, I think?).

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 20, 2011 7:43 AM

SKYDIVELIFE

Just going to put my 2 cents in on this conversation. Forgive the intrusion.

I think, what we need is an old-fashioned, spaghetti-western type in the White House.

Someone who the power won't change.

Right or wrong, this person will stay true to who they are. I have only met this type of person a few times in my life. But each and every time, they were worth the remembering. I might have disagreed with them over some things, but the steel they had was something that inspired me.

President Obama is not that type of person. Not even close. I was never a fan, but I've seen things he's allowed to happen, forced to happen, and Im concerned.

I've heard it said that he is nothing more than a puppet. A pretty, African-American puppet, that can be made to dance, while also being used as a "gotcha" kind of tool.

I don't know the man well enough to say if thats true or not. But, from what I've seen... it fits.

So, I say again. We need a man of steel. Someone power won't corrupt, or hasn't corrupted. The men I met who were like that are all dead, but there must be someone like that out there.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 7:50 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ron Paul.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, June 20, 2011 8:43 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Hardware, my concept was even more brutal.
Tamper proof explosive collars - if 51% of your constituency pushes the button, you lose your head.

SkyDive, no need to apologize, think of this place as a mosh pit, dive right in, and bounce those opinions off the walls - just wear some thick leather, hee.

And what we need is a leader willing to more or less commit political suicide, kind of like what I refer to in business as the "KMA Club" - the old bastard who's already got enough pension/retirement that he can damn well speak his mind to the ivory tower bosses cause they can't really DO shit to him.

That was one reason I listened to Ross Perot, but as soon as he started asking for near-dictatorial power and promising to give it back after things got fixed (See Also: Hardwares issues above) I cut off all and any support for him on the spot.

Hugo Chavez is gonna learn the hard way, or at least Venezuela will, that no matter HOW MUCH you trust a leader, how decent a person he is, handing them unlimited power makes em crazy, for one, and two, the next guy is prolly not gonna be so circumspect or restrained, nor is he likely to have the same views and agendas as before - we're seeing this with Obama using all the levers folks handed Bush, instead of breaking them in half and chucking them in the trash like he promised.

And despite the counterproductive "support" of too many morons for my liking...
(Get OFF my side, boy, any "help" from you is pure poison!)
I can certainly see Ron Paul as prez or veep in a function very similar to the "KMA Club", problem is the executive office is in fact legally quite limited in what it can do, and unlike many former and the current chair polishers, he would actually respect those limits, so ya couldn't expect miracles even then.

I'd pay good money to see an Alan Grayson/Ron Paul bi-partisan or independant ticket though.

Oh yeah, and that's the other problem, lever-pullers, and honestly after Bush I can hardly blame em - but so long as he has (R) after his name, a lotta people wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole even if he was the second coming, because of "party baggage" and how those bastards will parely every advance he makes into doing ten times as much damage in the other direction, which is something you ALSO have to think about, as well, since Congress has far more power than the Executive, and if you go enable them by putting up a tolerable figurehead they'll just run flat over....

Think: They call it a mandate, throw down a bill to revoke the Bill of Rights entire, wholesale - Ron of course vetos it, and then they run his ass over, secure the margin and blow past the veto...

THEN where are we ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 9:06 AM

BYTEMITE

Obama is infighting with the Clintons, and he doesn't have the connections to make policy like they do. So he's less a puppet and more of a lame duck. Losing supermajority didn't help.

George W. Bush is more of the traditional example of a puppet, as he was pretty much controlled by Cheney.

On the surface, it's hard to see much difference. Neither one is wholly innocent, either.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 9:25 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:

Think: They call it a mandate, throw down a bill to revoke the Bill of Rights entire, wholesale - Ron of course vetos it, and then they run his ass over, secure the margin and blow past the veto...

THEN where are we ?

Then we are past that awkward stage and it is time to start shooting the bastards.

I have held that if any one of the first 10 amendments are revoked or nullified the whole Constitution goes away. Then there is no president, no congress, no supreme court. We're back to our individual states.

The Nixon administration authored a white paper on what the reaction of the military would be if the constitution were suspended or revoked. 1/2 of the Navy and Air Force, 3/4 of the Army and virtually the entire Marine Corps said they would not follow a president who suspended the Constitution. Instead they would follow the commands of their officers. Bad situation that. Fratricide for certain, even if the "good guys" come out on the winning side. That was the 70's. I know the military sponsors these studies from time to time. I wonder what the ratios are now?

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, June 20, 2011 9:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Ron Paul

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, June 20, 2011 9:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
old-fashioned, spaghetti-western type in the White House

Well, there was Reagan... Aside from which, the Tea Party is an example of sticking to their guns, right or wrong, and it SUX! Once again, and I'll keep saying it: Compromise is the only way anything gets done, moderation is far more sensible than "my way or the highway".

And Sky, it’s no “intrusion”, you’re a member just like anyone else, so you can contribute whatever you want. Not intruding at all.

I agree with Byte about Obama:

Quote:
George W. Bush is more of the traditional example of a puppet, as he was pretty much controlled by Cheney

There’s some of that with Obama, I’m guessing, but it’s more that he’s so DAMNED focused on “bipartisanship” that he’ll sell us under the bus in an attempt to get it---which he won’t anyway!

Quote:
Then we are past that awkward stage and it is time to start shooting the bastards.

Aw, Kriste, Hardware, haven’t we had ENOUGH of that since the last election? It’s not as simple as you make out, as we’ve discussed a dozen times before, and if nothing else, I was glad to see the last of all that bullshit once the Republicans got what they wanted.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 20, 2011 9:57 AM

SKYDIVELIFE

Niki2 wrote: "And Sky, it’s no “intrusion”, you’re a member just like anyone else, so you can contribute whatever you want. Not intruding at all.
"

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Wulfenstar: I think Ron Paul is very close to what I was talking about. I disagree with him on some things, but mostly he is "right" as I see things. And, I don't believe that anyone can say he HASN'T stuck to his guns for the entire time he has been in office. Not to mention, all of his votes have been in line with the Constitution.

Also, the links you usually post are YouTube videos? I'm not sure if they are trying to make a point, but I do enjoy some of them. Especially these last two. Granted they were music videos, but they were, in my opinion, very good songs. I'm looking to add them to my Itunes collection.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 12:07 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

........", and I've said it before but I'll say it again, cus I've never needed government to hold my hand...."

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, June 20, 2011 12:11 PM

SKYDIVELIFE

Wulfenstar:

Thats funny, because I started thinking that the "Independents" flag SHOULD have been of the "Don't Tread on Me" variety.

But I guess that was implied.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 12:17 PM

HARDWARE

Happy to disappoint you Niki. If the Bill of Rights goes away, so does the Constitution.

But I'm not saying that democrats need shooting. Anybody who votes for a repeal of the Bill of Rights needs to get acquainted with a bullet pocked wall.

At the very least it means going back to the state governments and a dissolution of the union.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, June 20, 2011 1:42 PM

KWICKO

Hasn't the Fourth Amendment already been ruled null and void?

S'wenyways, back to politicians and such... Ron Paul will stick to his guns, no doubt, but what good does that do you?

What I'm asking is, *IF* Obama were to stick to his guns, stand by his convictions, put his foot down and firmly say, "This, AND NO MORE!" - THEN what? You'd have (a) Republicans who would shout to let it all collapse, and (b) Democrats who would shout to hurry up and compromise before it all collapses.

So what does the big principled stand do for you? It looks good on TV, and it gets reimagined on The West Wing, and it doesn't get anything really done.

You know why? Because even IF Ron Paul were willing to be a one-and-done Prez, he has a whole Congress beneath him, and a whole Cabinet alongside him, who are career politicians, and who want to still have jobs after the next election cycle. 535 to 1 is pretty long odds, honestly.

So you need a Prez who doesn't give two shits about his re-election, you need power in Congress, and you need that majority to ALSO not give a fuck about getting elected again, and you have to really COMMIT to the idea that you're probably going to lose power, not for a year, not for an election cycle, but for more like a generation.

How often have you seen those kind of cajones in your life? Kennedy pulled it off in October '62, and look where that got him.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, June 20, 2011 5:35 PM

DREAMTROVE

Frem,

I would like to call for a modification: If 51% pushes the button, you lose your job.

Here's why: If you run your reign of terror the people you get in office will be dumber than the ones you have now.

The problem with dumb people is that gives the advisors more power, and I know that the advisors are not people you care for.

HW,

No such thing as a temporary tax. I remember when the British repealed a tax that had been running for something like 1000 years. I don't remember which it was, the one to fund the defense against the vikings? the window tax? something like that. Yes, taxes do go away: When it costs more to collect them then they are worth. Not for any other reason.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, June 20, 2011 11:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

There was more to that than just the Nixon administration, Hardware, the now infamous twenty-nine palms survey, and other various tests and measures showed that sufficient military personnell *WOULD* fire blue-on-blue in such a case, and if even one-in-fifteen did it was sufficient to collapse the whole REX-84/GARDEN PLOT concept-plan.

And so they changed their training methods, borrowing heavily from the behavior-modification concepts developed and refined by WWASPS in order to do so.

Which in part explains my hatred for both, given that nefarious relationship eventually developed into enhanced interrogation and rendition, some of which is at this time carried out *AT* former hellcamps, and some of the former inmates are the fuckers doing so, you see.

My response to being asked many of the same questions, specifically whether I would fire on americans who refused to hand over their arms - was that I would on the spot take the officer who gave the order into custody in accordance with the UCMJ and render him unto the civilian authorities for prosecution immediately - this was not the answer they wanted and I was rather blatantly informed any hope of career advancement from that point was a lost cause - one reason that despite involvement in the uglier end of the business I was never, EVER promoted again.

Our current military *WOULD*, absolutely and without question carry out those orders, the Oathkeepers are not a sufficient bulwark, any thought of disobeying illegal orders is mere lip service as they constantly test and measure - those who would make such a stand are washed out in Basic/AIT, as a certainty, and part of their training regimen these days not only demonizes and dehumanizes our current Opfors, but also quite specifically demonizes *US*, the civvies, as weak-kneed, terror-symp pansies who need a lesson in who's in charge....

So I wouldn't count too goddamn much on the moral decency or squeamishness of the military, look at Katrina and what happened there as an example of their test run, okay ?

Which is *WHY* I consider them The Enemy, even now, and I do not whatsoever in any material or other fashion "support the troops" - when we have a fucking brigade of the Dirty 3rd right here on "Homeland" duty intended to pacify *US* if we don't bend the knee, DESPITE the simple fact that *WE*, collectively, are supposed to be the civil authority they're bound to.

Anyone in uniform who sees me as potential target, Opfors, or mission objective has broken their Oath of Service, pissed on all it means, and can go fuck themselves.

-Frem

Select to view spoiler:

Kyubey, you just got *bitched*!

ALL HAIL MADOKA !!

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Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You pretty much nailed it for me, Mike:

Quote:
What I'm asking is, *IF* Obama were to stick to his guns, stand by his convictions, put his foot down and firmly say, "This, AND NO MORE!" - THEN what? You'd have (a) Republicans who would shout to let it all collapse, and (b) Democrats who would shout to hurry up and compromise before it all collapses.

So what does the big principled stand do for you? It looks good on TV, and it gets reimagined on The West Wing, and it doesn't get anything really done.

You know why? Because even IF Ron Paul were willing to be a one-and-done Prez, he has a whole Congress beneath him, and a whole Cabinet alongside him, who are career politicians, and who want to still have jobs after the next election cycle. 535 to 1 is pretty long odds, honestly.

So you need a Prez who doesn't give two shits about his re-election, you need power in Congress, and you need that majority to ALSO not give a fuck about getting elected again, and you have to really COMMIT to the idea that you're probably going to lose power, not for a year, not for an election cycle, but for more like a generation.

Trashing Obama and calling him names is quite easy, and “sticking to your guns” sounds good, but the President doesn’t decide things unless Congress lets him, and sticking to one’s guns TO A POINT is admirable, but to refuse entirely to compromise or even discuss compromising is not, to me, admirable at all when it comes to running the country for the good of its citizens.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 21, 2011 6:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem,

Quote:
Our current military *WOULD*, absolutely and without question carry out those orders, the Oathkeepers are not a sufficient bulwark, any thought of disobeying illegal orders is mere lip service as they constantly test and measure - those who would make such a stand are washed out in Basic/AIT, as a certainty

is a large part of why I mock all this secessionist and “Second Amendment rights” bullshit. People seem to think the Army wouldn’t fire on civilians, but given the indoctrination the military utilizes in training, I don’t think that’s true. For one thing, they’d feel they were DEFENDING the Constitution and the country.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:19 AM

SKYDIVELIFE

Niki2 wrote: "...is a large part of why I mock all this secessionist and “Second Amendment rights” bullshit. People seem to think the Army wouldn’t fire on civilians, but given the indoctrination the military utilizes in training, I don’t think that’s true. For one thing, they’d feel they were DEFENDING the Constitution and the country."

Unfortunately, I agree. At least at the start. One can only hope that if we ever need to bring down the federal government, that (in time) the military would quit. But there are too many example where they didn't. The Civil War, Waco and Ruby Ridge... etc.

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 5:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually, imma go into this one, cause the concept needs desperately to be re-addressed anyway.

See, thing about that glorious last stand bullshit is... it buys you NOTHING, not even a decent martyrdom, not when you have a complicit mainstream media who will helpfully demonize you, IF you get any attention at all - anyone ELSE happen to remember Ed Brown, ehe ?

But not just that, it's fuckin STUPID, tactically - when an opponent outguns and outnumbers you straight up on the field of battle, why in holy hell would you go meet them there on their terms ?
Look, just because our army generals are so stupid they haven't learned a goddamn thing since the somme, still think hey-diddle-diddle-straight-up-the-middle is a good idea despite it having NOT worked since the machinegun was invented, and still think in terms of gotterdammerung land, sea and air battles that don't even EXIST in the modern world anymore doesn't obligate you to follow their fuckin idiocy, you know.

If an opponent can stomp you in open field battle, then maybe it's a bloody good idea NOT TO MEET THEM THERE.
Fuck honor, fuck nobility and decency, for all the lip service chair polishing officers give such things a thousand miles away in their air conditioned offices, the stark realities of killing people over something ain't so nice - to hell with marching out shoulder to shoulder and playing all nicey-nicey with folk who want your ass dead, where's the honor and dignity in white phosphorous landing on your field hospital while the other side giggles to themselves as they watch your burning friends run screaming in little circles ?

You know what the difference between blasting them on the battlefield and slitting their throats in the dark while they're asleep really is, REALLY ?
The latter actually accomplishes something, and without getting you killed besides.
When it comes to the idea of your ass being on the line up against folks who wanna make you dead, it's long past time to dispense with the ridiculous notions of fair play and proper conduct, cause when the rubber meets the road, those WILL go out the window - why you think the Qeadas are kickin our ass, ain't cause of superior numbers or firepower, it's cause they fight dirty and intelligently, not to mention they're (mostly) not milking a war for profit, power and prestige like we are, and yeah, in case ya hadn't noticed, it's the officers who never stick their neck out what get all the medals and the glory while all you grunts get is another chance to get dead.

And therein lies the rub, back in the days of Napoleon it was said the morale is to the physical as three to one, and honestly I think it's more than that, especially in light of the fact that our units will come completely apart at less than 10% casualties (or any, if you hit the radio first and the brain dead fuckers don't have command to hold their hands every step of the way) and theirs can soak 50% or more and still function - yeah, they're religiously intolerant scumbag gits, but they're smart, tough ones, curse it all.

Anyhow, you don't *HAVE* to gun down "The Troops" when they wind up sent in to pacify YOU - all you have to do is break their will to do it, and you don't do that by going toe to toe at a massive disparity of firepower and numbers, oh hell no - you fight them psychologically, you BREAK THEM, mentally, and their training and indoctrination has already handed you the means on a silver platter.

Firstoff, there's rote and ritual, the highly ritualized CULT-ure, of the military, and their precious little sacraments, which'd be your first victims - smoke bomb the bastards while they're trying to eat, steal their mail, comb it for items of psyops value and fuck with them about it via hidden loudspeakers, handily boobytrapped - cut em off from human contact, shun em, turn your back when they speak, refuse to do ANY business with them and squirrel away anything they might wanna seize, most especially food.

And conversely, on the other end, have an "evangelism" team pointing out how they are violating their oath of service, the constitution, and so on, by quoting the goddamn things and pointing out in detail - not once or twice, but over and over, playing on the same rote-ritual indoctrination used to set them against you and turning it to YOUR favor, ask if "Just Following Orders" is really satisfying to em, and make sure you do so to individuals or small groups without the officers or NCOs camping them so they can't use their collective will of ignorance as a barrier - over time you can build a fifth column this way and instead of being driven batshit by the harrassment and shunning, they too will be grinning up their sleeves.

In good time, you'll subvert the whole goddamn unit if not cause an outright mutiny, which will solidify the survivors (provided you throw your assistance/firepower in at a critical moment when the amount of it you have WILL have an affect and tip the balance) ever more to your side when they see just how far their so-called leaders are willing to go - it's one hell of a wakeup call.

And this most important, give em a choice, or at least what looks like one.

Quote:
"Oh you don't have to stick around, go ahead and run, if ya like - if you think you can make it alone, or you can go back, and see if the bastards who would shoot you for even questioning their will might forgive and forget, sure - or you could stay here, maybe make a LIFE for yourself, instead of a death, all up to you, boy."

But play THEIR game, with THEIR deck, on THEIR table, by THEIR rules ?
People, that's not just stupid, that's insane - and it's just what they WANT you to do, that's why such is discretely encouraged, in much the same fashion as the "magicians force" so-called "choice" above.
All they show you is the bait, but there's a gleaming, razor sharp hook in there and ya oughta have sense to know that.

Of course, I got a hook too - everybody does, and anyone who tells ya different is lying, but I'm honest enough to show you the damn thing up front and give you a choice about which one you'd rather have buried in your hide.
And that's more than you'll get from most.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:49 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Posted by Frem:

Of course, I got a hook too - everybody does, and anyone who tells ya different is lying, but I'm honest enough to show you the damn thing up front and give you a choice about which one you'd rather have buried in your hide.
And that's more than you'll get from most.

Hey, it may be a hook, but if it's buried in your hide voluntarily, it's more of a piercing! Wear it with pride!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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