The last statement of Tom Ball (Very good child support information) by Hardware

Yeah, well - the guy had mental health issues, that much is clear, which makes it all the more tragic that he's got a damn good point about that "Second Set of Books" and how our court/judicial system REALLY works, sure.

He *did* need to be pulled up short over the initial offense, IMHO - but honestly that comes across as a mental health issue more than a direct act of malice and criminal offense, a case of not-knowin-better and simple ignorance, which can be rectified outside the legal system cause such things don't have much of a place there.

And rather than helping him, society and "the system" pushed the guy further and further back into a corner, exponentially winding up the mental issues he had to begin with - hell you can almost SEE how the breakdown went piece by piece via his letter, where he just started to completely fucking lose it - and just like Marvin Heemeyer, or that guy who flew his plane into the IRS, or any number of small town shootouts when someone is pushed back into a corner with no recourse, violence results.

As I point out often enough regarding terrorism, it is the death of hope which makes people DO shit like this, you leave em no hope, no way out, nothing but aye-or-die, you think they won't DO it ?

And of course SkyDive also nails the salient point of the simple fact that EVERY Government directive, no matter how petty, no matter how minor, is backed by lethal force and threat, everything from the crime of homicide, all the way down to having too many weeds in your yard, defiance *WILL* eventually result in your death.

So the question in THAT respect is, before you involve the authorities, you really need to ask yourself if you're willing to kill someone, over this - cause in the end, that's what it comes down to, that's the "or else" at the end of EVERY Government edict of any kind whatsoever.

That said, I still think it ludicrous to try to use the LEGAL sytem, to solve a SOCIAL problem, it may be possible, but it seems the most halfassed, ass-backwards method possible, and we really *do* need another solution - a concept which is what lead to Child Protective Services and Family Courts, which by virtue of attachment to the Federal beauracracy were inevitably poisoned from the get-go and are currently so broken and underfunded that they're downright counterproductive to their purpose.

I gotta think on this a while if you want a better answer, but if you pick through the escalating crazy (and I can damn well tell that when this guy reached out for "help" some dickheads amongst the women-are-evil crowd exploited the hell out of the situation and wound him up even worse, and I feel they should be held accountable for it) you realize there *WAS* a point where this could have been addressed, and probably resolved, *IF* there were any proper resources to do so - which we as a society and human beings have on a general basis failed utterly to provide.

That *IS* something fixable, it's a matter of how, and how to properly hold accountable those involved, without just creating another all-devouring Governmental monstrosity, of which we already have too many.

Again, gotta think about that, a while.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 12:48 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Perhaps his point would've been better made by setting someone else on fire? And a video camera.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 2:01 PM

Man who refuses to financially support his children and believes that 'feminists' have invented the concept of domestic violence to rule the world kills himself publically and horrifically.

I guess he really is thinking about his kids in all this. Not.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 2:06 PM

Frem, it is easy to blame the 'system' when someone does something crazy like this. We see it all the time here, and it is especially poignant when parents kill their children and the 'system' is blamed. I'm not saying people don't get pushed around by authorities, but you still have choices around your behaviour, and if you feel you have no choice, then really, you have some serious mental health issues.

I'm betting that if this man had done anything other than refuse to pay child support for years, he could have made an arrangement to pay it off. And really, $3000 for 10 years separation is pretty low. How much does raising 3 kids cost? Did he ever consider that?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 2:28 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

The error of all such court orders is the failure to take into account that splitting a household cuts income in half and doubles the expenses. There is zero provision for unemployment, or reduction of income.

When my brother the lawyer was jailed for non-payment of $150,000 in legal fees OWED BY HIS SEPARATED wife in the Russian Mafiya to her jewish lawyer, the (jewish?) judge said my brother had a $6-million annual income... This same judge was a convicted deadbeat dad who broke his wife's arm (1 of his 4 wives). After 10 days in jail, my brother had to sign a contract with the judge to give up his legal career, FOREVER, or he would stay in jail FOREVER.

Non payment of child support or alimony is civil contempt of court, which is a life sentence on death row -- no bail, no trial, no appeal allowed.

My brother did later sue his ex-wife's lawyer for $300,000 legal malpractice, on behalf of a client. The judge was later sued for $1-million libel by my brother's former stripper client who was jailed on a life sentence for not returning a chest of drawers to her ex.

"And he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
-Jesus Christ, Luke 22:36, Holy Bible

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 3:00 PM

I can never really understand the US system on such things. Here child support issues rarely end up in court because we have a Child Support Agency which takes care of it. Of course the CSA has powers that would make most Americans choke up bits of their constitution flavoured cookies, being able to access tax department information and able to make deductions from people's wages even without their consent, but you do have lots of avenue for appeal - all free of charge. The formula for child support DOES take into account unemployment, and you'll have your amount reduced to virtually nothing if you lose your job. Needless to say this system is seen as grossly unfair as well by many who jump up and down about the CSA, with both payers and payees claim in equal amounts that they are being ripped off.

PN is right (lordy I can't believe in saying this) in that separation results in increased costs for two households, and both parents and their children suffer a loss of standard of living, at least initially. The issue is about supporting children. Some parents, often fathers, don't seem to realise that their children still need a roof over their heads, still need to eat, be clothed, have some kind of life slightly comparable to pre splitsville family, regardless of their parents being unable to get it together enough to make a relationship survive their childhood. Some of the most economically disadvantaged children in this country live in single parent households, so it aint exactly happy days for them when a parent suddenly decides that their financial involvement with their children stops when the divorce comes through.

And re unemployment and paying child support - what happens when the parent who has the children most of the time loses their income? Do they just stop supporting the kids financially? 'Sorry kids, no income, you'll have to starve for the next two years?'

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 5:40 PM

Magons, that's exactly the rub though - the guy *did* have mental health issues, and that COULD have been addressed right after the initial conflict, and wasn't, causing a rube-goldberg cascade-failure over time between his ears (again, stirred up by folk with an agenda, who oughta be themselves held responsible in part) which eventually resulted in this, which didn't have to happen.

Believe me, you'd be utterly appalled at how slapdash, ineffective, underfunded and all but useless american mental health care is as a whole, it's fuckin pitiful, beyond even the describing in words - no words can even come close, not to mention the lack of privacy and complete ostracisation of those who would dare even try to make use of what resources might be available.

Quote:
And re unemployment and paying child support - what happens when the parent who has the children most of the time loses their income? Do they just stop supporting the kids financially? 'Sorry kids, no income, you'll have to starve for the next two years?'

THEORETICALLY, that's where stuff like AFDC/Welfare and Unemployment benefits come in - but in practice, yeah, that's kind of how it goes, at least for the six and more fuckin months they'll have to spend hopping through hoops, gathering proofs and paperwork (which isn't even read or put in the file most of the time, it's just to frustrate them into going away or in hopes they sink below survival threshold before the case is processed) and dancing on cue in such a fashion that ALSO has the additional hassle of making it all but impossible to seek new employment in the meantime - and if you DO get a case processed, the MOMENT someone does hire you, they'll yank that rug out of you within 24 hours and often as not, send you a goddamn BILL for the last months benefits.

And mind you, the republicans want MORE hoops, MORE delays, MORE harrassment - not because folk are "gaming the system", since by now you realize how insanely prideful americans as a rule are and how bad off most of em would have to be to lower themselves to begging for help in this fashion... but because of a hatred for "peons" and the attitude that those folk would be better off dead than sucking up resources THEY could own.

Didja know, you can be ARRESTED in most american cities for feeding the hungry and homeless - that the stigmata and derision amongst government and those within against poverty is THAT high ?

So yeah, it's not like this doesn't become a problem - since in order to obtain that child support, they make almost NO allowances for the survival of the person they're taking it from, and where the fuck are they gonna get any more money if they can't pay their rent, car insurance and the like, and become unemployed BECAUSE of it ?
I've seen it happen, too damn many times, and while I am indeed a strong advocate of women and children, this crazy bastard did have some points which really DO need addressing within a system as broken as it's even possible to be.

The american version of the social safety net is a sick, sad little joke - at it's very BEST it offers just enough to barely, maybe survive, at the expense of all else, while never ever quite letting folk get back up on their feet, and at it's worst... leaves you to die.
Remember: That damn near happened to me, after the accident which near killed me back in 92.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 5:45 PM

Magons,
In the US your support amount is fixed, regardless of your income. Lose your job? Too bad, you'd better make those payments or else.

And Tom Bell did lose his job, that's why he was behind on child support payments. Never mind that the system is completely engineered to remove the man from a relationship as soon as there is a domestic violence arrest, regardless if that was the actual situation or not. If the police officer checks the wrong box, too bad, bucko. It's on you to prove your innocence.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 6:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Magons,
In the US your support amount is fixed, regardless of your income. Lose your job? Too bad, you'd better make those payments or else.

And Tom Bell did lose his job, that's why he was behind on child support payments. Never mind that the system is completely engineered to remove the man from a relationship as soon as there is a domestic violence arrest, regardless if that was the actual situation or not. If the police officer checks the wrong box, too bad, bucko. It's on you to prove your innocence.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

A quick google indicates that you are incorrect regarding modifying child support.See http://www.child-support-america.com/new-hampshire-child-support.html. I believe this man fell within New Hampshire jursidiction, so there are means for modifying the order if a payers circumstances change, as I so suspected. A court of course, would take a dim view of someone who was voluntarily unemployed, however I suspect that this man's child support payment was low, given that he only owed $3000 for 10 years for 3 children which averages $5 per week. That'll buy your kids one McDonalds meal per week over here. Hardly worth setting yourself on fire for, in my sane opinion.

Generally, in my experience, relationships end because people want them to end, not because of any system. I've known plenty of women who have lived in relationships where both they and there children are subjected to violence, and not been forced to leave it. I doubt that the situation in the states is much different.

The situation becomes sticky when one person in the relationship is either violent, controlling, has severe mental health issues, or all of the above. Then you are in a terrible situation as they use courts and child support and the children to pay back the person who left the relationship.

The moral to the story is, pick the parent of your children very, very carefully and basically if they demonstrate any of the above, don't have kids.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, June 17, 2011 7:24 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

So, he slapped a 4-year-old girl hard enough to split her lip, he blamed his wife for calling the cops, he refused to lift a finger to try to save his marriage, and this is all WASHINGTON'S fault?

This guy prides himself on "being a man", but he freely admits he's "man" enough to brutalize a little girl. Why exactly am I supposed to feel sorry for him?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:54 AM

Must be a terrible burden to be perfect like you Kwicko. After all Tom Bell is the only person who ever lost his temper with his children and acted rashly. Got more stones you want to throw?

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 2:24 AM

Oh, I'm FAR from perfect, HW. In fact, I can relate to his kids because I was beaten pretty regularly as a child, and my father taught my older brothers the same lessons, so I got it from them as well.

This handing down of violence from father to child is the single biggest reason why I never had children myself. I couldn't even run the risk that I'd turn out like dad. It's also why I left home at 15. I couldn't muster any tears for my own father's funeral because they'd been beaten out of me decades before, so I sure as hell ain't likely to squeeze out any for this guy, who "acted rashly" in a serial pattern for a decade.

The only thing he did right was kill himself WITHOUT killing his ex-wife and family first.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:28 AM

Sounds like a bit of projection going on here. This whole thing was precipitated by a single bad decision. Of course, that is based on one side of a 3 sided story. We have Tom's side. Mrs. Ball's side and the State's side. I notice the widow Ball and the state are notably silent on their actions.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:22 AM

Oh, his whole 15-page rambler was chock full of projection; on that, you're 100% correct. He blamed the federal government (was he ever IN a federal court on any charges?), his wife, "feminism", liberalism, courts, attorneys, Child Protective Services, mental health services, and seemingly any- and everyone but himself.

What I find surprising is that it seems he's being lauded as some kind of right-wing hero for steadfastly refusing to take responsibility for his own actions and his own poor choices. I thought taking personal responsibility was supposed to be some kind of hallmark of conservative values.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 12:01 PM

Whoa whoa, before we get into the tit-for-tat spat, a moment here, if you would ?

Firstoff, much as *I* find it destructive and repulsive, if you asked some people... you know, like Dobson, for example, about that slap they would say it was good parenting.
(You can just see me wincing, when I type that, yes ?)

Thing is, abuse doesn't JUST happen due to malice, ignorance, stupidity and mental illness are as likely to be primary or secondary factors as anything else, MORE likely in fact cause most people have empathy despite our social structures every effort to crush it out.

And ignorance, stupidity - that's fixable, although IMHO simply teaching them a better way isn't sufficient, they need to be exposed in an unignorable way to the eventual CONSEQUENCES, shown the end of the path where that leads, and believe you me, I can make a believer out of em, gimme four hours.

Also, worth a third mention is this: he didn't think up those little sound-byte slogans all by his lonesome, any more than Wulfie does the ones he regurgitates here on a regular basis, someone with an agenda fed him that stuff, on purpose, taking advantage of his issues for their own gain, and you can bet they're practically passing around the champagne right now over what happened.
Me, I think they're in part culpable, and damn well OUGHT to be held responsible for that.

"Just Words" is a bullshit phrase, words can be abuse, words can harm, even kill, one reason why I consider violent rhetoric to be dangerous, as an incitement to actions which exploit the psychological weakness of other people - you think I do not *know* this, given that I don't really have a lotta moral high ground in that regard ?
Someone wound him up and set him off, ON PURPOSE.

Sure, we're all responsible for our own actions, even those taken as a direct result of manipulation and disinformation, but there's a chain of responsibility that gets shared - if I tell you that guy is breaking into your house, and you assault him, then find out you just beat up the meter reader, does that make me completely innocent - morally if not legally ?
I do not think so, myself.

And yeah, verily, there's no doubt more involved with this case than we've been told - but the application of common sense indicates this fellow had untreated issues, and someone exploited them.
THAT point I want crystal freakin clear.

Now go on and have your ping-pong match, if you like.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:02 PM

Quote:
And yeah, verily, there's no doubt more involved with this case than we've been told - but the application of common sense indicates this fellow had untreated issues, and someone exploited them.
THAT point I want crystal freakin clear.

Yup, point taken. No need for a "ping-pong match" as you put it; I just want to point out that yes, the system failed this guy, but only AFTER he failed as a parent. I see it as an opportunity to refine the system and make it work BETTER, rather than throw it out in its entirety. The engineering term "test to failure" comes to mind; this incident tested both human and system to failure. So how do we work towards making a system that DOESN'T allow this, yet still allows a safety net?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 1:56 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Much good stuff has been mentioned and I, too, see this as a FAR from black-and-white scenario. The system is bad, unquestionably, partly because it is overburdened (this while they’re cutting MORE government jobs...). I got horror stories I could tell you of how mothers AND fathers have been abused by “the system” (Child Protective Services specifically). And yes, there are problems with men getting a fair shake on some issues, unquestionably. There are also (and in my opinion, more) issues with women who then go on to care for the children alone not getting a fair shake, and it’s a lot easier to be a dead-beat dad than for someone who’s been a mother to provide for their kids when all they can do is rely on the guy who was supposed to be there helping fuck them over. As well as the many, many women who feel stuck in abusive situations because they have no VIABLE option. This is a real grey area to me which has to be looked at on an individual basis; generalizations don’t solve anything.

I’m not going to take the time to read the whole thing. But “bullied for being a man”? You gotta be kidding. “Federal Government declared war on men”? You HAVE to be joking. The 25 years ago that he speaks of; how many women MADE the laws?? “After six months of me not lifting a finger she filed for divorce”---hate to tell you, but that one’s on him, pure and simple. It could have been worked out if he’d tried, he’s as much as saying so himself. If he’d spent just HALF the time trying to work things out as he did writing his diatribe, maybe they never would have gotten divorced. Screw the “proper resources”, HE should have been the one to work the issue out; what she did was ill-advised, but both of them were responsible for putting things right since they’d started it in motion.

The mental-health worker pisses me off. That’s not HELP, and surely she could have helped if she had any brains and compassion...in other words, if she did her JOB. “This country is run by idiots”. This surprises exactly WHOM? “That should make the domestic violence feminists ecstatic-man bad, woman good.” – What can you say about such a statement? Domestic-violence feminists aren’t “ecstatic” over ANYTHING having to do with domestic violence; women left to raise kids alone is only slightly better than woman in domestic-violence situation. They’ve just tried to equal the playing field a LITTLE, which hasn’t worked as well as it should, but has its good and bad points.

By the time I gave up reading, this looked more like a rant against the government than anything having to do with his own situation. I think Magons sums it up nicely:

Quote:
Man who refuses to financially support his children and believes that 'feminists' have invented the concept of domestic violence to rule the world

Three thousand dollars? To die over some “principle” like this is meaningless...it doesn’t help anyone, it doesn’t fix the problem or the system, it’s just horribly sad that someone is so angry at feminists and the government that they would kill themselves over it. I can see that as nothing else but a mental issue. Anyone with sense, whatever the situation, would realize that it wouldn’t make a dent in anything, much less start a “war”! How many ever even heard about it? There was no purpose, only someone who needed help and didn’t get it.

And yes, in many places change of financial status can change amount of support. Here in California definitely.

By the way, Magons:

Quote:
being able to access tax department information and able to make deductions from people's wages even without their consent

They do that here too.

Lastly, it’s not just men. Choey is still paying off child support – luckily they let her pay what she can since the kids are long grown and she’s disabled. But her husband wasn’t making much less than her at the time, and there’s a lot more to it, about (not violent) abuse perpetuated on her by her alcoholic husband and her RAISING the kids after he left which was never taken into account. Choey’s not the litigation sort (she could easily have raked in a tidy sum suing the doctor who fucked up her surgery) so she just accepted it and went on paying. She should have fought. I would have. He should have. We each have a certain amount of responsibility in this stuff since the system DOESN’T work the way it should, but if we abdicate responsibility and just whine about our treatment, all I have left is pity for all involved.

Given I saw virtually no mention of the kids, their welfare, how they’ve made out since he left, or anything ELSE about them in the part I did read, I am left to see this as a guy with a grudge which he has (as we say in the mental-health community) “grinded on” until it became an obsession and blocked out everything else. It’s horribly sad, and there IS some good info there, but I have a hard time seeing him as a wronged innocent, sorry.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:10 PM

Maybe the mad ramblings of a guy about to kill himself horribly should not be taken as hard evidence on....anything really.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 5:32 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well said, Magons! Nobody put it in that context, and it may be the definitive statement about this entire thread; using one example which has questionable motives by someone with quite possibly emotional problems may not be the best way to make the desired point. Thank you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 7:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Given I saw virtually no mention of the kids, their welfare, how they’ve made out since he left, or anything ELSE about them in the part I did read...

You expected anything else ?

Shit even the media doesn't care, much LESS the courts, save as damn-near-property and whatnot, look at how the case with those two scumbag judges from PA went down - until folk see kids as PEOPLE, expecting them to be regarded as such is reaching for pie-in-the-sky.

Mind you, I've also seen a nasty divorce and such games playing as goes on personally, but by the grace of good fortune when custody was brought before a judge he, on a mere whim, had the notion to ask me *MY* opinion, which resulted in me verbally excoriating my so called father till he balled his fist at me and I picked up a sharp looking pen and the baliffs had to haul us away from each other - which kinda settled THAT matter rather firmly, heh.

But of course, even now, it's all about the adults and what THEY want, and as a general rule no one gives a damn about the opinion of less-than-human non-persons, eh ?

And I DO mean to fix that.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 7:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Start of story

Quote:
I slapped her. She got a cut lip.

A grown man slaps a 3-year old child hard enough to split a lip. The rest, as far as I can tell, are self-justifications and rationalizations.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:04 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"This whole thing was precipitated by a single bad decision."

Which single bad decision was that?

The one where he hit a SMALL CHILD hard enough to split her lip?

The one where he walked on a marriage and children by default? ("After six months of me not lifting a finger to save this marriage ...")

Was it when he decided he was a Domestic King and ENTITLED to things such as acting with impunity as long as it was in the family? Or when he decided assault leading to physical harm was not a crime ...

Perhaps it was when he decided he was above everyone without exception - police, prosecutors, judges, counselors, and conferred on himself a crown of godlike wisdom and decided only he had THE TRUTH.

I hope you understand H-ware that he's not a victim of one bad moment. He really did spend a lot of time and effort forging along that path where he chose every step.

BTW, this reminds me of several cases recently where the woman filed for divorce, got a protective order etc b/c the woman felt the husband/ boyfriend was unstable and dangerous. And the response -? I'll show that bitch - and the man got a gun and not only killed the woman but the doctor/ the MIL and SIL/ the children/ the neighbors ...

WAY TO GO DUDES!!!!!!!! You showed everybody just how wrong she was!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:42 AM

Do you know all of the details of that incident? Maybe her mouth was open and the inside of her lip was driven into the biting surfaces of her incisor? Do you know? I don't know the details.

The problems with our self-appointed judges on this forum is that you imagine you can look at a problem from your glitter-and-unicorn-filled world and see exactly where someone became a terrible person. I bet you'd all be great on a jury. You can spot a guilty person just like that.

This place reminds me of democratic underground more each day.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 5:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, I’m getting it. Here, again, you put up the topic, then had little to say of substance thereafter.

Quote:
Magons,
In the US your support amount is fixed, regardless of your income.

Quote:
Must be a terrible burden to be perfect like you Kwicko. After all Tom Bell is the only person who ever lost his temper with his children and acted rashly. Got more stones you want to throw?

Quote:
Sounds like a bit of projection going on here.

That’s essentially the sum total of what you’ve had to say. A rant against the system, and incorrect statement and snarks. Guess you have no desire to communicate. Like I said, that’s fine, it’s your right. But it speaks volumes and explains why we shouldn't necessarily try to communicate with you, either. That's a shame.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 6:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The problems with our self-appointed judges on this forum is that you imagine you can look at a problem from your glitter-and-unicorn-filled world

Um,.. I don't live in such a world. Do you?

Quote:
and see exactly where someone became a terrible person. I bet you'd all be great on a jury. You can spot a guilty person just like that.

Hardware, the letter gave me the overwhelming impression of a person desperately trying to rewrite history so as to absolve himself (and his wife, I might add) of responsibility. There is an overtone of shocked shame...

As the custodial parent of a minor I had the right...

My wife had to call the police or face arrest herself

Through some stupid mix-up it was filed as "domestic violence"

Well, the system HAD to arrest me

There are millions... no, hundred of millions... just like me

It could have been anyone

I was singled out

I provide for the family

I'm not guilty

----------------------
Yanno, otherwise good parents/ spouses do sometimes snap. But this is not the reaction of an otherwise good parent or husband. I would love to hear the wife's and daughter's side.

If you want, I can do an in-depth analysis of what I think this guy is REALLY saying, bit by bit, but as I see it he is rewriting history so that he becomes the victim not the perp. I've known a couple of habitual abusers up-close and personal, and I have to say, that this their MO. I had to intervene personally a couple of times, and in one case it involved me sitting on someone's front porch with a .22 in-hand, hoping the guy wouldn't show up, and in another case threatening my FIL with a locked and running car. (Yes, cars DO make good weapons!) So much for a unicorn-and spangle-filled world!

What I'm hearing is a lot of self-pity, and a lot of self-justification. The ONLY thing this guy did right was not kill his wife and daughter while he was at it.

As far as the legal system's response to the matter, I prefer a system that solves problems, not a system which creates more. In this case, the guy was given the "out" of counseling, which he refused. Why???

So, now you've heard responses from a number of people, several of whom were themselves abused a children, and others who've had to intervene. None of us see this guy as any kind of hero. Maybe you might want to figure out why?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 7:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Do you know all of the details of that incident? Maybe her mouth was open and the inside of her lip was driven into the biting surfaces of her incisor? Do you know? I don't know the details.

But you are prepared to defend this man and hold him up as some sort of role model, right?

Aren't YOU being more than just a bit "judgey" yourself, judging him as some kind of "victim" of the justice system, or as a "hero" to your cause? How are the unicorns in your world? Are they glittery?

Quote:

The problems with our self-appointed judges on this forum is that you imagine you can look at a problem from your glitter-and-unicorn-filled world and see exactly where someone became a terrible person. I bet you'd all be great on a jury. You can spot a guilty person just like that.

Do you feel Bill Ayers is a terrible person? Can you identify the point at which you feel he BECAME a terrible person? Maybe you don't know his whole story, eh?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 7:31 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Maybe her mouth was open and the inside of her lip was driven into the biting surfaces of her incisor?

Boy, that's a stretch in an effort to defend the indefensible. Even if that were the case, hitting a child in any way hard enough to cause injury is unsustainable.

As to judging; people have read the material (which takes long enough to do them credit in the first place!) and come to conclusions. You read the material and came to a different conclusion. Both are judging; the difference is, you chose to put this up to prove a point; you haven't proven it and you go right on snarking -- pretty pathetically I might say. YOU don't know all the details of the incident, but you're responses show you immediately took his side nonetheless, and are completely unwilling or unable to give an inch on any of the very valid points addressed. What was that about knee jerk?

You started out right off with

Quote:
This man immolated himself on the steps of the Keene, NH county courthouse on June 16th rather than be railroaded for child support.

That's not even true; that's what he BELIEVED, but not what is actually true. He had plenty of chances to solve the issue (I didn't read far enough to get to the counseling; there's another place he could have dealt with it reasonably), yet chose to kill himself over $3,000. There were many places along the line where HE could have stopped it from getting to that point, and setting onself on fire over $3,000 is all one should have to know to question his mental health.

Your view is so skewed you can't communicate, or don't want to, and your hatred is so all-encompassing all you seem to be able to do is make petty put downs which mean absolutely nothing. It truly is a shame, we need people who WANT to communicate here, not people like Raptor and Wulf, so hung up on their own ideology that any concept of facts is immediately dismissed or ignored. So we have a third (among others); we don't need more of those.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 12:36 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Do you know all of the details of that incident? Maybe her mouth was open and the inside of her lip was driven into the biting surfaces of her incisor? Do you know? I don't know the details."

Why are you defending this? The SMALL CHILD who weighed on average 35 pounds was hit IN THE FACE by an adult male who weighed on average 185 pounds. Was this a man defending his life? Or facing an out of control adult? No, this was for the serious crime of licking his hand by a SMALL CHILD who was in no way a threat.

He did not choose to swat a behind with palm. To swat a hand with a firm no after seeing her reach for a hot pan.

No, he HIT THE FACE of a very small and defenseless child AND CAUSED INJURY for the crime of making him impatient.

H-Ware - seriously - are you nuts?

ETA - Let me put this in terms you might understand --- Should it be legal for him to hit a small child in the face if that child was a stranger on the street? If you can't apply the same standards to the household as you might to strangers on the street - maybe they aren't very good standards.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:22 PM

Quote:
ETA - Let me put this in terms you might understand --- Should it be legal for him to hit a small child in the face if that child was a stranger on the street? If you can't apply the same standards to the household as you might to strangers on the street - maybe they aren't very good standards.

Most excellent point, Kiki, and one that I brought up in the spanking thread as well. If you just grabbed someone's child on the street and hit them hard enough to leave a mark or a scar, what do you suppose would happen to you?

And as Frem so often points out, why should it be so radically different if they're YOUR children instead of a stranger's? Is it okay if you view them as your "property"?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 19, 2011 11:33 PM

Hmmm, in response to being self appointed judges, actually no. We have no decision making powers over this matter or any other on this forum. What we have (and that includes you) are opinions, which we choose to share, and which differ from one another. That is why we (and that includes you) come here. To express opinions.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 20, 2011 5:21 AM

I have stated we have one part of the story. I've asked where the other 2 parts are. I haven't reached any conclusions.

From the available evidence/testimony of Mr. Ball it looks like a railroading. But we'd need more information to really decide, wouldn't we.

A good road is built with a crown. But standing on the crown in the middle makes you a target for people on either side standing in the gutter. To the folks in the left side gutter you look right. To folks in the right side gutter you look left. But the middle is the only place on the road that the rain washes the shit away and into the gutters on both sides.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 20, 2011 5:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, Hardware, you “judged” that he immolated himself rather than be railroaded – which is his side of the story. You’ve been ever so quick to judge US as judging, and to make nasty remarks about it.

However, I agree with the rest of your post, and I think it’s quite well put. Except for the fact that the inference is we’re in the gutter, but given your attitude that puts you in the other gutter, so that’s fair.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 20, 2011 10:28 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"From the available evidence/testimony of Mr. Ball it looks like a railroading."

From the available evidence/testimony of Mr. Ball it looks like he spent all his time telling himself he was entitled to do what he did, vastly superior to everyone he came in contact with and every social system and judgment, and justified in every way.

As many have repeatedly pointed out, he did not take one disastrous step off a cliff. He plowed ahead step by step on his chosen and destructive path. All that I suspect b/c he couldn't give up his need to feel important.

BTW - something I read a while ago stuck with me. It was to the effect that 'rebels' and 'bad boys' are appealing to some b/c they reflect personal dissatisfactions. But that over the years, rebels tend not to do well. Because you can't do well fighting the entire society at every step - it is after all so much bigger. That maybe the answer is not to try to emulate them, but to address our internal conversation for reasonableness and solve our own emotional problems.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:43 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

This is the most rutted up thing I've seen in a while, I'm horrified. So did he actually die from said fire experience, that's what I want to know. I have two words for you, Mental Illness, seems pretty clear.

I feel that making a child bleed is not oaky and that yes he should have gotten in trouble and yes he should have had to take some parenting classes and been given another chance. I can't read the letter because I'm pretty sure it would upset me greatly. It seems like I'm one of the only people who is horrified about this whole thing in regards to the whole setting-oneself-on-fire thing, that's rutted up and it hurts me taht something wasn't done before now to keep it from getting to this place.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

ETA - Let me put this in terms you might understand --- Should it be legal for him to hit a small child in the face if that child was a stranger on the street? If you can't apply the same standards to the household as you might to strangers on the street - maybe they aren't very good standards.

Here, let me fix that for you.

Should it be legal for a man off the street to lock himself in the bathroom while allegedly giving that small child a bath? If you can't apply the same standards to the household as you might to strangers off the street maybe they aren't very good standards.

The simple flaw in your premise is that you think others know what is better for your family. Abrogating your responsibility by defaulting to adulthood by consensus is weak. You seek the approval of others before committing to a course of action. The reality is that there is no single path. Each life is molded by experience, good and bad. A child that only experiences good is going to remain a child well into their adult years. I look at the youth coming into adulthood now and wonder if that is not already happening.

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics - RAH

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:16 AM

There's some things you shouldn't do to ANYONE.

Arbitrary violence as a control mechanism for children is one of em.

On that point, I shall not move.

-F

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 4:11 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Should it be legal for a man off the street to lock himself in the bathroom while allegedly giving that small child a bath?"

Except one - hitting a small child in the face - is assault. The other - giving a small child a bath - isn't.

I'm surprised you can't tell the difference.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

The simple flaw in your premise is that you think others know what is better for your family. Abrogating your responsibility by defaulting to adulthood by consensus is weak. You seek the approval of others before committing to a course of action. The reality is that there is no single path. Each life is molded by experience, good and bad. A child that only experiences good is going to remain a child well into their adult years. I look at the youth coming into adulthood now and wonder if that is not already happening.

Here, let me fix that for you. ;)

The flaw in YOUR premise is that you think you know what is better for the families of others. And you think this guy knew what was best for his family. You know how I know he was wrong? Because at some point, he "knew" that burning himself up was firmly in the "what was best" column for his family. When you burn yourself up in order to guilt your small children out for what they've driven you to (because of YOUR OWN ACTIONS AND CHOICES, mind you), then you really have no fucking clue what's best for anything or anyone. I'll not shed a tear for this douchebag, but I feel terrible for the pain and guilt he's caused his family by going so far out of his way to blame them.

I don't need your approval before I choose my course of action; your disapproval actually tells me I'm on the right path! I don't need to seek anyone's "approval" for hitting a child in the face, because that's not an acceptable course of action for any adult to take. You seem very willing to give your approval to such behavior, but that still doesn't make it acceptable behavior.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

There's some things you shouldn't do to ANYONE.

Arbitrary violence as a control mechanism for children is one of em.

On that point, I shall not move.

-F

Good. There's places to compromise, and this isn't one of them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Man who refuses to financially support his children and believes that 'feminists' have invented the concept of domestic violence to rule the world kills himself publically and horrifically.

I guess he really is thinking about his kids in all this. Not.

He was 2,000 dollars behind after ten years!!!...that ain't shit. He was trying to support his children....this shit has got to end. However, with the decriminalization of weed going on..domestic violence arrests are on the rise...The co unions will guarantee those prisons will be filled. I am not just saying this because of Marilyn's troubles either...I know dozens of guys and gals locked up for arguing, pulling phones out of someone's hands, throwing an inanimate object against a wall, etc....its a fucking joke....one of the biggest tragedies in America was the feminist movement. Rights are not a gay issue, a female issue, but an individual issue...play fair.

*edit* I do not condone actual violence against one's wife or children...they should be locked up, however, sit in any court room in America and the "victim" will be there pleading with the judge for leniency...because 90% of these arrests are for non-violent actions...that would have been considered normal partnership squabbles 20 years ago ..arguing etc...but the police HAVE set the policy of automatic protective orders thus ruining lives despite what those involved wish.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

There's some things you shouldn't do to ANYONE.

Arbitrary violence as a control mechanism for children is one of em.

On that point, I shall not move.

-F

Good. There's places to compromise, and this isn't one of them.

I've never spanked my children because they are awesome kind little bastards. However, when kids were spanked we had a lot less violence in America...Fear of dad is a counterweight to disrespect....That can-not be argued...Know how many times I did not do what I wanted to do, because I knew dad would be pissed. I was spanked twice in my life....Okay, so maybe I'm not the best example to make my point..I am rather fucked up

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 10:37 AM

Oh dear, you've bred. How unfortunate.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 10:55 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Its interesting that I look at this thread and see something different than the other people reading this thread. I do agree that making a child bleed is _not okay, period. But that's not the part that shocks me because, unfortunately, lots of parents screw up, some of whom really do learn their lesson and try to correct their behavior.
I just can't get past the whole setting oneself on fire part because one's brain isn't working correctly and how it sounds like no one cares and it sounds like no one around him cared that things were going wrong in said brain. ...

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Oh dear, you've bred. How unfortunate.

Yes..actually, women line up to fuck me..for that i have two of the most hansome little men on earth..kane and kohl...and you? No one will go near you...right? I bet my life i'm right. I can see you now. Some big fat sweaty pig wasting away somewhere in the outback...go sweep your dirt road.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:14 PM

I have been trying to be kind...trying

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 5:30 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I just can't get past the whole setting oneself on fire part because one's brain isn't working correctly and how it sounds like no one cares and it sounds like no one around him cared that things were going wrong in said brain. ..."

I have personally known well one person who killed himself and one person who only failed to by sheer blind chance (rescued by someone who on a whim stopped by). I can't tell you the amount of time and care I poured into them both b/c I could see their thinking going down a dead end. I have learned it is very, very hard to put someone back on the tracks once they have derailed. In the end, no one else can change another or take responsibility for the actions of the other.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:55 PM