Personally, I think they've waited quite long enough by Niki2

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Personally, I think they've waited quite long enough

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, June 27, 2011 12:07
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Friday, June 24, 2011 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Marriage is a legal institution. Churches are granted the legal power to preside over the legal institution "And now by the power vested in me by the state..." within the religious ceremony, as are sea captains. The same legal ceremony can be held in front of a justice of the peace, magistrate, or judge.

Or marriage celebrant. You are quite correct that it is fundamentally a legal status, although it has become enmeshed with religious practices.

So really this is about religion trying to prevent a change in law.

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Friday, June 24, 2011 9:09 PM

BYTEMITE

Ah, well... There was a such thing as a civil marriage in medieval times (heck, even hand fasts), but arguably priests back then had the power to (and did) perform marriages under religious law as well. In some places it was even made explicit in the secular laws that a marriage HAD to be officiated by a priest of a recognized religion, such as England in 1753.

I'd say throughout history it's been both. I'd imagine that probably only in the very beginning of civilization, and now, have marriage ceremonies been mostly secularized. If you're asking me which came first, secular law versus religious law, probably secular law, and therefore secular marriage.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 5:48 AM

DREAMTROVE

I see I've been firsted in our gayness

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/nyregion/the-road-to-gay-marriage-in
-new-york.html

Now if only they're liberal enough to not kill us all with toxic chemicals. (Maybe some rich people have relatives who are sick, IOW, from Pennsylvania)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 1:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Well, the New York State Senate just approved the same-sex marriage bill. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-new-york-gay-marr
iage-20110625,0,650746.story

Hallelujah. There was some fear Bloomberg's money - of which he spent quite a bit to kill the law - would have swayed the vote. Thankfully, basic social fairness won out.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 3:56 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
Originally posted by dmaanlileiltt:
Well, the New York State Senate just approved the same-sex marriage bill. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-new-york-gay-marr
iage-20110625,0,650746.story

Hallelujah. There was some fear Bloomberg's money - of which he spent quite a bit to kill the law - would have swayed the vote. Thankfully, basic social fairness won out.

Kiki,

Source?

Bloomberg has been such an outspoken proponent of gay marriage, it would seem odd if he funded a PAC to kill the bill, which he himself called "a historic triumph for equality and freedom."

Also, from May 27 this year: Mr. Bloomberg has said recently he will be looking to lend financial support to candidates who support gay marriage.

As much of a partisan issue it is nationally, it's not, locally. There was bipartisan support and bipartisan resistance. In '09, 1/2 of democrats voted against it, in IIRC, a dem controlled state senate; now a gop dom state senate has passed it. I'm sure there were more dems than reps on the yays, but still, not a party line split.

People are more complex than they appear. Locally, a party often has very little in common with the national. The NY GOP has always had more respect from me than the national. In fact, myself and many of my local dems feel about as positive about the NY GOP as we do about the NY Dems. It's the national GOP we don't want to be a part of. And when was the last time the GOP nominated someone from NY for president? (Dewey)

Oh and his defeat was credited to completely empty lines like "Our future lies ahead of us" Hope and Change. His advisors told him to promise nothing and anger no one, Truman was tremendously unpopular, and Strom Thurmond was splitting the dixiecrat vote, it was impossible to lose. Well, it turned out an Obama-style campaign was a loser in a sure win situation. Makes me wonder what kind of campaign McCain ran ;)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 9:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow, Riona, that was pretty firey for one remark, that I abhorred the idea that homosexuals "chose" to be outside society, so not being able to marry shouldn't bother them. Of course everyone has their own opinion, I never said otherwise. I also never expected my reaction to change anything; it was merely an opinion. I'm not sure where "repeatedly shocked" comes into it; unless I made a similar remark elsewhere, this is the only remark I've found abhorrent--which is different from being "shocked", which I'm not. Bit difference between being shocked by something and DISLIKING it. I've heard this from others before.

My problem is with the concept of homosexuals CHOOSING to be "outside society". I'm sure there are some who so choose, but VERY few...the vast majority want INCLUSION in society, which is what the same-sex marriage thing is all about. That's why I find it "abhorrent"; it's stated as a fact. You said "to not do what society generally does", but what they want is the ability TO DO what society generally does: get married. What you expressed comes out, to me, "If you want to be different, you shouldn't have the same rights as those who do what society generally does", which I feel is wrong.

These people are PEOPLE, citizens like everyone else...supposedly. If they love someone and want to spend their lives together as married, they should have the same right to do so as anyone else, in my opinion. It's not a diss on you that you feel differently, it's a disagreement. What I found abhorrent was stating that if they didn't behave like society generally does, it shouldn't bother them that they don't have the same rights as society in general. That bothers me, as this is all about RIGHTS.

I'm not sure what you meantabout "I see a difference between feelings/physicality and actions. I think I'm uncommon in that way", and would really like to understand what you were saying.

Your response comes across TO ME as rather angry, when I didn't call you any names or say anything negative except that I abhor the idea, first that homosexuals CHOOSE to be different, and that by being different, they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. I DO find those two concepts abhorrent, not merely disagree with them, but that has nothing to do with you personally. It has to do with those two things being exactly why I am in FAVOR of same-sex marriage; I recognize most homosexuals don't "choose" to be born that way, and I think everyone deserves the same rights.

Mostly, I'm proud of New York, hope it isn't turned around by referendum as it was here in CA, and I'm tickled for all those people celebrating being given the same rights as everyone else.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 10:19 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Source?

Bloomberg has been such an outspoken proponent of gay marriage..."

You're right. I read something in the NYTimes but didn't link it b/c the Times now gives away only 20 (I think) internet stories for free each month. I obviously mis-remembered who it was. I'm so good with names (not).

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Niki, I wasn't trying to be fiery or mean. I've seen you be surprised at my opinions on this more than once, so I think that's why I said that you ought not assume that we'll agree on everything just because we agree on some things. I wasn't trying to be snotty, forgive me if I came across as that. You may have forgotten how you reacted to my opinion in the other thread so I shouldn't fault you for being surprised twice.

As for explaining physicality vs. action, I could tell you about my feelings on the matter but I don't know that this is an apropriate place for it since this thread is about gay marriage and not physicality. Sometimes people don't like talking about physicality, whenever I try to then everyone gets grossed out.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, June 27, 2011 3:00 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Source?

Bloomberg has been such an outspoken proponent of gay marriage..."

You're right. I read something in the NYTimes but didn't link it b/c the Times now gives away only 20 (I think) internet stories for free each month. I obviously mis-remembered who it was. I'm so good with names (not).

Wow. I'm impressed. A person on RWED actually admitted to being wrong. I think this might be the only time this has happened in the last five years. You win this gold star ;)

Seriously, I was impressed and a little worried for the rest of us. I can't recall a time someone here admitted an error. I was actually expecting to not get a response to that.

And, not to eat shoot and leave, but I'm going to be out of town for the next week, catch you on the flip side, have a happy gay week.

Oh, btw, I support the gay marriage bill as well. It's about time. My biggest hope is that this is a sign of the character of our new govt.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 12:03 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Story,

Quote:
Anything you have to say on any topic is worth scorn, because you are a worthless, loathsome individual.

I would have put it

Quote:
Anything you have to say on any topic is worth [nothing but] scorn, because you [have proven over and over by your own words that you] are a worthless, loathsome individual.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 12:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Dmann, I missed this before:

Quote:
Marriage was once a union based solely on finnancial security or class, today it is (mostly) optional to those who really want it and are (hopefully) in love. Likewise common terms today for "homosexuality" had very different meanings not too long ago: "queer" (strange), "gay" (happy), "faggot" (a collection of sticks) and "lesbian" (someone from the Greek isle of Lesbos).

"Love is love is a wonderful thing"; it is inherently wrong to deny thousands of people fulfillment. (And you wonder "Why would you want to get married? You already everything you want." But they'd like, nay they deserve, the choice; and choice leads to that great all y'all patriots love: freedom.)

Excellently said. I would add that in older times, marriage was also based on getting a legal heir, yes? Of course, that's financial too in a way.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 12:07 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Riona, I NEVER assume anyone will agree with me all the time, please know that. Your remarks did come across (to me) as pretty snarky, which is the only reason I mentioned it. No forgiveness necessary, we cleared it up. Just FYI, it's impossible for you to gross me out, whatever you write, and I'm still curious, if you feel like e-mailing or pm-ing your explanation. No biggie.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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