The last statement of Tom Ball (Very good child support information) by Hardware

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

That's random, but i did manage to get myself kicked out of the adult behavioral department at echn...while visiting a friend..she grabbed me,pulled me into this nook area, and started kissing me like, well..a lunatic. Her nurse came around the corner and threw me out. What is odd that you mentioned hospitals..just two days before that marilyn was at rockville memorial in the er..they stuck her in this little room to sober up and shit...well, it was all night and i kept dozing off and my head would be on her lap..this orderly kept waking us up and telling us we couldn't sleep like that..so, after getting woke for the third time..marilyn went off with the f-bombs and the "why is this fucking barney retard wearing all purple waking me up every twenty minutes"...i got asked to leave.

She sounds like a gem. You two are obviously made for one another. Hope the children are in care.

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Friday, June 24, 2011 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, he was offered the option of counseling, which he declined, in his infinite wisdom. Among all the self-justification in the letter I catch a whiff of PTSD or paranoia. It's really hard to help people like that.

It is - but it's also overlooked how often such counselling has ulterior or other motives, not to mention the violation of trust and privacy when in-confidence things start coming out of the mouth of someone elses attorney in court - divorce cases are notorious for this sort of thing, mind you, let's not pretend all those pittance-paid folk are trustworthy, so that *is* a factor here.

Also, in a general sense, it's hard as hell for a counsellor or psych-doc to help someone who doesn't dare tell them anything important cause of the possibility of it being handed over to the law - I don't necessarily mean a Tarasoff warning, but if you're growin a couple plants in your basement to ease the PTSD symptoms and your shrink rats you out...

Or of course, the long, long list of kids sold out to hellcamps by school "counsellors", and then further victimized by hellcamp staff shrinks.

Dealing with Iatrogenic pyscho issues is damn, damn tricky, and requires first obtaining, then building, a level of personal trust beyond and outside of official or professional credential, and in fact those credentials are often a detriment because if one feels they have been victimized by the State, then they are not, under any circumstances whatsoever, going to trust a representative thereof with their innermost personhood.

As I said, a cascade failure - right ?
And I pointed out that there likely WAS a point where this might have been averted, yes ?

You know what that point was - a breach of personal trust or confidentiality BY an agent of the State, whether intentional or not, that *perceived* breach (and it happens a lot, intentionally or otherwise) was a small but critical part of what helped send him down that dark road.

Ain't makin excuses for the guy, but other humans fuck it up too, and fumbling the ball when dealing with someone who's already cast adrift and potentially unstable is something we can't afford - the arrogance, incompetence, and corruption of too damn many pysch personnel is one thing which causes soooo much damage, but nobody wants to address.

Sure, the guy in question took it where he did, and bears responsibility for his own actions - but in my sole opinion, simply from examining the situation, both from coverage here and elsewhere, and from his own words...

Somewhere in there, he went lookin for help, and metaphorically got his yarbles snapped in a mousetrap instead.

And then some other folk exploited that, wound up him to snap, on purpose, for their own reasons, as I also mentioned.

Those folk bear responsibility TOO, is all I am sayin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, June 24, 2011 6:45 PM

Courts, welfare organisations, health services and complaints departments of any organisations are choked with a high volume of work eminating from people with high conflict personalities aka personality disorders. They are the kind of people who will take their former spouse back over and over again through court, and then cry foul of court processes. They are incredibly destructive people who can make the lives of those around them, including their nearest and dearest (and especially former nearest and dearest) hell. They have a catastrophic reaction to rejection, real or perceived, so family break up is really difficult for these people. They often don't access mental health services because of their lack of insight into their own personalities, usually blaming others for the chaos they themselves cause. That includes blaming services, such as courts and welfare organisations, and even people who try to assist them. They often self harm or suicide.

If I haven't spoken with much compassion about this man, its because I am not convinced that he is the victim of any system, but I do have empathy for him as I strongly suspect that he falls into the above category and life (and death) is pretty crappy for these people. Mind you, they manage to screw up so many others lives along the way as well, that it is often hard to feel a lot of empathy, but I recognise that he was in pain.

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Friday, June 24, 2011 7:55 PM

Yep, very broken dude - and Magons... you've not seen nothin yet.
I dunno much about Australian versions of such things, but just as an off the cuff guess...

Cut the funding by about 80%, and the quality of the personnel by half, and eliminate background checks, drug testing, and most any useful kind of certification except for a College Degree, which is never validated or examined.
Plus throw in some religious and various crusder wackos on purpose, and insulate them from being fired via office politics and whatever the agenda of the day is.

And that's the American version, on a GOOD day.

For all the money we pour down a rathole for war-war-war, and all the dosh we shovel like coal into a hole for our so-called "intelligence" agencies, which I feel are the gravest terrorist threat on the planet, and NOT whatever our protectors...
You'd THINK we could spare some here, where every penny spent saves thousands in future legal and criminal costs.

But hey, what do I know, I only been doin this for 25+ YEARS.... *hiss*

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, June 24, 2011 9:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
it's also overlooked how often such counselling has ulterior or other motives, not to mention the violation of trust and privacy when in-confidence things start coming out of the mouth of someone elses attorney in court - divorce cases are notorious for this sort of thing, mind you, let's not pretend all those pittance-paid folk are trustworthy, so that *is* a factor here.

Oh bloody hell, I might as well own up to that one...
See, my sisters ex-husband, that's exactly what hung him out to dry in court during the divorce, the counsellor he agreed to see as a sham in order to "save the marriage" (i.e. buy time for his sleazy lawyer to hide his assets) sold him out to my sisters lawyer, lock, stock and barrel, getting him hammered under for adultery, drug use, malicious cruelty and a whole bunch of stuff which when it came to light threw the whole matter very much in my sisters favor.

And I bought that bastard CHEAP, don't ya know...
Yeah, sure, Evil-vs-Evil, you might say, and while not especially fond of my sister, his ass had it coming, and while my sister is misguided and foolish, and ignorant toward my nieces, he was downright malicious.
Sometimes you got no good choices.

Anyhow, if you think that pittance-paid counsellor or pysch-doc is gonna maintain confidentiality in the face of a fat wad of cash, you must be dreamin - that could happen to YOU, mind, and it DOES happen often enough to cause folk to be reluctant to trust them.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 5:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, hubby had a couple of go-rounds with a psych who tried to convince him there was something wrong with HIM, not his abusive dad. Then hubby's mom eventually had what was then termed a "nervous breakdown" and got sent to state hospital, where the psych said (very insightfully) "There's nothing wrong with her, just her husband". I myself saw a psych who was twitchier than I was, but our daughter saw a psych who helped us (and the neuro) piece together the picture that she was hallucinating as a result of meds (nice hallucinations prolly because she tried to hide the fact).

So the record has been pretty 50/50; some psychs/ counselors aren't worth a dirty piece of TP and others are worth their weight in gold. But I agree with Magons, who speaks with the voice of experience... peeps with personality disorders are very hard to treat even by true experts. Because they don't want to change.

As they say: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but it has to want to change.

Funny story about the counselor, Frem. Coulda used YOU during my MIL's divorce!

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 1:06 PM

Heh, yeah probably - only way to play a crooked game wisely is to cheat, as I am fond of saying.
And it really *IS* hit-or-miss with psych personnel, innit ?
Which should not be, there's no damn excuse for that.

Mind you, I've just spent a good chunk of the last couple days helping deal with the fallout and followup of a serious mess, a false accusation via Facilitated Communication which all but destroyed a family, which to their credit then assisted a local paper in an in-depth examination, investigation and report of how that can happen to people - which despite the papers hard-right, cops-are-always-right leanings, also exposes the horrific misconduct and abuse of the system by both the police and prosecutors, the latter of which is an unrepentant scumbag who got away with this and many other bullshit prosecutions, and is now in private practice using his remaining internal contacts to swing cases, yadda yadda, same old story.

There's also a certain bastard from Brighton who was all but getting a free pass to victimize Haitian kids just cause he was involved in running something like a group home/orphanage down there, and that case is partly related to those religious pervo-kidnappers (eight of whom got off scot-free despite solid evidence of nefarious intent) who tried to more or less kidnap 33 kids and... who knows, since none of their stories match, and inconsistent is a generous term for their statements.
What pisses me off the worst is how many folk looked the other way for this sumbitch when they KNEW, and the cause of some of this is that blind-idiot-nationalism, the thought that those kids would be better off living on the streets here than in the care of their own families in Haiti, which is bunk - or worse, the fuckin attitude that the food and shelter was somehow "worth" letting this prick abuse them, that's asinine, and all that is BEFORE the goddamn religious aspects of it come in, stupid hateful motherfuckers, you ask me.

So my brains are about leakin out my ears at the moment, but bear with me - gonna hammer a couple things out while I've still got it all in focus and whatnot.

Firstoff, while I realize that as-practiced, "Facilitated Communication" is prettymuch bunk, I ain't 100% convinced that the concept is useless, as the problems with FC come from the influence of another human being, and that involvement can potentially be eliminated or worked around via technology.

See, there was this kid who showed up at our wargaming club back in my teens, in a powered wheelchair, never did find out exactly what his issues were, but probably some autism spectrum in there somewhere - of course the reception he initially got wasn't real nice, kids can be damn cruel, especially to the disabled, but then we try hard enough to condition them to be, don't we now ?
Anyhow, I wasn't having that, and took *issue* with it - wasn't no one gonna buck that, not after I'd roughed up and pitched out head-first a couple jocks who thought they could harrass us, and seemed quite willing to perform an encore. (Oh those were the days, before age and injury caught up with my ass, lol..)

Well, despite inability to communicate for the most part, the kid seemed interested, and on a whim I set up some forces for him and explained the gist of the ruleset (WH40K, tabletop miniatures)- he COULD, we discovered, point with a longish wooden ruler we kept for measuring ranges, although not grip it well till we taped it to his sleeve, and honestly no matter what else mighta been fried between his ears, he had a fine tactical sense.
Next week we got a bit of a shock, since he brought a talkie-board with him, a widget that had voice macros or could render custom sentences if you were willing to wait the ten or so minutes (or more) it'd take him to punch them in - apparently the gadget was horribly expensive and he had to share it with others, having it only one week out of a month or somesuch.
Watching him use it, and the ruler, rather inspired a crackbrained notion, and so we took up a quick collection among us, and with a oujia board, an erector set, some tools and a few large rubber bands from the craft shop we built a kind of sling-n-point thing he could lay his arm in and tap yes/no or letters, which worked surprisingly well - his difficulties were probably due to large muscle/small muscle difficulties and the fatigue caused by trying to maintain fine control over time, although of course we didn't know none of that at the time.

I am not sure whether that was the original or initial principle behind "Facilitated Communication", but as a base concept it seems to have merit, it just needs to be technological assistance rather than human-involved, and discarding the whole thing en-masse might be wasteful.

The other thing I was pondering was what creates those people Magons describes above, how they come to be, and I put a lot of thought into this while doing rounds last night, which imma try to refine to a coherent explanation.
People ain't born like that - they might have some level of predisposition, maybe, still, genetics may load the gun but it's environment what pulls the trigger.
What causes that kinda problem is breach of trust, betrayal, usually very early in life and directed at parents, caretakers, teachers... and eventually "the system" itself.

Example (Kindergarten): John sees Adam committing vandalism with the scissors, trusting in what he has been told, he tells the teacher - and winds up with *his* hand slapped, labelled a tattletale for DOING WHAT THEY TOLD HIM TO DO.
The next day, when Adam does it again, instead of going to the teacher John confronts Adam, a fight ensues, and because John very obviously "started it", he gets in even more trouble - and when he tries to explain why he's brushed off as making excuses or even winds up accused of the vandalism as well.

Comes a realization: THEY LIED TO ME!
Comes another: I CAN'T TRUST THEM!
And so a delination forms in the childs mind, you're either with him, or your "One of THEM".

It can happen before even that, obviously, parents can screw it up just as badly, playing favorites, being hypocrites, all of that, but without a real awareness of just how awful the CONSEQUENCES of that can be, years and years down the road - cause this generally doesn't happen all at once, but in an on-going cycle where the childs retaliation and bitterness results in acting out, followed by punishment, which only serves to further the childs perception that he has somehow been cursed, there's something wrong with him, and he's always going to catch the worst of anything...
That this quickly becomes self-fulfilling prophecy aided and abetted by their own behavior isn't likely to occur to them cause they lack the resources to properly internalize this without external help, and without a trusted source of that, unlikely at the best of times, welll....
Not that we're innocent either, as most adults focus on stopping the WHAT, without ever even bothering to find out WHY, no matter how important that can be in the long run - I've found it a DAMN smart policy to hear a kid out when they've done something, to find out what their reasons and rationale are before jumping down their throat, but most folk seem to lack the patience or personal regard for the young to do so.

And I didn't come up with that one on my own - despite her flaws, my mother *would* hear me out, and since for reasons I ain't sure I can articulate I flat would NOT lie to her, in many cases she would wind up supporting, rather than punishing, my actions... especially when a teacher or administrator DID lie to her and got caught out at it, at least some part of why I didn't lie to my mother was watching others try and fail, eventually resulting in NOT being heard out whatever - if administrator Lee told her the sky was blue, she'd get a second opinion, heh.(1)

Anyhows, with that whole perception of being cursed, put-upon, left hanging out to dry, always catching the worst, always being called a liar, etc etc...
Comes the natural inclination to seek someone to BLAME.
And so... "Them", "The System" - which *AT FIRST* is often surprisingly justified, somewhere down the line, usually just before or during puberty, their subconscious begins to use this as a method of denial as well - again, self fulfilling prophecy, and eventually a path of least resistannce into a downward spiral of madness.
Of course, in our fucked up, sociopathic society that's no barrier to success actually, often far from it, cause if you want a CLASSIC example of how that spirals all the way down to the end (provided it doesn't end in traumatic fashion sooner) I got just the one for you.
Howard Hughes, among his other issues (cause mental illness is a guest that tends to bring friends) had some degree of this - in particular was his rage at the medical profession for very similar reasons to mine, as he was in constant pain from his many injuries and yet brushed off as malingering by the medical establishment.(2)

As Vachss put it so well, when a child cries "I Hurt!" - it's a plead for aid, but left unheeded, it becomes a battlecry, a warning, a prophecy.

Also, of personal interest between us, Siggy - if you think nuke plants are unsafe, consider our Bioweapons labs, cause it'd take even less of a catastrophic event to crack even BSL3/4 procedures when they're followed as badly as our military does, case in point Philip Zack walking off with live Anthrax right outta Ft Detrick.
We got at least eight of the damn places that I know of, and apparently there's rumors about Sierra up in NoCal as well - makes me wonder if there isn't a bottle of Captain Trips out there somewhere just waiting for the inevitable, in the hands of these dumbasses.

-Frem
(1)- And yet 99% of all that, with Admin Lee was over the simple goddamn fact that if you lay unwanted hands on me, imma try damn hard to beat you within an inch of your life, just how hard is that a concept for people to understand, I ask you ?

(2)- Speakin of, autoimmune reactions, especially near-fatal ones like mine, tend to leave *permanent* pain waves in their wake, something I am now discovering to my eternal bitterness, since the only thing I have to stave em off is ibuprofen 200's and cheap rum - pain kills, never you doubt it.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh bloody hell, I might as well own up to that one...
See, my sisters ex-husband, that's exactly what hung him out to dry in court during the divorce, the counsellor he agreed to see as a sham in order to "save the marriage" (i.e. buy time for his sleazy lawyer to hide his assets) sold him out to my sisters lawyer, lock, stock and barrel, getting him hammered under for adultery, drug use, malicious cruelty and a whole bunch of stuff which when it came to light threw the whole matter very much in my sisters favor.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Sometimes I read things which surprise me about the US divorce system, as I do actually know a little, having compared data from the US with what goes on here, and I wonder whether there are lots of misconceptions that take place. I do know it varies state to state, unlike here we're we pretty much have a federal system. But my understanding was that that 'fault' was no longer used as a factor to determine things like asset division and children's matters. So it shouldn't matter who left, who committed adultery, who did what to who. That is the system here.

Also, what is said to psych's should be confidential unless they're having to disclose something because of concern for someone's safety. It certainly should never end up in an affidavit. And a judge should be querying it, if it does.

I'm sorry to appear to be doubting, Frem, it just made me wonder that's all. A bit the same as fixed child support amounts, which was not a reality either.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 2:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, hubby had a couple of go-rounds with a psych who tried to convince him there was something wrong with HIM, not his abusive dad. Then hubby's mom eventually had what was then termed a "nervous breakdown" and got sent to state hospital, where the psych said (very insightfully) "There's nothing wrong with her, just her husband". I myself saw a psych who was twitchier than I was, but our daughter saw a psych who helped us (and the neuro) piece together the picture that she was hallucinating as a result of meds (nice hallucinations prolly because she tried to hide the fact).

So the record has been pretty 50/50; some psychs/ counselors aren't worth a dirty piece of TP and others are worth their weight in gold. But I agree with Magons, who speaks with the voice of experience... peeps with personality disorders are very hard to treat even by true experts. Because they don't want to change.

As they say: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but it has to want to change.

LOL.

My experience with counsellors and psychs as well. I'm very, very careful who I refer people to, because of the shoddy, careless work that has been done with people. My biggest gripe? is with child counsellors who don't insist on seeing both parents as well.

And your point about PD's not being able to access services because they don't see a problem with themselves is spot on. So the best mental health services in the world are going to struggle with assisting these people. It's usually only when they are ordered to attend, or a relative drags them through the door, that they can start to begin some work, and even then, it is usually very long term therapy. Never cheap and usually not the kind of therapy that any service will cough up for free.

That being said, out mental health system is not great. Our public system casualty (ER) departments are overloaded with dealing with people with mental health issues, which strictly speaking they are not set up for, just because there is no where else to go.

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 2:10 PM

Sorry, Frem, just trawling through your long posts and replying as I get through them.

Quote:
The other thing I was pondering was what creates those people Magons describes above, how they come to be, and I put a lot of thought into this while doing rounds last night, which imma try to refine to a coherent explanation.
People ain't born like that - they might have some level of predisposition, maybe, still, genetics may load the gun but it's environment what pulls the trigger.
What causes that kinda problem is breach of trust, betrayal, usually very early in life and directed at parents, caretakers, teachers... and eventually "the system" itself

There has been lots of theories as to what causes PD's, and in the area I work in, which tends to focus on attachment focused theories, they tend to ascribe, surprise, surprise - attachment issues, but with something else going on as well. In particular, having a what is termed a disorganised attachment. What you say, environment and genetics, would appear to be what most theorists say as well. With Borderline Personality Disorder, having a parent who suffers from schizoprenia would appear to be a common factor. So whether that means it was genetic, or the result of being parented by someone with that illness, I couldn't tell you.

A lot of data appears to indicate that BPD presentation is appearing in increasing number of the population, so maybe its societal as well

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Saturday, June 25, 2011 10:56 PM

Prolly some combination of both, yeah.

And of course, attachment - in fact, one again, Perry is at the cutting edge of that whole concept.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/professional/bruceperry/bonding.htm

That's WELL worth a read, on this topic particularly - very clear and concise.

Quote:
Very little is known about the ability of replacement experiences later in life to "replace" or repair the undeveloped or poorly organized bonding and attachment capabilities. Clinical experiences and a number of studies suggest that improvement can take place, but it is a long, difficult, and frustrating process for families and children. It may take many years of hard work to help repair the damage from only a few months of neglect in infancy.

So true - but one facet we've found useful is that if human attachment is impaired, attachment to non-humans may not be, and an animal companion may well allow "bleedover" onto humans and well and help re-establish that attachment.
Admittedly, I stole the idea from one of my teachers who got a class pet for explicitly that reason, in hopes of my strong bond with animals bleeding over onto the other humans, which worked better than she expected it to.

Additionally, a note about bribery - while there ain't so many people who won't re-evaluate their moral stance when handed a manila envelope full of small, used, non-sequential bills, that's actually not the best tactic when dealing with this sort of thing - cash these days in such quantity tends to draw notice and suspicion.
Far better to say, make a house payment go away for a while, or make a credit card balance go away, via an account titled something wholly meaningless like "Parker Memorial Fund" or "Shawsville Heritage Foundation", which is owned by an offshore LLC and thus virtually untraceable.
The mistake most folk make, which always gets em caught, is making contact with the money - if you, personally, never lay your hands on it, then it becomes impossible to trace back to you, see ?
So you take the blackmail/bribes/etc comin in, route it through the offshore LLC, and into bribes going out, and never directly have contact or association with it personally, even if folks KNOW you did it, they'd play such merry hell proving it that there ain't no point to tryin.
(Oh, and make SURE to buy off the IRS - all else fails you can flag it as gambling winnings)

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 7:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Sometimes I read things which surprise me about the US divorce system, as I do actually know a little, having compared data from the US with what goes on here, and I wonder whether there are lots of misconceptions that take place. I do know it varies state to state, unlike here we're we pretty much have a federal system. But my understanding was that that 'fault' was no longer used as a factor to determine things like asset division and children's matters. So it shouldn't matter who left, who committed adultery, who did what to who. That is the system here.

Also, what is said to psych's should be confidential unless they're having to disclose something because of concern for someone's safety. It certainly should never end up in an affidavit. And a judge should be querying it, if it does.

I'm sorry to appear to be doubting, Frem, it just made me wonder that's all. A bit the same as fixed child support amounts, which was not a reality either.

Oh damn, I almost missed this - it's been a long week.

Thing is, Ball was being generous when he said "two sets of books", cause it's more like three.

There's how they tell you it works (ideal), how it's supposed to work (practice) and then there's how it really works (reality) - and those are very, very different things.

No matter how it's SUPPOSED to go, fault is still addressed whether it's supposed to be or not, especially when there is money involved, and as a general rule (and I hate, hate, hate having to admit this, but it's true) generally the female of the pair winds up able to use not only her own assets, but often enough the males assets as financial ammo in court, and like american elections, right or wrong doesn't matter worth a shit, it's who spends the most money, almost exclusively.

I really don't like admitting that, but it is indeed usually how it goes - unless by some stroke of good fortune you get a judge that actually gives a shit about the case beyond clearing it from his/her docket.

And of course, also as a rule, nobody gives a damn about the kids save as pawns or chattel, something you mentioned having all too much experience with yourself...

HOWEVER, one principle of law which took many a year for folks like me to shove in sideways is the concept of Guardian Ad Litem a provision on the books but UNIVERSALLY *ignored* until just this past decade - you see, each parent has a lawyer, but they represent the PARENTS interests exclusively and since children have less legal rights and status than pets, the court itself couldn't care less.

Enter the Guardian Ad Litem - often but not necessarily a lawyer, soley appointed to see to the CHILDS best interests, paid diddly-shit, if anything, often threatened legally and otherwise, and mostly ignored by both lawyers and the court besides, but merely having one at all is a huge step forward.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_guardian#Guardian_ad_litem
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28kalyql45ldc0mm55h52gu055%29%29/mi
leg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-712A-17d
Of course the lawyers kinda want that to be a lawyer-only thing, mostly as protection of their monopoly, but since it pays jack shit they haven't pushed too hard and it's still mostly filled by CASA personnel.
http://www.rollanet.org/~childlaw/galstd/mi-intro.htm
Very grey area still, no official duties, no official status, if you're not an actual lawyer folk refuse (although this is illegal if you are serving as a GAL) to cooperate with you, yadda yadda.

While I still retain all the paperwork and qualifications, the local court doesn't call me unless the situation is completely fucked cause I am completely *merciless* in pursuit of my "clients" interests, instead of playing along and pretending to represent them while simply bowing to the courts will - but when things get nasty and complicated, causing a judge to worry about personal liability... that's when they pass the buck, up to and including replacing the current Guardian Ad Litem.
Downside of that is *NOBODY* likes you, I've had stuff thrown at me, had folks try to assault me outside the courtroom, at least one threatened to put a hit on me, to which I flat told him he'd better hire Blackwater.

Anyhows, thing is, here in america the court proceeding is mostly a dog-n-pony show for the masses, a simple pretense of "justice" so they can hold up the ideal, cause 99.995% of that shit is decided in backroom deals before the parties even enter the courtroom - this is also part and parcel of why they don't call me till a case has gone to hell in a handbasket, cause I won't necessarily go along with the plan - some other CoTL members are also CASA, and a lot more... shall we say, pliable, when it comes to selling out their "client" for the convenience of the court.
One kid called me Terminator over that, and it stuck, which is kinda weird cause *HIS* folks were fairly amicable about it and not only have joint custody, but have occasionally rooked me into hauling him to soccer practice when their schedules don't allow for it - not everyone's an ass about divorce, though a lot of folk are.

But the point is, no matter what it says on paper, the realities of the situation are often quite different, and if there is a venue on the planet more venal, more corrupt and unscrupulous than an american courtroom, I've not seen it, and I've seen a lot of nasty things.

Case in point, before I forget: Those child support amounts and whether they are fixed or malleable - well, sure, IN THEORY they're malleable, should one become unemployed or whatnot, but it ain't that simple, first you have to file protest, then fight in court for the reduction, tooth and claw all the way up against the other parties lawyer, and that don't come cheap you see ?
So often as not the legal fee cost of obtaining the reduction is far above and beyond any savings the reduction would offer - that may not be the case everywhere, but in the states I have been it most certainly has.

Courts here, EVERYTHING is for sale, with the right amount of leverage or money.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 8:27 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I know its really hard to convince or make someone get help. But we're talking about setting oneself on fire here, we're not talking about shooting oneself or overdosing, we're talking about FIRE and that is what shocks my sensabilities the most. I should think that I'd get to a callous place where I'm not shocked anymore, but so far it hasn't happened.

About personality disorders: Through what me and my colleagues have determined most people with borderline PD had early trauma and/or attachment issues, none of our PACS clients with it were just born that way period. But with other personality disorders I do think that some people are indeed born with it, a fundamental flaw. Of course Frem's theory holds weight in many cases too. But there are people, particularly with antisocial pd who were just born as badseeds and we need to try and minimize how much that is actually expressed in their interactions with others. I know schizotypal is generally something you're born with, otherwise it gets labeled as other things.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, June 26, 2011 10:36 PM

Frem, when I read your posts, it reminds me how differently people view the world, because we all look through our different prisms that are carved out by our individual experiences. Your world view and mine probably couldn't be more different.

I have seen through your various posts a deep and inherent distrust of legal institutions, and you have explained what has caused you to view them like this. I don't share those views, although I do think there are flaws and corruptions, I also think that there are a lot of good people who work in those systems who are trying to do the best they can. I think the whole court system here is beauracratic and a bit of a sausage factory, not very pleasant for people to use.

Here's the thing though. People don't have to use it. Courts, lawyers, and other agencies are there to be used when people can't sort their own stuff out, sometimes because they are too bloody minded to do so and are hell bent on revenge, and sometimes because they are dealing with a former partner who is mad/bad and or dangerous from whom they need some legal assistance to deal with if not downright protection.

People bitch and moan about 'the system' regardless of what 'the system' is or how it works or how hard it tries to do the right thing - cause basically I think 'the system' over here tries to do the right thing by kids. Trouble is no-one is ever satisfied because someone else has made a decision about matters that should generally be private ie how to parent your kids and what to do with your money. But they made that decision because two people could not do so (or did not believe they could do so) without all that legal regalia. That is why I prefer to take on board how 'the system' works via some hard evidence other than what the brother in law said happened to him. Because sure as hell he wasn't happy about what a judge ordered, but neither was his ex. Research shows that people are unhappy with court procedures sorting this stuff out, even if they got what they thought was fair.

To your point that fault is still used, even when it shouldn't be, is because lawyers continue to instructed by their clients to bring all that shit up, even when it cannot possibly count for diddly squat in a judgement, and any matter could be challenged in appeal if it did. Judges have to make decisions based in law, and they have to demostrate how they make decisions. But I do concede that people can be coerced by not wanting their dirty linen aired and that is a tactic used in court.

Re women getting more of the asset pool than men, decisions here re the asset pool go in favour of the parent who is the primary carer, because being a primary carer dramatically impacts upon your financial position and capacity to work. Despite the rage that men's groups have often voiced about the unfairness of asset division, research has shown that primary carers do it harder for longer than the non resident parent, but both will be significantly worse off initially after the separation. Traditionally more women have been primary carers, but that pattern is changing, and with it you find more dads taking on that role, and the asset pool is adjusted in their favour.

Evidence is more useful in these matters than word of mouth in my experience.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 5:38 AM

BYTEMITE

Wait, the whole not lifting a finger thing. I'm not going to read the statement because it's fifteen pages and I've got some work. But does he mean that he wasn't lifting a finger to help the marriage, or does he mean that the marriage soured because he hit his kid, and his wife divorced him even after he made an effort to not hit anymore?

Not to say that I don't disagree with the wife for getting out, but if he thought he was trying to do better about the hitting, then his side does start to make more sense, even if he's still not entirely justified.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 5:51 AM

BYTEMITE

>_>

I'm going to steal that "Barney reject in purple" line though. That's pretty excellent.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:09 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hardware:

Quote:
A child that only experiences good is going to remain a child well into their adult years.

I call that an oversimplification which ignores the fact that virtually all children experience "bad"...the question is what kind and what degree of bad. Also, I believe it takes a certain amount of thought and maybe even learning to discern how to use non-violent methods to teach a child, rather than just hauling off and hitting him. You might be quite right in

Quote:
I look at the youth coming into adulthood now and wonder if that is not already happening.

But look beyond that. Might those who tried to avoid violence with their children not be very good at it, or have done it wrong (like "reasoning" with a child)? It's a lot more complex to learn how to teach children without violence, and not everyone "gets it"..

As Frem says,

Quote:
Arbitrary violence as a control mechanism for children is one of em.

On that point, I shall not move.

I agree, and there again we have "arbitrary" violence. For me, arbitrary ANYTHING has all too much danger of going wrong. Arbitrary reasoning with a child doesn't work, arbitrarily laying down the wrong rules or too many rules or any number of things doesn't work, either. It really DOES take a village, optimally, to raise a child, so the child is exposed to many adults' differing points of view. Optimally, and impossible in our society, obviously.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:33 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree, Mike:

Quote:
at some point, he "knew" that burning himself up was firmly in the "what was best" column for his family. When you burn yourself up in order to guilt your small children out for what they've driven you to (because of YOUR OWN ACTIONS AND CHOICES, mind you), then you really have no fucking clue what's best for anything or anyone. I'll not shed a tear for this douchebag, but I feel terrible for the pain and guilt he's caused his family by going so far out of his way to blame them.

On the other hand, I'm quite willing to shed a tear for him as well, because like Byte and Riona I see "mentally ill" written all over this, and any suffering deserves sympathy, for me.

I also agree that

Quote:
Arbitrary violence as a control mechanism for children is one of em

isn't a place to compromise.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
with the decriminalization of weed going on..domestic violence arrests are on the rise

The two are obviously connected, and the ONLY reason violent arrests are on the rise, of course. Hysterical.

Quote:
90% of these arrests are for non-violent actions

I'd love to see some statistics on that. There is a LOT wrong with our judicial system, from defendants getting off on technicalities to divorce situations where children are used as pawns or games are played to get a chosen result. But I doubt that statistic, nonetheless.

Quote:
when kids were spanked we had a lot less violence in America...Fear of dad is a counterweight to disrespect....That can-not be argued

Oh, it can be argued easily. The mere connection that kids not being spanked (and many still are) is responsible for violence in America is laughable, and nothing else.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Magons:

Quote:
Oh dear, you've bred. How unfortunate.

You get today's prize for the first guffaw of the day (resulting in a spurt of ice tea, luckily not hitting the keyboard!). However, you responded to his filth...you might want to look to that!

Keep reminding yourself, his nastiness is only worth

Any attempt at actual communication is a waste of time and usually only encourages him. Took ME long enough to realize that, maybe by reminding I can spare you

Or not, heaven knows Mike enjoys himself getting down to almost his level... for whatever reason I'll never know

On a more serious note,

Quote:
decisions here re the asset pool go in favour of the parent who is the primary carer

I wish that were moreso here. Most of the time, as far as I know, it's a matter of how much money the carer should get in "child support"...which of course the other party can dodge, given they are usually the initial bread winner. I could well be wrong, but from what I've seen, asset division is still pretty much 50/50, it's future earnings which are divided up. I have a certain amount of sympathy for those who are left with monetary child support which makes life difficult for them, but the fact that they can skip out on their responsibilities, and so many do, makes me angry.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Riona:

Quote:
that's not the part that shocks me because, unfortunately, lots of parents screw up, some of whom really do learn their lesson and try to correct their behavior.
I just can't get past the whole setting oneself on fire part because one's brain isn't working correctly and how it sounds like no one cares and it sounds like no one around him cared that things were going wrong in said brain. ...

First, I like your recognition that parents screw up and some learn their lesson and try to correct their behavior, that harkens back to my believe that raising a child WITHOUT violence is much tougher and requires much more of a parent. I smacked Jeff a couple of times because he pushed me beyond my limit. I had no experience with child rearing and was in my mid-twenties, suddenly solely responsible for one teenager and one out-of-control child. I regretted it immediately and tried to make amends and learn from it. I never hit him again. It's hard to be self-aware when things are crazy and one loses control, but I believe it's necessary for the good of the child to keep trying.

But when it comes to lack of sympathy for the guy, I think it's because the topic has become whether violence in raising a child is right or wrong. The focus is on that, and most people are quicker to condemn and express their opinion than to consider all the ramifications. I, too, feel sympathy for what he did, for the same reason you mentioned, but I also don't think nobody cared. He had many opportunities to avail himself of help; he didn't. You can't force someone to get help, especially given, from his ranting, this guy thought he was in the right and everyone ELSE was at fault. It gets tricky; should he be held totally responsible because he was mentally ill; should the judicial system be held responsible because it only did half the job; should society be held completely responsible because it didn't step in and help him despite his unwillingness to be helped? Or is it a circumstance where an overburdened, imperfect system failed him and he failed (or was unable) to take responsibility for himself? Who's to judge?

Personally, I agree (from my own experiences) with what Kiki and others have said:

Quote:
I have learned it is very, very hard to put someone back on the tracks once they have derailed. In the end, no one else can change another or take responsibility for the actions of the other.

The fact that he chose fire, to me, is more than anything else an indication of mental instability. To choose to immolate oneself for a "principle" and as a refusal to pay $3,000 is truly insane and certainly SHOULD shock our sensibilities!

Nonetheless, it shouldn't stop us from recognizing the hurt suffered by everyone involved, including the guy

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:36 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte: From what I read (and I didn't read it all, either, so there may be more), he wrote "after my not lifting a finger for six months", his wife filed for divorce. Someone else mentioned that therapy WAS offered to him and he rejected it. There may well be more instances where he had the chance to deal with the situation and didn't, I dunno.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:54 AM

BYTEMITE

Sure, and it's also possible he's just quoting his ex on that and disagrees, because it doesn't seem to me that someone playing the victim would claim they hadn't been trying. I think we may be unable to read anything the guy has written straight, and it is difficult to know his exact meaning or what exactly happened from this.

I was only speculating on possibilities that might make his actions have some kind of sense behind them, but yes, it could also be that there was nothing rational here as well.

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Monday, June 27, 2011 12:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Frem, when I read your posts, it reminds me how differently people view the world, because we all look through our different prisms that are carved out by our individual experiences. Your world view and mine probably couldn't be more different.

I have seen through your various posts a deep and inherent distrust of legal institutions, and you have explained what has caused you to view them like this. I don't share those views, although I do think there are flaws and corruptions, I also think that there are a lot of good people who work in those systems who are trying to do the best they can. I think the whole court system here is beauracratic and a bit of a sausage factory, not very pleasant for people to use.

Here's the thing though. People don't have to use it. Courts, lawyers, and other agencies are there to be used when people can't sort their own stuff out, sometimes because they are too bloody minded to do so and are hell bent on revenge, and sometimes because they are dealing with a former partner who is mad/bad and or dangerous from whom they need some legal assistance to deal with if not downright protection.

Maybe not quite as different as you think, actually.

See, while I am very quick to jump on and excoriate (and yes, in some cases manipulate) the flaws of our immensely corrupt and contradictory legal system...
(and boy howdy, sausage factory is right, I take it you mean the old proverb regarding laws and sausages, yes ?)
Were I to not believe at least somewhat in its value, I certainly would not be CASA/GAL certed, nor would I participate whatever beyond the absolute minimum legal requirement, and would be immensely uncooperative even then... as some will soon find out after having pitched yet ANOTHER goddamn Jury Duty notice in my friggin mailbox.(1)

And yeah, there are quite a few people tryin to do what's right, often as not within a system that damn near expressly and explicitly prevents them FROM doing so - that's actually far worse in our social services systems than our legal, but both of em have that problem, for a fact.

One of the lawyers, and you'll find amusement in this, who assisted me in fully thrashing the everliving hell out of the medical establishment after their attempt to kill me off via medical neglect and denial of care...

Well, the particular medical establishment which pulled most of this shit was the University of Maryland medical system, and don't you know they have a law school specialising in medical-related law, right there, you see, and since other venues of legal aid all but ran with their tail between their legs at the mere thought of taking on the UofM behemoth, and happening to be "in the neighborhood" anyways trying to do something about their damn stonewalling, I figured why the hell not.

And so I wound up enlisting the aid of one of their own legal students, and his actual attorney supervisor, who thought it would be both tremendously ironic as well as serve both to finalize his education and remove any notion of potential future bias, as the student lawyer in question was indeed one of those "good people" who got into the biz in the first place for the sole purpose of righting injustices like that via the firm application of a legal ass-kicking - very much my type of guy, and the look of inspired delight on his face when I slapped three YEARS work of complete legwork and full documentation from day freakin one on his desk pre-sorted by both date and category was a memory I shall treasure forever - he looked like a kid who's just gotten three birthday cakes by accident, hehehehe.
The beatdown which followed was rather impressive, even though it had nothing to do with financial renumeration, and only served the purpose of forcing them to repair as much of the damage as possible on their own dime as retaliation for causing much of it in the first place - and every time they balked he was on their ass like a flamethrower, which was prettymuch every single time they had to do anything at all, of course.

So the system HAS it's values, and it's purpose, just because I can see all the flaws doesn't mean I wanna toss it in the crapper, so much as I want those flaws FIXED - and what with so many folk exploiting or misusing them, often it's an uphill battle and one is forced to themselves resort to the same tactics even if it offends their own sense of rightness.
The system shouldn't be so corrupt that you HAVE to deal from the bottom of the deck to get a fair shake, see ?

I much prefer binding arbitration, given that there's far less chicanery and corruption, generally it's done in plain english instead of legalese, and common sense is actually applied, not to mention often cheaper than full out legal proceedings.

-Frem
(1)- I get a damn lot of these, both as a deliberate annoyance from someone in the system taking issue with local political meddling, and because their so-called-random jury selection software has me flagged by demographic as someone who's very likely to be immensely hostile to a poor, black defendant and therefore render a "friendly" verdict.
(See Also: Jury Stacking)

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Monday, June 27, 2011 5:20 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

That's random, but i did manage to get myself kicked out of the adult behavioral department at echn...while visiting a friend..she grabbed me,pulled me into this nook area, and started kissing me like, well..a lunatic. Her nurse came around the corner and threw me out. What is odd that you mentioned hospitals..just two days before that marilyn was at rockville memorial in the er..they stuck her in this little room to sober up and shit...well, it was all night and i kept dozing off and my head would be on her lap..this orderly kept waking us up and telling us we couldn't sleep like that..so, after getting woke for the third time..marilyn went off with the f-bombs and the "why is this fucking barney retard wearing all purple waking me up every twenty minutes"...i got asked to leave.

She sounds like a gem. You two are obviously made for one another. Hope the children are in care.

I don't have children with that disaster..are you kidding? We just love eachother and create moderate havoc together...my children's mother is an angel..you'd like her

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Monday, June 27, 2011 11:16 PM