REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Americans weigh in on the Constitution

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 6, 2011 06:53
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Monday, July 4, 2011 9:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Apparently (are you reading, DT?), Americans think by a margin of 64-33 that a woman has the right to an abortion...



...and that we shouldn't do away with the Fourteenth Amendment.

Quote:

An interesting article I found:

The Constitution: One Document, Under Siege



Here are a few things the framers did not know about: World War II. DNA. Sexting. Airplanes. The atom. Television. Medicare. Collateralized debt obligations. The germ theory of disease. Miniskirts. The internal combustion engine. Computers. Antibiotics. Lady Gaga.

People on the right and left constantly ask what the framers would say about some event that is happening today. What would the framers say about whether the drones over Libya constitute a violation of Article I, Section 8, which gives Congress the power to declare war? Well, since George Washington didn't even dream that man could fly, much less use a global-positioning satellite to aim a missile, it's hard to say what he would think. What would the framers say about whether a tax on people who did not buy health insurance is an abuse of Congress's authority under the commerce clause? Well, since James Madison did not know what health insurance was and doctors back then still used leeches, it's difficult to know what he would say. And what would Thomas Jefferson, a man who owned slaves and is believed to have fathered children with at least one of them, think about a half-white, half-black American President born in Hawaii (a state that did not exist)? Again, hard to say.

The framers were not gods and were not infallible. Yes, they gave us, and the world, a blueprint for the protection of democratic freedoms — freedom of speech, assembly, religion — but they also gave us the idea that a black person was three-fifths of a human being, that women were not allowed to vote and that South Dakota should have the same number of Senators as California, which is kind of crazy. And I'm not even going to mention the Electoral College. They did not give us income taxes. Or Prohibition. Those came later.

Americans have debated the Constitution since the day it was signed, but seldom have so many disagreed so fiercely about so much. Would it be unconstitutional to default on our debt? Should we have a balanced-budget amendment? Is it constitutional to ask illegal immigrants to carry documents? The past decade, beginning with the disputed election of 2000, has been a long national civics class about what the Constitution means — and how much it still matters. For eight years under George W. Bush, the nation wrestled with the balance between privacy and security (an issue the framers contended with) while the left portrayed the country as moving toward tyranny. For the past three years under President Obama, we have weighed issues of individual freedom vs. government control while the right has portrayed the country as moving toward a socialist welfare state.

A new focus on the Constitution is at the center of our political stage with the rise of the Tea Party and its almost fanatical focus on the founding document. The new Republican Congress organized a reading of all 7,200 words of an amended version of the Constitution on the House floor to open its first session. As a counterpoint to the rise of constitutional originalists (those who believe the document should be interpreted only as the drafters understood it), liberal legal scholars analyze the text just as closely to find the elasticity they believe the framers intended. Everywhere there seems to be debate about the scope and meaning and message of the Constitution. This is a healthy thing. Even the framers would agree on that.

So, are we in a constitutional crisis? In a word, no. The Constitution was born in crisis. It was written in secret and in violation of the existing one, the Articles of Confederation, at a time when no one knew whether America would survive. The Constitution has never not been under threat. Benjamin Franklin was skeptical that it would work at all. Alexander Hamilton wondered whether Washington should be a king. Jefferson questioned the constitutionality of his own Louisiana Purchase.

Today's debates represent conflict, not crisis. Conflict is at the core of our politics, and the Constitution is designed to manage it. There have been few conflicts in American history greater than the internal debates the framers had about the Constitution. For better or for worse — and I would argue that it is for better — the Constitution allows and even encourages deep arguments about the most basic democratic issues. A crisis is when the Constitution breaks down. We're not in danger of that.

Nor are we in danger of flipping the Constitution on its head, as some of the Tea Party faithful contend. Their view of the founding documents was pretty well summarized by Texas Congressman Ron Paul back in 2008: "The Constitution was written explicitly for one purpose — to restrain the federal government." Well, not exactly. In fact, the framers did the precise opposite. They strengthened the center and weakened the states. The states had extraordinary power under the Articles of Confederation. Most of them had their own navies and their own currencies. The truth is, the Constitution massively strengthened the central government of the U.S. for the simple reason that it established one where none had existed before.

Much more at http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2079445,00.html

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Monday, July 4, 2011 5:52 PM

DREAMTROVE


How inane. The constitution does not mention abortion.


Gallup, May 15, 2009 – More Americans describe themselves as “pro-life” on abortion (51%) than “pro-choice” (42%)

Marist: 59% of people under the age of 45 think abortion is "morally wrong"

CNN, 2007: 45% pro-choice compared to 50% Pro-Life

NYT: 61% of women, 60% of men, and 57% of democrats and 69% of republicans would like to see further restrictions on abortion.

(notice how party line and gender split that result wasn't?)

Rasmussen, 2011: 42% pro-choice, 44% pro-life, 13% undecided. 65% would like to see further restrictions, 24% are opposed, 11% undecided.


Those were my top results of a google search on pro-choice pro-life polls, and unbiased search.

TIME is push-polling.


IIRC, the constitution says nothing about concealment or guns. A militia has a right to be armed, to prevent tyranny (secure a free state.) I support the 14th a. I oppose modern interpretations of the constitution because as much as I distrust the founding fathers, I distrust modern politicians far more. Congress should have the power to declare war, but I think that states should have the power to refuse to send troops to a foreign war if they do not support it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 1:12 AM

DMAANLILEILTT


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Congress should have the power to declare war, but I think that states should have the power to refuse to send troops to a foreign war if they do not support it.


Cause that could never end badly.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 2:04 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

How inane. The constitution does not mention abortion.




Boy, for someone who is tired of talking about it, you sure like bringing it up, don't you?

Since you brought it up...

You're right, though; the Constitution doesn't mention it. Since so much of the document is a list of things the government CAN'T do, you'd think they might have mentioned that "Congress shall make no law restricting the life of the unborn", but they didn't. Looks like the really didn't care one way or the other. The rights of the unborn aren't mentioned in any way, are they?

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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


So, to rebut all the polls I cited, you put up polls from two and four years ago??? I gave RECENT polls--in other words, people can evolve in their opinions, especially when an issue comes to the fore and people get educated about it.

As to one poll you cited,
Quote:

59% of people under the age of 45 think abortion is "morally wrong"
JS is a prime example of someone who believes abortion is morally wrong, but accepts the need for it. He stated he represents the majority of pro-lifers he knows, and I tend to think he's right.

I have no reason to believe ANY of your numbers, given you didn't bother to post any cites. You said it was the result of a search, so why not present the cites so we can look for ourselves?

And don't tell me to go look it up myself; you DID the search, it's your responsibility to stand behind the results you posted. I post cites with my facts so people can go to the source and decide for themselves.

Your insinuation is that I did a "biased search", yet all I did was reject polls that weren't from 2011, which indicate how the country feels NOW. That's not biased, it is the more relevant indication of how things ARE, not polls from four years ago.

If you care to have your post recognized as valid, please address these issues.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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Wednesday, July 6, 2011 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Want some recent polling data? Some detailed data? WITH CITES?

June 6, 2011:

Republicans pro-life, 68% - pro-choice, 27%
Democrats pro-life, 32% - pro-choice, 68%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147941/Republicans-Unified-Democrats-Aborti
on.aspx


There's a big difference when using the term "pro-choice" and "pro-life".

As of May 2011:

Pro-choice: 49%
Pro-life: 45%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147734/Americans-Split-Along-Pro-Choice-Pro
-Life-Lines.aspx


As of June 20-21:

Agree or disagree: A woman should have the right to decide to terminate a pregnancy in the first few months of her pregnancy."

Strongly agree: 45%
Somewhat agree: 19%
Somewhat disagree: 11%
Strongly disagree: 24%

But even when discussing abortion itself, more are pro-abortion.

Gallup, as of May 2011. This one is really detailed, asking whether abortion should be legal under "some circumstances", "all circumstances", or completely illegal. I'm simplifying it to just legal or illegal:

Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?

Legal: 77%
Illegal: 22%


Going back further in time:

2008: Would you like to see the Supreme Court overturn its 1973 Roe versus Wade decision concerning abortion, or not?
:

Overturn: 33%
Not overturn: 52%


2006: Would you oppose or favor a law in your state that would ban all abortions except those necessary to save the life of the mother?

Oppose: 60%
Favor: 36%


2008: Would you like to see abortion laws in this country made more strict, less strict, or remain as they are?

More strict: 31%
Less strict: 21%
Remain the same: 42%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/Abortion.aspx


As to whether Americans consider themselves "pro-choice" or "pro-life", in February 2011:

Pro-choice: 45%
Pro-life: 47%

http://race42012.com/2011/02/18/the-new-normal-more-americans-pro-life
-than-pro-choice
/
(As I said before, this doesn't reflect whether people think abortion should be legal, given what JS said that, as a pro-lifer, he nonetheless recognizes the right to choose, and other pro-lifers he knows feel the same. That would change the figures dramatically.)


From 2005-2009, by age group:



Note only those 65 and older believe abortion should be illegal under all circumstances more than legal under any circumstances, and in every category those who believe that it should be legal under some circumstances vastly outweigh the other two categories:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126581/Generational-Differences-Abortion-Na
rrow.aspx



When a number of polls asked whether people are pro-CHOICE or pro-life, it's even more dramatic:

2009:

Pro-choice: 51.7%
Pro-life: 41.2
http://www.pollingnumbers.com/poll-of-polls/pro-choice-pro-life.html

Response?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off




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