REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Right now, you have the right to have children, or not to

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 10:34
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Friday, July 22, 2011 1:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

See, within the whole "pro-life" theme, movement, whatever, in between the well meaning do-gooders and the zealots and crusaders looking for any excuse to hurt someone and feel good about it, there lies what I consider to be the very bedrock of the movement - which is NOT, IMHO, the concept that women have this right, but that women have rights at all.
Cause come to cases, that's what this is ABOUT - they can't render women back into chattel, and they can't revoke their right to vote, so by gum, by golly, they'll show put those babymaking bitches in their place somehow, since the very fact that women HAVE a role in society other than as fucktoys and baby factories is profoundly offensive to them, although they'd not admit it publicly, oh hell no, but the concept, and most especially the fuckin ATTITUDE, is right there out and up front for anyone willing to look clearly.




Bingo. These are the very people who, given the chance, would gladly put every woman in a burqa, and they're just mad because "those damned Muslims" thought of it first. They are, in every imaginable way, the American Taliban. And despite their "pro-life" claims, they have proven themselves more than willing to commit murder for their beliefs.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, July 22, 2011 3:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Actually, I may be a wee bit more rabid about this at the moment than usual...

I was at the drugstore picking up a prescription, and in comes this girl, I'd say mid-teens but these days everyone under thirty starts lookin like a kid to me, yanno ?
Anyhow, she tries to buy condoms, struggling against her own flustered embarassment, and the clerk at the prescription counter gives her no end of bullshit hassle about it, up to and including demanding identification, claiming it's store policy - something which instantly failed the sniff test with me and drew my attention and ire, here's a teen *trying* to be responsible, TRYING to do the right thing, and as usual, catching no end of shit for it.

She finally loses her nerve and skitters off, all red faced and completely mortified, and I was still gonna let it go, really I was...
And then the counter clerk hisses "whore!" sotto voce in her general direction.

Two steps and I slam my hand down on the package and insist that he ring it up with my prescription, to which he glares and asks if I want to hump her too - and I told him, one more word and he would be pickin his teeth up off the floor, and I damn well meant it, so he sullenly rings it up, and I quickly hobble to the parking lot and catch up with the girl, catch her attention with a whistle and toss her the package.
She looks up and me and says "why?"
I told her cause she was trying to be responsible and that oughta be encouraged, and then went back in and had a bit of a sharp discussion with the manager(1) who was not best pleased by me threatening one of her employees, who than had the bad grace to stand there and fucking lie (unconvincingly, thanks be) about what went down.

It's bullshit like that which makes me wanna wrap one hand around their neck and crush their windpipe, provoking my latent sadism to no bloody end, something my beliefs positively encourage in respect to using a position of authority to force ones theology or morality upon others - so yeah, I'm not really in a bullshit toleratin mood about it at the nonce.

(1) I know the lady, from the previous incident where every member of her store who got that one flu shot got devastatingly ill, and those who skipped it were fine - when this was pointed out to her complete horror that drugstore quit offering the shots, which for them that want em is fine cause there's several more within a mile which do... and as for an ID check being store policy (and he completely denied demanding ID from her despite me standing right there watching him do it) as I suspected, bullshit - he was just being a dick.

That kinda thing strikes personal with me cause in order to even have/use the damn things back in my day I had to put up with a lot of scorn from my so-called-peers about it, and had to fucking steal the damn things besides, but the hell if I wasn't gonna suit up after watching a couple students wind up with STDs or caught in a deliberate entrapment pregnancy - Bruce I didn't feel too sorry for, but what that girl did to Dom was beyond the freakin pale...
Which come to think about it, OUGHT to be an issue here regarding access to contraceptives also protecting men from games like that, but the very idea of a MALE taking any responsibility whatsoever for a pregnancy is completely outside the worldview of these "American Taliban" gits, as Mikey calls em - and being forced to do so via paternity test just fills them with freakin horror, just as any other act of taking personal responsibility does.

Funny how nobody BUT me ever seems to bring up the notion that the GUY might have some fucking responsibility (pun oh so certainly intended) here, isn't it ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 22, 2011 3:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
This might be my last post in this thread, I'm walking that dangerous line again where I'm attempting to defend people I don't actually agree with. I just felt they were being slandered... or libeled I guess?... and had no one speaking for them.


Happy, you should never, ever back down from that position, even when everybody seems to disagree with you - I know it's aggravating as hell, believe me, it's usually me standing up for cretins like that sleazerag Fred Phelps when it comes to free speech, but if you truly feel a position needs defending even if it differs from your own, then you should do so.

For mine own I consider you "well meaning do-gooder" rather than "american taliban", lol - and we're basically agreed that preventing unwanted pregnancy is a better end to work from than coming at it all ass-backwards, sure.

But make no mistake, I firmly believe what I wrote above, and *THOSE* people need their butts kicked - I just don't whatever think you're one of em, is all.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, July 22, 2011 7:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

if they're going to do it and can't be talked out of it I'd rather they didn't do it in the back alley where they themselves are at more risk. But I think the most important thing is to discourage it being done and encouraging other choices and safer/more protected sex practices to begin with.
Riona, bang on. That's the answer to the entire debate, because abortion has existed since people first found a way to do it (safe or not) and always will exist.

DT, I'm glad you said "if you ask people how you feel now vs, in the past, people i think would overwhelmingly say "more conservative.", I wish you could add that caveat or something like it more often, we'd be at odds less. Because I disagree wholeheartedly and MY experience has been exactly the opposite (not with my own family, I only had a mother and father, but with others close to me and throughout my life).

I find it interesting that you never admitted your statement might even possibly be wrong, given all the material I put up, and instead went on to justify your original statement. So you see nothing contradictory in all those polls? You said I made a good point, but not that I'd shown your numbers were wrong (and only one person's opinion).

It's a shame you didn't add "in my opinion" or something to your other statement that
Quote:

Zogby is secretly a dem, though he tries to be neutral, but he wants to make sure that future demographics support the democratic party
because I find that one way out in "left" field (pun intended). I won't go into it, I recognize it's your opinion whether you realize that or not, but I think you're wrong.
Quote:

rape-pregnancies, etc. Were already going on, and were, prior to the insitution of widescale elective abortions, a few hundred a year
Facts, please. I have difficulty believing it was only a few hundred a year. Even if it was only that many ADMITTED or made public each year, I still disagree.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 22, 2011 7:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Happy, you're right about the last quote, it was you quoting someone else. My apologies. And just FYI, I didn't find anything you wrote insulting. I understood what you were trying to say.
Quote:

contraception and education is not part of the abortion restrictions
The actual issue I was trying to address was one segment of the population trying to force it's beliefs on others, not just abortion. Abortion is the most obvious issue, but the fact that this same segment is equally against teaching sex-education in school AND pregnancy-preventative methods is all the same issue in that respect. Oops, I see Kiki addressed that better than I could: "What she said".

I understand how you feel, and I definitely AM slandering them insofar as I abhor their gaining power under essentially false pretences and then making laws forcing others to abide by THEIR standards. I make no apology for that; people can believe whatever they wish, it's when they use power to force things that pertain to our own bodies, abortion being the worst example, I'll express my opinion vehemently.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 22, 2011 7:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Frem, we stand in pretty much the same place, and my reasoning is pretty much like yours. Yes, religions have utilized "sanctity of life" to virtually enslave women throughout history, and I'll grant that there's an element of that in the abortion issue (tho' I'd qualify it that it's SUBconscious in most). I don't think they realize what's at the core consciously, or at least the vast majority of them do not. By that I mean it's easier to quote the Bible and use religion than it is to search themselves logically for WHY they push so hard (NOT necessarily why they believe as they do, but why they're willing to force it on others).

And gawd, smoke came out of my ears at your story. It's a bloody good thing I wasn't there; I'm not you and probably would have gotten in trouble. Tho' since you refrained from getting physical, maybe not; I wouldn't have either, but I'd certainly have had some things to say about it, which it sounds like might have been a might more vehement than yours. Or not, knowing you.

That sort of thing just makes me SEETHE, and since it's been given laws to allow it made me just want to those who wrote them. People like this:
Quote:

Neil Noesen, a relief pharmacist at the Kmart in Menomonie, Wis., was the only person on duty one day in 2002 when a woman came in to refill her prescription for the contraceptive Loestrin FE. According to a complaint filed by the Wisconsin department of regulation and licensing, Noesen refused because of his religious opposition to birth control. He also declined to transfer the prescription to a nearby pharmacy and refused once again when the woman returned to the store with police.

The American Pharmacists Association says pharmacists should be allowed to refuse to fill a prescription. If they do, however, it ought to be filled by someone else or transferred to another pharmacy, the group has said

.....

two states, South Dakota and Arkansas, have passed laws that explicitly protect pharmacists who refuse to fill birth-control prescriptions on moral or religious grounds. Similar legislation has been introduced in 13 other states. Karen Brauer, who says she was fired by Kmart in 1996 for refusing to fill a birth-control prescription and is now president of Pharmacists for Life, says such laws are needed. "Pharmacists are being expected to do things that they do not believe they should do," she says.

More at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040607-644153,00.
html


And this, which is quite on-point to what you wrote (tho' the reference is somewhat wider):
Quote:

But it’s not just about contraception any more: It’s also about the right to have children. Pamela reports that a woman in California was refused IVF treatment by a doctor who said that treating her would be against his religion.

Now why in the world would a doctor who disagrees with IVF be working at a fertility clinic, you ask? Because he doesn’t oppose IVF, exactly — he just doesn’t like lesbians, and this woman happened to be one.

But at least they’re being honest here: It’s not about “life.” It’s not about babies. It’s about social control. It’s about whose lives are deemed worthy, and which choices fit into the narrow worldview of religious conservatives. The “pro-life” opposition to abortion and contraception doesn’t come from a serious concern for all those fertilized egg-babies out there; it comes out of a concern for changing gender roles, and the evolution of the family into a unit that is increasingly non-patriarchal, egalitarian and diverse. It’s very much about a class of viewpoints: The feminist/humanist/scientific/modern view, which wants to allow individuals the right to self-determination, and the conservative/regressive view, which wants to take us back to a Golden Era of the family that never actually existed in real life, wherein men were in charge and women knew their place.

It’s a vision that most people in this country don’t want — which is why anti-choicers and conservatives have to hang their arguments on abortion and babies. But as this case shows, it’s not about that at all. It’s about flat-out hostility towards women who buck the role these men would like to pin on them.

Now, to be clear, I do think that conscience clauses have a reasonable place. I don’t think that doctors, nurses or other medical professionals should be forced to perform any procedure the patient wants, even if it violates the doctor’s moral/ethical standards. But I do think that medical professionals should have to do the job they signed up for. That is, if you’re a dermatologist, I can see why it’s not reasonable to expect you to perform an abortion or write someone a birth control prescription. If you went into plastic surgery, you probably shouldn’t be required to freeze someone’s eggs or try in-vitro fertilization just because your patient asks you to. But if the thing you object to is a part of the normal course of your job, and was a totally foreseeable consequences of you taking that job, I don’t have much sympathy.

More excellent points on the subject at http://www.alternet.org/blogs/reproductivejustice/87194/religion_is_no
t_an_excuse_for_refusing_to_give_medical_care
/

By the way, while I agree with what you said to Happy, I also acknowledge that holding your own HERE can be damned uncomfortable, and fault no one for deciding not to endure the result of standing by their position. We're here because it gives us something (which is different for each of us, as we know); if it ceases being an enjoyable activity, nobody should feel bad if they do something else, y'know? I know you weren't trying to force him and I understand what you're saying, I'm just adding my own "caveat" as it were.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 22, 2011 8:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, and just to make *sure*...
I'm leaving out obvious nutburgers like Dobson and Falwell, represented in plenty, and still kinda-sorta "accepted" by that movement despite the fact that they're fucking insane, simply for the amount of money and influence they retain - which tells one much about their followers, neh?

Anyhow, here's a pair of these gits in their own words.

Joe Scheidler - Pro-life Action League
Quote:

I think contraception is disgusting -- people using each other for pleasure.

...the Pro-Life Action League opposes *all* forms of contraception...


Randall Terry - Operation Rescue
Quote:

"I don't think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like – and if you have babies, you have babies."


And for more information, both of these links would be useful.

Could Abortion Opponents Embrace Contraception?
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2009/10/15/the_semisecret_prolife
_fight_against_contraception.html

Quote:

Dan Savage is right ; the organized anti-choice movement is motivated by the desire to punish what they consider deviant sexuality much more than they are motivated by any love of fetal life. It's been well-observed by pro-choice activists for a long time that anti-choice activists, given the choice between punishing sex and reducing the abortion rate, will choose the former every time. The anti-choice movement's hostility towards contraception is an open secret; most people on both sides of the debate know about it, but anti-choice activists also know better than to flaunt their hatred of contraception when trying to woo people on the issue of abortion. As I discovered when an anti-choice handbook fell into my hands , activists are instructed to dodge questions about their hostility to contraception early in conversations, and put a great deal of work into softening targets up before hitting them with appeals against not just abortion, but contraception.


Pro-Life really means Anti-Contraception
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/pro-life-really-means-anti-contra
ceptio

Quote:

I'm sure most of us have been amazed at how disingenuous pro-life groups are when it comes to contraception. They scream "life" is sacred, but then try to prevent all ways that are available to our society when it comes to pregnancy prevention. We've seen insane protests against the Plan B pill which would actually prevent unwanted pregnancies. What many pro-lifers really want to do is control the sex lives of every American. I know it's hard to picture, it creeps me out just thinking about it, but the James Dobsons and Richard Lands of the religious right just want to decide when and how people can have sex.

ANd yes, I know bloody well that doesn't encompass ALL pro-lifers, many of them are far more rational and reasonable than the folks actually running the circus, but that means jack, cause as noted, these assholes *are* running the circus, they're the ones in charge, making the decisions, supplying the resources, and therefore they are the bedrock of the pro-life movement, it's very foundation, as it were.

Again, a problem masquerading as it's own solution, and more reasonable, rational voices are drowned out by their howling chorus of ludicrous puritan intolerance, which results with anyone affiliated or even thought to be, with them being tarred with the same brush - something those reasonable folk have not acted on sufficiently because even while acknowledging the wrongness of it, the massive support they can offer is so useful, so tempting...

And thus do they fall, for when one goes and takes a moral stand, often as not that FIRST requires taking one against one's so-called-allies, and till this happens, well....

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 25, 2011 2:30 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Frem, I'm glad that cashier got in some trouble, he has no way of knowing how old the customer is, she could be grown but just look young, and anyways if he didn't want to sell them to her he could have sent her to the other cash register or something, it isn't rocket science. Which ties in (though it doesn't make sense to me why) with the pharmacist thing, if a pharmicist isn't willing to fill a perscription then s/he should send them to another pharmacy or have one of their colleagues come do it. Its just common courtesy.

As someone who will not be reproducing, thank you very much, I'm very pro preventative controception. I think most of my pro-life aquaintances/family are too, I don't know anyone who is opposed to it really, okay, my grandma might be but I'm afraid to ask her, :). But then again she may not be because whenever I ask if she thinks my cousins with spouses will have babies she says (well it isn't up to me, that's up to them).

Niki, I know that I personally am pro having a pregnant woman, especially the young ones and teens, have some counseling before doing the procedure, so we aren't in total agreement on the abortion issue by any means, but I do understand what you mean about how some people will do whatever it takes, safe or not, to get that pregnancy terminated.
:(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, July 26, 2011 10:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Problem with that Riona, is that often as not the "counselling" is just an excuse to delay the process, they'll stall and stall and refuse to schedule it, claiming they have no counsellors available - or make the girl show up repeatedly only to be told it's been rescheduled, days and weeks past and golly-gee lookit that, you're too far along and we're not gonna do it.
And you *KNOW* what the end result of that usually is...
I kid thee not, one of the FIRST reccommendations I *have* to make to anyone considering it, is to get a goddamn lawyer, immediately - because without that push, without that threat, they'll play games with you.

Oh, and in many cases, you know what that "counselling" consists of ?
YOU'RE GOING TO HELLLLL!!!!111
Cause yeah, that's all the poor girl needs, a heaping helping of fire and brimstone ladled on with guilt and intolerance as a side order, sure.

Although one *could* make a case for throwing a lil bit of it at the irresponsible bastard who knocked her up, provided it wasn't a failure of contraception or simple ignorance thanks to the pro-life assault on that kind of education.

Also, seems no one else has addressed the pregnancy-trap game - condoms protect the GUY from that trick, so it's of mutual benefit, although in school I had a bit of an edge, since I knew damn well I was sterile, despite suiting up (and being mocked for it) anyways - so when the sniffly, teary-eyed chain yank...
"I think I am/I am - pregnant"
Got thrown at *ME*, my response was sarcastic laughter - ESPECIALLY in the case of Carolyn, who make the ridiculous mistake of FORGETTING I NEVER ACTUALLY SLEPT WITH HER!
*shaking head*
But guys are irresponsible pricks too, alas, alas.
Of course, the solution to both is as near as the damn drugstore, provided that they are available and the bastards will sell em to you - I still think we oughta make the Trojan Man our national hero, really...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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