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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Dutch rethink Christianity for a doubtful world
Sunday, August 7, 2011 7:22 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:The Rev Klaas Hendrikse can offer his congregation little hope of life after death, and he's not the sort of man to sugar the pill. An imposing figure in black robes and white clerical collar, Mr Hendrikse presides over the Sunday service at the Exodus Church in Gorinchem, central Holland. It is part of the mainstream Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN), and the service is conventional enough, with hymns, readings from the Bible, and the Lord's Prayer. But the message from Mr Hendrikse's sermon seems bleak - "Make the most of life on earth, because it will probably be the only one you get". "Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death." Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing. "When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience." Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life. His book Believing in a Non-Existent God led to calls from more traditionalist Christians for him to be removed. However, a special church meeting decided his views were too widely shared among church thinkers for him to be singled out. A study by the Free University of Amsterdam found that one-in-six clergy in the PKN and six other smaller denominations was either agnostic or atheist. "I think 'Son of God' is a kind of title," she says. "I don't think he was a god or a half god. I think he was a man, but he was a special man because he was very good in living from out of love, from out of the spirit of God he found inside himself. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14417362
Sunday, August 7, 2011 8:01 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:16 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Sunday, August 7, 2011 5:35 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, August 8, 2011 5:36 AM
Monday, August 8, 2011 6:28 AM
THEHAPPYTRADER
Select to view spoiler:
Monday, August 8, 2011 1:19 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: Hey I've got this great idea. I'm calling it dancing, and the events will be dances, only you stay in your chair and there is no music. You can still find a partner and socialize with others in a good natured fashion, but movement and music just aren't essential in dancing. They've every right to practice what beliefs they wish, but IMO it seems silly to take the 'Christ' part out of Christianity. As to all this 'condemnation' 'oppression' and the like, it is my understanding that none of us are worthy of forgiveness and eternal life. God, being a rather benevolent shiny type, sent his son to show us the way. We are saved by grace (not by deed) and thus have nothing to be 'proud' of. A true Christian follows our savior's example by forgiving and welcoming others. Jesus showed us that way, and whether or not it is he only way ain't my call nor anyone elses. Bit of a rant here, feel free to skip it. Select to view spoiler:Many of these negative 'oppressor' type traits some of y'all appear to be attributing to Christianity in general, I have rarely seen nor heard of outside the frothy mouths of raging atheists. Sure there's a few Fred Phelps's out there in the world, but that can be applied to any group, religious or not. Even the Baptist are more often just guilty of having too many recipes for potato salad.
Monday, August 8, 2011 1:35 PM
Monday, August 8, 2011 2:44 PM
Monday, August 8, 2011 3:20 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Monday, August 8, 2011 4:02 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: That is a good analogy for religion Megons, bit my tongue and cheek analogy was meant only to apply to Christianity. The common theme amongst all sects of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus Christ and the belief that his sacrifice grants us forgiveness and salvation, though we do not deserve it. Taking that out is like taking music out of dancing. It can still be a positive exercise or philosophy, but IMO just isn't the same thing. I don't understand it, but they've every right to do it.
Monday, August 8, 2011 4:09 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Interesting that people need to believe the story of the NT in order to accept the lessons. It reminds me of a distinction I came across, which is the difference in following a religion ABOUT Jesus (his divinity, his power, etc) v the religion OF Jesus - love your god above all and your neighbor as yourself.
Monday, August 8, 2011 4:14 PM
Monday, August 8, 2011 4:18 PM
Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM
Monday, August 8, 2011 7:54 PM
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:03 AM
Quote: If you take the divine out of it, is it really still a religion though? This approach just seems more like a philosophy than a religion is all.
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:04 AM
Quote: Early Christians believed a whole host of things that we'd find peculiar today, or wouldn't look anything like Christianity. There is nothing pure about the beliefs of Christians, they merge and meld a whole host of philosophies and teachings from other belief systems, including other religions. In the early days, there were many, many sects that believed different things. People bickered over the divinity of Jesus, the relationship of Jesus to God, the virginity of Mary.
Quote: It seems to me that this church has chosen to follow the teachings of Jesus in how to live your life , without worrying about what happens to you afterwards. Personally, I've always found the philosophy inherent in a lot of Christianity that you live well to get into heaven kind of morally flawed so kudos to them for doing something different.
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:09 AM
Quote:This Christmas season, 78% of Americans identify with some form of Christian religion, a proportion that has been declining in recent decades. The major reason for this decline has been an increase in the percentage of Americans claiming no religious identity, now at 13% of all adults. The trend results are based on annual averages of Gallup's religious identity data in America that stretch back over 60 years. One of the most significant trends documented during this period is the substantial increase in the percentage of American adults who don't identify with any specific religion. In 1948, only 2% of Americans did not identify with a religion. That percentage began to rise in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Eleven years ago, in 1998, 6% of Americans did not identify with a religion, a number that rose to 10% by 2002. This year's average of 13% of Americans who claim no religious identity is the highest in Gallup records. The percentage of Americans who identify as Catholic, Protestant, or some other non-Catholic Christian faith has been concomitantly decreasing over the years. This suggests that one of the major patterns of religious transition in America in recent decades has been the shift from identification as Christian to the status of having no specific religious identification. In 1948, 91% of Americans identified with a Christian faith. Twenty years ago, in 1989, 82% of Americans identified as Christian. Ten years ago, it was 84%. This year, as noted, 78% of all American adults identify with a Christian faith. There has also been a slight increase in the percentage of Americans who identify with a religion that is not specifically classified as Christian. Sixty years ago, for example, 4% of Americans identified with a non-Christian religion. By 1989, 9% of Americans were in this non-Christian religion category, the same percentage as today. Does the decrease in religious identity signify that religion is losing its importance for Americans? There was a substantial drop in the percentage of Americans who said religion was "very important" in their lives between the 1960s and the 1970s -- from 70% in 1965 to 52% by 1978 -- but in recent decades, this "very important" percentage has remained relatively steady. The overall figure today -- 56% -- is slightly higher than it was 31 years ago. Gallup has asked Americans over the years whether "religion can answer all or most of today's problems" or whether it "is largely old-fashioned and out of date." The majority of Americans over the last 52 years have chosen the first of these responses. the percentage of Americans who in theory could celebrate Christmas this week as a specific component of their religious faith is down significantly from where it was 50 or 60 years ago. The most important reason for this shift is straightforward: there has been an increasing percentage of Americans who say they have no specific religious identity. The fact that fewer Americans say they have a religious identity does not necessarily mean there has been a decrease in overall religiosity in America. It is possible that some proportion of those who don't identify with a specific religion are still personally or spiritually religious. More details at http://www.gallup.com/poll/124793/This-Christmas-78-Americans-Identify-Christian.aspx
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:52 AM
BYTEMITE
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:53 AM
MALACHITE
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 11:17 AM
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:40 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: That's a very convoluted paragraph, I couldn't quite figure it out. What I got was if Christ wasn't raised, faith is useless. That's strange to me, for everything to rest on that one thing. Why would faith, with all the wonderful things Christ preached, become "useless" if he wasn't raised? I don't get the "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" --does that mean that if we only have hope in Christ in this life? Still confusing. Could you explain, please? I'm not fond of the idea that unless I believe someone was raised by a god, I'm in sin and to be pitied. That's the part of religion I DESPISE, the "unless you believe what we do, you're trash". No, thank you! I don't think anyone is trash, whatever they believe, if it helps them be a better person. Any god who tells me otherwise is no god I want to know, much less worship. Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani, Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”, signing off
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 12:50 PM
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:36 PM
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:59 PM
Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:37 PM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:50 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: That's a very convoluted paragraph, I couldn't quite figure it out. What I got was if Christ wasn't raised, faith is useless. That's strange to me, for everything to rest on that one thing. Why would faith, with all the wonderful things Christ preached, become "useless" if he wasn't raised? I don't get the "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" --does that mean that if we only have hope in Christ in this life? Still confusing. Could you explain, please? I'm not fond of the idea that unless I believe someone was raised by a god, I'm in sin and to be pitied. That's the part of religion I DESPISE, the "unless you believe what we do, you're trash". No, thank you! I don't think anyone is trash, whatever they believe, if it helps them be a better person. Any god who tells me otherwise is no god I want to know, much less worship.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 6:57 AM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:09 AM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Man, every now and then I remember why I don't really like the Christian teachings. But, side note: there wasn't really a punishment after death for Old Testament believers... Or a reward. They all went to Sheol. It wasn't until Zoroastrianism and the Christians that the faith had a concept of heaven and hell.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:30 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: It still doesn't make sense to ME, but I kind of follow the logic it contains if you believe in God and original sin, etc. If I don't HAVE to strive to be who I want to be, and am "saved" just because someone else was sacrificed, it's all too easy not to try. Does that make any sense? I do believe in Christ, by the way, but believe he was a great man with SO many wonderful things to teach humanity, just as was Buddha, but no more a "diety" THAN Buddha.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:57 AM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:41 AM
Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:51 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:56 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 5:58 AM
Quote:Biblically, I thought angels were pretty consistently represented, that is something that was pretty awe and fear inspiring. In common culture, though, angels are cute, unintimidating and kind of magic djinni-like. Is that the contrast you were making?
Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:01 AM
Quote: He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the world
Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:13 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:15 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Riona, if you believe Quote: He does work on our lives and because we are seeking Him and getting to know Him we are becoming more interested in doing the right things, loving humanity, striving to be our best/to be self aware and wanting to make positive differences in the worldthen why HAVEN'T Christians improved in all this time? If it worked as you say, surely Christians would have become better than those of other religions, or better than those who have none. Yet while many strive to do the right thing, love humanity, etc., the majority do not...at least when it comes to good works and become self-aware, from my observation. At this time in history, in this country, it's exactly the opposite for people like Bachmann and many "religious fundamentalists", they are more focused on hate and judgment than loving others. How does that square with what you said? Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani, Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”, signing off
Thursday, August 11, 2011 6:49 AM
Quote: Buddha formulated his teaching in a way that directly addresses the critical problem at the heart of human existence -- the problem of suffering -- and does so without reliance upon the myths and mysteries so typical of religion. He further promises that those who follow his teaching to its end will realize here and now the highest happiness and peace. All other concerns apart from this, such as theological dogmas, metaphysical subtleties, rituals and rules of worship, the Buddha waves aside as irrelevant to the task at hand, the mind's liberation from its bonds and fetters. This pragmatic thrust of the Dharma is clearly illustrated by the main formula into which the Buddha compressed his program of deliverance, namely, the Four Noble Truths: (1) the noble truth that life involves suffering (2) the noble truth that suffering arises from craving (3) the noble truth that suffering ends with the removal of craving (4) the noble truth that there is a way to the end of suffering. The Buddha not only makes suffering and release from suffering the focus of his teaching, but he deals with the problem of suffering in a way that reveals extraordinary psychological insight. He traces suffering to its roots within our minds, first to our craving and clinging, and then a step further back to ignorance, a primordial unawareness of the true nature of things. Since suffering arises from our own minds, the cure must be achieved within our minds, by dispelling our defilements and delusions with insight into reality. The beginning point of the Buddha's teaching is the unenlightened mind, in the grip of its afflictions, cares, and sorrows; the end point is the enlightened mind, blissful, radiant, and free. To bridge the gap between the beginning and end points of his teaching, the Buddha offers a clear, precise, practicable path made up of eight factors. This of course is the Noble Eightfold Path. The path begins with (1) right view of the basic truths of existence, and (2) right intention to undertake the training. It then proceeds through the three ethical factors of (3) right speech, (4) right action, and (5) right livelihood, to the three factors pertaining to meditation and mental development: (6) right effort, (7) right mindfulness, and (8) right concentration. When all eight factors of the path are brought to maturity, the disciple penetrates with insight the true nature of existence The methodological characteristics of the Buddha's teaching follow closely from its aim. One of its most attractive features, closely related to its psychological orientation, is its emphasis on self-reliance. For the Buddha, the key to liberation is mental purity and correct understanding, and thus he rejects the idea that we can gain salvation by leaning on anyone else. The Buddha does not claim any divine status for himself, nor does he profess to be a personal savior. He calls himself, rather, a guide and teacher, who points out the path the disciple must follow. Since wisdom or insight is the chief instrument of emancipation, the Buddha always asked his disciples to follow him on the basis of their own understanding, not from blind obedience or unquestioning trust. He invites inquirers to investigate his teaching, to examine it in the light of their own reason and intelligence. The Dharma or Teaching is experiential, something to be practiced and seen, not a verbal creed to be merely believed.
Quote: the idea of doing good works to earn your way to heaven/nirvana, and noting that is exhausting and futile. It presents the sacrifice of Christ as an opportunity to find peace and rest, getting off of the hamster wheel of trying to prove one's goodness to god/gods/other people/oneself.
Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:03 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:08 AM
Quote:On any instrument (though perhaps especially on the French Horn) you can never achieve absolute perfection. Mistakes will be made and there is always more to learn. This isn't depressing or illogical to me, it gives me something to look forward to and work towards. A wonderful quest that will never be over!
Thursday, August 11, 2011 7:17 AM
Quote:As you said, for me that makes it all to easy to live falsely, and humans are all too vulnerable to laziness. Certainly the same can be said of buddhism; if we choose not to move forward on our path, it's no better than the Christian who just uses Christ's divinity to believe they're saved. But buddhism puts the onus on US to become self-aware
Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:07 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:21 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:32 AM
Thursday, August 11, 2011 11:28 AM
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