What's up with TARGET: EPA! ?? by pizmobeach

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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
EPA, Dept. of Education ( big union safe haven ) lead the way to for targets of reform in this country.

Thx AU, but, eh? I didn't ask right maybe... there always seems to be the first screen of reasoning (the ones the candidates use on air) and then there's the REAL reason they are attacking something. The EPA is a Rep brainchild isn't it? Nixon? Are rep voters really expected to believe the EPA is bad for jobs? More like "bad for jobs" is a buzz phrase that the casual, unthinking voter will latch onto safely and clap along to. So who's pulling the strings and for what? I just can't believe Big Coal has that much pull with all the Rep. candidates and Fox, and if not them, then is it rep strategists? I don't get the angle.

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Sunday, August 21, 2011 5:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Nah, any and ALL businesses whose bottom line is affected by any kind of regulation, not just coal, is the answer (with the backing of the Kochs). Did you catch my thread on their latest battle with regulation? The right hates anything that gets in the way of profits...you know, like not polluting with their waste, paying the money to ensure oil rigs are safe, not being able to drill whereEVER they want to, minor stuff like that.

And yes, it was predicted a while ago that the EPA would be the next target. The Republicans you speak of were our daddy's Republicans. Just as today's Tea Party isn't Ron Paul's Tea Party, these right-wing, corporate shills aren't our daddy's Republicans. They figure they've got carte blanche to go as far right as they can possibly imagine (and beyond), and are gettin' it while the gettin's good.

Don't pay Raptor any attention; he doesn't join conversations or answer questions, he just spouts party line.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, August 21, 2011 5:38 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Nah, any and ALL businesses whose bottom line is affected by any kind of regulation, not just coal, is the answer (with the backing of the Kochs). Did you catch my thread on their latest battle with regulation? The right hates anything that gets in the way of profits...you know, like not polluting with their waste, paying the money to ensure oil rigs are safe, not being able to drill whereEVER they want to, minor stuff like that.

And yes, it was predicted a while ago that the EPA would be the next target. The Republicans you speak of were our daddy's Republicans. Just as today's Tea Party isn't Ron Paul's Tea Party, these right-wing, corporate shills aren't our daddy's Republicans. They figure they've got carte blanche to go as far right as they can possibly imagine (and beyond), and are gettin' it while the gettin's good.

I missed your thread - I'll definitely look for it. I guess I can't imagine how the Reps and their handlers (Kochs etc) think they can get away with such a self-serving message that serves so few >IN THIS DAY AND AGE< of easy access to so much information. Even the laziest, busiest voter can stumble upon contrary info. In the old days of newsprint, sure, that made sense. But now? It's so weak to see them try something so obvious, embarrassing even, that I almost can't believe that's it.

BTW - I welcome hearing what Auraptor has to say.

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Monday, August 22, 2011 1:54 AM

Simple: Kill the people.

In order to kill the people, you need to poison the Earth. Merchants of Death have decided the EPA is in their way.

This isn't reform, this is about attacking America. It's terrorism, plain and simple. The fossil fuel industry is synthesizing one trillion gallons of chemical weapons which they are using to destroy the country and kill all the people. This is the agenda. There is no profit. No one makes money by pouring chemicals into the Earth here, it's extraneous to the industry. It serves one purpose: To kill Americans.

It's that simple. And effective. More effective than striking America with a nuclear weapon.

Already, more explosives have been dropped on America by this so called "industry" then were dropped on Iraq and Afghanistan. Now they've already hit the US with a million times the amount of chemical weapons that Saddam Hussein had, and I concede all of Rap's claims of Iraqi WMDs.

The BP oil "spill" was a test run of a chemical weapons attack on the USA by terrorists.

Auraptor,

I know which side I'm on, but which side are you on?

When mountaintop removal came up, IIRC, you were appalled. Now America is under the largest terrorist attack ever conceived. You appear to be siding with the terrorists. I don't think you hate America, but I have to ask: Do they not teach you anything about chemical warfare at military intelligence?

The purpose of getting rid of the EPA is not "reform" - that's idiotic.

The purpose is that the EPA is one of the forces defending America. The terrorists want to attack America. Ergo, they are disarming our defenses, just like they did in 9.11.

The problem is that the terrorists are cleverer than you think, and more insidious. Who they are isn't the issue, I don't know who they are. But how they operate is very simple:

They operate however they damn well can.

Any terrorist can declare themselves anything they want.

You can say "I'm an energy company" or "I'm a tea party candidate" even if you're nothing of the kind.

Do you really think America's enemies are so dumb that every time they attack they're going to say "I'm an Islamic Jihadist" ? - no, for real now, if you look into some of these attacks in the ME, a lot of these guys just said "I'm a jihadist" directly before attacking. Before that, who knows what they were.

Because people can relabel themselves however they want whenever they want. I can go over right now and relogon to FFF and set up an account as a right wing republican, or as a far left democrat, and start spouting whatever I want. If I have lots of resources, I can do the same on a much larger scale.

Your country is under attack and you are not defending it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, August 22, 2011 3:52 AM

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Sounds outrageous but I know you are serious. So given that, are you saying that these candidates and FOX are knowing accomplices in this plan to kill Americans? Or just following orders?

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Monday, August 22, 2011 5:17 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

It IS outrageous, and the only "conspiracy" at work is the GOP and corporate interests. It's business interests, and the blatantly illegal actions under the "Bush EPA", not some kind of terrorist, responsible for the attack on the the Obama EPA. First off, the GOP has had it in their sights for decades, essentially since not long after it began. Secondly, regulations get in the way of making the most bucks the fastest and if you hadn't noticed, corporate interests are ALWAYS against regulation of any kind. Lastly, the Obama EPA is trying to undo illegal acts which went through the courts and were JUDGED illegal during the Bush Administration, which Bush delayed and ignored until he was out. Remember the kerfullfle of what the Bush EPA was doing when it came to BP? Extrapolate that throughout the EPA under Bush at that time.

Pundits were already saying it before it even began, that now that they'd started the "war" against abortion, unions, government workers, etc., the EPA would be next on their list. If you look back at Bush's Presidency, you'll see that they already made a "beachhead", a pretty good one at that The "Bush EPA" was unquestionably an oxymoron, and Obama is trying to undo the damage, as he is legally bound to, so of course the GOP is fighting:

Quote:
In April 2008, the Bush EPA released a 20-page spreadsheet [PDF] of 94 EPA rules or actions under just the Clean Air Act that had been challenged in court until that point during the Bush administration.

As of August 2011, 37 of those cases have been decided by a court, and in nearly two-thirds of those cases (23), the courts overturned the Bush EPA rules. (The remaining 57 cases have either settled, been voluntarily dismissed, voluntarily remanded, or are still pending in court.)

In 15 of those 23 adverse rulings, the courts found that the Bush EPA had contradicted or disregarded the plain language of the Clean Air Act. This is the worst way for EPA to lose a federal environmental lawsuit, because it reflects a court’s judgment that the agency defied the plain instructions of the law.

Public health and environmental groups were the prevailing parties in 18 of those 23 Clean Air Act rulings against the Bush EPA. These groups prevailed in 13 of the 15 “plain language” court decisions. EPA lost this startling number of Clean Air Act cases because the Bush administration had adopted unlawful regulations that benefited polluting industries at the expense of human health and the environment, despite unambiguous statutory directives requiring otherwise. This was truly out-of-control behavior.

….

When the Obama administration took office in January 2009, it inherited the legal obligation to respond to court orders in not just these 23 Clean Air Act cases, but also in numerous other losing cases under other environmental statutes that EPA administers. The current administration inherited the responsibility to fix a decade-long mess consciously created by the Bush administration and industry supporters out of a shared ideological-economic agenda to violate environmental laws and weaken public health safeguards.

It is striking how thoroughly today’s fiercest EPA critics ignore this history and its implications. Conservative politicians like the House members quoted above, pundits like the Wall Street Journal editorial board, and industry lobbyists ignore this unprecedented wave of Bush administration lawbreaking that the Obama EPA now must rectify. http://www.grist.org/politics/2011-08-08-gop-attacks-the-epa-for-doing
-its-job long as Bush had control of the EPA, you didn't hear anything from them, as he was doing an excellent job of UNdoing everything the EPA stood for. Now that the Obama administration is trying to rectify those illegal acts, the GOP will fight them tooth and nail. Wanna hear what they have to say about it?
Quote:
"[T]he scariest agency in the federal government is the EPA ... an agency that has lost its bearings." -- Rep. Mike Simpson (R-Idaho)

"[T]he epitome of the continued and damaging regulatory overreach of this Administration." -- Rep. Harold Rogers (R-Ky.)

"EPA's regulatory jihad" -- Rep. John L. Mica (R-Fla.)

"The out-of-control regulation authority" -- Rep. Shelley Moore Capito (R-W.Va.)
Similar statements from House or Senate Republicans were notably absent during the prior Republican administration. This despite the fact that federal courts found the Bush administration EPA to have violated federal environmental laws repeatedly and egregiously. Of COURSE it's not "reform", it's predictable behavior. One doesn't need to see conspiracies everywhere to explain that one. And of COURSE there are profits in de-regulation, it's ridiculous to say there aren't. Just look how much money BP saved by not having to abide by EPA standards! It is the reason corporate powers don't want the EPA around; producing your product is always cheaper without having to abide by regulation, having to deal with fines (tho' they don't mind that as much), etc. The article I cited covers it really well, and there's much more there.
Quote:
These adverse court rulings occurred primarily in the Bush administration's second term, because it took this long for unlawful, deregulatory regulations issued during the first term to wind their way through the courts. When federal courts returned these unlawful regulations to EPA for correction, the Bush administration then failed to repromulgate these "remanded" rules before leaving office.

sometimes the failure was rooted in the same ideological defiance that had resulted in the original court rulings against EPA. A good example of this is the April 2007 Supreme Court ruling in Massachusetts vs. EPA that carbon dioxide is a pollutant under the Clean Air Act; the Bush administration ran the clock out for the last two years of its second term, refusing to respond to the Supreme Court's remand.

When the Obama administration took office in January 2009, it inherited the legal obligation to respond to court orders in not just these 23 Clean Air Act cases, but also in numerous other losing cases under other environmental statutes that EPA administers. The current administration inherited the responsibility to fix a decade-long mess consciously created by the Bush administration and industry supporters out of a shared ideological-economic agenda to violate environmental laws and weaken public health safeguards.

Worse, these anti-EPA critics show no evident regard for the massive health toll to the American people -- the tens of thousands of deaths, tens of thousands of heart attacks, hundreds of thousands of asthma attacks and other diseases -- that resulted from this campaign of delay and law-breaking by the prior administration.
It goes back to the Clinton Administration, by the way, too, tho' not in NEARLY the quantity.

And for their part, today's industry critics of EPA not only supported the Bush administration's law-breaking -- by intervening on the administration's behalf in virtually every lawsuit in which the courts found inadequate standards to have violated the Clean Air Act -- some of these industry groups actively facilitated the Bush administration's law-breaking ( http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0521-05.htm; "EPA Relied on Industry for Plywood Plant Pollution Rule"), by supplying EPA political appointees with the bogus legal theories that the Bush appointees adopted over the objections of career EPA staff and attorneys. (It is surely the case that the expert career attorneys in EPA's Office of General Counsel had advised Bush political appointees in advance that some or many of these rules faced very high legal risks or were indefensible on precisely the grounds for which the rules were subsequently invalidated.)

As to your queries about the Koch Brothers article, it's at http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=49431, titled "Here Come the Kochs Again". It's just one example...oh, and by the way, check out Rick Perry's record re: the EPA in Texas for some eye-opening horrors!

The most obvious answer, in this case at least, is the right one.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, August 22, 2011 5:29 AM

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Thanks Niki - that to me is THE war we are engaged in, not some shadow group trying to kill us all, just the super rich trying to grab more power and protect their wealth even more. It's what they do, it's what's made them who they are, so no one should be surprised. I am just shocked that so many of the Rep candidates think we don't see that or are too gullible to question them with the wealth of revealing information available. I think the serious question is whether Knowing the Truth is enough to stop them, and what are our options? Protest votes mean nothing in the end - who ever gets in could care less.

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Monday, August 22, 2011 6:46 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well, to an extent that's true, certainly. But Obama HAS made it part of his mission to undo the environmental damage caused by the Bush EPA and to follow through on the courts' judgments, and he's making strides in that direction. Can't speak to whether his reasons are legit or just politics (or something else), but it's a start in the right direction.

And yes, given what everyone knows by now are my priorities, obviously I agree that it is, in my opinion, one of if not THE biggest threats facing us and the world today and should be a major priority.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, August 22, 2011 11:30 AM

pizmo, I was snarking rap.

There is no mono conspiracy. Conspiracy is a model that works, and so people will reinvent it forever.

The merchants of death exist, and they worry me. A few others worry me as well. The greedmongers are harmless by themselves, it's only when they're manipulated that they're a danger.

FOX NEWS is a traffic monger. They manipulate influence, which they then sell, in this case, to the greedmongers. They are dangerous in chain reaction here.

The powermongers, the fascist police state, they're in tnis game to: they would like to control our supply to water, now that they control our supply to oil and healthcare. They also want to control food, but water is more powerful, you can only survive three days without it.

Even Powermongers and fascist overlords may not know that merchants of death are there.

Now, if you really understand this, then we have something to talk about. I know four people on the forum who really get this, and I have them to thank for me getting it at all.

If you disagree, or "don't get it" but are willing to try, I have one seed of doubt to feed you first:

If TPTB own the printing press which mints the bills and issues the currency of the world, what purpose could they possibly have for profit?

Think about it. Keep thinking until it stops making sense. Money is a means to an end. No logical flow will lead you to the conclusion that it is an end in itself.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, August 22, 2011 3:09 PM

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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If TPTB own the printing press which mints the bills and issues the currency of the world, what purpose could they possibly have for profit?

Hokay Riddler, riddle me this: what purpose could they possibly have for mass Death? Aliens in human form? Blood sucking Fangers?

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Monday, August 22, 2011 4:43 PM

To propagate your own genetic line by eliminating the competition.

That would be why there is genocide, and war, and weapons, and violence, or why men evolved to be strong, to fight off other men, in short, the one of the cornerstones of evolution.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:12 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

To propagate your own genetic line by eliminating the competition.

That would be why there is genocide, and war, and weapons, and violence, or why men evolved to be strong, to fight off other men, in short, the one of the cornerstones of evolution.

So, Evolution = Bad?

Curious - who's genetic line is the culprit here?

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

So, Evolution = Bad?

Idiocy = good?

I'm sorry, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not applying any logic to the connections above.

I give up.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:31 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:

So, Evolution = Bad?

Idiocy = good?

I'm sorry, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not applying any logic to the connections above.

I give up.

Your logic = idiocy?

And you are just rambling for the sake of attention. Give up, you always do.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 7:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'd like an answer to that question, too: "who's genetic line is the culprit here?"

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:11 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm going to step away from the genetics here, and say that I feel we need the EPA, are they always perfect? Of course not, but its way better, things are cleaner now, than it was before they came along. Dirty rivers are cleaner than they were in, say, the 70s. Loggers replant more etc. I think that more needs to be done to improve things and maybe the EPA doesn't always go about it the perfect way, but they do something which is more than I can say for this country before they were invented.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:30 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I'm not saying DT is right here, but he's not all wrong, either.

According to the powers that give the GOP its marching orders, regulations are "job killing". Ergo, if a thing is viewed as being job-killing, it's necessarily bad. And in the simple us-v-them, black-v-white thinking of the modern neo-conservative, if it is viewed as being anti-jobs, then anything OPPOSITE that must necessarily be PRO-jobs.

So, if regulations and regulatory agencies are killing jobs, then the way to bring jobs to life is to kill the regulations and the agencies.

It's not that they actively want to KILL people; it's just that in the conservative view, attacking everything you view as evil - whether it be Iraq or the EPA - is justifiable and right, and everyone who dies as a direct or indirect result of that attack is nothing more than "collateral damage".

So as I said, they aren't TRYING to kill people; they just don't give two shits that people will die as a result of their actions.

In the end, they truly, deeply, unfailingly love money far more than they love humanity and life.

But, as the Cree Indians put it,

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 3:41 PM

Quote:
Posted by DreamTrove:

This isn't reform, this is about attacking America. It's terrorism, plain and simple. The fossil fuel industry is synthesizing one trillion gallons of chemical weapons which they are using to destroy the country and kill all the people. This is the agenda. There is no profit. No one makes money by pouring chemicals into the Earth here, it's extraneous to the industry. It serves one purpose: To kill Americans.

It's that simple. And effective. More effective than striking America with a nuclear weapon.

Already, more explosives have been dropped on America by this so called "industry" then were dropped on Iraq and Afghanistan. Now they've already hit the US with a million times the amount of chemical weapons that Saddam Hussein had, and I concede all of Rap's claims of Iraqi WMDs.

See, I think you're looking at the wrong end of this thing.

The fracking fluids are basically made of up every evil thing that sloughs off as a by-product of the refining processes. It is classified as toxic waste by any rational definition of the term. And as such, petroleum companies - or "energy companies" as they like to be called this year, since "petroleum" brings up all those nasty images of oil spills and such - are responsible for disposing of it properly.

Or they would be, if they weren't able to get the government to allow them to use pretty much ANYTHING as fracking fluids ("proprietary blends" means you can't even ask, and they don't have to tell), and rather than PAY to dispose of toxic waste, you jam it down a hole under pressure to release natural gas which you then SELL. So you made money refining petroleum products, but you also made metric tons of toxic sludge (I'd bet mine tailings can be "fracking fluids", too!) which you must now get rid of, so you get rid of it NOT by paying money to have it dealt with ethically, but by flushing it down the water table to force gas out of the ground, which you then turn around and sell. You net two times to sell your goods, and no times to pay to dispose of your poisonous runoff, for a net profit of 3X.

Is it any wonder energy companies can print money faster than the federal reserve?

Instead of thinking about it as a direct attack on the U.S., DT, think of it as an incidental one. It's more an "I don't really care what happens next week, because my bonus check will have cleared my Swiss bank by then" kind of afterthought attack. It's not that they meant to kill the water, the soil, and the ecosystem; it's just that they thought they'd be gone before the bills came due.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:30 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This reasoning is rational.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 6:11 PM

Anthony,

Thanks, but I'm afraid it's cold comfort under the circumstances. I would sincerely like to HOPE that both DT and I are very wrong on this, but the pieces are falling into place rather too easily, it seems. :(

And I'm not sure being inadvertently killed by evil actions is really any better than being killed by PLANNED evil actions.

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Tuesday, August 23, 2011 8:23 PM

Mike

I considered that angle, but looking into it what I found was that while you have a point: "industrial byproducts are being added to fracking fluid as a means of getting rid of them" it doesn't seem that this matches the scale and scope of what's going on here.

I can't find any reference to the industry either spinning or CFCs or haloalkanes, or spinning off the billions of gallons being used here. It does seem to me that the WMDs in this case are being intentionally synthesized for the purpose of adding them to the fluid.

I don't want to say "source it or surrender" but I am genuinely interested if this is the case, if you have anything on the quantity and toxicity of byproducts that would lead to this conclusion. It's certainly a logical one, OTOH, you have to consider that all three fracking major backers, BP capital, Bechtel and Halliburton, are heavily invested in water monetization schemes, so there's a 4x for the money. Obviously, these guys are cheap bastards, so even if they wanted to intentionally poison the water supply, they would go with toxins they had on hand if they had them.

I also wonder if the US govt's plans to get rid of its own CFC based chemical WMD stockpiles, if this is how they decided to do that: By using them on America.

I was, of course, snarking Rap, but I'm also serious: If he sees his job as defending America, then America is right now under attack, and he's not defending it, which makes him useless, and another piece of excessive govt. spending which could be cut.

I'm quite serious about the terrorism. This is a threat, just like on 9.11 we were attacked by terrorists, I don't think there's a single dissenter on that, we just happen to disagree on who those terrorists were.

MTR and horizontal hydraulic fracturing are forms of attack, they're actual bombings of america, and these CFCs are WMDs, the kill people, and are banned from use in warfare for that reason. The military actually keeps TCE and DCM on hand as "industrial cleaning agents" instead of non-toxic ones, a fact which kills more soldiers than the enemy. You know, or at least Frem does, that the *reason* they do this is so they they will always have chemical weapons on hand in case they want to throw all the rules of engagement in the trash if they actually need to win instead of just running a constant grinding war for economic and political purposes.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:34 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

To propagate your own genetic line by eliminating the competition.

That would be why there is genocide, and war, and weapons, and violence, or why men evolved to be strong, to fight off other men, in short, the one of the cornerstones of evolution.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:45 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko: but by flushing it down the water table to force gas out of the ground,

It should be noted that the fracking fluids are not being pumped into the water table, but well below it. Water wells are normally around a few hundred to maybe 3000 feet deep. Gas wells are in the order of 5000 to 6000 feet deep.

It should also noted that deep well injection has been used to dispose of waste materials since the 50's.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DT:

Hundreds Arrested (Including Me) in DC: The Protest Against the Keystone XL Pipeline and Why the Uproar
Kate Follot

Quote:
I'm just a person who is passionate about helping breech the gap between the public and real life events, especially internationally.

Ending only September the 3rd, a group is planned to protest every day for two weeks, and more than 2100 people have signed up. Already, an estimated 222 people have been arrested, 65 on Saturday, 45 on Sunday, 52 on Monday and 60 on Tuesday, including Canadian actors Margot Kidder (best known as Lois Lane in four of the original Superman movies) and Tantoo Cardinal (indigenous actor best known for her roles in Legends of the Fall, Dances with Wolves, and Smoke Signals).

Arrestees whose ID stated they resided in DC were released after paying a $100 fine while 55 other participants from last Saturday’s demonstration were kept in jail for two nights before having all charges dropped and being released. On Tuesday afternoon, they were greeted with food and drink outside the Superior Court of the District of Columbia Moultrie Courthouse by a group of supporters.... {more}

http://planetsave.com/2011/08/24/hundreds-arrested-including-me-in-dc-
the-protest-against-the-keystone-xl-pipeline-and-why-the-uproar/

Of course, you will not find this covered by the major media.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

NICK I took... oh, less than three seconds... to type "deep well problems" into google, the very first citation from the Journal of Water Pollution Control (1977... not a new problem!) said

Quote:
The growing use of deep wells for disposal of wastes seems to suggest that the earth has an enormous capacity to store liquids. This, unfortunately, is not true: The earth actually contains few empty spaces and liquids can only be accommodated by compressing or displacing existing fluids or deforming the surrounding strata. Nearly three-quarters {Prolly more now- Signy} of the existing wells in the US operate at pressures greater than gravity flow. The possible consequences of high pressure injection include the fracturing of geologic strata, migration of wastes along existing faults and fractures, rupture of rock formations many miles away and movement of waste up the well casing, resulting in the aquifer contamination, and the triggering of seismic activity.

Stuff like this happens all the time... sometimes catastrophically like the BP well blowout, sometimes little by little. Deep well injection- like (ahem!) nuclear power is not a 100% safe, foolproof technology. You have to think about the consequences of failure, because failure is part of the real world.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko: but by flushing it down the water table to force gas out of the ground,

It should be noted that the fracking fluids are not being pumped into the water table, but well below it. Water wells are normally around a few hundred to maybe 3000 feet deep. Gas wells are in the order of 5000 to 6000 feet deep.

It should also be noted that fracking fluids aren't SUPPOSED to be pumped into the water table, and yet they keep showing up in the water. It's probably coincidence, though. Maybe the fracking tapped into a heretofor unknown vein of chlorofluorocarbons and dioxyns...

Thing is, you (and the people doing the actual fracking) don't really know HOW and WHERE the rock is going to fracture, or where the fluids will go once the rock DOES fracture.

Quote:

It should also noted that deep well injection has been used to dispose of waste materials since the 50's.

Heck, they used to use depleted uranium in Fiesta Ware dishes, too, but I'm sure it's okay. The 50s were that quaint time when we were actually told that dying of radiation sickness was really not a bad way to go, as it was actually quite painless.

Sorry, but arguing from a point of view that "that's the way it was done in the 50s" doesn't really fly very well with me. Heck, why not have a cigarette and a shot of whiskey before your commute, just to calm your nerves?

Not picking a fight, Nick - just pointing out what I see as a few flaws in your reasoning.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:45 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
NICK I took... oh, less than three seconds... to type "deep well problems" into google, the very first citation from the Journal of Water Pollution Control (1977... not a new problem!) said
Quote:
The growing use of deep wells for disposal of wastes seems to suggest that the earth has an enormous capacity to store liquids. This, unfortunately, is not true: The earth actually contains few empty spaces and liquids can only be accommodated by compressing or displacing existing fluids or deforming the surrounding strata. Nearly three-quarters {Prolly more now- Signy} of the existing wells in the US operate at pressures greater than gravity flow. The possible consequences of high pressure injection include the fracturing of geologic strata, migration of wastes along existing faults and fractures, rupture of rock formations many miles away and movement of waste up the well casing, resulting in the aquifer contamination, and the triggering of seismic activity.
Stuff like this happens all the time... sometimes catastrophically like the BP well blowout, sometimes little by little. Deep well injection- like (ahem!) nuclear power is not a 100% safe, foolproof technology. You have to think about the consequences of failure, because failure is part of the real world.

I never claimed they where 100% safe, or that they where a good idea. Just stated that have been used for quite some time.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:51 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It should also be noted that fracking fluids aren't SUPPOSED to be pumped into the water table, and yet they keep showing up in the water. It's probably coincidence, though. Maybe the fracking tapped into a heretofor unknown vein of chlorofluorocarbons and dioxyns...

Thing is, you (and the people doing the actual fracking) don't really know HOW and WHERE the rock is going to fracture, or where the fluids will go once the rock DOES fracture.

Your right they do show up in water, but not just places where fracking is going on. Most of these chemicals have been used for years in other industries.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Heck, they used to use depleted uranium in Fiesta Ware dishes, too, but I'm sure it's okay. The 50s were that quaint time when we were actually told that dying of radiation sickness was really not a bad way to go, as it was actually quite painless.

Sorry, but arguing from a point of view that "that's the way it was done in the 50s" doesn't really fly very well with me. Heck, why not have a cigarette and a shot of whiskey before your commute, just to calm your nerves?

Not picking a fight, Nick - just pointing out what I see as a few flaws in your reasoning.

The point was that pumping chemicals into the ground is not new. Is it a good idea, no. We are all not dead or dying yet. Hell the vast majority of ground water is not contaminated. So while fracking may not be a good idea it is not going to be the end of everything.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko: but by flushing it down the water table to force gas out of the ground,

It should be noted that the fracking fluids are not being pumped into the water table, but well below it. Water wells are normally around a few hundred to maybe 3000 feet deep. Gas wells are in the order of 5000 to 6000 feet deep.

It should also noted that deep well injection has been used to dispose of waste materials since the 50's.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

I can't tell if this is ignorance or propaganda.

2/3 of that water comes back up to the surface where it either splashes back to a surface pool, is sent to a water treatment plant or is spread on the roads as salt. Then it enters the groundwater.

Oh, and what Sig said, which I just saw. The nature of geology, you know.

Sig, thanks for the link. Josh Fox is putting himself in a Julian Assange level of danger. He's a hero, and I think we have to recognize that before they get him, not just after.

Quote:
Originally posted by KWICKO:

Maybe the fracking tapped into a heretofor unknown vein of chlorofluorocarbons and dioxyns

This cracked me up. After just listening to another Josh Fox clip Sig just posted, I'm thinking it works especially well if delivered in the total deadpan.

Quote:
Originally posted by M52NICKERSON:

It should also noted that deep well injection has been used to dispose of waste materials since the 50's.

Ooh, and industry favorite. No, it hasn't, that's actually a lie, just an ordinary one. Water has been used to displace fossil fuels since the 50s, but no one was pumping a million gallons of chemical WMDs into the bedrock of America's agricultural heartland until the Halliburton loophole of 2005 made it legal for them to do so.

But, Mike has a point: They used to tell women to paint their faces with lead paint so they would look good on their way to the watch factory where they would lick the radium so as to stick it on the watches, and make them glow in the dark. Of course, they did it then, so I'm sure it's safe.

BTW, for those who do not recognize it, the excuse flags Nick as an industry spokesman, as no one else uses that line.

Quote:
We are all not dead or dying yet.

This is either a clever or just unfortunate word ordering.

No, flat out no. All of us are not "not dead or dying." Many of us are dead, and many of us are dying. That's why they're adding 5 floors to the local cancer center. We've been told we live on a primary brain cancer hotspot. A waitress at the local soda fountain just died of it. This is becoming amazingly common for a one in a million condition. I've now known as many people to die of fracking contamination as from war, gang violence, suicide and AIDS. the only thing it hasn't displaced is car crashes, and perhaps what we might call old age. Also, medical malpractice, which is still way up there.

So, it's only been running a few years, and already we're dying.

Pizmo,

No, everyone is not in on it. But if there weren't a willful hand of evil in it, then the lawsuit-conscious businessmen would curb the damage to avoid the liability.

I think you have to believe in the existence of evil in order to understand this one. Greed alone does not explain it.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 7:49 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
2/3 of that water comes back up to the surface where it either splashes back to a surface pool, is sent to a water treatment plant or is spread on the roads as salt. Then it enters the groundwater.

...and the treatment plants would be where chemicals would be removed or made inert.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Ooh, and industry favorite. No, it hasn't, that's actually a lie, just an ordinary one. Water has been used to displace fossil fuels since the 50s, but no one was pumping a million gallons of chemical WMDs into the bedrock of America's agricultural heartland until the Halliburton loophole of 2005 made it legal for them to do so.

Water to displace fossil fuels is not deep well injection to get ride of waste, which has indeed been around for some time.
http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/history.cfm

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
BTW, for those who do not recognize it, the excuse flags Nick as an industry spokesman, as no one else uses that line.

Yes, because industry is so worried they sent me to Firefly.net to cover up the truth!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
No, flat out no. All of us are not "not dead or dying." Many of us are dead, and many of us are dying. That's why they're adding 5 floors to the local cancer center. We've been told we live on a primary brain cancer hotspot. A waitress at the local soda fountain just died of it. This is becoming amazingly common for a one in a million condition. I've now known as many people to die of fracking contamination as from war, gang violence, suicide and AIDS. the only thing it hasn't displaced is car crashes, and perhaps what we might call old age. Also, medical malpractice, which is still way up there.

See, it far more likley that you are making shit up then it is that I'm a industy plant.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 9:14 AM

That was a snark intended to imply that you were swallowing the company line, and now regurgitating it.

This is something regulators do a lot. And yes, it's worth it to industry to go to regulators and feed them nonsense so that they will spew it. Industry doesn't care where they spew it. They don't care where anything gets spewed.

IIRC, this was a thread on the EPA, and I can tell you that, while I admit they do not agree with me on the issue of a possible Blue Gold* conspiracy, they do think that there is no gas. The feeling at the agency seems to concur with the NYT piece that fracking is a ponzi scheme and they are suspicious of yield claims. They are also seriously concerned about the groundwater and biosphere contamination with CFC and other additive toxins. Far more concerned than you are posting here, and a good number of those are industry people.

* the idea that water monetization firms like BP capital, Bechtel, and Halliburton, are pouring money into the fracking business because they see profit from another channel.

So, sure, I may see holocaust-like conspiracies where they don't exist, but much better that someone see them and herald the possibility that there is a stealth terrorist attack when it's not there then that no one be allowed to dare suggest such a thing if that is the case that this is what is happening.

I guess, IOW, consider me to be the anti-pirate news. I'll occasionally say "It's the Nazis" just in case it is.

I would snark you for throwing out the baby with the bathwater by rejecting everything I say just because you disagree with some of it, but so far, it looks to me like you've rejected everything everyone has said on the board thus far. So, at least it's not personal

ETA: The point was the inject of the chemicals themselves, not to displace them.

Also, there's a fundamental logical flaw in the belief that water treatment by vaporizing volatiles or diluting solutes (legally 10:1 is sufficient) has any serious mitigating effect on the end macro contamination.

Specifically, doctors say my sister was likely not poisoned by drinking the affected water, but by inhaling the fumes that evaporated from it, containing light weight CFCs such as TCE.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:00 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
So, sure, I may see holocaust-like conspiracies where they don't exist, but much better that someone see them and herald the possibility

Not as far as I'm concerned; when one is constantly seeing conspiracies, one is not living their life in my opinion; living in fear and seeing conspiracies everywhere (which you do seem to do) is not living. I think psychologists would find you an example of what they have discovered in holocaust-survivor children:

Quote:
Evidence shows that the children of Holocaust survivors, referred to as the “Second Generation”, can be deeply affected – both negatively and positively -- by the horrific events their parents experienced. The intergenerational transmission of trauma is so strong that Holocaust-related influences can even be seen in the “Third Generation”, children of the children of survivors.

According to studies, the long-term effects of the Holocaust on the children of survivors suggest a "psychological profile." Their parents’ suffering may have affected their upbringing, personal relationships and perspective on life. Eva Fogelman, a psychologist who treats Holocaust survivors and their children, suggests a second generation 'complex' characterized by processes that affect identity, self-esteem, interpersonal interactions and worldview. http://judaism.about.com/od/holocaust/a/hol_gens.htm commonalities Gorko sees in children of survivors are feelings of being separate or “different” from the rest of the world; having an “escape plan” and security issues... http://www.chron.com/life/houston-belief/article/Holocaust-survivors-t
rauma-filters-through-1702341.php not mentioned it before and won't again, and I have no right to judge you. I could also be totally wrong. I've just seen a pattern in your thinking which gravitates to conspiracies about so many things, it made me wonder. Some of your bliefs and opinions are so far out in left field, I don't know where they could possibly come from. And all this IS my HUMBLE opinion...I've just not been able to figure out where else some of the stuff you believe--and in some cases think EVERYONE believes--could possibly originate

I sincerely hope your sister makes a full recovery, by the way. I just think what she experiences and what you see around you is not necessarily indicative of the wider world. Nor do I deny the existence of such pollution; I would be the last person on earth to do so, given my priorities. I just don't think it's a "conspiracy", except insofar as there's certainly a "conspiracy" to do away with regulation, which I believe inhibits maximizing profit.
Quote:
if there weren't a willful hand of evil in it, then the lawsuit-conscious businessmen would curb the damage to avoid the liability... I think you have to believe in the existence of evil in order to understand this one. Greed alone does not explain it.
Certainly greed explains it; liability isn't a deterrent. Surely you've heard of all the times the corporation has made more money off what they do than any "fine", to the point where they figure that into the equation--how many people might sue versus how much profit can be made. Liability can be hidden (a normal human failing), can be delayed (and corporations know just how to do so), avoided (with enough money you can hire great attorneys) and can be calculated (there's a word for just that about people in insurance companies); that you need to believe in "the existence of evil" is something that's personal to YOU, not everyone.
Quote:
it looks to me like you've rejected everything everyone has said on the board thus far
I don't know how you come to that, as I've seen no such thing on the board as a whole.
Quote:
BTW, for those who do not recognize it, the excuse flags Nick as an industry spokesman, as no one else uses that line.
Another which is too far out to believe, as a snark it's a poor one at best, and given your focus on conspiracies, some would think you were being quite serious. You so often say "everyone know" or some variation of that about things which NOBODY believes, that I can't help wondering how you come to some things you consider fact.

I've called you on it (your wild theories stated as fact); I will continue to call you on it. What you theorize, opine or believe is not necessarily what is real or what others believe, pure and simple.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:27 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
That was a snark intended to imply that you were swallowing the company line, and now regurgitating it.

This is something regulators do a lot. And yes, it's worth it to industry to go to regulators and feed them nonsense so that they will spew it. Industry doesn't care where they spew it. They don't care where anything gets spewed.

I get that sometimes. When people like you don't want to listen to reason and hear why some of your arguments are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
IIRC, this was a thread on the EPA, and I can tell you that, while I admit they do not agree with me on the issue of a possible Blue Gold* conspiracy, they do think that there is no gas. The feeling at the agency seems to concur with the NYT piece that fracking is a ponzi scheme and they are suspicious of yield claims. They are also seriously concerned about the groundwater and biosphere contamination with CFC and other additive toxins. Far more concerned than you are posting here, and a good number of those are industry people.

Really, well you can't tell that by the EPA website!

http://water.epa.gov/type/groundwater/uic/class2/hydraulicfracturing/i
ndex.cfm

You can even see in a past study of fracking the EPA found no evidence of ground water contamination, but as they should left the door open for more research.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
So, sure, I may see holocaust-like conspiracies where they don't exist, but much better that someone see them and herald the possibility that there is a stealth terrorist attack when it's not there then that no one be allowed to dare suggest such a thing if that is the case that this is what is happening.

I guess, IOW, consider me to be the anti-pirate news. I'll occasionally say "It's the Nazis" just in case it is.

I would read the story of Chicken Little if I where you.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I would snark you for throwing out the baby with the bathwater by rejecting everything I say just because you disagree with some of it, but so far, it looks to me like you've rejected everything everyone has said on the board thus far. So, at least it's not personal

Not everything, just the things that are not true, which has been a lot.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
ETA: The point was the inject of the chemicals themselves, not to displace them.

citation needed

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Also, there's a fundamental logical flaw in the belief that water treatment by vaporizing volatiles or diluting solutes (legally 10:1 is sufficient) has any serious mitigating effect on the end macro contamination.

No those are facts. Volatiles breakdown in the air. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp19.pdf Trichloroethylene has a half life of about in the air of about a week.

Also water treatment is more involved then diluting anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Specifically, doctors say my sister was likely not poisoned by drinking the affected water, but by inhaling the fumes that evaporated from it, containing light weight CFCs such as TCE.

Really, I would ask how he is coming to that conclusion since not many CFC have been definitely linked to cancer.

research and learn
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/index.asp

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:30 PM

I don't have to rely on the website, I know people in the EPA. Also, though the CFCs in question are labeled as carcinogens in your own link, I don't need to rely on govt. labeling, as I am in a scientific cancer research group.

Let me leave you with a little story. Years ago, after just completing my grad school prep in biochem, I felt pretty smart. I was sitting in a bar and talking to a guy, and telling him all I knew about nutrition. A friend of mine pulled me aside and said "That man that you're talking to just coached his team to his country's first ever gold medal in the olympics. You might want to shut up and listen." So, I took it to heart. A few weeks later I found myself seated next to a man sipping on Cappuccino and talking about chess. I'm very good at the game, and have a lot to say on it, but I remembered the words, and decided to shut up and listen. The man sitting across from me had a number of valuable tips to share, and though I did not recognize him, as I had never seen him, I had in fact read several articles by him, he was Gary Kasperov. I was very glad I'd quelled the impulse to talk and tell him what I know.

That is all I have to say.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

So while fracking may not be a good idea it is not going to be the end of everything.

Well, for those whom it kills, it rather WILL be the end of everything...

I don't think Nick's any kind of plant, industry, potted, or otherwise. I think he's seeing things from a different perspective, one that is more trusting of government and industry than mine, DT's, or Frem's, for instance. But I absolutely don't think Nick is arguing from a position of maliciousness.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:02 PM

MINCINGBEAST

I think a lot of the hostility towards the EPA is it's protective function. The EPA is like a condom. Condoms are no fun. Like a condom, the EPA comes between our sensitive bits and the free market. That's no fun. Hence, the EPA must be destroyed.

Also, the EPA is good for us, like broccoli. Things that are good for us are no fun, like broccoli. Therefore, devil take the EPA, and also the broccoli from my plate.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike

I considered that angle, but looking into it what I found was that while you have a point: "industrial byproducts are being added to fracking fluid as a means of getting rid of them" it doesn't seem that this matches the scale and scope of what's going on here.

I can't find any reference to the industry either spinning or CFCs or haloalkanes, or spinning off the billions of gallons being used here. It does seem to me that the WMDs in this case are being intentionally synthesized for the purpose of adding them to the fluid.

I don't want to say "source it or surrender" but I am genuinely interested if this is the case, if you have anything on the quantity and toxicity of byproducts that would lead to this conclusion. It's certainly a logical one, OTOH, you have to consider that all three fracking major backers, BP capital, Bechtel and Halliburton, are heavily invested in water monetization schemes, so there's a 4x for the money. Obviously, these guys are cheap bastards, so even if they wanted to intentionally poison the water supply, they would go with toxins they had on hand if they had them.

I don't have links to specific sources or cites; this is entirely my opinion on the matter, based on what I've been hearing from several different sources, none of whom seem to have made the link yet - government deregulation of fracking fluids, allowing industry to claim them as "proprietary" mixes so that they needn't disclose WHAT they're sending down the hole, and the knowledge that pretty much every refinery site in the nation is basically a Superfund site in the offing. It all starts to make sense when you start linking them, but then it gets even worse, with the increased efforts at tort reform aimed at limiting the maximum fiscal exposure of corporations in lawsuits, AND the Supreme Court's rulings in the recent WalMart and AT&T class-action suits which broke up the class action status of said suits and in effect may do away with such things completely in the near future.

So this is industry being told, "Do whatever you want; we don't care. And furthermore, if anyone ever tries to come after you, the courts are on your side, because you paid for them to be."

We are rapidly approaching the tipping point where the only recourse left to the victims of corporations will be violent action in the form of suicide attacks and car-bombs aimed at company headquarters. I don't condone it or cheer it, but I definitely see it coming. But let's just all pretend to be surprised when it starts happening, okay? ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I think a lot of the hostility towards the EPA is it's protective function. The EPA is like a condom. Condoms are no fun. Like a condom, the EPA comes between our sensitive bits and the free market. That's no fun. Hence, the EPA must be destroyed.

Also, the EPA is good for us, like broccoli. Things that are good for us are no fun, like broccoli. Therefore, devil take the EPA, and also the broccoli from my plate.

I like broccoli. I don't like condoms. Condoms are so unlike broccoli.

Apologies to Gandhi. ;)

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 3:47 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I know DT is notorious for seeing conspiracies in things, not as bad as PN but well known for it nonetheless. I think that in this case he has had a lot of personal and familial experiences with this issue and, though I'm not a conspiratorialist about most things, I can understand what he means. Do I agree with all he says? No, but do I agree that he has a few good points, that fracking is super dangerous and that the government and corporations don't really care about the everyman? Yes. Do I always agree with DT? No, he has some rather extreme views on things that don't square with my experiences in life, but just because we don't agree on some things doesn't mean I can't understand where he's coming from and believe him, at least a decent chunk of the way, on this.

DT, you told me that story once.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I UNQUESTIONABLY agree

Quote:
that fracking is super dangerous and that the government and corporations don't really care about the everyman

What's behind it is what I disagree with. With only one exception, I think I am the most pro-environmentalist here, and it would be pretty impossible to get me to disagree with how everything the EPA was created for is being screwed, trashed, and attacked by the right. It's that the logic of the reasons why oil companies and other corporations try to avoid restrictions that seems to me much more reasonable than that it's a global conspiracy bent on genocide.

Now, see, DT, I could have taken your story as a personal snark that I (and everyone else) should "shut up and listen" to the things you post...even see it as an attack or something. But I don't. While the intent MAY have been that, I see it as a good point, but one which doesn't apply to me. When you make a good, valid point, I agree with you--and you make quite a few. It's the ones that don't make sense with which I disagree.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:14 AM

Mike, you left out Kelo vs. the City of New London, the 2005 supreme court case that ruled that any corporation could seize any private property for corporate use by supplying the govt. with a prospectus showing that this would increase profits, even if the information on the prospectus was false.

Niki,

It was aimed at Nick, and I didn't mean shut up and listen to me, I meant that it's a life lesson that Nick might want to apply. I watched him talk over everyone else for a month before even responding to him. I mostly interjected because he was talking over Byte, who is a geologist, and he was lecturing her on geology, which I think she knows a bit more about than he does. I sort of assume that Nick is a student or recent grad, 'cause he has the air of that newly appointed king of the world to him. Reminds me of my somewhat former self. I was top of my class, I learned a lot of things and suddenly I was smart and I wanted to tell the world about it. Someone shoulda clopped me on the head right proper.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:26 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't have to rely on the website, I know people in the EPA. Also, though the CFCs in question are labeled as carcinogens in your own link, I don't need to rely on govt. labeling, as I am in a scientific cancer research group.

Here is that thing about the internet, people can, and do claim to be things they are not. So you can spare me personal stories and your pedigree unless you can prove them.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:08 AM

Nick,

I believe you when you say that you are a pool inspector.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:36 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Nick,

I believe you when you say that you are a pool inspector.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

I'm glad it shows you are paying attention....oh wait!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I humbly submit that this thread has widely deviated from its purpose, and is no longer serving to deepen the wisdom of mankind, nor foster goodwill between fellow humans.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:04 AM

DALEK!

Well, let us get back on track.

New York State is not waiting for the EPA and plans on impementing it's own regulations when it comes to Fracking.

http://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-environment-commissioner-ex
pects-little-from-epa-fracking-study/single

Perhaps the states are going to have to take a more active role in writing their own regulations and not rely on the EPA.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Well, let us get back on track.

New York State is not waiting for the EPA and plans on impementing it's own regulations when it comes to Fracking.

http://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-environment-commissioner-ex
pects-little-from-epa-fracking-study/single

Perhaps the states are going to have to take a more active role in writing their own regulations and not rely on the EPA.

He's a total tool. The NY DEC is much more corrupt than the EPA. They want to pretend that they've taken every precaution, but they're really chanting drill baby drill. I was at an local govt. meeting on this last night, and there were about 100 people there, about 10 pro-drilling, and the rest anti. I couldn't confirm that any of the pro-drillers were actually from our town.

Cuomo is another fracking pawn. I suspect it's going to take some more major action on our part.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:00 PM