REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A new era in U.S. foreign policy

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, August 26, 2011 08:10
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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I find this a MOST excellent analysis:
Quote:

Back in March, many neoconservatives in Washington were extremely dismissive of the way President Obama was handling the intervention in Libya. They argued that he was doing too little and acting too late – that his approach was too multilateral and lacked cohesiveness. They continuously criticized President Obama for, in the words of an anonymous White House advisor, "leading from behind."

But now that these critics are confronted with the success of the Libya operation, they are changing their tune and claiming paternity of the operation. They are further arguing that if their advice had been heeded, the intervention in Libya would have been swifter and even more successful. But the Libya intervention is so significant precisely because it did not follow the traditional pattern of U.S.-led interventions. Indeed, it launched a new era in U.S. foreign policy.
The United States decided that it was only going to intervene in Libya if it could establish several conditions:

1) A local group that was willing to fight and die for change; in other words, "indigenous capacity".

2) Locally recognized legitimacy in the form of the Arab League's request for intervention.

3) International legitimacy in the form of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973.

4) Genuine burden sharing with the British and French spelling out precisely how many sorties they would be willing to man and precisely what level of commitment they would be willing to provide.

It was only when all those conditions were fulfilled that the Obama Administration agreed to play a pivotal but supporting role in the Libya operation.

It is important to emphasize that even though it was a "supporting role," the U.S. was indispensable to the operation. Nobody else could have eliminated Gadhafi's air defenses – and, effectively, his air force - within three days. Without America, the operation in Libya could not have taken place. But the U.S. was also "supporting" in the sense that after these initial strikes, it moved into the background and asked its NATO partners to do the heavy lifting. Thereafter, the U.S. intervened only when it felt it needed to. All of this suggests a very different model for intervention, which I believe is a vast improvement over the old, expansive and expensive model.

The new model does two things:

First, it ensures that there's genuinely a local alliance committed to the same goals as the external coalition. This way, there is more legitimacy on the ground. And if there is anything Afghanistan and Iraq have taught us, it is that local legitimacy is key.

Second, this model ensures that there is genuine burden sharing so that the United States is not left owning the country as has happened so often in the past.

Compared to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Libya operation was a bargain. It cost the U.S. about $1 billion. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan collectively cost the U.S. $1.3 trillion. In other words, success in Libya could be achieved at less than one-tenth of one percent of the cost of the interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's not a bad model for the future.

Now there are critics of this approach on both the right and left. Some on the left – the great liberal internationalists – are horrified by the fact that people in Benghazi cheered for French President Nicolas Sarkozy. They think only President Obama's name should be on the lips of the liberated Libyans.But there is actually nothing wrong with a world in which the Europeans are also associated with the cause of freedom and liberty. It means that they will also be more willing to bear some of the burdens and pay some of the costs of intervention. And it means they are more likely to be involved in the difficult process of reconstruction.

The old model of American leadership - where we took all the decisions, bore all the burdens, paid all the costs and took all the glory – has to change. People in Washington are going to have to realize that when other countries step up to the plate, they too will naturally get some share of credit. It's more important that Libya be saved than that Washington is seen as the sole savior.

In the future, we will again have to follow this limited model of intervention. The United States is not going to have the kind of defense budget nor the national will to engage in a series of major military operations in countries that are, frankly, not vital to our national interests. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was very clear and he was right: Libya is not vital to our national interest. The point, however, was that the Libyan revolution was an important event in the context of the Arab Spring and that if we could be helpful, it would be of great benefit to Libya and to America.

The question before Libya was: Could such interventions be successful while keeping costs under control - both human and financial.

Today's answer is: Yes. http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/23/a-new-era-in-u-s-fo
reign-policy/?hpt=hp_t1


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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I will be very glad if the Libyans and the world remember us not at all in regards to this endeavor.

If all our future dalliances in warfare require this level of cooperation and support, then we will be in fewer conflicts, and that will also make us glad.

I would be gladder still if we would shut down our other ongoing wartime/peacekeeping operations.

I would very much like to imagine a decade of my life where the U.S. does not become embroiled in a conflict somewhere.

I do not feel that we need to be the world's policemen or even a superpower. In fact, I suspect our well-being would be greatly enhanced if we were neither.

I am quite content to be one prosperous nation among many, if we can just manage that much.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:51 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I would very much like to imagine a decade of my life where the U.S. does not become embroiled in a conflict somewhere.


The strategy in Libya was a scaled down version of the way we defeated the Taliban after 9/11. In that case we embedded US special forces with local northern Afgan anti-Taliban warlords and provided them with weapons and direct air support. The result was a quick collapse of the Taliban army.

In Libya we did not use advisors or special forces, we provided air cover but little air support, and we did not provide much in the way of weapons or equipment. While the result appears the same it took months rather then weeks to accomplish the goal. On the other hand it only cost us pennies on the dollar and no US casualties and no drawn out commitment.

My view is it was very successful. France and Hillary Clinton deserve a lot of praise. Obama did not do much, so he gets no credit.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, everything you said, in spades!

Ah, Hero, predictable to the last. So, if Obama taking a stance, and holding it against all his detractors, deserves no credit, then I guess he deserves no blame for any of the things that went wrong in the economy either, right? Good luck having your cake and eating it too.

And you actually believe we sent no supportive personnel or weapons? Wow. I hate to burst your bubble, but
Quote:

The Independent reports April 3 eye-witness accounts that "Military and diplomatic operatives from the US and Western Europe—usually described as experts, consultants and advisers—turned up in the rebel capital, Benghazi. http://ww4report.com/node/9740 United States, Britain and France have sent several hundred “defence advisors” to train and support the anti-Gadhafi forces in oil-rich Eastern Libya where “rebels armed groups” have apparently taken over.

According to an exclusive report confirmed by a Libyan diplomat in the region “the three Western states have landed their “special forces troops in Cyrinacia and are now setting up their bases and training centres” to reinforce the rebel forces who are resisting pro-Qaddafi forces in several adjoining areas.

A Libyan official who requested not to be identified said that the U.S. and British military gurus were sent on February 23 and 24 night through American and French warships and small naval boats off Libyan ports of Benghazi and Tobruk.

The Western forces are reportedly preparing to set-up training bases for local militias set-up by the rebel forces for an effective control of the oil-rich region and counter any push by pro- Qaddafi forces from Tripoli. http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=78009, "no boots on the ground" meant combat soldiers, I think few doubted we'd be sending NOBODY.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 2:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

While the result appears the same it took months rather then years to accomplish the goal. On the other hand it only cost us pennies on the dollar and no US casualties and no drawn out commitment.




Fixed that for ya. After all, the Taliban collapsed so quickly that nearly a decade later, we're still mired there fighting them.

Seems Obama's "scaled down" version works much, much, much better.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Side thought to this:
While I am absolutely not in favor of our so-called assistance bending them over via the IMF/WTO/whatever on a long-term basis...

I am not at all above the idea of billing them, at least in part, for our support.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

If the payment is fair and not eternal, I agree.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:00 PM

DREAMTROVE


The last thing we need is another country in the world founded in debt. I just hope we don't end up funding our new govt. in Libya in some long drawn out civil war like we are in Pakistan, or eternal conflicts with neighbors as we did with Saddam Hussein. I think if we can withdraw and not spend any more on it, we can call it a day.

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


DT, I'd go you one further. If we can get our military untangled from there, AND give limited humanitarian aid WITHOUT AGENDA OR STRINGS ATTACHED, we could gain a valuable ally, or at least a fair amount of respect in the region, simply by saying in effect, "We are here to help you, even if we might disagree with some of your choices."

Because in a void, others will step in to help. Al-Qaeda doesn't come in saying "We will give you food, but you'll have to agree to be suicide bombers first!" No, they come in, build houses, mosques, and schools, actually HELP THE PEOPLE, and gain their trust first - then some of the people will be gladly willing to lay down their lives to help, because they feel they owe a debt of gratitude to that group.

But we could have been there building schools, helping people, while still respecting their religion and their own cultural and national identity.

It's so much easier to deal with the terrorist you never created than to deal with the aftermath of the ones you DID create. All it takes is a modicum of foresight and a willingness to do the right thing. I understand both of those qualities are sorely lacking in America these days, though...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Side thought to this:
While I am absolutely not in favor of our so-called assistance bending them over via the IMF/WTO/whatever on a long-term basis...

I am not at all above the idea of billing them, at least in part, for our support.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



I wouldn't bill them; I'd simply ask that one day they repay the kindness if they can. And that repayment can take the form of cash, or cheap oil, or help in the region, or simply not interfering at times.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 5:40 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Side thought to this:
While I am absolutely not in favor of our so-called assistance bending them over via the IMF/WTO/whatever on a long-term basis...

I am not at all above the idea of billing them, at least in part, for our support.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.



I wouldn't bill them; I'd simply ask that one day they repay the kindness if they can. And that repayment can take the form of cash, or cheap oil, or help in the region, or simply not interfering at times.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill






Hello,



--Anthony



_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Aww, it's not that bad, hell, I operate in part off that premise myself, but I did kinda steal it from this guy.



-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:48 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

While the result appears the same it took months rather then weeks to accomplish the goal.

Only if you don't count the years of nation building and counter-insurgency that followed, that the USA was obliged to carry out.

Quote:

Obama did not do much, so he gets no credit.
You're missing the point: Obama gets credit for NOT DOING much. If Libya descends into sectarian/insurgency violence (I'm optimistic it won't happen) and NATO steps in, it will be the European allies asking for US troops to assist, not the other way round. Perhaps a military intervention led by America stirs your sense of national pride, but do you really think the bombing of a Muslim/Arab country being led and orchestrated by America is preferable?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well said, KPO.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:57 AM

DREAMTROVE


Mike

Whenever we try to help, we fuck it up. We're a better friend if we get out of their hair.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike

Whenever we try to help, we fuck it up. We're a better friend if we get out of their hair.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.




We fuck it up by pushing an agenda on people who not only don't share that agenda, but are adamantly OPPOSED TO IT. We actually CAN do better.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:42 PM

DREAMTROVE


We're human, we will push our agenda, whether we mean to or not. We would set up schools according to our own rules, instituting a system well known to be abusive and not conducive to education, but also laiden to the brim with our own social agenda.

If we did this, we'd think that we were helping, just like when we went into Africa and gave vaccinations against polio, whilst unknowingly spreading AIDS.

Even without any agenda, there is the issue that we are a fairly seriously failed state. Whatever we're doing here, it should not be duplicated. We subsist by importing goods and services on borrowed money, and yet everyone is in so much debt no one has any free time, so we all work pointless desk jobs that accomplish nothing as we get fat and sick, and we're ruled by a dictatorship masquerading as democracy. Even if you don't think it's *this* bad, I know you'll admit that it's bad.

The fact is that we claim it's our internet because it was our ideas back in 1969. Twenty years later, the world wide web was not spawned in America, but in Switzerland. 20 years after that, the bulk of traffic was in Asia. Asian companies make high tech products for Asian consumers, and even a cursory look at America shows that what does work here seems to overwhelmingly do so through our importation of immigrants from more functional societies than our own.

I vote we pack up, go home, and evolve passed our pre-industrial capital-state mindset. If we cannot do so, we are obsolete.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 8:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree we fuck things up when we try to "help", and I'd LIKE to think we can do better, but I'm not so sure anymore, given the repetition of our failures. We need to find new ways to help, not always militarily and with outside contractors only in it for profit, as well as agenda, but I don't believe in not helping at all.

Nonetheless, I don't think we're a failed state. An EVOLVING state, yes, and we're not evolving in the right direction yet, but there's always hope, and we remain better in many, many ways than many, many other countries. Who knows, maybe what's happening currently will be a big enough comeuppance to get us to evolve differently. I'm not giving up on us. And we'll never be "obsolete"...no country ever has been. They change, they're beaten, they cease being "empires", governments change, but they don't become obsolete. IRRELEVANT, certainly, and we may be headed that way...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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