Obama, This is Your Army - We Will Win That War! by AnthonyT

America loves a winner!

" But at a time when our discourse has become so sharply polarized -- at a time when we are far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who happen to think differently than we do -- it's important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we're talking with each other in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. "

- Barack Obama, Arizona Memorial Speech, 2011.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 11:04 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

This was fun. I checked out the story rather than the video, 'cuz my computer's slow this morning. I'd have to say I take this in context; while I definitely abhor the use of violent rhetoric, I think it's a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation. There's a difference between gun, crosshair and "second amendment" language and something which both previous statements AND the "everyone here's got a vote" just before it; this was intended, given what he said directly before, to mean "let's vote them out.”

I tend to agree with this:

Quote:
Some have reasonably argued that the alleged incendiary portion of the comment (the “take these sons of bitches out”) was prefaced with “everybody here has a vote,” which seems to add up to the more common phrase of voting someone out of office. But that’s not the convenient nor conflict-based meme that makes for a sexy (and dumbed down?) news narrative. The takeaway from the weekend? Hoffa said “let’s take these sons of bitches out,” or a declaration of war on the Tea Party movement. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/gretchen-carlson-and-wasserman-shultz-spar-
over-hoffas-take-them-out-remark/

That article is about Wasserman-Schulz being "interviewed" (reads "gone after") by Ms. Fair-and-Balanced Carlson, and I have to admit, I was much more curious to watch the latter try to goad the former, and being frustrated in her attempt. But my computer is being such a piece of shit I can't get the video from THAT, either! So here's their take:

Quote:
Cut to this morning’s appearance by the DNC chair on Fox and Friends. When challenged to rebuke Hoffa’s comments, Wasserman-Shultz punted, refusing to speak about the comments directly, staying focused on the economic woes that her constituents and most American’s are currently facing. This line of defense seemed to exasperate Carlson, who, when challenged by the DNC about violent Tea Party rhetoric, defended her fair and balanced approach by her central position on the Fox and Friends “curvy couch.”

Ooo, wait, I got it. It's as entertaining as expected.

Apparently Wasserman-Schulz had been speaking about jobs, when Carlson leads in with: "It seems one of the plans of the President is to go all out in force of the unions. Yesterday he did that in Detroit. He, his introductory speech was by Jimmie Hoffa Junior. He attacked the Tea part with what one peep...with what some people are saying is not very civil discussion. Listen to this..."

{they played the tape, STARTING with "we keep the eye on the prize. Let's take these sons-of-bitches out, etc."--leaving out the "everyone here has a vote" immediately before it, of course, being FauxNew}

Carlson: "Some people are saying that's kind of violent language for someone, the White House REFUSING to RESPOND to that..." As Head of the DNC, what's YOUR official RESPONSE to that today?"

Shulz: "My official response is that we need to make sure we focus on the middle class and working families, and that we bring everyone in this country from both sides of the aisle to focus like a laser on continuing to get this country turned around, that...

Carlson: "Wait a minute..."

Schulz: "...should be our priority...That's the priority of President Obama."

Carlson (talking over her): "But wait a minute. Jimmie Hoffa Jr. says 'let's take these sons of bitches out, and give America back to America where we belong. And THAT's your response to it?!?"

Schulz (waited for her to finish): "My response is that we should be working together and focused on creating jobs and, you know, when I'm home, I was just home in South Florida, before we were coming back to session this week, and what people talk to me about in the town hall meetings that I held were "Debbie, we need you to focus on job creation, we need to be sure...

Carlson: "Right. But wait a minute..."

Schulz: "...that you guys go back to Washington and work together. We need to make sure, so we don't..."

Carlson: "I'm talking about what Jimmie Hoffa said yesterday."

Schulz: "No. No. Excuse me,...and I'm talking about..." (at which point she stopped talking and smilingly shook her head, waiting for Carlson to finish)

Carlson: "I, I'm not talking...I'm looking for a specific response to what Jimmie Hoffa said yesterday."

Schulz: "I know you would like... Gretchen..."

Carlson: "Well, I would love to. You're the head of the DNC. "

Schulz: "I know you would like to focus on language..."

Carlson: "I'm looking for an official response ...he called...it was that..."

Schuls: "That's not what the American people are focused on."

Carlson: "...it was real...it was very serious language!"

Schulz: "The American people are focused on job creation."

Carlson: "Well, let's..."

Schulz: (laugh) "Are you kidding me?"

Carlson: "Yes. No, I'm not.

Schulz: "Really? You take a walk with me..."

(from here on out they're talking at the same time)
Carlson: "Here's what the President said back in January..."

Schulz: ".... through some of the Tea Party rallies... Excuse me. I'd love to answer your question..." (she stopped again and sat there smiling and nodding, waiting for Carlson to finish)

Carlson: "(see Raptor's quote from Obama in January after Giffords was shot)"

Schulz: "Yes, and I've called for civility too." (again she sat quietly smiling and nodding while Carlson continued)

Carlson: "Now the White House is saying NOTHING, and as head of the DNC, I think a lot of people would like to hear a response to taking sons of bitches out."

Schulz: "Gretchen, how many times, how many times have you called out coarse language at Tea Party rallies on this network?"

Carlson: "Plenty."

Schulz: "Almost never."

Carlson: "Plenty."

Schulz: "I've never heard you or any other of your anchors call out course language..."

Carlson: "I sit in the middle on the couch, I'm fair and balanced, Debbie. What is your response?"

Schulz: "Okay. My response is I know the American people and President Obama want us to focus on working together, want us to focus on...when I went home (repeat of above). That's my official response."

Whew!

When this began and Schulz was talking about jobs, the text under them read

Competing Jobs Plans
GOP candidate Romney releases plan today

Then changed to:

Hoffa takes on the Tea Party
Teamsters crank up rhetoric at labor rally

Then

'Take these S.O.B.s' out'
Hoffa cranks up anti-Tea Party rhetoric

Then

Hoffa heated over Tea Party
Declares there's a "War on Workers"

...and alternates those last two throughout the conversation.

If we want to pick nits on this, he's NOT Jimmy Hoffa Jr., he has a different middle name from his father and is James Hoffa. I realize the other sounds much better. He also said "Everybody here's got a vote" and “let’s take these sonofabitches out", not what was reported by Fox. It's also almost identical to something Hoffa said on Morning Joe about a week-and-a-half ago, with little or no outrage. He said “There’s going to be an election in ’12, and maybe the answer is, we wipe these people out.” At another time, he also said "“President is frustrated by what’s going on. Well guess what, we got the vote … remember in November. We will beat the tea party”

All of that makes it perfectly clear what he was saying.

Quote:
Now, the argument can be made that even with the qualifier, Hoffa’s quote is pretty strong, and he did use a bunch of war metaphors. Sarah Palin’s infamous “Don’t retreat, reload!” tweet contained no qualifier about votes, and conservatives were Jim-dandy with that, so the current outrage is likely of the “Gotcha!” variety. Anyone who wants to be mad at Hoffa for using war metaphors is welcome to do so (I like metaphors, always have), but the remark that’s getting all the attention isn’t even a metaphor, it’s a clear message to vote Tea Party Republicans out of office. http://www.mediaite.com/tv/james-hoffas-full-take-these-sons-of-bitche
s-out-quote-everybody-heres-got-a-vote/ about says it for me. Nonetheless, I think the wording was definitely regrettable. There doesn't need to be ANY more fuel tossed on the fire the Tea Party started, nor any excuse for either party to bicker over "violent rhetoric". Damn the media, if you want to damn someone, but I think he should clarify what he meant, nonetheless.

Pizmo, excellent: "rhetoridiculousness". Exactly how I feel, gotta remember that one. Silly idiots in a playground right after "recess": "Oh, yes you did!", "Oh, no I didn't!"

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 1:57 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

One of the trends I see as most regrettable is the reticence to speak out against our 'friends' when they take actions that we find abhorrent in our 'enemies.'

If our enemies do it, it is terrible, incendiary language that brings down the level of debate to its basest level while creating an unnecessarily antagonistic political atmosphere.

If our friends do it, then it is 'regrettable' and 'they did it first.'

It makes it very hard to take either side seriously when the highest aspiration of a political party is to duplicate the worst trends of their opposition without getting in trouble for it.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 3:00 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Anthony,

What you say is, of course, true and sound and appropriate, but...

I think there's a serious cultural divide that goes a long way toward rendering the argument moot. The right will never get its collective panties in a bunch over violent rhetoric coming from the left--the right will only laugh. Meanwhile, the left making a big show of "policing its own" and condemning this Union Guy's "take the s.o.b's out" matters not at all to anyone but dyed in the wool lefties.

The right mythologizes violence and unreservedly reveres violent men who share their ideology. While the left does some mythologizing of its own, for the most part the left will nuance their sanction of violence out of existence, or at least to the point where the right will laugh at them anyway. (And just to be clear, if anyone who's reading this abhors violence and self identifies as "right," in my book, you're just not, sorry. In other words, you're not part of the group I identify in this post as "the right." You may have some right-leaning notions and such, but you are not "the right." You are not what our friend Frem would call "a jackboot." I'm talking about the jackboots.)

Barack Obama could go to war with Libya, Iran and Syria to boot, and the right would still consider him a pansy. The left will never be able to harness violent rhetoric, or even violent action, the way the right does for political gain.

With a turn of phrase like we're talking about here, where a possibly violent image is embedded in an otherwise thoroughly inoffensive (tired) speech, we're dealing with dog whistle politics. The problem is, there are just not enough mad dogs on the left to make anyone worry about who is hearing that whistle. I'm sorry, no right winger is going to be scared by this guy's speech. Ever. It is politically irrelevant.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 4:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The problem is, there are just not enough mad dogs on the left to make anyone worry about who is hearing that whistle.

Which is kinda sad in a way, cause I can foam at the chops pretty convincingly if I want to..

Since this thread is pretty absurd anyway, lemme share something tossed at me via a discussion on Anarchy somewhere else earlier today - although I don't think hysterical laughter was the intended effect when it was sent to me by someone calling Anarchism inherently unjust...
http://www.wallout.com/liberty_screwing_justice

Once I got done laughing my ass off, in retrospect it made me feel kinda patriotic, actually.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:08 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Niki2 wrote:
Tuesday, September 06, 2011 11:04

This was fun. I checked out the story rather than the video, 'cuz my computer's slow this morning. I'd have to say I take this in context; while I definitely abhor the use of violent rhetoric, I think it's a mountain-out-of-a-molehill situation. There's a difference between gun, crosshair and "second amendment" language and something which both previous statements AND the "everyone here's got a vote" just before it; this was intended, given what he said directly before, to mean "let's vote them out.”

Of COURSE you'd claim it's a mountain out of a mole hill. Duh ! It completely blows apart any logical claim of moral high ground by the Left, and you simply can NOT have any of that! Sons of bitches, going to war, fighting...that's far and away more antagonistic and confrontational than some silly 'target' on a map. Please, it's not even worth debating. Even Anthony can see this, why can't you?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 6:35 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Maybe they should start putting targets on maps and raffle off some guns.

I've been assured that these kinds of actions in no way can be viewed as any kind of bad thing.

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Tuesday, September 6, 2011 7:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Of COURSE you'd claim it's a mountain out of a mole hill. Duh ! It completely blows apart any logical claim of moral high ground by the Left, and you simply can NOT have any of that! Sons of bitches, going to war, fighting...

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I applaud you, Raptor, for being brave enough to state the truth about this foul Democratic speech. It's wrong! It's terrible! Shame on this Democrat for using this sort of divisive, antagonistic speech!

And now, please join me in condemning this same rhetoric that commonly comes from the GOP and the Tea Party.

Let us be bold enough to call it wrong even then! I'll start!

It's wrong! It's terrible! SHAME on the GOP and the Tea Party for using just such rhetoric in the past!

Your turn.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Wednesday, September 7, 2011 9:16 AM

America loves a winner!

What rhetoric are you speaking of, specifically?

Sarah Palin's innocuous cross-hairs image on her Facebook page ?

That was neither the GOP or TEA Party's doing, and quite frankly, is completely different than the vitriol spewed by Hoffa.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 12:51 PM

Meanwhile, one of the Koch brothers was caught on tape speaking to a "secret" meeting of GOP lawmakers he sponsors, referring to President Obama as "Saddam Hussein" and pledging "the mother of all wars" against him...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:09 PM

Rep. Allen West (R-FL) urged Tea Partiers to use "muskets and bayonets" to defeat Democrats in his campaign speeches.

I recall no outrage from FauxNews or from Rappy, no condemnation of such language.

Sharron Angle (R-NV) once threatened to "use Second Amendment remedies" (what does the Second Amendment talk about, exactly?) to "take out" Harry Reid.

No condemnation was forthcoming from Rappy.

When Sarah Palin put crosshairs on Gabby Giffords and others and told her followers "Don't retreat. Reload!", again no condemnation of her violent rhetoric was forthcoming, even after Giffords was shot and several others were killed.

And hell, according to some, it would be perfectly normal and rational for James Hoffa to now raffle off some guns as a way to raise funds with which to "take those sons-of-bitches out".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:28 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony, you're right and I agree. I just saw this as a "gotcha", given he had said similar things previously, CLEARLY connected to "voting" them out, and that he'd said "we've each got a vote" immediately preceding the remark in question. I didn't see any such material which would mitigate (in essence, I forget the exact wording): "If we don't get what we want, we're going to resort to second-amendment remedies" and the ad running around with the Founding Fathers urging violence. Those were, to me, pretty obviously overt THREATS; this was not. I nonetheless think it was wrong if for no other reason than it COULD be misconstrued, and it DOES fan the flames of divisiveness. Definitely. I guess I see the others as less deliberately threatening than this one; deliberately INTENDED to be threatening.

At the bottom of it all, your statement is right on point; people should CARE what they're saying, not toss stuff out to inflame their audience which will increase the extremely deep divide in America today. Those in the public eye should think about what they're saying; the momentary riling up of a crowd fades; the media splurge over the wording goes on for days, and isn't forgotten soon.

ETA: Ooops, I just saw your response to Raptor. Almost spit out my ice tea. He didn't get your initial statement, did he? Wonderful!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:32 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Cav...sigh...as usual, you are right on point, in my opinion, and, as is too often the case, it saddens me to recognize it. I've known it for years, but I try not to think about it. The fact is, the right is much better at getting down in the gutter EFFECTIVELY, and always will be, and the left is far better at snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory, and being wooses, and always will be. Sad fact of life.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:42 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike: Excellent, thank you for the examples. In any of those examples, were references made to VOTING as a way to "take them out", I wonder? And you forgot the beautiful Rick Barber ad:

Man, it don't get NO more direct than that! I don't recall anyone on the right saying anything negative about that one, and gosh, what does "gather your armies" in response to Barber's rant mean, I wonder? Armies of voters?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:44 PM

America loves a winner!

The Dems are the angry, violent, gutless rabble they try to paint the TEA party movement folks as being, and it's not even close.

Quote:
Longshoremen storm Wash. state port, overpower guards, dump grain
Labor dispute spreads to Seattle, Tacoma ahead of court hearing

LONGVIEW, Wash. — Hundreds of Longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview early Thursday, overpowered and held security guards, damaged railroad cars, and dumped grain that is the center of a labor dispute, officials said.

The International Longshore and Warehouse Union dispute spread to Seattle, Tacoma, Everett and Anacortes ports ahead of a court hearing scheduled for 1:30 p.m. Thursday in Tacoma, where a judge is expected to consider alleged union violations of a previous restraining order.

On Thursday, six guards were held hostage for a couple of hours after 500 or more Longshoremen broke down Longview gates about 4:30 a.m. PT (7:30 a.m. ET) and smashed windows in the guard shack, said Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44439782/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:51 PM

Isn't that, in the most literal sense of the phrase, almost an EXACT reenactment of the Boston Tea Party? Are you saying that these are indeed Tea Partiers?

Or are you saying that the instigators of the original Boston Tea Party (itself a terrorist act) were "angry, violent, gutless rabble"?

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 1:58 PM

America loves a winner!

Nothing remotely like the original tea party, and you know it.

Now I know ( always have known, actually) that you're simply trolling, and have nothing of substance to say, what so ever, in the least.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:12 PM

So anyone who disagrees with Rappy or Geezer is simply a troll.

Got it.

Troll is the new Godwin.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:20 PM

America loves a winner!

Your intentional distortion, tossing up red herrings and false analogies is what makes you and your ilk, trolls.

Not merely disagreeing w/ specific points, on merit or supported by evidence. You in particular run away from having adult conversations on ANYTHING.

No, instead you just post vulgar parody pics and mischaracterize what others say, and the positions they take as your means of 'debate'.

Instead of having to repeat the obvious, over and over again, " troll " applies, quite nicely.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:29 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Let's see...

What did John McCain say about Palin? Did he condemn her language? You betcha!

And you forgot Palin's "blood libel"

Good gawd, need we? Okay:

Michelle Bachman: She wants the residents of her state “armed and dangerous.”

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs." -- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX)

Huckabee: Members of Congress "should be tarred and feathered as the original tea partiers would have done."

Ann Coulter: “My only regret with Tim McVeigh is that he did not go to the New York Times building”

Chuck Norris: "...when that time comes, will our leaders finally listen or will history need to record a second American Revolution?"

And let's not forget the Tree of Liberty...

(You can dismiss the following if you want, as they're talk radio/tv pundits, from whom we expect little else, be they right or left. But here are just a few examples--if I quoted Beck or Limbaugh, it would go on all night)

Glen Beck: “Hang on, let me just tell you what I’m thinking. I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could.”

Rush Limbaugh: “I tell people don’t kill ALL the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus–living fossils–so we we’ll never forget what these people stood for.”

Michael Savage: “I say round liberals up and hang em’ high. When I hear someone’s in the civil rights business, I oil up my AR-25.”

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." -- Ann Coulter

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for." -- Rush Limbaugh

“I’ll tell you who should be tortured and killed at Guantanamo: every filthy Democrat in the U.S. Congress." -- Sean Hannity

Fox News contributor Dick Morris: "[t]hose crazies in Montana who say, 'We're going to kill ATF agents because the U.N.'s going to take over' -- well, they're beginning to have a case."

Radio talk show host Jim Quinn stated, "You have got to say no to this, and if they push this through, you need to riot in the streets. You need to riot in the streets." He further said, "Our country was built on revolution and it's about time we took it back....and if a revolution is what it takes, damn it, then that's what it's going to take."

Newsmax columnist John Perry: "There is a remote, although gaining, possibility America's military will intervene as a last resort to resolve the 'Obama problem.' Don't dismiss it as unrealistic."

Shall we go on? Cav is right; it's their stock in trade. Speaks to their base. It's effective.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:29 PM

Huh. I posted SPECIFIC examples of exactly what this thread was supposed to be about (violent rhetoric and the calling out of it, or not calling out of it, as the case may be). You never responded on point, posted up some idiotic story, and then started calling others trolls.

Seems you're quite the troll here, by your own definition.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:32 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Your intentional distortion, tossing up red herrings and false analogies is what makes you and your ilk, trolls.

Not merely disagreeing w/ specific points, on merit or supported by evidence. You in particular run away from having adult conversations on ANYTHING.

No, instead you just post vulgar parody pics and mischaracterize what others say, and the positions they take as your means of 'debate'.

Instead of having to repeat the obvious, over and over again, " troll " applies, quite nicely.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

There are clear examples of divisive, hateful speech above. You still have not condemned them. Where is your commitment to a better way?

Does your discerning ear turn deaf to the bad actors in your own party?

Does your acute eye turn blind?

Join me in condemnation. Shame on the antagonizers within the GOP and Tea Party! Shame on the party for not speaking out against its own worst elements!

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:40 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I, for one, am sure left-wing talk-show hosts and no doubt what's-his-name on the "Joe Show" or whatever it's called (I can never remember, dammit!) have used violent rhetoric, which is why I caveated the last quotes I put up. I'm sure some of those in office, candidates for same, or in the public eye have done so as well. And I condemn them ALL, left, right, middle, Tea Party, whoever. It gets attention, it gets media; it works. But it works wrongly, is always picked up and made hay of by the media, and it's wrong, whoever's mouth it comes from, as well as increasing the divide between people AND distracting from the actual, serious issues we face.

And I DEFINITELY condemn violent ACTIONS, such as the example above. We could get into that, too, the photo of the woman on the ground with a foot on her head, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Fact is THAT happens on both sides too, and is wrong for even more reasons.

Mike and Raptor: Back to your regularly-scheduled programming--have at one another. Neither of you makes sense.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:52 PM

America loves a winner!

A -

Quotes taken out of context don't constitute 'divisive, hateful' speech.

There is nothing to condemn.

Well, maybe not Michael Savage. His comments are probably in context, but hey...it's Michael Savage. Who's listening to him anyways ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:55 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:57 PM

Quote:
What rhetoric are you speaking of, specifically?

Sarah Palin's innocuous cross-hairs image on her Facebook page ?

See guys? This is what I mean when I said that this is not a real brain worth trying to assess. This troll knows exactly what you mean Anthony, and he does indeed know know where his hypocrisy lies. "Innocuous crosshairs"? Come on. He says stuff like that on purpose. He likes playing ignorant, so you'll spend your hours explaining the obvious and getting flustered when he just won't *get* it.

It's pure made up BS. But by all means, argue with him. You're guaranteed to come out ahead, because you're honest and use logic, rather than emotionally manipulating posters for some obscure, unrelated purpose of your own.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:02 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, now I don't feel so bad. Cav, you've been here I see, since 2005. I've only been here since July 2009...and it took me a year and a half to "get it". 'Cuz yeah, I got it all right. Just shook my head when I DID, thinking "why would anyone want to spend so MUCH time...?" But I got THAT much quicker.

You might as well give up, tho, Cav. I've been trying to say this for a couple of months now, to no avail. Don't waste your fingers typing, they either don't care or can't seem to resist letting their buttons be pushed. It'll go on unchanged, just ignore it and talk to the adults rather than go away, puleeze?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:06 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, and Raptor:

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, now I don't feel so bad. Cav, you've been here I see, since 2005.

You mean me? I take that as a compliment. HKCav is quite cool.

Anyway, back to Anthony's point. I agree that the "take these SOB's out" wording was a stupid and careless choice.

On the other hand, the incomplete quote of it by Faux stinks of them once again doing all they can to justify prior statements from the right. I mean - being offended by this after the things they've defended? Puh-lease. I wish Stewart was on air right now to pull together an applicable series of Faux clips.

But we all know what Faux is, and what they do. Hoffa should have known better then to put such a statement out there for them to use. He should have said "vote" the SOB's out, not "take" them out. He should have made it impossible to edit into a different meaning.

If he worked for me, I'd fire him over it.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:29 PM

America loves a winner!

Yes, " innocuous " is exactly what describes Palin's FB page image of targeting certain seats. Nothing in the least bit wrong with her doing that, as such talk has been shown to pre exist in politics and other areas for years and years.

It's sad to see folks try to phony up anger and display mock indignation over something 100 % benign, and then turn around and try to defend what some gutless Democrats have said, not just thug union leaders.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:59 PM

Quote:
Anyway, back to Anthony's point. I agree that the "take these SOB's out" wording was a stupid and careless choice.

According to Rappy, though, that was 100% benign, because such talk has been shown to be pre-existing in politics for years.

Seriously. He just said that.

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yes, " innocuous " is exactly what describes Hoffa's speech talking about "taking out" certain seats. Nothing in the least bit wrong with him doing that, as such talk has been shown to pre exist in politics and other areas for years and years.

It's sad to see folks try to phony up anger and display mock indignation over something 100 % benign, and then turn around and try to defend what some gutless Republicans have said, not just thug tea partiers.

Oh, look - it makes just as much sense that way!

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:05 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Anyway, back to Anthony's point. I agree that the "take these SOB's out" wording was a stupid and careless choice.

According to Rappy, though, that was 100% benign, because such talk has been shown to be pre-existing in politics for years.

Seriously. He just said that.

No I didn't and no it hasn't. You're a 6 year old, and it shows.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Anyway, back to Anthony's point. I agree that the "take these SOB's out" wording was a stupid and careless choice.

According to Rappy, though, that was 100% benign, because such talk has been shown to be pre-existing in politics for years.

Seriously. He just said that.

Of course he did. Because saying something so obviously moronic and hypocritical guarantees that you'll reply and keep at it for a while.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 6:08 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Quotes taken out of context don't constitute 'divisive, hateful' speech.

There is nothing to condemn."

Hello,

According to this guy, there's nothing to see here. Not from Democrats and not from Republicans.

Thread over, man. Thread over.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 8, 2011 6:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Anyway, back to Anthony's point. I agree that the "take these SOB's out" wording was a stupid and careless choice.

According to Rappy, though, that was 100% benign, because such talk has been shown to be pre-existing in politics for years.

Seriously. He just said that.

Of course he did. Because saying something so obviously moronic and hypocritical guarantees that you'll reply and keep at it for a while.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

It is humorous - for all the talk between you and Niki about how far above it all you are, and how you would never get sucked into such a thing... here you both are. Responding, and chiding me for responding.

In another thread, I posted up a few specific examples of violent rhetoric by Republicans, to which Niki responded that I didn't make sense - and then she went and "wasted" her time typing up an ENORMOUS list of the exact same kind of right-wing comments.

So apparently it's silly and stupid if I post facts to refute Rappy's idiotic claims, but not when y'all do it. Cute trick, that.

Seriously, Niki spends as much time talking about how she's not paying attention to Rappy as I spend actually responding to him. I don't know why she or you think it's any better to respond to someone by insisting that you're not responding to them, rather than by just RESPONDING TO THEM directly.

I mean, really, it's the hypocrisy that grinds my gears. Do I needle Rappy? Of course. So does just about everyone here. But I'm not sitting around needling him by going "Nyaaahh-nyahhh - I'm not talking to you! I'm not talking to you" - which is, when you get right down to it, TALKING TO HIM. Instead of the passive-agressive bullshit, just address him directly. It's actually less annoying. Or ignore him completely. But y'all can't do that; instead, you'll complain that others aren't doing what you yourself aren't doing. Do as I say, not as I do, eh?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, September 9, 2011 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It is humorous - for all the talk between you and Niki about how far above it all you are, and how you would never get sucked into such a thing... here you both are. Responding, and chiding me for responding.

It wasn't clear, but my frame of mind was not really chide-ish toward you. I was stating what was obvious to me, rather than taking a hook that Rappy's put out there many times before. I'm kind of tired of those hooks.

Quote:
So apparently it's silly and stupid if I post facts to refute Rappy's idiotic claims, but not when y'all do it. Cute trick, that.

I'm not posting facts, actually. I'm not interesting in debating this guy because yes, I think that's rather silly. (But not at all stupid. I can see the draw, and - in all seriousness - I think you handle him well. I have posted that about you, recently. I think that part of what's good about how you do it is that you damned well know it's silly.)

So, you ask, if I'm not interested, why don't I just stay out of the conversation and let you two go at it?

Mike, you ought to maybe step back a minute and consider what options there are for a person who likes RWED but is completely not interested in Rappy. I'd love to do nothing but ignore him, but it gets hard when every single thread is all about proving Rappy wrong.

So either I don't post here, or I find a way to deal with him. You have your way, Niki has hers, and I have mine. If you don't like my occasional indirect passive-aggressive needling, well hell. Quit letting Rappy take over every damned thread and I'll quit needling over it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, September 9, 2011 3:21 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"If you don't like my occasional indirect passive-aggressive needling, well hell. Quit letting Rappy take over every damned thread and I'll quit needling over it."

Hello,

I think they call that a 'touch' in fencing.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 9, 2011 3:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
It is humorous - for all the talk between you and Niki about how far above it all you are, and how you would never get sucked into such a thing... here you both are. Responding, and chiding me for responding.
It wasn't clear, but my frame of mind was not really chide-ish toward you. I was stating what was obvious to me, rather than taking a hook that Rappy's put out there many times before. I'm kind of tired of those hooks.

Quote:
So apparently it's silly and stupid if I post facts to refute Rappy's idiotic claims, but not when y'all do it. Cute trick, that.
I'm not posting facts, actually. I'm not interesting in debating this guy because yes, I think that's rather silly. (But not at all stupid. I can see the draw, and - in all seriousness - I think you handle him well. I have posted that about you, recently. I think that part of what's good about how you do it is that you damned well know it's silly.)

So, you ask, if I'm not interested, why don't I just stay out of the conversation and let you two go at it?

Mike, you ought to maybe step back a minute and consider what options there are for a person who likes RWED but is completely not interested in Rappy. I'd love to do nothing but ignore him, but it gets hard when every single thread is all about proving Rappy wrong.

So either I don't post here, or I find a way to deal with him. You have your way, Niki has hers, and I have mine. If you don't like my occasional indirect passive-aggressive needling, well hell. Quit letting Rappy take over every damned thread and I'll quit needling over it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

Fair point(s).

And I'm not trying to attack you or Niki here, just point out that while I get called on the carpet for letting Rappy push my buttons, I'm far from the only one who responds to him.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 4:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Personally, I prefer to talk about rappy when I think about him at all. Most of his points are just right-wing provocation, and honestly not worth the time spent refuting them.

When (if) rappy actually chooses to engage in a factual discussion... brings facts and logic to the table ... then he will be worth talking to. But once he goes back to spouting "The earth is flat nyah nyah nyah I win!" he goes off the radar (again).
------------

Tony, that comment is so out of context it's stupid you should bring it up... speaking of not being even-handed because there are FAR too many examples of the right-wing saying the same or worse ... in context... and where were you?

What I think is stupid is volunteering to be part of "Obama's army". That's like following General Quisling.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 4:19 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Tony, that comment is so out of context it's stupid you should bring it up... speaking of not being even-handed because there are FAR too many examples of the right-wing saying the same or worse ... in context... and where were you?"

Hello,

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

It sounds like you are saying I am stupid for mentioning something.

(What?)

And then you ask where I am when the right wing says something abominable.

(Here, usually?)

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 9, 2011 4:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And then you ask where I am when the right wing says something abominable. (Here, usually?)

Starting a thread about the outrage of it all? Especially when it was so immediately shown to be out-of-context?

So, what do you think of labor throwing itself at Obama's feet?

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Friday, September 9, 2011 4:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
And then you ask where I am when the right wing says something abominable. (Here, usually?)
Starting a thread about the outrage of it all? Especially when it was so immediately shown to be out-of-context?

So, what do you think of labor throwing itself at Obama's feet?

Hello,

I am upset to see members of the Democratic party adopting the rather disgusting rhetoric of their opposition. The guy sounds like a Tea Partier of recent vintage. In any context, it makes me shake my head.

Do you enjoy this method of communication?

As for labor throwing itself at Obama's feet, I'd be happy to discuss how unions may have failed to pursue the best interests of their employees if you'd like?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 9, 2011 5:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, I read a very interesting article of which I will quote parts..

Confessions of a GOP Operative Who Left "the Cult": 3 Things Everyone Must Know About the Lunatic-Filled Republican Party

Former GOPer: "If you think Paul Ryan and his Ayn Rand-worshipping colleagues aren't after your Social Security and Medicare, I am here to disabuse you of your naiveté."

Quote:
Barbara Stanwyck: "We're both rotten!"
Fred MacMurray: "Yeah - only you're a little more rotten." -"Double Indemnity" (1944)

Those lines of dialogue from a classic film noir sum up the state of the two political parties in contemporary America. Both parties are rotten - how could they not be, given the complete infestation of the political system by corporate money on a scale that now requires a presidential candidate to raise upwards of a billion dollars to be competitive in the general election?... But both parties are not rotten in quite the same way.

... To those millions of Americans who have finally begun paying attention to politics and watched with exasperation the tragicomedy of the debt ceiling extension, it may have come as a shock that the Republican Party is so full of lunatics....

I could see as early as last November that the Republican Party would use the debt limit vote... to concoct an entirely artificial fiscal crisis. Then, they would use that fiscal crisis to get what they wanted, by literally holding the US and global economies as hostages... lay[ing] off 4,000 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) employees, 70,000 private construction workers and ... forcing them to pay for their own work-related travel... in order to strong arm some union-busting provisions into the FAA reauthorization.

Everyone knows that in a hostage situation, the reckless and amoral actor has the negotiating upper hand ... virtually every bill, every nominee for Senate confirmation and every routine procedural motion is now subject to a Republican filibuster. Under the circumstances, it is no wonder that Washington is gridlocked: legislating has now become war minus the shooting, something one could have observed 80 years ago in the Reichstag of the Weimar Republic.

... A couple of years ago, a Republican committee staff director told me candidly (and proudly) what the method was to all this obstruction and disruption. Should Republicans succeed in obstructing the Senate from doing its job, it would further lower Congress's generic favorability rating among the American people. By sabotaging the reputation of an institution of government, the party that is programmatically against government would come out the relative winner.

... There are tens of millions of low-information voters who hardly know which party controls which branch of government, let alone which party is pursuing a particular legislative tactic. These voters' confusion over who did what allows them to form the conclusion that "they are all crooks," and that "government is no good," ... This constant drizzle of "there the two parties go again!" stories out of the news bureaus, combined with the hazy confusion of low-information voters, means that the long-term Republican strategy of undermining confidence in our democratic institutions has reaped electoral dividends.

... Undermining Americans' belief in their own institutions of self-government remains a prime GOP electoral strategy.

... Among the GOP base, there is constant harping about somebody else, some "other," who is deliberately, assiduously and with malice aforethought subverting the Good, the True and the Beautiful: Subversives. Commies. Socialists. Ragheads. Secular humanists. Blacks. Fags. Feminazis. The list may change with the political needs of the moment, but they always seem to need a scapegoat to hate and fear.

... the deindustrialization and financialization of America since about 1970 has spawned an increasingly downscale white middle class - without job security (or even without jobs), with pensions and health benefits evaporating and with their principal asset deflating in the collapse of the housing bubble. Their fears are not imaginary; their standard of living is shrinking.

What do the Democrats offer these people? Essentially nothing. ... Democrats ceded the field.

Above all, they do not understand language. Their initiatives are posed in impenetrable policy-speak: the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The what? - can anyone even remember it? No wonder the pejorative "Obamacare" won out. Contrast that with the Republicans' Patriot Act. You're a patriot, aren't you? Does anyone at the GED level have a clue what a Stimulus Bill is supposed to be? Why didn't the White House call it the Jobs Bill and keep pounding on that theme?

You know that Social Security and Medicare are in jeopardy when even Democrats refer to them as entitlements. "Entitlement" has a negative sound in colloquial English: somebody who is "entitled" selfishly claims something he doesn't really deserve. Why not call them "earned benefits," which is what they are because we all contribute payroll taxes to fund them? That would never occur to the Democrats. Republicans don't make that mistake; they are relentlessly on message: it is never the "estate tax," it is the "death tax."

...As for what they really believe, the Republican Party of 2011 believes in three principal tenets I have laid out below. The rest of their platform one may safely dismiss as window dressing:

1. The GOP cares solely and exclusively about its rich contributors. The party has built a whole catechism on the protection and further enrichment of America's plutocracy. Their caterwauling about deficit and debt is so much eyewash to con the public. Whatever else President Obama has accomplished (and many of his purported accomplishments are highly suspect), his $4-trillion deficit reduction package did perform the useful service of smoking out Republican hypocrisy.
....
2. They worship at the altar of Mars. While the me-too Democrats have set a horrible example of keeping up with the Joneses with respect to waging wars, they can never match GOP stalwarts such as John McCain or Lindsey Graham in their sheer, libidinous enthusiasm for invading other countries.

3. Give me that old time religion. Pandering to fundamentalism is a full-time vocation in the GOP.

There is much to think about in that article.

But one thing that came clear to me was the part about "low information voters" and LANGUAGE. The left- such as it is... needs to create a sharp, piercing, simple message... much like the right has done... in order to penetrate the haze.

I don't enjoy it. I would frankly much rather have intelligent discussions about the GINI index and paths towards a sustainable and fair economy. But given the shrillness of rhetoric from the right- starting with Reagan... I think it's necessary and appropriate to offer similarly pointed rhetoric from the center and left.

-----------------

Quote:
I'd be happy to discuss how unions may have failed to pursue the best interests of their employees if you'd like?

Only if we start first with how business has failed to protect workers' interests.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 5:34 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike; it comes down to "I do what I feel like doing". Sometimes I refute Raptor 'cuz it's something so outrageous that it's easy to find stuff (especially clips) to do so, and it's fun. Sometimes I mock him, because that's fun too, and I know how much he hates my emoticons. Sometimes I totally ignore him. Sometimes I snark at you/others for letting him get to you...especially when threads turn into nothing BUT you and Raptor going at it. So sue me.

But no, I don't spend nearly as much time/effort in responding to him that you do, and I don't get into back-and-forths that go on for post after post; I think that's what frustrates me. So I mention it whe it does, because it doesn't seem logical for someone who is actually intelligent to engage in the kind of silly stuff you stoop to sometimes. Again; sue me!

I'm not sure where I said you didn't make sense, I'd like to know--can you give me the link? Because I never think YOU don't make sense, just arguing with HIM doesn't make sense. It's definitely never the facts you present, it's more the "yes you did", "no I didn't" stuff that puts you right on his level which to me is senseless but, as I've said over and over, it's certainly your right to do so!

I didn't type the quotes, by the way, I lifted them from websites. If you google something like "examples violent Republican (Tea Party) rhetoric", you get tons and tons of hits. It was fun to show just how nasty they can get, and how many of them do it. Satisfying, if you will. I didn't even know about most of them.

I don't see my stuff as passive-aggressive, I see it as mocking. And I enjoy doing it, because refuting him with facts doesn't mean anything to HIM, and once done for others' information, repeating it just wastes my time. So I snark at him, pretty directly I believe. Yeah, the not-listening-to-you emoticon is childish, it's meant to be, a reflection of his own childishness. Sorry it annoys you, we're kinda even on that, since you and he going on and on for many threads annoys ME (obviously). As Anthony said, I hate seeing someone I respect stoop to Raptor's level, so I guess I take it too personally in a way. I shouldn't but there it is. It also annoys me that, just like this one, Raptor manages to get a thread to be all about him, when I'd rather discuss the actual issues.

Lastly no, I don't go on and on with him the way you do. I take a few swipes, then he gets boring and I move on or address someone else. Just a matter of quantity, no biggie. I remark on what a waste it is to engage him sometimes because I wish we could ALL ignore him...I heard it was done again and it would be great to see, but I don't expect it, I just remind people about it. And not hypocrisy, we all have our own styles, that's mine and this is why I do it, 'kay?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, September 9, 2011 5:38 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I don't enjoy it. I would frankly much rather have intelligent discussions about the GINI index and paths towards a sustainable and fair economy. But given the shrillness of rhetoric from the right- starting with Reagan... I think it's necessary and appropriate to offer similarly pointed rhetoric from the center and left."

Hello,

I think it is possible to use better language without using more aggressive language. The speech that spawned this thread was not using better, more effective language. It was just parroting aggressive elements of GOP/Tea Partier language to push the same buttons.

So I even think it will prove ineffective along with being lamentable.

"Only if we start first with how business has failed to protect workers' interests."

That's easy. Businesses are in the game only for themselves. If they can screw the employees and get away with it, they will. The bigger the business, and the wider its investor base, the more it cares about the bottom line and the less it cares about the individual worker.

Is this even in question?

I am not deceived into believing that corporations care about people. When they bend, it is because they perceive that bending is profitable somehow.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 9, 2011 5:41 AM