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But we should not fool ourselves into thinking that forcing X to help Y under threat of theft and violence is an endeavor born from a love of liberty.

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Even though I love Freedom, I can't bring myself to do it. It is a personal failing, and a failure of conviction to my philosophy.

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It's not a bad thing to let humanity get in the way of ideological purity. Many of history's greatest monsters were people who clung so tightly and passionately to their ideology that they were able to make themselves insensible to human suffering. Ideological purists are the most scarily callous form of people imo.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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Even though I love Freedom, I can't bring myself to do it. It is a personal failing, and a failure of conviction to my philosophy.

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It's not a bad thing to let humanity get in the way of ideological purity. Many of history's greatest monsters were people who clung so tightly and passionately to their ideology that they were able to make themselves insensible to human suffering. Ideological purists are the most scarily callous form of people imo.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Originally posted by RionaEire:
All I know is that in Canada they aren't required to treat people from out of country in their hospitals in emergencies.

I think we need to continue to treat people who come in for emergencies. Otherwise we are cruel folk indeed, I mean really. Now granted that's easy for me to say since I'm just a citizen and don't know all about the money and logistics etc. but it would be wrong not to.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

What bothers me the worst is that we *HAVE* the logistical capability to MAKE proper medical care a human/civil right... and we don't.

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Nothing remotely malicious in what I posted on this topic.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"The question amounts to: Do you force people to help each other?"

I realize your humanity had a strong conflict with your ideology (and your humanity won out) but I have a question about your ideology and this seemed as good a place to ask as any ...

Do you believe in NO laws?



Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Is your philosophy rooted in a fear of anything that smacks of cooperative action?


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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maximum amount of freedom for each individual

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

...nor can you ever force anyone to perform a service, at the point of a gun, simply because we wants it done.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Nothing remotely malicious in what I posted on this topic.

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rappy, just look at YOUR quotes (above)

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
On a theoretical basis it's all good, it's working out the nuts and bolts that gets hazy. What if the minority is exploiting the majority? Do you allow property rights to trump the right of the majority to determine the form (including the economy) of their society? It seems to me that we have allowed private (individual and business) property rights to distort the basic function of society which is to benefit and care for its members - under the banner of freedom. I'm wondering how, if we allow laws to infringe on our real freedoms, we balk at laws to help the members of society.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Originally posted by Niki2:
Didn't read all of this, but I noticed it went off track almost immediately into a discussion of theories, etc.

So I'll ask it myself, and request that people respond to the specific question, not ideology or anything else, because if the people like that guy in the audience had their way, supposedly they WOULD let him die. So: To the specific question...you are there, you are looking this person in the eye, what would you do?

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Treat him and let the hospital pass on the costs to everybody? Treat him and sue later, hoping he'll somehow find the cash? Get the Feds to subsidize him? Suppose he's poor and can't afford private insurance?

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Just to be fair, I'd treat him, come what may. I don't believe we are a country which has become so callous as to let him die on the ER steps and I find it inconceivable we will become one. We are STILL one of the richest countries in the world, so how can we just LET people die? That's where I stand.

Where do you stand--in this SPECIFIC example, please?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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It seems to me that we have allowed private (individual and business) property rights to distort the basic function of society which is to benefit and care for its members - under the banner of freedom.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
[B I don't believe we are a country which has become so callous as to let him die on the ER steps and I find it inconceivable we will become one. We are STILL one of the richest countries in the world, so how can we just LET people die? That's where I stand.

Where do you stand--in this SPECIFIC example, please?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I wonder what list of noble and ignoble professions one might conjure, and what diagrams of acceptable wealth and pleasure one might draw, and further what penalties one might impose upon a man who dares pursue too much luxury in his life.

--Anthony

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That would be nice. I think the barriers to entry in these businesses limit competition and prevent the expected course of competitive pricing. It's like an exclusive guild.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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That would be nice. I think the barriers to entry in these businesses limit competition and prevent the expected course of competitive pricing. It's like an exclusive guild.

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I was referring more to customers choosing people who aren't price gouging. The emphasis was on people driving up prices obscenely. The guy charging double or more the approximate range of prices the other providers are charging should get fewer customers by that factor alone.

No guild or even backroom deal price setting required.

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It seems as unethical as letting someone die.

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