The Family Farm by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Family Farm

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Monday, September 19, 2011 13:24
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Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:03 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My grandfather on my mother's side was a kind of policeman. He enforced the laws in his community. His job included making sure the butcher kept his scales set correctly and the milk-man didn't add water to the milk. The butcher would consequently offer him free meat if the scales could be overlooked, and the milk-man would offer free milk if the watering could be overlooked. He lived a life without free meat and milk.

But this is not his story.

This is the story of my gradfather on my father's side. He worked for the sugarcane company. He was a welder. I do not know if modern production factories or food refineries need a welder on hand, but this one did. During sugarcane processing season, my grandfather had weekly employment at the company.

Back in those days, places like sugarcane factories/refineries had entire towns pop up around them. Company towns. Some basic housing would be provided by the company. There'd be a company store of some kind to provide for the worker's needs. It wasn't the only store in the area but it was the only store in town at first. One may imagine that until closer competition cropped up, the situation may not have been entirely equitable for the workers in the company town.

Housing was basic, and one was expected to pay something to the company for using it. This didn't leave a lot left. By the standards of modern society, you would consider the occupants of this company town to be somewhat poor. The employees got by, but they didn't really propsper. It was enough to live on and not much else... and sometimes it wasn't quite enough to live on.

The sugarcane factory wasn't a year-long concern. It only operated when the cane was in season. There was more than one harvest of sugarcane per year, but even so there were periods when no cane was being harvested, planted, or processed. During these times, the occupants of the company town had to find ways to get by. Many people took second jobs. My grandfather was one such person. He worked odd jobs during the off-season. He was always working. There wasn't always need of a welder. Sometimes he would wash dishes at a restaurant in a big town far away. Whatever it took to feed the family. Living happened under a thin margin of success. Somewhere within that margin, he managed to save a little bit of money.

There was a railroad that operated in the region of the sugarcane factory. I've never been clear on whether the railroad owned the factory or whether the factory owned the railroad. Either way, the entity of the factory and the railroad owned most of the land around the site. From time to time, land would become available for sale. Perhaps this was another revenue generation stream of the company. I'm not sure what their motivation was, but they sold land to their workers. These workers would no longer be living in company housing. They'd own a piece of land of their own. In the long run, this provided quite a savings.

How much land? A lot of it, by modern city standards. Maybe a whole acre. How big is an acre? Almost a whole football field. Almost, but not quite.

When my grandfather saved up enough money, he was able to buy one of these plots. It was a big deal. Of course, it was just a plot of land. Unimproved, as they say in the Real Estate business. He built a house on that land with some help from his brothers. The materials were haphazard. Pieces of rail, pieces of discarded wood. He acquired a cement block mold, which was a big deal. Whenever he had some extra money, he could buy some cement, mix it up, and pour it into the mold and make blocks. A few at a time. Over weeks. Over months.

Plumbing was an improvised business, but he eventually managed it. It didn't come all at once. It took years. He had to get pipe. He hat to dig a well. He had to buy a pump. A hand pump. He had to build a tank and position it on the roof. My father remembers the morning routine at this house. He'd go out in the morning, and crank the pump. Eventually, the tank on the roof would be filled, and some water would spill out an overflow on the top, letting him know he was done. Now gravity would provide running water to the sinks. Until this was all arranged, there was no running water in the house. No fawcets to turn and have something come out. The move away from the outhouse had to wait until a flushing toilet could be installed. It was one of the late innovations. Even after all this was eventually arranged, there was no hot water unless you heated it on a stove. But maybe hot water isn't quite as important when you live so close to the equator.

The house was not a large thing. It was as big as it needed to be to house a husband, wife, and three sons. My father remembers living in the same room with his brothers, so it was probably a two bedroom house. No garage, of course, nor any superfluous spaces of that nature. Who had cars? Who could afford the extra materials for an office space or a 'bonus' room, as they call it nowadays? No one in this town, that's for sure. Well, that left most of the plot to remain 'unimproved' as just a field of grass. My grandfather got the idea to make that field useful. He bought seeds, and planted fruit trees. These trees had just been producing good quantities of viable fruit for a couple of years when my grandfather left his country, but they were a long-term improvement plan. Other things produced much more quickly. Like Corn.

A whole back yard planted with corn. My father remembered what it was like when the corn was harvested. Corn bread. Corn muffins. Corn soup. Corn on the cob. Corn tamales. Corn everything. For weeks it seemed that every dish was a corn dish. My grandfather's brother bought a hand grinder. He sold ground corn during the off-season to make ends meet. My grandfather got a sack of ground corn in the exchange. It was mostly a deal to help the brother. Family is important, and no few of the citizens of this town were family. When a company like the sugarcane factory went into business, entire families would move there to work. You might have thirty members of your family right there in the same community. Everyone helped everyone.

Sooner or later, the corn ran out. My father was happy when this happened, because he was tired of eating corn, and he was too young to fully understand how eating corn for several weeks had saved the family a lot of money. When the corn ran out, my grandfather's brother would grind things for people using his grinder. Not everyone had a grinder, so just owning such a device could provide income. He'd go around grinding things for folks, earning maybe a penny for his effort. I hope I never have to work as hard as my ancestors did in order to get by.

It wasn't always corn that got planted in the back yard. It was whatever seeds my grandfather could get or felt like trying out. Each year brought a new mystery crop. The haphazard planting cycle created an unintentional but quite beneficial crop rotation. The land in the backyard was exceedingly fertile. As things got better, bigger investments were possible. Livestock were added to the vegetables and fruit. A pig for Winter, fattened all year and eaten on Nocha Buena. Chickens for eggs. Food planted and harvested to feed the family during the off-seasons, when money was tight. The margin of life became a little bit wider. A little bit more could be saved each year.

Not enough to pay for immigration. They wanted a thousand dollars in the bank, back then. You had to prove yourself solvent in order to come to the United States. You had to do other things, too, but the thousand dollars was the sticker. It was no small amount of money back then. He didn't have it. All his scrimping and saving would never get it. But there were ways around such things.

There was a man in town. The nature of this man is somewhat mysterious, but at the very least he was a loan shark. The deal was like this: He gave you a thousand dollars. You'd transfer this money to a bank so that you could show that you had a thousand dollars in the bank. Then, that requirement met, you sent the money back. Then you made payments for an agreed upon period of time. I'm not sure exactly how long, but I have the impression it was at least a year, maybe more. It wasn't a fair deal, but it was the only deal around. There was no other way a lower-class Cuban was going to be able to live in the U.S.

So the deal was made. Grandpa came to the U.S. first, alone, and settled accounts. He wasn't able to get a job as a welder here in the states. Not right away. So it was washing dishes and cleaning rooms and whatever he could find. Eventually, he was ready. Across comes grandma and their three sons. Across to America, the land of opportunity.

What ever happened to the 'family farm?' That is, my grandfather's house and back yard?

He rented it out to his brother at a reasonable rate. Presumably competitive with company housing, else no one would want to rent it. He needed the rental income to help get his family established in the states.

Shortly after grandpa came across to the U.S., there was a big political upheaval in Cuba. The Cuban government was a fairly corrupt entity. No small part of that corruption was fostered by U.S. investors who paid off the Cuban leaders so they could have their way to the detriment of the Cuban people. Batista was a terrible leader, and the whole regime was a sick one. A few lived like kings while most of the population clutched to a subsistance existence. It was not clear to my father exactly how hard my grandfather worked in order to get ahead even by inches. He only knew that his Dad was never around. Always off somewhere. The food grown in the backyard made the difference between pennies saved and dimes saved.

Well, there was a man who changed everything for the Cuban people. A freedom fighter who wept for the common man. He came out of the mountains and he ousted the corrupt, capitalistic regime. The fat cats who lived their fat-cat lives weren't too happy with this, but the common man, the poor citizens of the country- they rejoiced. The name Castro was on the lips of every poor person striving for a freer life. Freedom from the threat of homelessness, joblessness, and hunger.

An early decree by the new leader of Cuba was designed to abolish the terrible hold that evil landlords had on their oppressed renters. Anyone who lived in a rented property could apply to the government, and that property would be handed over to them, free of charge. The landlords had oppressed the people for too long, and such inequity was about to come to an end.

My father's brother made the appropriate application. Ownership of my grandfather's home and land was transferred to him.

This was a pretty good deal for him, and I can see why he would do it. He acquired a house that he didn't have to build or buy. The house came with a nice back yard full of fruit trees and fertile soil. Well, he was benefitting from these things already, but now he didn't have to pay for it. They were his.

In the United States, my grandfather was not entirely happy to have the thin revenue stream from Cuba cut off as he was struggling to make ends meet in a new country. He made it, though, and eventually he even secured the Holy Grail. He got a job as a welder, working for a shipyard. Hardly a high-class job, it was a significant step up from washing dishes and mopping floors. He would weld for the rest of his working life, and be glad of it.

His brother's good deal of acquiring the house didn't stay good for very long. Microfarming was outlawed. The land was subdivided and given to other people who had no land. It was deemed that he didn't need a whole house to himself, and he was forced to share it. The sugarcane concern that the town was centered on faltered, and soon he was barely scraping by. He was not alone. In the end, the lives of the workers in this company town failed to improve. Before, they were all poor... but some had a little more, and some had a little less. Now they all had the least possible- the government mandated minimum guarantee. The family that remained in Cuba and who were unable to make the harrowing journey to the United States lived in part on what they were provided by the government, and in part on aid packages sent at regular intervals from their relatives who were living in the U.S.

Letters would come, advising of the important needs of the day. They probably sounded a lot like letters from Military personnel serving overseas. "Please send toothpaste. Please send toilet paper. Please send socks. Please send underwear." The Cuban-American community is a strong one. They love and remember each other. They support their families. Packages are expensive to send, especially for people who have little enough themselves. A woman might clean toilets all day, babysit kids at night, and earn an income that most consider poverty-level. And from her thin share, she shaves a thinner share, and sends it to the family still in Cuba. "Here is your toothpaste. Here are some socks. God Bless You."

My grandparents retired, eventually. They owned their home free and clear. They owned their car free and clear. There were two fruit trees in the back yard, but they were there for pleasure, not survival. My grandfather had a quarter of a million dollars in the bank when he retired, invested in rotating certificates of deposit. We did not know this until both my grandparents contracted Alzheimers and their children were forced to take control of their affairs. My grandfather had always lived a frugal life, and that did not change when he moved to the United States. He still saved every penny he could save. He ate the cheapest food he could buy. They never went out to eat. The children's toys were rehabilitated from junk heaps or they weren't toys at all. Bottle caps or milk jug caps that could be stacked in exciting patterns. The television in the house had been recovered from a junk pile and repaired by my grandfather. It was one of those old ones where the picture shrank down to a point of light when you shut it off, and glowed there for a while. When you turned it on, you had to wait for it to heat up before you could see anything. The carpet and furniture were as old as the house. Nothing new was ever bought when something old could do the job.

Grandma went blind and was blind for about ten years before she finally died. Grandpa is still hanging on, though he has no idea who anyone is. His three sons alternate days to visit and spend time with him. A couple of live-in 'nurses' give him his medicines, cook his food, and put him to bed. He's not sure who they are, but he's used to having them around the house. The sons have installed new carpet, remodeled the kitchen, and put in air conditioning. Grandpa's always trying to shut the air off. They had to put a lock on the thermostat. Even bewildered, he knows a luxury when he sees one. The nurses aren't real nurses. They're just old cuban women who take care of even older folks so they can earn money. A little of that money goes to Cuba each month, in the form of mailed goods. Toothpaste. Socks. Whatever.

My grandfather will die soon. He's in his 90's, and we wonder if he'll make it to 100 before the end. I personally hope not. He's not really enjoying his life anymore. I don't want to see him suffer like my grandmother did. Blind, in pain, and in a world she didn't understand. That's not living. I hope there's a good place for him to go to after it's all over. I think he deserves it.

This is the story of my grandfather.

And the family farm.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Now they all had the least possible- the government mandated minimum guarantee."

Please note that this is not a result of failure of the idea - it is a result of a very large and powerful country nearby making a concerted effort to grind a small poor and powerless country down for business reasons. It is official US policy.

That is a vital part of the narrative you left out. One can only speculate how things would have been different without that 50-year effort by the US, which continues to this day.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:26 AM

DREAMTROVE

Perhaps he should get a girlfriend.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Now they all had the least possible- the government mandated minimum guarantee."

Please note that this is not a result of failure of the idea - it is a result of a very large and powerful country nearby making a concerted effort to grind a small poor and powerless country down for business reasons. It is official US policy.

That is a vital part of the narrative you left out. One can only speculate how things would have been different without that 50-year effort by the US, which continues to this day.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Hello,

The U.S. restrictions on travel and trade with Cuba have been incredibly hurtful to the people of Cuba. However, they do not stand alone as failures of the system.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Perhaps he should get a girlfriend.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Hello,

I do not understand this comment.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 5:43 AM

BYTEMITE

The Soviet Union was strong enough and far enough away from the U.S. that no such embargo could be enforced. It's likely that the Soviets did do better than Cuba because of this, and the GDP was higher in 1989 than the US, and the USSR had more laborers put to work than the US.

Yet because of corruption that happened among local party planner liaisons, often goods and services were in short supply. Only the rich members of the inner party could be said to live comfortably and securely, using the GNP of the Union for imports, an arms race, and to fund other cultural revolutions. Eventually a secondary underground economy began to take form due to the average citizen having difficulty securing goods needed to make ends met, and the economy was decentralized in 1965 out of necessity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Soviet_economic_reform

A similar problem can be found in China.

This is not to say that capitalism is good or planned or socialized economies are all bad - the idea was invented with good intentions. The problem comes in with giving only certain individuals the power to determine the course of that economy. (Which of course is a problem that exists in capitalism as well)

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The Soviet Union was strong enough and far enough away from the U.S. that no such embargo could be enforced. It's likely that the Soviets did do better than Cuba because of this, and the GDP was higher in 1989 than the US, and the USSR had more laborers put to work than the US.

Yet because of corruption that happened among local party planner liaisons, often goods and services were in short supply. Only the rich members of the inner party could be said to live comfortably and securely, using the GNP of the Union for imports, an arms race, and to fund other cultural revolutions. Eventually a secondary underground economy began to take form due to the average citizen having difficulty securing goods needed to make ends met, and the economy was decentralized in 1965 out of necessity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1965_Soviet_economic_reform

A similar problem can be found in China.

This is not to say that capitalism is good or planned or socialized economies are all bad - the idea was invented with good intentions. The problem comes in with giving only certain individuals the power to determine the course of that economy. (Which of course is a problem that exists in capitalism as well)

Hello,

An astute observation, Byte. It is notable that there are still some rich fat-cats in Cuba, either in government or in close association with government bigwigs. And there is still a black market for the acquisition of goods outside the official economy.

Corruption in government, Incompetence in government, and a failure to represent the needs and desires of the citizenry appear to be common themes of failure in any system of government.

I must imagine that if the hero of the revolution had been a benevolent man, things would have worked out much better from the start.

However, he was not benevolent. And even when he tried to help, he enacted reforms based on ideology rather than information, and made a series of disastrous choices that thoroughly screwed over the citizenry in the long run. Had he made choices with the informed input and consent of the citizenry rather than arbitrarily made decisions based on what he knew to be best in his heart, the people would have fared far better.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I may not have read this closely enough because I was not expecting what appears to me to be an immigrant success story. I was expecting to see something that explained to me your obsession with Freedom, and specifically how it seems to be threatened almost daily.

"My grandparents retired, eventually. They owned their home free and clear. They owned their car free and clear. There were two fruit trees in the back yard, but they were there for pleasure, not survival. My grandfather had a quarter of a million dollars in the bank when he retired, invested in rotating certificates of deposit."

It ends "worse" for a lot of people, especially given from where your very resourceful grandfather started from.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, it certainly explains why Tony is so interested in protecting the wealthy.

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I may not have read this closely enough because I was not expecting what appears to me to be an immigrant success story. I was expecting to see something that explained to me your obsession with Freedom, and specifically how it seems to be threatened almost daily.

"My grandparents retired, eventually. They owned their home free and clear. They owned their car free and clear. There were two fruit trees in the back yard, but they were there for pleasure, not survival. My grandfather had a quarter of a million dollars in the bank when he retired, invested in rotating certificates of deposit."

It ends "worse" for a lot of people, especially given from where your very resourceful grandfather started from.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

Hello,

Success did not come to everyone who came over from Cuba. However, the Cuban immigration experience is among the most successful I know of in recent history. There are, of course, destitute Cuban Americans who live lives no better than what they had in the old country.

I think the success of the Cuban immigration experience stemmed from the fact that the community held strong bonds of mutual support, even outside of families.

For those still in Cuba, they have had an interesting experience with the concept of Freedom.

They went from an oppressive, corrupt capitalist society that ground them down to an oppressive, corrupt communist society that ground them down. I could go into some detail about the lack of freedoms in Cuba, but suffice to say that you can and will be harassed/imprisoned/killed for saying the wrong thing. The government network is insinuated deeply into every neighborhood, where one of your neighbors is an official government snitch, and any number are unofficial snitches.

If ten people meet to talk about something, there is government interest in what is being said.

The Cuban experience in Cuba has been the experience of having a parade of leaders who take turns screwing you over.

The experience in the United States, while far from perfect, has been a substantial improvement in almost every quarter.

But the idea that you can lose your freedom is not an abstract concept to Cuban immigrants and their descendants. It is History, and History informs the Future. There is constant vigilance and concern.

It is not forgotten that in the old days, when it was capitalism that ground down the people, such capitalism was informed by U.S. interests and policies. That oppression is not forgotten.

And it is not forgotten the oppression that followed. The one the people invited upon themselves with open arms and cheers of revelry. A revolution and reformation that was worse than anything they had experienced prior.

Freedom is threatened daily. The only thing that changes from person to person is how you react to it, and how much you let it worry you. For some people, it is a faraway concern that will sort itself out. For others, the threat feels like a personal presence. The shadow of yesterday threatening your current life.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, it certainly explains why Tony is so interested in protecting the wealthy.

Hello,

I have no interest in protecting the wealthy that does not extend to every single other person.

What are you trying to say?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:58 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Anthony

You may not be aware of this, but Cuba has zero or very, very limited strategic resources. Little iron. No coal, gas or oil. No diamonds or other gemstones. No precious metals. No rare earths.

To be a modern economy it must import these things. To import these things it must export other things. What Cuba has to export are high-value agricultural products, like sugar and tobacco. Cuba is entirely dependent on imports and exports to maintain even a basic economy.

The US embargo, emplaced as a near total commercial, economic, and financial embargo in February 1962 was intended to strangle the Cuban economy to death. To pretend otherwise is false. In addition to the embargo, Cuba was expelled from the OAS and hemispheric sanctions were imposed. Additionally, the US has forbidden other states notably the EU from trading with the US if they trade with Cuba.

The USSR carried the Cuban economy until it fell. Yep, those horrible Soviets kept the Cuban economy and its people alive, while the freedom-loving (or perhaps greedom-loving) US ensnared the world in a global scheme to kill it.

And you pick the side of the US in this. That's interesting.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:14 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Freedom is threatened daily. The only thing that changes from person to person is how you react to it, and how much you let it worry you. For some people, it is a faraway concern that will sort itself out. For others, the threat feels like a personal presence. The shadow of yesterday threatening your current life.

With your family's story and where you live now I would think you would be one of the people who is critical of anyone who complains about how hard life is in the US, "you have no idea how good you have it." You have roots, firsthand accounts of how bad another gov can be, one you could have been raised in, yet having escaped that you feel like your freedom is threatened - why? Maybe you are one of those "glass is half empty and it's dirty and I don't even like glass" people? Hmmm.. maybe... do you maybe feel guilty? That deep down you didn't do anything to deserve it?

I was born and raised here, 4th generation US. I don't take freedom for granted, but it's usually in the context of, "I wish those folks could have the same freedoms." It's not absolute, and as you so rightly have pointed out, Freedom defined is different for almost everyone... but I rarely feel a lack of it or restricted in my reach. Maybe I ask for too little? I don't think so.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"And you pick the side of the US in this. That's interesting."

Hello,

The only side I picked in all this was the side of the Cuban people.

If it has escaped you that I'm critical of the United States, then you haven't been paying attention.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"do you maybe feel guilty? That deep down you didn't do anything to deserve it?"

Hello,

I don't feel guilty in the sense that you suggest. My family has certainly worked long and hard to get where they are today.

But I feel keenly that Freedom is a thing easily taken, surrendered, or given away. It is a thing worth protecting, and worth looking after.

"I wish those folks could have the same freedoms."

So do I. But knowing that there are people worse off doesn't make me feel safe or complacent. Of course, I don't go around shouting about the sky falling, either. But I think about these things, and write about these things, and when I have the opportunity, I exert what influence I'm able to nudge things in the direction of more freedom, not less.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:40 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"To be a modern economy it must import these things. To import these things it must export other things. What Cuba has to export are high-value agricultural products, like sugar and tobacco. Cuba is entirely dependent on imports and exports to maintain even a basic economy."

Hello,

Every island has the problem of trade being vital. Cuba is no different. The good thing about Cuba is that their strong agricultural base used to mean that they had the capacity to feed everyone.

Their primary exports are Sugar, Medical Producs, Nickel (my other grandfather was once employed by the Nicaro Nickel Company, in fact), Tobacco, and Coffee.

They import Petroleum, various food products, Machinery, and Chemicals.

Primary trade partners include Canada (one of the biggest) China, the Netherlands, Venezuela, and Spain.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"The USSR carried the Cuban economy until it fell. Yep, those horrible Soviets kept the Cuban economy and its people alive,"

Hello,

The relationship between the USSR and Cuba was not dissimilar to the relationship between the US and Israel. One could draw a lot of parallels.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:30 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thanks for sharing the story of your family's farm, Anthony.

I have always been curious about Cuba and wanted to visit. There is no embargo for Australians, only that it is difficult to get to because of the embargo. Also it is a long way away. A hell of a long way unless you are already touring central/South America.

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 11:39 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Magons,

Thank you.

I should note that Cubans in America periodically visit their families in Cuba, and have throughout the Embargo. It is an expensive, uncomfortable, sidewindy trip. You essentially had to go to another country and then go to Cuba from that country.

If you ever do visit Cuba, you will probably find it a beautiful place rich in culture. The visitor areas are very nice.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:58 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

That is what I have heard. A very interesting culture from all accounts.

Sounds like the great socialist revolution was a disappointment to your family, Anthony. I can see why you have your opinions on collectivism. Do you think there is room for something imbetween all state own/no property and all individual ownership?

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 2:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
That is what I have heard. A very interesting culture from all accounts.

Sounds like the great socialist revolution was a disappointment to your family, Anthony. I can see why you have your opinions on collectivism. Do you think there is room for something imbetween all state own/no property and all individual ownership?

Hello,

Yes, I hope so. I'd be interested in hearing the details of such an idea, because I suspect that's our ultimate destination and I want to know what it will look like.

I want to see something that balances maximum individual liberty against the well being of society at large, with careful regard given to each.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, I said that it explains why you protect the wealthy because - in a system of ownership, your grandfather successfully applied the owner's mantra: Acquire, hold; acquire, hold... repeat as often as necessary.

It is a lesson burned deep as a survival skill.

However, I have you say that you seem inconsistent about "freedom". While you talk about the loss of political freedoms in Cuba (free speech, freedom of association) the thing that really seems grate on your nerves is "taxes". And while you recognize that is was the sugar companies (under the thumb of US investors and bankers and the US army) which made Cuba so difficult a place to live, the whole notion of "profit" seems to escape your ire. Because, as I said, your grandfather successfully employed the ownership mantra.

The other thing I detect is a whiff of family betrayal... It seems to me the family story is that the Castro government corrupted your grandfather's brother by offering him the family farm.

Interesting story. I should tell you our family's stories some day.

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 7:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Anthony was telling us the story of his family. Then Kiki and Signe swoop in and diss on the whole shabang, Signe slightly redeeming her contributions to the thread at the end but still being a bit snotty in her previous posts. Why do people feel the need to do that? there are ways to ask Anthony these questions or point the USSR's connections to Cuba and the US embargo and its flaws without being unkind or belittling his family's experience.

My uncle went to Cuba some years ago, late 90s, had to sneak in, and stayed for a couple of weeks, had a brief love affair with a woman there, never told us much about it, I suppose it was over before it started. One of my former junior high girls at church, M who is now in 9th grade, came from Cuba when she was a tiny thing, her family came over here and they are only allowed to go back and visit once every three years. I don't like that because I think once a year would be nice, catch up with the cousins etc. We have a lot of Cuban families at my church, we've got services in English and Spanish etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 8:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"However, I have you say that you seem inconsistent about "freedom". While you talk about the loss of political freedoms in Cuba (free speech, freedom of association) the thing that really seems grate on your nerves is "taxes"."

Hello,

No, Signy. I have spoken loudly and long on these forums about all abuses of Freedoms.

Taxes are one of your special concerns, but they are only one of many for me. I have shared my deep concern is that taxes be fair, representative of the desires of the people, and not used as a punitive tool. If rich people aren't paying their fair share, then I would be happy to see them do it, but that's all.

You consistently declare that I am a great defender of the rich simply because I do not wish to punish them. And perhaps also because you see any acquisition as an evil act.

My grandfather raised himself and his family from a position of poverty through unrelenting hard work. Work the likes of which I am never likely to endure. He was made of sterner stuff than I am, and I am deeply grateful for all that he acquired on behalf of his inheritors- acquisitions that came only at the expense of his sweat and blood.

If you see some wrong in his actions or his life, then you see him from a perspective I am incapable of sharing. Doubtless there are successful men who have achieved their success by drinking the blood of other men, by wounding them and using them and climbing over them. My grandfather never bettered himself at someone else's expense. He was very lucky, and he had help from friends and family, and he also worked very, very hard.

I look forward to hearing about your family farm.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:18 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

I agree, Rione. A bit of an attack going on, not sure why.

We all see things through the prism of our life experiences and the experiences of our ancestors. These are the things that shape the way we see things and why we all see things differently. Stories like Anthonys should be a conduit to enable us to step inside each others shoes and least see why we have the views we do, even if we disagree with one another.

Better to hear Anthony's story and try to understand why, than have the usual 'you're wrong' 'no you are wrong' volley that we see so often here.

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Monday, September 19, 2011 9:14 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Hi Anthony,

This post is not going to be as timely, since I've written it up twice and somehow it got dumped when posting.

I think the confusion may lie in the fact that you choose or find yourself characterizing actions such as a graduated tax code, as "punishing" the rich.

That is your lens.

Somebody posted in the "let him die" thread that there is a social contract, and I think that that fits my lens.

The United States provides infrastructure, stable currency, patent law which theoretically extendes beyond borders, property law so that you can own and be protected in your assets, a stable environment in which you and your business can thrive. For that we want our cut. The terms are much more equitable than your given record label.

You stated in the "let him die" thread that we need to weigh our decision carefully before we "rob" from an individual for the benefit of society. Again, that's your characterization.

While I think we should absolutely be wary of such decisions, so that we don't punish, so that we don't rob, making the decision to take a cut so that we can continue to renew our infrastructure, which includes schooling for a competent and innovative workforce, which includes roads and bridges, which includes manufacturing at home, so that your company and others can continue to sell to a plush consumer base, is not Robbery.

And as we have discussed a long time back, I maintain that businesses reap more benefit from our infrastructure than any individual, and as such should contribute more to its well-being, from those roads, to our court system, and on and on.

I think what makes the word "robbery" inviting is that the terms keep changing, that the contract keeps being rewritten. But this rewriting has trended for the last 30 years, as lower taxes for the wealthy and big business and less and less regulation on their practices.

Now, when we expect the put-upon wealthy to put in a bigger portion than what they had to yesterday, that is looked upon as theft of some kind. Pay no attention to the fact that companies and individuals were quite happy to get into the game when the rules required a bigger share of their earnings, just not happy enough about it not to use their vast resources(in spite of all those prohibitive taxes and regs that were taking it all away) to change the rules.

To me, that's like saying letting the TEMPORARY Bush tax cuts expire is a tax increase. Of course nobody is saying that because that would be pure BS...nevermind.

ON EDIT, this was in response to some posting that resulted from the original thread. I look forward to reading about your grandfather, but haven't gotten to that yet.

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Monday, September 19, 2011 9:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Righteous,

A lot of my reactions in tax discussions involve emotional responses to the use of language, because my understanding of the tax code itself and the history involved is limited.

When I hear someone say, "Let's raise taxes on rich people" the phrase immediately gets my hackles up. Why are you targeting a particular demographic for punishment?

When I hear someone say, "Let's make sure that everyone is paying their fair share of the taxes, and that they have no special loopholes or exemptions that allow them to escape their responsibility" that sounds entirely reasonable to me.

Unfortunately, many discussions about the wealthy use language that sounds like a vendetta is being undertaken, retribution sought, or punishment dealt.

It may be that the mathematics of the situation are no different when you say 'ensure fair taxation!' and 'tax the rich!' but the two phrases garner reactions from me that are as different as night and day.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, September 19, 2011 11:44 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Fair is a word that means vastly different things to different people. I doubt anyone ever felt fairly taxed.

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Monday, September 19, 2011 1:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I've spoken to many people who feel that their taxes are fair when balanced against the services they provide.

But I have heard successful businessmen say that their housekeepers pay more taxes than they do, and I don't think that could be considered fair by any stretch of the imagination.

I hope that the majority of reasonable people can come to common ground on the issue of taxes. What I think people want to avoid is the sensation that one group is taxed disproportionately to the other groups. This is what I think of when I think of fair: That all groups contribute a similar proportion of their income.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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