REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Does Obama have a chance being re-elected?

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 09:16
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Monday, September 19, 2011 5:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I hold no faith on this matter. I've provided more than ample evidence to support my view
Really?????

Where?


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Monday, September 19, 2011 5:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The purpose of taxes is to fund the proper functions of government, not to equalize the wealth. There in lies your problem.

Obama - " you don't raise taxes in a recession "



And no, the govt doesn't have the right to take what ever the hell it wants from us, simply under the guise of ' for the good of the people'.

Sig, No idea what game you're playing, but play w/ yourself.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:26 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The purpose of taxes is to fund the proper functions of government, not to equalize the wealth. There in lies your problem.



Your right, but if the tax code was such that all were paying there fair share the wealth gap would not be getting wider.

Quote:

And no, the govt doesn't have the right to take what ever the hell it wants from us, simply under the guise of ' for the good of the people'.


No not what ever they want, but they can tax, at the rate they wish for the good of the people.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

There's never been a moment when I regretted voting for Obama or wished I'd voted for McCain, but I have regretted some of the things Obama has done.
Amen. It will, of course, be completely ignored that Nick is right, he HAS done a lot; unfortunately the things that get attention are the ones everyone notices and ignores the rest. Nonetheless, he wasn't who I'd have chosen, I didn't vote for him in the primary, everything I worried about him has come to pass, and I'd LOVE a viable primary contender. The problem is not that the votes aren't there for him, it's that, like Riona, too many are unenthused and will just stay home. Which might end up giving us what, from those currently vying for the nomination, might well be the worst President in our history, and may doom our country from recovering.

Oh, Simon,
Quote:

Obama has made the best of an appallingly bad situation. I think a lot of Americans didn't grasp quite how bad the situation was. What's worse is that they still don't hence any action he or Congress to legislate against a reoccurence is labelled class warfare or taxing 'job creators'.
That's the crux of it; Bush was horrible and caused a mess it WOULD take about three terms to completely fix; Obama didn't fix it fast enough, so fear pushed people toward the right and we got the 2010 midterms. They're still scared and are somewhat ignoring what those elected in 2010 are doing, or what the Tea Party/Republicans are PROMISING to do. Hence the danger.
Quote:

You don't want to know how much worse it could get.
I think I do, Simon. When Bush was elected, my husband and I were aghast and feared "the worst". When he was RE-elected we couldn't believe it, given what he'd already done, and he ended up doing worse than even our imaginations could come up with. Now, I THINK I see the potentials, I just hope I don't get to be proven right (OR proven my imagination failed me again).

Anthony,
Quote:

To say that it could have been worse is not saying that it's the best it could be.
Absolutely. I don't think anyone IS saying that; I don't know of anyone here who has voiced unqualified support for Obama or said things are the best they could be. It's only that the alternatives are guaranteed to make it WORSE.

Everything you said about a better candidate goes for me, too, and far more.

Gawd, Sig, did "we" do that? How cool...not that anything will come of it, but if a STRONG, moderate, sensible contender came along, I'd not just vote, I'd WORK for him! Moderate is important because it would need to be someone who could pick up those on the right who are embarrassed about what their party is doing but not turned off by ultra-liberal policies. Sigh...what a dream!

Byte, you have every right to be pissed, most of us are. Just pause for a second and think what will happen on all those issues if one of the extremists currently making up the opposition gets into office!!

Sig, while I agree that Obama has been the disappointment I feared he would be, in no way do I agree that we're "in the same situation as we were when the Presidency changed hands." Things HAVE improved, just not nearly enough, and Obama has compromised away most of the good things he could have accomplished.

But I certainly agree it's partly true that
Quote:

The REALITY is that Obama has been afraid to offend TPTB- banks, insurances, the military and its contractors... yanno, the money-men


Pizmo, I agree with everything you said about Bachman, Perry, and Paul, and I, too, believe they have gotten so far afield, as have all the others, that Romney will win in the end. I've got a different hope, tho'. Mine is that Obama has been chastened, and the fight he's going to have to deal with in 2012 will chasten him further. I hope he will have learned from his experiences and, without the hope of another term, dig in and get some stuff DONE. I always remember him being asked what surprised him most about the job not long after he was in office. His response was just how LITTLE power the President really had...I hope he's learned that fully by now and realizes he needs to take a different tack and not compromise away everything he wants to do, instead find other ways to accomplish things, knowing ANYTHING the Dems propose will be rejected in the House. I never believed he was stupid, just naive and too bent on "bipartisanship".

Anthony, dear, you're trying to REASON with Raptor. You might want to look to that! Bear in mind that he will always say he's provided facts and figures and proven his point, and never do so. He will always claim others have "ignored" and "dismissed" what he provided (which he never did), just as he claimed we were doing about Muslim terrorists, remember? It's how he works; and once he's got you hooked, he'll go on trying to trigger you with absurd statements for as long as he can keep you on the hook. Surely you have better things to do with your time?

Nick, you're doing the same. I'm almost certain Raptor never even read what you put up, he doesn't take the time. He knows where he stands and gives no credence whatsoever to anything which goes against it. He has his talking points and sticks to them, you know all this by now. You've made cogent arguments; have any of them made a dent? Of course not; he knows how to play the game, and that as long as he makes claims which are patently false, he can keep his opponent on line, keep getting responses and get the attention he so craves.

You can snark at me for reminding you both, but I'll go on doing so as long as anyone I respect here engages this hollow repeater of talking points, the child who lives in his own fantasy world and can't speak in other than lines out of movies. And Geezer.

Oh why oh WHY can't we attract just a couple of sensible right wingers? I refuse to believe there are none out there and it would be SO wonderful to be able to have an actual debate with rational people. Until then, I'm not wasting my time with the representatives of the right here who seem unable to post coherently. I'll go on hoping for one or more adults of the conservative persuasion to show up. Hey, I'm allowed to dream!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I kind of agree with Signe about how we're in a very similar situation to where we were when the presidency changed hands. The only difference I see is that we were somewhat uncertain at the time, the economy had just taken a nosedive so we didn't know what would happen next, whereas the economy has been swimming around in the tank for a while now so the feeling isn't new, but its not any better really in the long run.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The purpose of taxes is to fund the proper functions of government, not to equalize the wealth. There in lies your problem.



Your right, but if the tax code was such that all were paying there fair share the wealth gap would not be getting wider.



Again, you can't be serious. The tax code isn't suppose to correct the wealth gap. The GOVERNMENT has far exceeded its budget. At no fault of the 'super rich', why do you think it should be up to them to pay off where the govt screwed up ? This makes no sense.

Quote:


Quote:

And no, the govt doesn't have the right to take what ever the hell it wants from us, simply under the guise of ' for the good of the people'.


No not what ever they want, but they can tax, at the rate they wish for the good of the people.



At a rate why wish? Excuse me ? Again, it's not ' for the good of the people '. We had a bit of a revolution over this once, because some in charge taxed us as THEY wished.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 3:01 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, you can't be serious. The tax code isn't suppose to correct the wealth gap. The GOVERNMENT has far exceeded its budget. At no fault of the 'super rich', why do you think it should be up to them to pay off where the govt screwed up ? This makes no sense.



No you freaking moron. The tax code as is is a large part of the reason for the current wealth gap. Yes, the government has exceeded it's budget, also because of the tax code. The GOP has a ridiculous history of not paying for tax cuts.


Quote:

At a rate why wish? Excuse me ? Again, it's not ' for the good of the people '. We had a bit of a revolution over this once, because some in charge taxed us as THEY wished.


Yes, things such as defense, Medicare and Medicaid, which are the vast majority of the overall budget, are for the good of the people.

Second, the revolution was partly because of taxation without representation. Without representation is the key, not the taxation part.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The purpose of taxes is to fund the proper functions of government, not to equalize the wealth.
What if the proper function of government IS to equalize wealth? Yanno, pry money from the tightfisted holders of debt, and fling it around the nation in order to get the economy going again?

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

The purpose of taxes is to fund the proper functions of government, not to equalize the wealth.
What if the proper function of government IS to equalize wealth? Yanno, pry money from the tightfisted holders of debt, and fling it around the nation in order to get the economy going again?



Our founding fathers didn't fight for redistribution, my friend. It was a bigger concept, one which you want to ignore.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We've been through all this before. The bottom line is that if everyone PAID the taxes the laws require them to, it would be a much fairer system and the gap wouldn't be anything like it is. But everyone DOES NOT. Those in power have continually given the wealthy and corporations loopholes and ways to NOT pay what the original laws said they should. The result is:
Quote:

(Reuters) - Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion, according to Democratic Sens. Carl Levin of Michigan and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, who requested the GAO study.

The report did not name any companies. The GAO said corporations escaped paying federal income taxes for a variety of reasons including operating losses, tax credits and an ability to use transactions within the company to shift income to low tax countries.

With the U.S. budget deficit this year running close to the record $413 billion that was set in 2004 and projected to hit a record $486 billion next year, lawmakers are looking to plug holes in the U.S. tax code and generate more revenues.

Dorgan in a statement called the report "a shocking indictment of the current tax system." Levin said it made clear that "too many corporations are using tax trickery to send their profits overseas and avoid paying their fair share in the United States."

The study showed about 28 percent of large foreign corporations, those with more than $250 million in assets, doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $372 billion in gross receipts, the senators said. About 25 percent of the largest U.S. companies paid no federal income taxes in 2005 despite $1.1 trillion in gross sales that year, they said. http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/08/12/us-usa-taxes-corporations-id
USN1249465620080812
are the facts, and there are more, if needed. The "loopholes" discussion has been going on for some time, and even the Republicans have been willing to close some of them (but only if the tax code is revised so it doesn't cost them any MONEY, of course).

To argue that the wealthy and corporations pay their "fair share" is patently ridiculous, given the facts. We've been here numerous times; each time we've proven the "they pay their fair share" wrong, but it will never make a dent in the claim. So why keep going back there?


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:05 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The 'gap' has next to nothing with how much folks pay in taxes.

The rich PAY far more than their fair share. It's not even debatable.

I'm so fucking sick of the lies and false premises that the Left puts out, pitting Americans against Americans, just so they can promote the socialist utopian b.s.

And oh yeah, Buffett ( and Obama ) lied -

Quote:


WASHINGTON -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett isn’t as undertaxed as he and President Obama seem to think.

Buffett recently said that he paid only $6.9 million in taxes last year -- just 17.4 percent of his earnings, compared to an income tax rate of about 36 percent paid by his employees.

“My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice,” Buffett wrote last month in the New York Times.
Such grousing was enough to convince Obama to name his latest tax-the-rich scheme the “Buffett rule.” But it doesn’t tell the whole story.

And yesterday, Obama invoked Buffett’s name again in his case for imposing higher taxes on the wealthy, when he said: “Middle-class families shouldn’t pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires.’’

“It’s hard to argue against that. Warren Buffett’s secretary shouldn’t pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it,’’ Obama said.

Buffett actually was taxed twice on his investment income.
First, Buffett had to make the money he invested. Those earnings were taxed as corporate income, at about a 35-percent rate.

Then, Uncle Sam took another cut when Buffett invested the money and earned a profit. That’s when Buffett paid the 15 percent capital-gains tax rate.

All told, after combining corporate taxes and capital gains taxes, Buffett forked over about 45 percent of his earnings.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/buffett_math_is_bit_off_7mGzoYiw
PfsJcnWaIoptFJ






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:12 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

The 'gap' has next to nothing with how much folks pay in taxes.



Incorrect, there is a direct correlation, which can be seen since the original Regan tax cuts.

Quote:

The rich PAY far more than their fair share. It's not even debatable.


Again wrong. In regard to total tax burden they do not, this has been shown.

Quote:

I'm so fucking sick of the lies and false premises that the Left puts out, pitting Americans against Americans, just so they can promote the socialist utopian b.s.


No you sick of the facts proving your beliefs wrong. Please don't use words like "Socialist" when you don't even understand what that means.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



There is no direct correlation. None, what so ever.

Taking more $ from " the rich " won't make everyone else better off. Not by a long shot. The problem you continue to have is that you think this all has more to do with $ being taken from the poor and given to the rich, which is a complete fallacy, and instead continue to turn a blind eye to the real issue. The govt is spending too much money. Period.

The rich do pay more than their fair share, and it has been shown. They pay more in taxes as a % than the income they take in.

I know what socialist means, which is exactly why I used it. Trying to insult me to win your argument is simply a sign you've already lost.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



AP: Data shows rich pay more taxes

The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama says he wants to make sure millionaires are taxed at higher rates than their secretaries.

The data say they already are.

"Warren Buffett's secretary shouldn't pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it," Obama said as he announced his deficit-reduction plan this week. "It is wrong that in the United States of America, a teacher or a nurse or a construction worker who earns $50,000 should pay higher tax rates than somebody pulling in $50 million."

On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70 percent of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

In his White House address on Monday, Obama called on Congress to increase taxes by $1.5 trillion as part of a 10-year deficit reduction package totaling more than $3 trillion. He proposed that Congress overhaul the tax code and impose what he called the "Buffett rule," named for the billionaire investor.

The rule says, "People making more than $1 million a year should not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than middle-class families pay." Buffett wrote in a recent piece for The New York Times that the tax rate he paid last year was lower than that paid by any of the other 20 people in his office.

"Middle-class families shouldn't pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires," Obama said. "That's pretty straightforward. It's hard to argue against that."

There may be individual millionaires who pay taxes at rates lower than middle-income workers. In 2009, 1,470 households filed tax returns with incomes above $1 million yet paid no federal income tax, according to the Internal Revenue Service. But that's less than 1 percent of the nearly 237,000 returns with incomes above $1 million.

This year, households making more than $1 million will pay an average of 29.1 percent of their income in federal taxes, including income taxes, payroll taxes and other taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank.

Households making between $50,000 and $75,000 will pay an average of 15 percent of their income in federal taxes.


Lower-income households will pay less. For example, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will pay an average of 12.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. Households making between $20,000 and $30,000 will pay 5.7 percent.

The latest IRS figures are a few years older — and limited to federal income taxes — but show much the same thing. In 2009, taxpayers who made $1 million or more paid on average 24.4 percent of their income in federal income taxes, according to the IRS.

Those making $100,000 to $125,000 paid on average 9.9 percent in federal income taxes. Those making $50,000 to $60,000 paid an average of 6.3 percent.

Obama's claim hinges on the fact that, for high-income families and individuals, investment income is often taxed at a lower rate than wages. The top tax rate for dividends and capital gains is 15 percent. The top marginal tax rate for wages is 35 percent, though that is reserved for taxable income above $379,150.

With tax rates that high, why do so many people pay at lower rates? Because the tax code is riddled with more than $1 trillion in deductions, exemptions and credits, and they benefit people at every income level, according to data from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress' official scorekeeper on revenue issues.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that 46 percent of households, mostly low- and medium-income households, will pay no federal income taxes this year. Most, however, will pay other taxes, including Social Security payroll taxes.

"People who are doing quite well and worry about low-income people not paying any taxes bemoan the fact that they get so many tax breaks that they are zeroed out," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "People at the bottom of the distribution say, 'But all of those rich guys are getting bigger tax breaks than we're getting,' which is also the case."


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


C'mon, Nick, you know he'll never stop using the buzz words he so loves. Silly man.

As to the Buffet article, it's nicely twisted. Buffet said he paid "$6.9 million in taxes last year -- just 17.4 percent of his earnings". Note LAST YEAR. I dunno where they got their "45%", but it has nothing to do with the money he originally earned to make his investments...which could hardly have been "last year". At some point he no doubt worked to earn the money he invested, but when, how, how much did he earn that was taxed at that previous time? None of THOSE has anything to do with "last year" either, and I imagine it's been a long, long time since Buffet worked at anything which resulted in his "earning" wages. Most likely he's been living off what he's invested every year for a long time.

Ergo, Buffet's initial claim that he paid $6.9 million LAST YEAR is perfectly correct. Was a nice try, but not a very good one.

We've been through this "they pay the most taxes", etc., many times. They EARN a vastly higher percentage than everyone else, so of COURSE they pay more taxes than everyone else. But the percentages don't work out.
Quote:

The top 1 percent of earners receive about a fifth of all American income; on the other hand, the top 1 percent of Americans by net worth hold about a third of American wealth.
.....
Wealth-related inequality has also been relatively stable over the last few decades, whereas income-related inequality has been growing since the ’70s.

Why is there more inequality in wealth than in income, both today and yesterday?
Remember that wealth accumulates over time. The highest earners are able to save much of their incomes, whereas lower earners can’t. That means high earners can accumulate more and more wealth as time goes on.

Higher-earning Americans also have the resources to pay for better tax preparation, which helps them reduce their taxes and save even more money. On the tax front, note also that people who have already accumulated wealth stand to earn a lot in capital gains, which are also taxed at a lower rate.

But as I noted above, most of the attention paid to economic inequality pertains to what people are making each hour or each year, not what they already have stored up or what kind of cushion they have to fall back on. Perhaps that’s because most people don’t have a firm grasp of how much they’re “worth,” but they can always look to their paychecks to see how much they have coming in, and can make easier comparisons to their neighbors.

Some responses to the question on Yahoo Answers "Did the ultra-rich earn their money through hard work, or manipulation of politics & the legal system?" clarify the point:
Quote:

The richest 10% own about 95% of all US wealth.
The bottom 90% own about 5% of all US wealth.

Does that mean the richest 10% work 19 times harder than the bottom 90%?

Of course not. In fact, the hardest working people I know are often poor.

So why do conservatives defend this status quo by claiming that liberals are simply lazy? Or envious? Do they really fail to see any other alternatives? Do they think the ultra-rich simply work THAT much harder, or can cons admit that the ultra-rich manipulate the system to their advantage in ways a middle class American never could?

Quote:

At this stage of the game, lot's of the ultra rich did NOTHING to get their wealth other than having been born to industrious or clever parents who were able to earn their dough through any number of combinations of what you suggest here.
Quote:

They got their money in many different ways. Some earned it, but if you are talking about super rich, most inherited at least enough for a startup. Pointing to some welfare mother cheating the system out of $15000 a year is a diversion to take attention from the trillions we spend to subsidize business and the trillions of abuse they heap on top of that.
Quote:

You got it in one, they manipulated politics and the legal system



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:28 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

There is no direct correlation. None, what so ever.



Then why did the wealth gap start to increase with the Reagan tax cuts?

Quote:

Taking more $ from " the rich " won't make everyone else better off. Not by a long shot. The problem you continue to have is that you think this all has more to do with $ being taken from the poor and given to the rich, which is a complete fallacy, and instead continue to turn a blind eye to the real issue. The govt is spending too much money. Period.


It is not to make people's lives better, it is to help pay for the government programs that are in effect right now. No, the government is not spending to much. If anything it is not spending enough. Look at all the cuts in spending in the EU, they have not helpped the situation at all.

Quote:

The rich do pay more than their fair share, and it has been shown. They pay more in taxes as a % than the income they take in.


Yes, for federal income tax. You seem to think that is the only tax there is. One example is SS tax which is only up to a certain amount. Not to mention all the flat taxes such as gas tax and sales taxes that are not progressive taxes and affect the middle and lower class the most. So just because you can show the rich are paying a higher % on federal does not mean it is a fair share. Again you can see that just by the wealth gap.

Quote:

I know what socialist means, which is exactly why I used it. Trying to insult me to win your argument is simply a sign you've already lost.


If you did you would have not brought it up because it has nothing to do with tax rates.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



This is pointless. You're impervious to facts, logic, and reason. And your lack of understanding this country's history is a pretty big hindrance as well.

The European countries are having to cut spending BECAUSE they spent too much in the past. Look at Greece ! For you to even think that we're not spending enough, it only shows you have no clue of what you're talking about.

None.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:50 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

This is pointless. You're impervious to facts, logic, and reason. And your lack of understanding this country's history is a pretty big hindrance as well.



Funny from someone who forgot the whole taxation "without representation" part.

So, if you have the facts on your side, explain why the wealth gap has widened since the Reagen tax cuts. If it was not the cuts then what caused that?

Quote:

The European countries are having to cut spending BECAUSE they spent too much in the past. Look at Greece ! For you to even think that we're not spending enough, it only shows you have no clue of what you're talking about.


Yes, but how many rounds have we seen in Greece now? With all the spending cuts in the EU and Great Brittan that have been done where is the improvment in the economies? There have been none. Greece keeps cutting, but it is never enough because they also keep having a lose in revinues. Why?, because as they cut programs people have less money to spend, which means business are taking in less, and not hiring. Greece is so desperate now they are having to raise taxes across the board as well, which I know you will agree is not going to help.

No, we are most likely not spending enough now. Government spending should be counter cyclic. That means spending more in down times to stimulate the economey, and spending less in good times as a slowing effect to prevent bubbles. That is Macro 101!

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nick, give it up, you know it will get nowhere.

I'm only going to post once more on this, because it IS pointless. Warren Buffet explained in his own words:
Quote:

Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.

To understand why, you need to examine the sources of government revenue. Last year about 80 percent of these revenues came from personal income taxes and payroll taxes. The mega-rich pay income taxes at a rate of 15 percent on most of their earnings but pay practically nothing in payroll taxes. It’s a different story for the middle class: typically, they fall into the 15 percent and 25 percent income tax brackets, and then are hit with heavy payroll taxes to boot.
.....
In fact, 88 of the 400 in 2008 reported no wages at all, though every one of them reported capital gains. Some of my brethren may shun work but they all like to invest. (I can relate to that.) http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/stop-coddling-the-super-rich
.html

That refutes the article about Warren Buffet, in his own words.

The rest isn't worth dealing with; the right's insistence that the wealthy pay too much taxes is simplistic but will always be their rallying cry. That will never change. Attempting to reason with them and point out the complexities that make that untrue is a waste of time.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The wealthy not paying their "fair share"( which is clearly a blatant LIE ) isn't what took us down this road, Niki. It's govt spending too much. If you have a pain in one foot, you don't jab the other foot with a knife , just to make the pain more even. You address the problem directly, and heal what's hurting in the 1st place.

Govt is spending too much, and the politicians are looking to the dumb masses to help bail their sorry butts out of a jam by pandering to the class warfare zealots.

And you gullible , useful idiots are falling for it, hook, line and sinker.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:27 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:Govt is spending too much, and the politicians are looking to the dumb masses to help bail their sorry butts out of a jam by pandering to the class warfare zealots.


Spending to much on what? Defence, I will agree with you on that. Medicare and Medicaid, what are the alternatives. Other government spending is small change comparied to these three.

Oh, and before the Bush tax cuts and the wars we had had deficits.

See you keep saying government is spending to much, but don't explain why government spending is two high. Before you say it, it is not because it spends more then it takes in because increasing the tax rate would deal with that.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The list of things the govt is wasting our $ on far exceeds my patience to delve into here. Seriously, how do you even ask such a question ?

Wanna know ? Here, knock yourself out - http://www.cagw.org/


And I said government, not JUST Obama. If Bush wasted our tax $, does that mak


e it more or less acceptable for Obama to come along afterwards and waste even more ?

Think about it, before you answer.


And as for this..

Quote:

See you keep saying government is spending TOO much, but don't explain why government spending is TOO high. Before you say it, it is not because it spends more then it takes in because increasing the tax rate would deal with that.


I have no real idea what the hell you're even trying to say here... Govt SPENDS more than it takes in? ( Yes, that's true...) increasing the tax rate would " deal with that " ?

Are you out of your ever loving mind ? WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO TAX ENOUGH TO PAY FOR THE DEBT WE HAVE !!! Unless you're for 100% tax rates, even that wouldn't " deal with that ".

Good grief!






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The list of things the govt is wasting our $ on far exceeds my patience to delve into here.

So in other words, you don't want to look at in any further, you just want to spew talking points.

Hell lets just talk about Defence and Medicare/Medicaid which are take up the vaste majority of the budget, everything else is small change.

Quote:

And I said government, not JUST Obama. If Bush wasted our tax $, does that make it more or less acceptable for Obama to come along afterwards and waste even more ?


I did not say Bush wasted our tax dollars, I said that he cut taxes which added to the deficit.

...but no it would not be. Stimulus spending is not waste.

Quote:

I have no real idea what the hell you're even trying to say here... Govt SPENDS more than it takes in? ( Yes, that's true...) increasing the tax rate would " deal with that " ?

Are you out of your ever loving mind ? WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO TAX ENOUGH TO PAY FOR THE DEBT WE HAVE !!! Unless you're for 100% tax rates, even that wouldn't " deal with that ".



Yes, we have enough people to deal with the current short fall, without even close to a 100% tax rate, hence the call for letting the Bush tax cuts expire. That combined with ending that current war and other cuts to defence could solve, or come damn close to solving the current debt crisis.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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