Does the .22 LR Have a Place in Zombie Defense? by AnthonyT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I was thinking maybe taking a .22 rifle to a high place such as your house's roof might be a good idea. You could easily bring thousands of rounds of ammunition with you, and kill Zombies all day. Providing you can hit and penetrate the skull, that is.

I think it should be possible to do so within 50 yards, but I am not sure exactly how much energy it takes to penetrate the bone and tissue of the undead human head, or how much energy is left at various range increments.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:19 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
A .22 will pierce the skull, just not at long range. The nice thing is the .22 will not exit the skull, it will just bounce around inside it.

That is precisely the reason the .22 is the preferred weapon of professional hit men. Small, easy to carry and conceal, not very loud, even less loud with a suppressor. The idea is that you put two in the skull, and there's no coming back from that.

I've been trying to justify a .22 version of an AK, just because it's one of the weapons systems I'm most familiar and comfortable with, and the .22 would be fantastic for training. And I can buy one for about the price of 2000 rounds of 7.62x39 ammo.

If a .22 from you roof won't kill a zombie, it should definitely convince him (or her - we don't judge!) to leave the area at a fast shamble (shuffle/amble = shamble).

My zombie defense perimeter starts at around 500 meters with a sturdy PSL; it's not really a "sniper" rifle, they called it a "designated marksman's rifle" in the Soviet bloc. 7.62x54r shells, high speed, makes a hell of a mess and has the range to really "reach out and touch someone". Further in, the "Noisy Nagant" takes over on iron sights, just because fast target acquisition is so much easier for me on open sights than through a scope, but the Nagant still uses the same ammo as the PSL, and I buy it by the thousands because it's dirt cheap and damned reliable Soviet-era stuff.

Closer in still, the 7.62x39 chorus starts singing. A .22 would make a good bridge between those and the handguns, which work all the way until you're left with edged weapons (swords, machete, axe, bowie knife, bayonet, etc.) Once the zombies have closed in that far, it's usually game over.

Another advantage of a .22: no recoil. You don't lose targeting between shots. There's so little kick you just run down the line from one target to the next with very little downtime trying to pick up the next target in your sights.

These ARE just thought exercises, right?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:29 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Zombies are not a metaphor, Mike. I'm having good clean fun. Zombies are zombies.

I still play pretend at my age.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:24 PM

Pretend. As I say, a thought exercise. You don't really need a .22, or anything else, to protect you from the unreal.

But just in case, it's handy to have a plan. CDC keeps issuing zombie-themed warnings, which is a little bit creepy, just because the Centers for Disease Control isn't exactly known for its sense of humor or being up on its pop-culture references!

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/socialmedia/zombies_blog.asp

So, while zombies are not real, it's better to be prepared, just in case.

A cricket bat is handy, too, I've heard. :)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, September 20, 2011 8:34 PM

It ain't the size of the bullet, it's where ya put it - considering that as a rule zombies are slow, and evading is easier and safer at long ranges, heck yes the venerable 22LR is an effective choice.

My prefered weapon for this use in said caliber is the Ruger 10 22 with 50 round drum/teardrop mags, and a 4x dot scope, quick clean and easy.

The low recoil and wide angle scope (if you know what I mean) would allow even the moderately skilled to mow em down like crazy, and you could carry massive amounts of ammo and refill just about anywhere there's bullets at all.

In fact an inexpensive setup like that would be a perfect thing even for an expert zombie capper to have laying around, since you can tremendously improve the combat effectiveness of even the moderately skilled and thus increase your survival chances by just that much - and should some damn fool go leeroy jenkins, you're not out so much, cause having a couple of the damn things is a wise move for any post apocolyptic arsenal.

Eff the cricket bat though, you wanna keep em AWAY from you, I highly reccommend a shortened boar spear with crossguard - even if they don't go down you can push em around and trip up the others before yankin it back out.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:06 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I think you could kill a zombie (funny) with a .22, but would you want to? The first 20 might be kind of fun but considering just how many there are likely to be even with a small Zombie Apocalypse, I think plinking them from your roof might get a bit old pretty quick. I mean, if we're going to survive an apocalypse, let's at least have a little fun, right? Minimum: I want to see some major splatter. And if I'm not on that roof and out foraging for Dinty Moore in close quarters, I want something forgiving and unforgiving, if you know what I mean.

And I want it to sound cool, like a cobra mustang.

I'll take the endless auto shotgun:

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 3:40 AM

Then get thee hence to the armament shoppe and beg the favor of yon Saiga-12 with 30 round drum mag.

Yes fellowman, that kind of carnage can be had, if you try hard enough.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 4:01 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

I love the smile on the guy's face in the first one. And now my shoulder hurts. But I'm alive, damn it! Bring on the Apocalypse... and make it a big one!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:03 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Frem, :)

Huzzah for Anthony, he gets my coolest person here of the day award, long live pretends, with dice or without dice! My personal preferred method is without dice so I can make the rules with my comrades who are playing with me, but in groups I've come to appreciate the need for dice.

Anyways.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:09 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Frem,

Have you ever seen the American 180?

http://world.guns.ru/smg/usa/american-10-e.html

I wish I owned one. Coolest .22 ever.

Even if only a .22, it's got to have Zombie suppression power.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:15 PM

KIRKULES

I think the only thing a 22LR would be good for is offing yourself as a last resort when the Zombies are gnawing off your leg. You would have to get so close for a 22 to be effective that Zombies would be on you in no time. I don't like the idea of getting close to Zombies primarily because I like wearing expensive Hawaiian shirts and it would ruin my day if Zombie brains got spattered on my favorite Magnum PI Hawaiian shirt.

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Thursday, September 22, 2011 8:04 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Kirk,

Do you have any idea what the range is where the .22 could penetrate a human skull?

Also, do you not have anything to say about the American 180 submachine gun? I thought it was so cool.

Much cooler than Hawaiian shirts. You need long-sleeve shirts to protect yourself. If you were to get a cut or abrasion, the Zombie blood splatter might infect you.

If I'm ready to give up my guayabera for the Apocalypse, Magnum's gotta go, too.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Friday, September 23, 2011 3:24 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Do you have any idea what the range is where the .22 could penetrate a human skull?

I did some research to answer your question and found evidence that has made me reconsider my opinion of the 22LR for Zombie defense. I found a story were a guy tested the penetration of a 22 at 250 and 300 yards using a thawed frozen turkey and three layers of clothes. At 300 yard the round penetrated the clothes and the turkey ending up logged in the skin on the far side of the turkey. At 250 yards the bullet went right through. Pretty impressive performance from such a small round. I always knew the 22 was good at short ranges but it's long range effectiveness was a surprise to me.
I think the full auto 22 is cool but you kind of lose the benefit of the 22 economy if you're spraying 700 rounds a minute.

Quote:

Magnum's gotta go, too.

When you pry it and my Hawaiian shirt off my cold dead body, or I run out of ammo.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 3:57 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
[B
I did some research to answer your question and found evidence that has made me reconsider my opinion of the 22LR for Zombie defense. I found a story were a guy tested the penetration of a 22 at 250 and 300 yards using a thawed frozen turkey and three layers of clothes. At 300 yard the round penetrated the clothes and the turkey ending up logged in the skin on the far side of the turkey. At 250 yards the bullet went right through. Pretty impressive performance from such a small round. I always knew the 22 was good at short ranges but it's long range effectiveness was a surprise to me.

Gotta remember, too, that the M16/M4 combination, with the 5.56 mm ( .223 ) was designed for fighting human foes at 150 yards max range,which is where the DoD research showed that most firefights occur. SO the .22 oughtta give pretty good results against slow moving zombies at that range or in closer. And it's cheaper, and less pain on the shoulder. Not universally reccommended, but still maybe a good choice.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 6:28 PM

Quote:
I think the full auto 22 is cool but you kind of lose the benefit of the 22 economy if you're spraying 700 rounds a minute.

That's my take on pretty much every full-auto handheld weapon. If you can't hit your target with a two- or three-round aimed burst, spray-n-pray really isn't going to help.

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Friday, September 23, 2011 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
[B
I did some research to answer your question and found evidence that has made me reconsider my opinion of the 22LR for Zombie defense. I found a story were a guy tested the penetration of a 22 at 250 and 300 yards using a thawed frozen turkey and three layers of clothes. At 300 yard the round penetrated the clothes and the turkey ending up logged in the skin on the far side of the turkey. At 250 yards the bullet went right through. Pretty impressive performance from such a small round. I always knew the 22 was good at short ranges but it's long range effectiveness was a surprise to me.

Gotta remember, too, that the M16/M4 combination, with the 5.56 mm ( .223 ) was designed for fighting human foes at 150 yards max range,which is where the DoD research showed that most firefights occur. SO the .22 oughtta give pretty good results against slow moving zombies at that range or in closer. And it's cheaper, and less pain on the shoulder. Not universally reccommended, but still maybe a good choice.

Shouldn't really compare the .223 to a .22, though - the charge behind it is hugely different, resulting in far greater bullet speed and far more kinetic energy delivered further downrange.

It's the same idea behind the AK47 and the Dragunov, both of which use a 7.62mm round, but the Dragunov uses far more powder behind that bullet, giving it an effective range of 300 yards or more, while the AK, with the smaller powder charge behind its bullet, has an effective range closer to 100 yards.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

Take a look at the tables near the bottom of the page, where they list muzzle velocities and energy delivered on-target at various ranges, and you'll see what I mean.

I do think I'll be adding more .22LR guns to my arsenal, though. Long guns AND handguns.

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 9:04 AM

Agreed, the A180 would only really be useful in a semi-auto configuration.

I take issue with the calculated ranges of the 7.62x39mm and 7.62x54r however, the avg effective range of the Ak-47 is at least double that, and the Dragunov, not to mention the Mosin Nagant, is good to at LEAST 700 yards, if not more so in the hands of someone skilled.

Also worthy of note for Zombie pacification is the Alliance Accellerator, or Calico M100, although those don't come cheap.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 11:15 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I do think I'll be adding more .22LR guns to my arsenal, though. Long guns AND handguns.

I was thinking the same thing now that Anthonyt put the idea in my head. I was thinking maybe the good old Ruger 10/22 because it's relatively inexpensive and 50 round mags are cheap and plentiful also. I have friends that have had them for years with good reliability if not so good accuracy. My second option if finances allow might be the new 22LR by S&W built on an AR type platform. http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_
750051_765013_-1_757786_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

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Saturday, September 24, 2011 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I do think I'll be adding more .22LR guns to my arsenal, though. Long guns AND handguns.

I was thinking the same thing now that Anthonyt put the idea in my head. I was thinking maybe the good old Ruger 10/22 because it's relatively inexpensive and 50 round mags are cheap and plentiful also. I have friends that have had them for years with good reliability if not so good accuracy. My second option if finances allow might be the new 22LR by S&W built on an AR type platform. http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_
750051_765013_-1_757786_757784_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

I'm leaning towards something like the WASR-22 or GSG "AK-22"

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/41153
7403

and possibly something like the Ruger 22/45 for a handgun.

The beauty of these - for me, anyway - is that in addition to being useful defense weapons, they are also useful TRAINING weapons for some of my other stuff. The AK is the same layout as my other AK-style weapons, so things are exactly where I expect them to be, which is great for familiarization and training (quicker to find charging handle, safety, mag release, etc.), and the 22/45 is the same grip size and angle as a .45 1911, which gives it the same feel in a training situation, without the expense of .45 ammo.

And the 22/45 is even available with a threaded barrel, if a silencer is in your future...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 4:59 AM

DREAMTROVE

I think there are several problems with this defense plan:

1) Maybe nick wants to be up close and personal to deliver his point blank shot to the head, but I prefer Anthony's minimum safe distance approach.

2) I don't think a penetration of the skull by itself will do it. Zombies often have holes in their head, sometimes axe-related. I suspect that if the result is not effective decapitation, whatever BBBRAAIINS the zombie has left will continue to guide it towards the consumption of living flesh.

3) I think Mike's discouragement plan is ill conceived because it relies on the zombie's capacity for logic and instincts of self preservation, which is a weak point.

4) Mike's PSL is a good idea, but not at 500 meters. Sure, you can hit something at that range, but I doubt you can disable a zombie with it until the zombie is much closer.

Quote:
Mike: Once the zombies have closed in that far, it's usually game over.

I would basically concur. I think that the .22 in terms of its ability for total annihilation, which is essentially what you need to stop a zombie, is in a class with the more primitive blunt and sharp instruments that a hapless teenager on a weekend outing looking for sex might happen to be carrying.

5) I'm not pretending either. I'm concerned about the impending zombie apocalypse. For those who think it's impossible, I suggest studying more science

Quote:

I still play pretend at my age.

--Anthony

If you think a .22 will stop the zombie apocalypse you are living in a fantasy world.

While the CDC may not actually believe in zombies, much of our national defense system doesn't believe in inside jobs, conspiracies or toxic pollutants, so the govt. is not really credible on this issue.

Quote:
Frem

It ain't the size of the bullet, it's where ya put it

And we're talking about putting it in a zombie. I don't think where in the zombie is all that important, a simple severing of nerves or arteries is not going to do it. The thing about living zombie tissue is it's alive, It's Alive, IT'S ALIVE!!!!

I concur with Frem that if you're down to cricket bat, you're already too close.

I like Pizmo's auto-shotgun approach I've seen that work in the past.

Saiga 12 looks like it would do for a shopping mall door standoff, at least long enough to get you to a nearby delivery truck.

A Riona a chara,

I think in role playing, dice are essential to ensure fairness, especially to convince players that fairness reigns, but they should be kept to a minimum, but as an effective weapon against the coming zombie apocalypse I say "No Dice."

I am stunned at this point that no one has suggested a rocket launcher, unless I missed it.

I thoroughly recommend you not count on the French approach when using this device

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:12 AM

Here's the thing when discussing zombie apocalypse and zombie defense, though: It's by definition a fantasy. There ARE no hard-n-fast rules of zombies; there are slow zombies, and now fast ones. There are wily ones, and dumb ones. There are zombies where you have to completely destroy the brain, which isn't really alive anyway, and there are zombies where only decapitation will work, which seems like it would leave at the very least a biting, snapping head rolling around.

So a .22 is as valid as anything, since nobody really knows for sure what wouldn't work.

Go to an island in the middle of a lake. Can zombies swim? Wait - never mind; they don't need to! Zombies can just walk across the bottom of the lake, right?

Rig up some fast-spinning blades across your theoretical mall doorway, at neck height, and just leave them on and spinning at all times. YOU know to crawl under, but zombies don't, because they can't do logic, right? So zombies will just keep walking into your spinning meat-saws of death and losing their heads. 'Course, you'll have to get a snow shovel and scrape the piles of remains from the doorway from time to time...

If we're dealing with zombies which can be killed with a headshot that penetrates the skull, a .22 will work. If you have to destroy the brain completely, then nothing but hollowpoints or frangible (exploding) ammo are likely to work, since most high-powered rifle rounds are just going to go right through.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:20 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Shouldn't really compare the .223 to a .22, though - the charge behind it is hugely different, resulting in far greater bullet speed and far more kinetic energy delivered further downrange.

My point wasn't really to compare the rounds. My point was that the DoD considers that most real firefights happen in close- well inside the range that the .22 was considerably effective against those frozen turkeys.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:10 AM

Heheheheh, Mikey, take that idea, pump it fulla meth, attach tits to it, and set it on fire - and you come pretty close to something Harbinger does in Monster Hunter Alpha.
He drives a snowbore through a zombie horde.

I don't suppose most of you know what a snowbore is, especially down there in Texas...
Generally, something like this...
http://www.publiquip.com/DetG.asp?IdNO=729705995

But special mention for the Volvo350BM cause it just LOOKS like a flat out killing machine.

Remember to wear protective eyewear and OSHA approved headgear, now - we wouldn't want any workplace accidents, right ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 9:51 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Frem -- looks like almost as much fun as a railroad rotary snowplow-- they're more fun becuz they're BIGGER!

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 10:14 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Gotta remember, too, that the M16/M4 combination, with the 5.56 mm ( .223 ) was designed for fighting human foes at 150 yards max range,which is where the DoD research showed that most firefights occur.

True, but when I was in basic, back in '71, we were shooting, and hitting, reactive targets out to 600 meters with well-used off-the-rack M16s.

When I work the pits at rifle matches at Quantico, I see folks shoot zombie-brain sized 10 round groups with iron sight M16s from 300yds rapid-fire, and 600yds slow fire.

And speaking of zombie brains... that's the target. I'd have my doubts about some of the AK-based .22s being that accurate at much distance. I know my heavy-barrel Ruger 10/22T can group 1.5" all day at 100yds with the right ammo (ammo selection being very important for .22 acuracy) and the recoil is so light the gun doesn't even move, making followup shots easy. Would need a drop chart and range stakes or a rangefinder though.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 2:19 PM

DREAMTROVE

Mike

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, September 25, 2011 4:20 PM