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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
About that "50% Pay No Taxes" Myth
Monday, September 26, 2011 7:02 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:It’s A Myth That 47% Of Americans Pay No Taxes, In Truth 86% Pay Taxes A favorite talking point used by conservatives to justify giving more tax breaks to the wealthy is that 50% of Americans pay no taxes. The truth is that 86% of Americans pay taxes. The truth is that the talking point that half of all Americans pay no taxes is a misrepresentation. Here is the full quote from the Tax Policy Center ( http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/UploadedPDF/1001289_who_pays.pdf (1) ), Quote:The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year.The 47% statistic is not all Americans pay no taxes, but single filers who will pay no federal income taxes. According to the Center On Budget and Policy Priorities ( http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3505#_ftn10 (2) ), the real reason why 47%-51% of Americans paid no federal income taxes in 2009 is,Quote:The 51 percent figure is an anomaly that reflects the unique circumstances of 2009, when the recession greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes and when temporary tax cuts created by the 2009 Recovery Act — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect. Together, these developments removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired.The combination of the recession and the Obama stimulus cut taxes to low and middle income Americans led to fewer Americans owing federal income tax in 2009. The Tax Policy Center has tried to correct Fox News and the right wing media’s misuse of their research. In April 2010, Howard Glickman of the TPC wrote ( http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2010/04/15/about-those-47-percent-who-pay-%E2%80%9Cno-taxes-%E2%80%9D/ (3)), Quote:Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong. However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong.The actual number of Americans who don’t pay any taxes isn’t half, but 14%. This group of non-taxpayers of any kind is largely composed of the elderly and disabled. The people who don’t pay taxes do so because they can’t work. The myth that the wealthy are carrying the tax burden for America is used to justify tax cuts for the rich. Conservatives use the inaccurate statistic hand in hand with their, “wealthy are the job creators argument.” One statistic that was intended to demonstrate the loss of income due to the recession, along with the impact of the Obama tax cuts has been distorted and misused to justify a policy of not asking the wealthiest Americans to pay their fair share. The truth is that 86% of Americans pay taxes. In one recession strapped year (2009), less than half of single filer taxpayers paid federal income taxes. Millions of Americans are not being told the truth that almost 90% of us pay taxes, and that much of the reason why there were fewer people paying federal income taxes in 2009 was that Barack Obama signed the largest tax cut in US history. Since the truth undercuts the conservative’s reverse Robin Hood steal from the poor to give to the rich policy, they are going to do their best to keep the facts buried under a mountain of misinformation. Anytime anyone tells you that half of Americans paid no taxes, do your country a favor and straighten them out. We have the facts. It’s time to tear down this talking point. http://www.politicususa.com/en/half-americans-taxes] _______________________ FOOTNOTES: Quote:(1) Who Pays No Income Tax? By Roberton Williams During the 2008 election campaign, President Obama proposed to create or expand a variety of refundable tax credits, most notably his Making Work Pay credit. Refundability was key for Obama — that’s the only way to make credits available to people who pay little or no tax. Critics decried the proposals, asking how you can cut taxes for people who pay no tax. The Tax Policy Center (TPC) estimated that, under then current law, 38 percent of all nondependent tax units would pay no income tax in 2009. Earlier this year, Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act of 2009 (P.L. 111-5), which, among other things, temporarily put into place some of the refundable credits proposed during the campaign. TPC estimates that under the new law, 47 percent of tax units will owe no income tax in 2009 (see table). The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year. Differences in income explain much of that variation. Single people and heads of household have average income under $30,000 while married couples filing jointly have income averaging nearly $75,000. More than 60 percent of units with income between $20,000 and $30,000 pay no income tax, compared with only about 20 percent of those between $50,000 and $75,000. Filing status matters too, largely because of differences by filing status in exclusions, deductions, and credits, and in the presence of children. More than three-fourths of joint filers and heads of household with income between $30,000 and $40,000 pay no tax compared with just one-sixth of single tax units in that income range. And almost 90 percent of units with children in that income category pay no tax, reflecting, in part, the value of the earned income and child tax credits. A final note: One Obama campaign proposal that hasn’t reappeared would have zeroed out income taxes for elderly households with income under $50,000. Perhaps the proposal’s disappearance simply reflects the fact that nearly 80 percent of those units already pay no tax. (2) The 51 percent figure is an anomaly that reflects the unique circumstances of 2009, when the recession greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes and when temporary tax cuts created by the 2009 Recovery Act — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect. Together, these developments removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired. In a more typical year, 35 percent to 40 percent of households owe no federal income tax. In 2007, the figure was 37.9 percent. (3) About Those 47 Percent Who Pay “No Taxes.” Howard Gleckman | Posted on April 15, 2010, 8:44 pm Last June, my colleague Bob Williams posted a TaxVox article ( http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2009/07/08/who-pays-no-income-tax/) that reported 47 percent of American households paid no federal income tax in 2009. Bob was exactly right, but rarely has a bit of data been so misunderstood, or so misused. Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid ( http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/No_Tax_Liability_Tables.cfm) no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong. However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong. So who are these folks who pay no federal income taxes? Mostly, they are people who don’t make very much money. Many are elderly: Think a widow living only on Social Security benefits. Others are parents earning less than $20,000. Only about 5 percent are non-elderly households making more than $20,000. It is no accident, btw, that the number of people not paying income tax was so high in 2009. You may have noticed that we’ve had a recession lately. And here is a powerful insight: When people’s incomes decline so too does their income tax (at least most of the time). At the same time, many working families have benefited from temporary tax cuts aimed at boosting the economy, and as a result some did not pay income taxes last year. As the economy improves and those tax cuts expire, it should also be no surprise that the share of people who don't pay income taxes will likely shrink from half last year to less than 40 percent by 2012. There is, however, another reason why some people don’t pay. For decades, both Democratic and Republican governments have made conscious policy decisions to remove low-income working families from the income tax rolls. And, guess what, sometimes government policy works exactly as intended. That’s what happened this time. Let’s take one of the biggest drivers: the Earned Income Tax Credit. Based on an idea (the negative income tax) originated by conservative icon Milton Friedman, the EITC is refundable, so that people who work for low wages can not only wipe out their income tax liability, they can even get a cash payment from the government. The EITC was enacted in 1975 under President Ford, greatly expanded in 1986 under President Reagan, and expanded again under presidents Clinton and Bush (both of them). It's been the very model of bipartisan tax policy (which, I suppose, is why some dislike it so). Both the EITC and the child care credit are explicitly designed to encourage people to work—a goal most of us (including Friedman and Ronald Reagan) thought was a very good thing. While we are talking history, as my colleagues Gene Steuerle and Eric Toder remind me, big changes in the percentage of Americans who pay tax are nothing new. As Gene notes, prior to World War II, almost no Americans paid the income tax, and through the 1950s we paid only a small 3 percent Social Security tax. There was no Medicare tax since there was no Medicare. Today, the combined 15.3 percent payroll tax is pretty stiff, and just about every worker pays it, whether they owe income taxes or not. In fact, three-quarters of us pay more in payroll taxes than in income taxes. Let me close with two questions: Do those who reflexively oppose all tax hikes now favor raising taxes on elderly widows and low-income working families? And what would these critics of small government suggest we do with the revenue windfall this tax hike on the poor would generate? Help finance a cut in the estate tax, perhaps? So, as you file your last-minute returns on Tax Day, keep in mind what really is going on with the now-famous 47 percent. It may not be quite what you think. I have also included links to the material cited in this last footnote, if anyone chooses to follow the material further. This took me a long time, adding links, downloading the tables, resizing, saving and uploading them to Photobucket so they'd show up here, putting the text of one of the footnotes in uploadable form, etc., but it was well worth the effort. I would like to think this will put the myth to rest once and for all, but I'm not that stupid. I have, however, saved ALL the information and will cheerfully put it up again every time someone makes that fallacious statement; maybe eventually we can kill the myth, here at least. I can dream.
Quote:The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year.
Quote:The 51 percent figure is an anomaly that reflects the unique circumstances of 2009, when the recession greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes and when temporary tax cuts created by the 2009 Recovery Act — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect. Together, these developments removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired.
Quote:Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong. However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong.
Quote:(1) Who Pays No Income Tax? By Roberton Williams During the 2008 election campaign, President Obama proposed to create or expand a variety of refundable tax credits, most notably his Making Work Pay credit. Refundability was key for Obama — that’s the only way to make credits available to people who pay little or no tax. Critics decried the proposals, asking how you can cut taxes for people who pay no tax. The Tax Policy Center (TPC) estimated that, under then current law, 38 percent of all nondependent tax units would pay no income tax in 2009. Earlier this year, Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act of 2009 (P.L. 111-5), which, among other things, temporarily put into place some of the refundable credits proposed during the campaign. TPC estimates that under the new law, 47 percent of tax units will owe no income tax in 2009 (see table). The fraction of tax units paying no income tax varies widely by filing status and type of unit. About 47 percent of single filers will owe no tax, compared with 38 percent of joint filers and 72 percent of heads of household. More than half of elderly tax units and tax units with children will pay no income tax this year. Differences in income explain much of that variation. Single people and heads of household have average income under $30,000 while married couples filing jointly have income averaging nearly $75,000. More than 60 percent of units with income between $20,000 and $30,000 pay no income tax, compared with only about 20 percent of those between $50,000 and $75,000. Filing status matters too, largely because of differences by filing status in exclusions, deductions, and credits, and in the presence of children. More than three-fourths of joint filers and heads of household with income between $30,000 and $40,000 pay no tax compared with just one-sixth of single tax units in that income range. And almost 90 percent of units with children in that income category pay no tax, reflecting, in part, the value of the earned income and child tax credits. A final note: One Obama campaign proposal that hasn’t reappeared would have zeroed out income taxes for elderly households with income under $50,000. Perhaps the proposal’s disappearance simply reflects the fact that nearly 80 percent of those units already pay no tax. (2) The 51 percent figure is an anomaly that reflects the unique circumstances of 2009, when the recession greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes and when temporary tax cuts created by the 2009 Recovery Act — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect. Together, these developments removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired. In a more typical year, 35 percent to 40 percent of households owe no federal income tax. In 2007, the figure was 37.9 percent. (3) About Those 47 Percent Who Pay “No Taxes.” Howard Gleckman | Posted on April 15, 2010, 8:44 pm Last June, my colleague Bob Williams posted a TaxVox article ( http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2009/07/08/who-pays-no-income-tax/) that reported 47 percent of American households paid no federal income tax in 2009. Bob was exactly right, but rarely has a bit of data been so misunderstood, or so misused. Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid ( http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/No_Tax_Liability_Tables.cfm) no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn’t pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong. However, this class warfare-like rhetoric plays to a perception that the income tax is a chump tax: Only hard-working folks like us pay it. The welfare queens don’t. The super-rich don’t. It is a powerful emotional argument. It is also flat wrong. So who are these folks who pay no federal income taxes? Mostly, they are people who don’t make very much money. Many are elderly: Think a widow living only on Social Security benefits. Others are parents earning less than $20,000. Only about 5 percent are non-elderly households making more than $20,000. It is no accident, btw, that the number of people not paying income tax was so high in 2009. You may have noticed that we’ve had a recession lately. And here is a powerful insight: When people’s incomes decline so too does their income tax (at least most of the time). At the same time, many working families have benefited from temporary tax cuts aimed at boosting the economy, and as a result some did not pay income taxes last year. As the economy improves and those tax cuts expire, it should also be no surprise that the share of people who don't pay income taxes will likely shrink from half last year to less than 40 percent by 2012. There is, however, another reason why some people don’t pay. For decades, both Democratic and Republican governments have made conscious policy decisions to remove low-income working families from the income tax rolls. And, guess what, sometimes government policy works exactly as intended. That’s what happened this time. Let’s take one of the biggest drivers: the Earned Income Tax Credit. Based on an idea (the negative income tax) originated by conservative icon Milton Friedman, the EITC is refundable, so that people who work for low wages can not only wipe out their income tax liability, they can even get a cash payment from the government. The EITC was enacted in 1975 under President Ford, greatly expanded in 1986 under President Reagan, and expanded again under presidents Clinton and Bush (both of them). It's been the very model of bipartisan tax policy (which, I suppose, is why some dislike it so). Both the EITC and the child care credit are explicitly designed to encourage people to work—a goal most of us (including Friedman and Ronald Reagan) thought was a very good thing. While we are talking history, as my colleagues Gene Steuerle and Eric Toder remind me, big changes in the percentage of Americans who pay tax are nothing new. As Gene notes, prior to World War II, almost no Americans paid the income tax, and through the 1950s we paid only a small 3 percent Social Security tax. There was no Medicare tax since there was no Medicare. Today, the combined 15.3 percent payroll tax is pretty stiff, and just about every worker pays it, whether they owe income taxes or not. In fact, three-quarters of us pay more in payroll taxes than in income taxes. Let me close with two questions: Do those who reflexively oppose all tax hikes now favor raising taxes on elderly widows and low-income working families? And what would these critics of small government suggest we do with the revenue windfall this tax hike on the poor would generate? Help finance a cut in the estate tax, perhaps? So, as you file your last-minute returns on Tax Day, keep in mind what really is going on with the now-famous 47 percent. It may not be quite what you think.
Monday, September 26, 2011 7:11 AM
BYTEMITE
Monday, September 26, 2011 7:14 AM
Monday, September 26, 2011 8:16 AM
Monday, September 26, 2011 8:20 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Monday, September 26, 2011 8:24 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, September 26, 2011 8:36 AM
Quote: The 51 percent figure is an anomaly that reflects the unique circumstances of 2009, when the recession greatly swelled the number of Americans with low incomes and when temporary tax cuts created by the 2009 Recovery Act — including the “Making Work Pay” tax credit and an exclusion from tax of the first $2,400 in unemployment benefits — were in effect. Together, these developments removed millions of Americans from the federal income tax rolls. Both of these temporary tax measures have since expired. In a more typical year, 35 percent to 40 percent of households owe no federal income tax. In 2007, the figure was 37.9 percent.
Monday, September 26, 2011 9:28 AM
M52NICKERSON
DALEK!
Monday, September 26, 2011 10:47 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Which is PRECISELY the point. It's the politicians who OMIT the "federal income" part of it, quite successfully and very often. Which is a lie, a common myth propounded by them.
Quote:Nearly half of American families don’t make enough money to pay federal income taxes at all.
Quote:Ergo, even if "federal income" is part of the statement, it is STILL a lie unless "in 2009" is in the statement, correct? I assume you agree on that point as well.
Quote:Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year.
Quote:Ergo, neither of you will be using the argument that "50% of Americans don't pay taxes" again, yes?
Monday, September 26, 2011 11:42 AM
DREAMTROVE
Monday, September 26, 2011 12:10 PM
Monday, September 26, 2011 6:23 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:00 AM
Quote: So in this case you're apparently trying to argue a point no one was trying to make.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:22 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor:Which, I've found , to be a common occurrence with the Left.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:01 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: So in this case you're apparently trying to argue a point no one was trying to make. Which, I've found , to be a common occurrence with the Left. Kinda like how Obama intentionally twists and distorts the issue, by saying how Republicans want to strip away ALL regulations, deport ALL illegal immigrants, or that the rich should pay NO taxes, at all.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:30 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:33 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:35 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:38 AM
Quote:Republicans want to strip away ALL regulations, deport ALL illegal immigrants, or that the rich should pay NO taxes, at all.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:54 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: No, Geezer, first off, it's not "in discussions of Federal Income Tax", it's tossed out by Republican politicians, constantly. That was part of my point.
Quote:Secondly, note it says "American families", so that's discounting illegal aliens, which I assume is a large part of those you referred to as working off the books.
Quote:Third, you quoted "Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year." That's no lie...
Quote:Lastly, no, it's not pedantic to say "Federal Income Tax", leaving it out,
Quote:It's said all the TIME, in one form or another, by right-wing politicians (especially candidates) and in the argument about raising taxes on the ultra-wealthy.
Quote:What I find pedantic is you guys on the right trying to nit-pick your way out of it.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:39 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:30 AM
Quote:Allen West, a Republican candidate for Congress for the South Florida seat now held by Democratic Rep. Ron Klein, claims that close to half of Americans aren't paying "any taxes." On a page about the economy on his Web site, West claims, "Currently we have some 40-45% of Americans who are not paying any taxes" ttp:// www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/apr/28/allen-west/west-says-nearly-half-americans-pay-no-taxes/ Savage: "Forty-seven percent of families pay no taxes. That's a very, very bad warning sign for what's coming in this country. Those are the families who elected this charlatan." http://mediamatters.org/research/201004120039 should people who pay no tax be allowed to decide how tax dollars are spent? This is especially galling to me whenever someone trots out the old statistic about how 50% of Americans pay no taxes at all. It just seems to me in watching what has happend in Europe, and is slowly happening here, that the eventual result of allowing everyone to vote, including non-tax payers, is a Socialist state. http://www.republicanoperative.com/forums/f16/should-people-who-pay-no-taxes-allowed-vote-30260/
Quote:While talking about Sen. Barack Obama's tax plan on the October 15 edition of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight, host Lou Dobbs falsely asserted that "just about 40 percent of all Americans -- working Americans -- don't pay taxes." http://mediamatters.org/research/200810160021 have 50 percent of people who are getting something for nothing," said Curtis Dubay, senior tax policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1 one politician per se, and I grant you that, researching it, most politicians added the "income" part. It's also true that where one finds the word "income" is left out is mostly in refutations of Republican quotes. I found that as well. It's as misleading and wrong for them to do it as it is for those on the right to make the claim. As the other quotes show, many assume (or misunderstand) that it refers to all taxes. I guess my point is best summed up thus:Quote:Donald Marron, director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, wrote "The true fact -- about half of Americans do not pay federal income taxes -- often gets transmogrified in public discourse into the decidedly untrue claim that half of Americans pay no taxes." http://news.yahoo.com/dont-blame-obama-liberals-half-americans-paying-no-000600375.html people hear "pay no income taxes", all too often they extrapolate it to "pay no taxes", and that works to create a visceral reaction that "Hey, I pay taxes, why don't THEY?" without any recognition of the other taxes and/or no understanding of WHY some pay no income tax, or that the figure only reflects one year. That is the point, for me; however, I freely admit you're right that it is those pundits and others who are refuting the claim who most often say "Republicans say 50% pay no taxes" rather than including "income". You are right, I am wrong. I don't like finding that out, any more than I like the result of the more correct statement, as Marron pointed out above. I learned something today, I thank you for that. Just as the choice of wording has mislead many into thinking a large portion of the public pay no taxes at all, the wording on the other side lead me to believe most Republicans were omitting the word "income". Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani, Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”, signing off
Quote:Donald Marron, director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, wrote "The true fact -- about half of Americans do not pay federal income taxes -- often gets transmogrified in public discourse into the decidedly untrue claim that half of Americans pay no taxes." http://news.yahoo.com/dont-blame-obama-liberals-half-americans-paying-no-000600375.html people hear "pay no income taxes", all too often they extrapolate it to "pay no taxes", and that works to create a visceral reaction that "Hey, I pay taxes, why don't THEY?" without any recognition of the other taxes and/or no understanding of WHY some pay no income tax, or that the figure only reflects one year. That is the point, for me; however, I freely admit you're right that it is those pundits and others who are refuting the claim who most often say "Republicans say 50% pay no taxes" rather than including "income". You are right, I am wrong. I don't like finding that out, any more than I like the result of the more correct statement, as Marron pointed out above. I learned something today, I thank you for that. Just as the choice of wording has mislead many into thinking a large portion of the public pay no taxes at all, the wording on the other side lead me to believe most Republicans were omitting the word "income".
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:42 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:49 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Under the larger issue of who is paying 'their fair share'... It's the rich, after all. ( and then some ) http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/1153/09/1153_1317114717.bmp http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/1153/09/1153_1317114812.bmp The "rich" have been paying more and more in taxes, while the lower income earners have had less and less of the tax burden. The bait and switch going on here, of course, is that govt is getting bigger and bigger, requiring more and more of OUR money. What Obama and the Left ( and yes, even some of the GOP ) want folks to believe is that, we NEED bigger govt to survive, and that by fabricating this class warfare movement, they can divert the attention of MOST of the people, who have been paying less and less of the freight, into believing that the evil, greedy rich are to blame for this entire economic down turn, because they obviously have so much. Nothing could be further from the truth. The " rich " didn't cause this recession. The govt did. Soaking " the rich " won't turn the economy around, but it sure does make for great political kabuki theatre. We can confiscate every damn penny from the wealthiest 1% of this nation , and it'd only run the country for a few months. And then what ? Sad that so many 'politically aware' individuals on here are so incredibly blind ti what's really going on here.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:56 AM
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 8:48 AM
Quote:I can only guess as to why it'd be omitted
Tuesday, September 27, 2011 11:48 PM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: investment instruments. ...and you have been proven wrong on your argument about the rich and taxes in so many threads it silly. Remember a higher rate does not equal a fair share.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 1:45 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Actually, I've not been proven wrong. You're just too stubborn to acknowledge the facts. And yes, a higher rate does not equal a fair share. It's absolutely UNfair that some should pay a higher rate. On that, we agree.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 2:14 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: It's also true that where one finds the word "income" is left out is mostly in refutations of Republican quotes. I found that as well. It's as misleading and wrong for them to do it as it is for those on the right to make the claim. As the other quotes show, many assume (or misunderstand) that it refers to all taxes.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 3:45 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:The "rich" have been paying more and more in taxes
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 5:58 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:23 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:35 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Siggy Your simplistic chart completely ignores the array of loop holes and exemptions that have come and gone, over the decades. I guess this wiki list is something YOU might feel makes your argument, but it fails, utterly , in dealing w/ the issue.
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: The rich are paying FAR more than their fair share. That's a fact. Does that mean the tax system isn't long over due for a complete over haul ? Hell no. Never said it was, and I'm fully in favor of doing away w/ the tax code as we have it now. A Flat Tax or the FAIRTax are vast improvements over the antiquated system we have now.
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: The rich aren't the reason we're in this mess, it's primarily the fault of the federal govt, monkeying around w/ the free market. Sure, a "very few" folks, who are extremely well off, made a killing, and ushered things along, but that's a far cry from ALL rich people being guilty. And yet you'd punish most if not all achievers in this country, simply to placate the dumb masses and useful idiots who are willing dupes to the Democratic party. They are the ones fanning the flames of class warfare and division in this country.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:43 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:46 AM
Quote: Obviously if the government had not had regulations, all the rich people could have made a killing.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:49 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:01 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: You just aren't that bright. I get that now. I really do. Loop holes and write offs allow folks to deduct from the taxes they pay. Yes, when the rates were higher, there were more loop holes and deductions. Like rental property, in the 80's... but I know I'm already confusing you. Point being, even at " 90 % ", no one was paying those rates. NO ONE. Nor should they have, and that's the other point. It's absurd to tax anyone that much, no matter how much $ they've already made.
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: And the Flat Tax / FAIRTax would lessen , not increase, the burden on the middle class. You literally have no idea what you're talking about , do you ? Of course, not. But anyone who dares to suggest changing your precious unfair tax code MUST be attacked, huh? You're such a boob.
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Actually, the GOP wanted MORE regulations on Fannie and Freddie, which would have resulted in far LESS of those few rich folks making such a killing, and the housing industry wouldn't have collapsed, because it would have seen more modest growth.... as I've already shown you in earlier video posts. And yes, excessive taxation IS punishment. Caused a rebellion in this fine land.... maybe you've heard of it ?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:06 AM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Hey Niki.... " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:19 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Hey Niki.... ] I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Storymark: ANSWER: An imaginary douchebag that teabaggers worship. A double-bagger, as it were. What's my prize?
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:29 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Sorry I really can't provide any proof of what I claim, so I concede.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:33 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Sorry I really can't provide any proof of what I claim, so I concede. Well thank you vary much. I'm glad you realize that everything you just said was backwords.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:39 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: 1. You're not Niki
Quote:2. No prize was offered, so you deserve none.
Quote:3. Obviously, you don't believe your life belongs to you, at all. You believe your life belongs to the State, and it determines how much success you are 'due', and how much wealth you can keep.
Quote:Not really very much of a surprise to me, at all.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:45 AM
Quote:Originally posted by m52nickerson: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Sorry I really can't provide any proof of what I claim, so I concede. Well thank you vary much. I'm glad you realize that everything you just said was backwords. I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:54 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:59 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Nothing I said in the above posts were in any way 'backwards'.
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor:Fannie and Freddie were the ones making the bad loans. Those bad loans were then bundled and sold, and they were the direct cause of the collapse.
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:43 AM
Quote: Another political fable is that the current economic downturn is due to not enough government regulation of the housing and financial markets. But it was precisely the government regulators, under pressure from politicians, who forced banks and other lending institutions to lower their standards for making mortgage loans. These risky loans, and the defaults that followed, were what set off a chain reaction of massive financial losses that brought down the whole economy. Was this due to George W. Bush and the Republicans? Only partly. Most of those who pushed the lowering of mortgage lending standards were Democrats-- notably Congressman Barney Frank and Senator Christopher Dodd, though too many Republicans went along. At the heart of these policies were Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, who bought huge amounts of risky mortgages, passing the risk on from the banks that lent the money (and made the profits) to the taxpayers who were not even aware that they would end up paying in the end. When President Bush said in 2004 that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should be reined in, 76 members of the House of Representatives issued a statement to the contrary. These included Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, Maxine Waters and Charles Rangel. If we are going to talk about "the policies that created this mess in the first place," let's at least get the facts straight and the names right. The current policies of the Obama administration are a continuation of the same reckless policies that brought on the current economic problems-- all in the name of "change." Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are still sacred cows in Washington, even though they have already required the biggest bailouts of all. Why? Because they allow politicians to direct vast sums of money where it will do politicians the most good, either personally or in terms of buying votes in the next election. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/09/07/political_fables_107026.html
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:17 AM
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 11:21 AM
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