About that "50% Pay No Taxes" Myth by Niki2

No....

It's to ensure that unfit parents that can't manage their money can take care of their reckless kids (which who's dispositions, regardless of popular opinion are entirely their fault, and not that of the media or of their schools).

Negligence and ignorance breeds stupidity. It wasn't their genes that raised stupidity.

Don't talk to me sister about this BS. I was raised by a single mother who took care of three children. I'm 32 and have a house that's paid for and never even got a college degree. My brother is the nicest guy in the world I've ever known and has married a doctor and they're already making their own life.

We NEVER had food stamps or BS to make it by. If my mom had swallowed her pride and asked for government handouts, like a lot of women today swallow a lot of other things, she'd be one of those rich old broads giving themselves skin cancer on beaches most of us can't afford.

Like George Carlin said.....

the children.

If you couldn't afford to buy it, you shouldn't have had it in the first place.

Since I was 25, all of my cars have been used, and they've been paid for in cash.

I just bought a house, and it was paid for in cash.

I also bought a washer/dryer, hot water heater, table saw, thousands of dollars of home improvement and tools, dehumidifier, and 10 tons of pulverized black dirt to fill in the non-existant pool with cash.

Next week, I will likely be buying a new furnace.......

with cash.

I don't even have an associate's degree.

Don't give me that BS sob story about kids.....

Whether parents are rich or poor they always blame their children for the financial position they're in.

If you can't afford to raise them, then you should have had your tubes tied and not make me pay for them.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Saturday, October 1, 2011 3:13 PM

DREAMTROVE

This first image cracked me up. Here's your Galt

The second one concerns me. If you were British, I would take it as satire, as it is, it seems tyrannical. Are you actually meaning to say you are anti-freedom? Or is this just a misguided attempt to say you want to shoot 20 million Americans, and just includes an unintentional ignorance of history?

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, October 1, 2011 3:26 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This first image cracked me up. Here's your Galt

The second one concerns me. If you were British, I would take it as satire, as it is, it seems tyrannical. Are you actually meaning to say you are anti-freedom? Or is this just a misguided attempt to say you want to shoot 20 million Americans, and just includes an unintentional ignorance of history?

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

Oh, boo freaking hoo. You need to grow a thicker skin, DT. If Nick's joke on the tea-baggers is him saying he wants to shoot 20 million Americans, then the tea-baggers' use of the rattlesnake as their symbol means they want to poison and kill over 300 million Americans.

And yes, if you try to poison me, I absolutely will reserve the right to shoot you. I believe it's called "self defense". You may have heard of the concept.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, October 1, 2011 3:39 PM

Damn....

I thought I had some real, civil, points to make, but ya'all are just crazy douchebags....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Saturday, October 1, 2011 4:57 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The second one concerns me. If you were British, I would take it as satire, as it is, it seems tyrannical. Are you actually meaning to say you are anti-freedom? Or is this just a misguided attempt to say you want to shoot 20 million Americans, and just includes an unintentional ignorance of history?

It is just a way to piss off tea party and conservative types that wrap themselves in the US Flag or other US symbols in an attempt to convince people they are "real Americans". Anyone who has ever stated that some are real, or true Americans while others are not have absolutely no fucking clue what this country is about.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, October 1, 2011 5:04 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If you can't afford to raise them, then you should have had your tubes tied and not make me pay for them.

Of course it is that simple. I mean nothing ever happens to people who have money, like losing a job or anything.

Truly only the wealthy and well off should be able to have children.

....or you are simply an ass.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 2:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MACK: Exactly.

Rappy: So how do you know that current taxes are "too much"? Have you made any attempt to monetize (express in dollar amount) the various benefits that anyone receives while living in a society? If you haven't, how do you know what is "due"?

Because the 'rich' are paying more in taxes, as a %, than the income they earn.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 3:26 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Because the 'rich' are paying more in taxes, as a %, than the income they earn.

$1 to a poor man means a lot more then $100 to a rich man.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 5:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MACK: Exactly.

Rappy: So how do you know that current taxes are "too much"? Have you made any attempt to monetize (express in dollar amount) the various benefits that anyone receives while living in a society? If you haven't, how do you know what is "due"?

Because the 'rich' are paying more in taxes, as a %, than the income they earn.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Except that's been shown to NOT be the case. The rich are allegedly paying more in INCOME TAXES, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

As an example, a typical hedge fund manager might make $5.5 million in a year, but only $250k of that is taxed as "income", because he's set up on a $250k/yr "salary" - the other 5.25m is listed as a "bonus", and thus taxed as capital gains. Hence, he might pay 35% on the $250k (which he won't, because of all his deductions and expenses and write-offs for the year), but a much lower capital-gains rate of 15% on the vast majority of his real "income".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:15 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As an example, a typical hedge fund manager might make $5.5 million in a year, but only $250k of that is taxed as "income", because he's set up on a $250k/yr "salary" - the other 5.25m is listed as a "bonus", and thus taxed as capital gains. Hence, he might pay 35% on the $250k (which he won't, because of all his deductions and expenses and write-offs for the year), but a much lower capital-gains rate of 15% on the vast majority of his real "income".

This might be valid if the top 50% were all hedge fund managers and the like.

Per the National Taxpayer's Union, based on IRS SOI data, even just the top 10% (who pay close to 70% of all individual income taxes) start at an Adjusted Gross Income of around $114,000.00 (2008 figures). At this level, they're still paying SSA on most all their income, and are spending - rather than saving - a good bit of their income and paying sales tax on it. They probably also own a home and cars they're paying property tax on. So most of the evil top 50% ends up being the middle class and upper middle class. http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

All this 'billionaires' and 'hedge fund managers' stuff is just propaganda.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
As an example, a typical hedge fund manager might make $5.5 million in a year, but only $250k of that is taxed as "income", because he's set up on a $250k/yr "salary" - the other 5.25m is listed as a "bonus", and thus taxed as capital gains. Hence, he might pay 35% on the $250k (which he won't, because of all his deductions and expenses and write-offs for the year), but a much lower capital-gains rate of 15% on the vast majority of his real "income".

This might be valid if the top 50% were all hedge fund managers and the like.

Per the National Taxpayer's Union, based on IRS SOI data, even just the top 10% (who pay close to 70% of all individual income taxes) start at an Adjusted Gross Income of around $114,000.00 (2008 figures). At this level, they're still paying SSA on most all their income, and are spending - rather than saving - a good bit of their income and paying sales tax on it. They probably also own a home and cars they're paying property tax on. So most of the evil top 50% ends up being the middle class and upper middle class. http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

All this 'billionaires' and 'hedge fund managers' stuff is just propaganda.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

This might be valid if I'd suggested or stated that the top 50% were billionaires and hedge fund managers. Or if I had suggested raising taxes on the top 50%.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Because the 'rich' are paying more in taxes, as a %, than the income they earn.

$1 to a poor man means a lot more then $100 to a rich man.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Which is why the ' poor ' pay no federal taxes. Hell, nearly half the wage earners no longer pay any federal taxes. The Left wants that number to be 60,70, 80% of wage earners, and let the top producers in this country foot the bill for everyone.

Being ignored by almost everyone here ( and on purpose, I suspect ) is that the govt is running up too high a bill. THAT needs to be addressed, but instead, we get class warfare from the Left, and cries to tax more and more.

Quote:
, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

That's not even remotely true.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:40 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
This might be valid if I'd suggested or stated that the top 50% were billionaires and hedge fund managers.

In a thread titled "About that '50% Pay No Taxes' Myth", when you're talking about the 50% that do, and you start the sentence with: "As an example, a typical hedge fund manager...", seems you either think that the top 50% ARE hedge fund managers, or are trying to give that impression.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 7:15 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Ah Geezer -

You know, you make >SUCH< an effort to find skewed data one would almost think you were doing it on purpose.

Be a dear and find data on the top 1% and top 0.1% instead of data where THEIR numbers are hidden in the vast majority of 'regular' tax payers who are the top 50% and top 10%, OK?

Otherwise, I'm going to have to start thinking you don't have an honest argument to your name.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 9:08 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Which is why the ' poor ' pay no federal taxes. Hell, nearly half the wage earners no longer pay any federal taxes. The Left wants that number to be 60,70, 80% of wage earners, and let the top producers in this country foot the bill for everyone.

No, he talk is about raising that tax rate on the wealthy, not doing that and cutting tax on the middle and poor.

Oh, and if you had a brain you would understand that the reason that $1 is worth more to a poor person the $100 is to a rich person is because % are not real numbers.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Being ignored by almost everyone here ( and on purpose, I suspect ) is that the govt is running up too high a bill. THAT needs to be addressed, but instead, we get class warfare from the Left, and cries to tax more and more.

No one is ignoring it. We just don't agree with that opinion.

....and that is all it is.

Quote:
, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

That's not even remotely true.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 9:09 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

That's not even remotely true.

You have been shown this before, many, many times.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
This might be valid if I'd suggested or stated that the top 50% were billionaires and hedge fund managers.

In a thread titled "About that '50% Pay No Taxes' Myth", when you're talking about the 50% that do, and you start the sentence with: "As an example, a typical hedge fund manager...", seems you either think that the top 50% ARE hedge fund managers, or are trying to give that impression.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Yes, how very deceptive of me, in a thread titled "About that '50% Pay No Taxes' Myth", to start a post replying to one about "the rich" and how much they pay, with "Except that's been shown to NOT be the case. The rich are allegedly paying more in INCOME TAXES, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn."

So you see, I didn't start with an example of a hedge fund manager; I started with a statement about the rich. I don't consider everyone above the bottom 50% to be "rich" but it's clear you either think they are rich billionaires, or you are trying to give that impression. As Kiki points out, it *almost* seems as if you're being deceptive on purpose, doesn't it?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Because the 'rich' are paying more in taxes, as a %, than the income they earn.

$1 to a poor man means a lot more then $100 to a rich man.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Which is why the ' poor ' pay no federal taxes. Hell, nearly half the wage earners no longer pay any federal taxes. The Left wants that number to be 60,70, 80% of wage earners, and let the top producers in this country foot the bill for everyone.

This is funny as hell. For years and years, we've heard that "The Left", that big, evil bogeyman, is going to "raise taxes". When Obama claimed he'd lower taxes, he was called a liar. And now you're complaining because he did, in fact, LOWER TAXES, and you think they're too low? You're hilarious, Rappy.

Quote:

Being ignored by almost everyone here ( and on purpose, I suspect ) is that the govt is running up too high a bill. THAT needs to be addressed, but instead, we get class warfare from the Left, and cries to tax more and more.

Being ignored by seemingly everyone on the right (on purpose, of course) is the fact that the government ALREADY ran up too high a bill when it decided to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, all while giving away tax "rebates" and instituting tax cuts for the very rich. When the right had a lock on all three branches of government, not only did they not balance the budget or reduce the deficit - they EXPLODED the deficit.

So tell me why anyone would listen to you preach about fiscal responsibility, ever?

If you think the government is running up too high a bill, which defense programs would you cut back on? After all, it was this military adventurism that led most directly to our current problems.

Quote:

Quote:
, but in reality [the rich] are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

That's not even remotely true.

Of course it is. This isn't even debatable. You have no case.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If you can't afford to raise them, then you should have had your tubes tied and not make me pay for them.

Of course it is that simple. I mean nothing ever happens to people who have money, like losing a job or anything.

Truly only the wealthy and well off should be able to have children.

....or you are simply an ass.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Nope.... Not what I'm saying.....

I do plan on getting married and having children.

The Operative word here is "plan".

I am not, nor (likely) will I ever be well off.... and if I do, I will have nobody but myself to thank. I surely wasn't born into it.

My problem here is that 90% of the people in this nation rely on Gummint in one way or another to support their offspring because they either A) had unexpected children because of whorish behavior without preventative measures, B) had kids they planned for, but underestimated the expenses of those children, or C) (worst of all, in my book) had kids and then decided that the best course of action was to give all of their money to courts and lawyers because they really hate each other and want to dig their claws in for as many years as possible to their former spouse and make everyone's life miserable.

Shit....

As much as it initially horrified me to read "Brave New World" right after reading "1984", sometimes I think it should be a swear word to say "Mother" or "Father" since so many are, at best, completely incompetent at the job with good intentions, and at worst, completely negligent and self indulgent.

I'm just here to say that I shouldn't be paying taxes to pay for unfit parents to "raise" their doomed children.

EDITED TO ADD:

I forgot to add the most important part of this argument......

Which is.....

1) Nobody in my family gives or has ever given me money.

2) I never ask to borrow or get free money from my family.

3) I haven't worked (a paying job) for over a year and a half.

4) I bought a house with cash (that needs a lot of work) and have a car with cash, all on my own merit.

5) I've never gotten even an associate's degree, nor have I ever worked an overpaid union job.

Anybody with financial problems here that makes more than 30k a year seriously needs to re-evaulate where their money has been going and where it needs to be going.

I have no pity for people who are underwater on mortgages. I knew that stuff was going down 10 years ago, and I was very vocal about it here and in "real life", among other places, way before the term "housing-bubble" was coined. Anyone I warned of it didn't heed the warning and they're all underwater.

I'm just happy that most of my friends who are underwater do have overpaid union jobs and they should be able to ride the storm.

In the mean time.... I got my house for 1/3 of the asking price 5 years ago.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 3:18 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Nobody in my family gives or has ever given me money.

Yeah, when you were just a few minutes old you were so independent and ambitious you were already self-supporting!

I haven't worked (a paying job) for over a year and a half.

So, uh, what were you doing on that street corner?

I bought a house with cash (that needs a lot of work) and have a car with cash, all on my own merit.

And a big THANKS! to Uncle Sam for a currency, an economy, and property laws!

I've never gotten even an associate's degree

Ignorant and proud of it!

nor have I ever worked an overpaid union job.

'Cause we should ALL aspire to work in a place just like a Marianas sweatshop or and Indian brickyard!

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Nobody in my family gives or has ever given me money.

Yeah, when you were just a few minutes old you were so independent and ambitious you were already self-supporting!

I haven't worked (a paying job) for over a year and a half.

So, uh, what were you doing on that street corner?

I bought a house with cash (that needs a lot of work) and have a car with cash, all on my own merit.

And a big THANKS! to Uncle Sam for a currency, an economy, and property laws!

I've never gotten even an associate's degree

Ignorant and proud of it!

nor have I ever worked an overpaid union job.

'Cause we should ALL aspire to work in a place just like a Marianas sweatshop or and Indian brickyard!

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Lol...

1) I surely never got more than you did from your own parents for free, assuming you're a normally adjusted adult today.

2) As for working on the corner, that's a low blow without any merit behind it. Thanks for proving the extreme ignorance of your reply for all to see there. Not to mention the spite of your jealousy for being in your not-as-good position as mine now.

3) Currency, economy and property laws pre-dated Uncle Sam. Just as good will towards man pre-dated the Coca-Cola mascot we all know today as Santa Clause.

4) As for "ignorant and proud of it", that's cool with me. I probably read more literature than 90% of your average high school graduates and I wasn't "paid" to do it.

Don't forget that, as much as you'd hate to acknowledge it, more than 80% of the multi-national CEOs in this country are no more than high school graduates with possibly "some college".

Put that in your pipe and smoke it at your next job interview.

Much love,
~6

EDITED TO ADD:

No worries 1kiki......

I'm sure that members of the Rethug party will be hating out of jealousy too. It's a bi-partisan thing.

People on both sides are idiots. Most people I've known are idiots. Most people who post here...... yes.... are probably idiots.

You're in good company.

And it's not just a Democrat thing

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, October 2, 2011 4:35 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Not to mention the spite of your jealousy for being in your not-as-good position as mine now."

Home - paid off. Solid car - paid off. Savings, investments, commodities. Check. Check. Check. I could retire, or even lose my job, right now, and be OK for the rest of my life. I think I'm doing a leeeeeetle bit better than you.

As an observation, you seem to think that 'libruls' are over-educated, financially naive, bleeding heart, poor whiners looking for a handout. Don't make so many assumptions.

"Currency, economy and property laws pre-dated Uncle Sam."

But you can't get anywhere without them. Yes, even you need a government. In the US, it happens to be the US government. So yes, you need the US Government.

"I probably read more literature than 90% of your average high school graduates and I wasn't "paid" to do it."

Public school? That's number three. (And a strike out.)

Oh, what makes you think that us educated people didn't get into higher education BECAUSE we read a lot? (Four, if you're counting.)

Hang around many educated people? I didn't think so. This looks like yet another self-serving assumption you cling to in your fantasy-land.

"Don't forget that, as much as you'd hate to acknowledge it, more than 80% of the multi-national CEOs in this country are no more than high school graduates with possibly "some college"."

Care to back that up?

I know you won't. I'm just pointing it out - you know, for the record - that you will fail to do so.

You failed to address any of my points except with fantasies and assumptions. And, I hope you can add up all the boo-boos you posted. Hint: it's less than 6.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 11:36 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Kiki's street corner thing was below the board, Six String is a bragger and thinks he's better than most folk in life and doesn't mind admitting he thinks this. Lots of people think they're great, but few spout about it. Both of them can just keep arguing with each other. They both do sometimes have good points, but they can both be pills sometimes. They can keep arguing with each other and I'll watch them and see what happens.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 3, 2011 11:47 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
, but in reality are paying LESS in overall taxes as a percentage of the income they earn.

That's not even remotely true.

You have been shown this before, many, many times.

It hasn't been shown. What I have show, and will show again, is exactly the opposite of what YOU are falsely stating.

Data: The rich actually do pay more taxes

President Barack Obama makes it sound as if there are millionaires all over America paying taxes at lower rates than their secretaries.

"Middle-class families shouldn't pay higher taxes than millionaires and billionaires," Obama said Monday. "That's pretty straightforward. It's hard to argue against that."

The data tell a different story. On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government.

There may be individual millionaires who pay taxes at rates lower than middle-income workers. In 2009, 1,470 households filed tax returns with incomes above $1 million yet paid no federal income tax, according to the Internal Revenue Service. That, however, was less than 1 percent of the nearly 237,000 returns with incomes above $1 million.

In his White House address Monday, Obama called on Congress to increase taxes by $1.5 trillion as part of a 10-year deficit reduction package totaling more than $3 trillion. He proposed that Congress overhaul the tax code and impose what he called the "Buffett rule," named for billionaire investor Warren Buffett.

The rule says, "People making more than $1 million a year should not pay a smaller share of their income in taxes than middle-class families pay."

"Warren Buffett's secretary shouldn't pay a higher tax rate than Warren Buffett. There is no justification for it," Obama said. "It is wrong that in the United States of America, a teacher or a nurse or a construction worker who earns $50,000 should pay higher tax rates than somebody pulling in $50 million."

Buffett wrote in a recent piece for The New York Times that the tax rate he paid last year was lower than that paid by any of the other 20 people in his office.

This year, households making more than $1 million will pay an average of 29.1 percent of their income in federal taxes, including income taxes and payroll taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank.

Households making between $50,000 and $75,000 will pay 15 percent of their income in federal taxes.

Lower-income households will pay less. For example, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will pay an average of 12.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. Households making between $20,000 and $30,000 will pay 5.7 percent.

The latest IRS figures are a few years older -- and limited to federal income taxes -- but show much the same thing. In 2009, taxpayers who made $1 million or more paid on average 24.4 percent of their income in federal income taxes, according to the IRS.

Those making $100,000 to $125,000 paid on average 9.9 percent in federal income taxes. Those making $50,000 to $60,000 paid an average of 6.3 percent.

Obama's claim hinges on the fact that, for high-income families and individuals, investment income is often taxed at a lower rate than wages. The top tax rate for dividends and capital gains is 15 percent. The top marginal tax rate for wages is 35 percent, though that is reserved for taxable income above $379,150.

With tax rates that high, why do so many people pay at lower rates? Because the tax code is riddled with more than $1 trillion in deductions, exemptions and credits, and they benefit people at every income level, according to data from the nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation, Congress' official scorekeeper on revenue issues.

The Tax Policy Center estimates that 46 percent of households, mostly low- and medium-income households, will pay no federal income taxes this year. Most, however, will pay other taxes, including Social Security payroll taxes.

"People who are doing quite well and worry about low-income people not paying any taxes bemoan the fact that they get so many tax breaks that they are zeroed out," said Roberton Williams, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. "People at the bottom of the distribution say, but all of those rich guys are getting bigger tax breaks than we're getting, which is also the case."

Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner was pressed at a White House briefing on the number of millionaires who pay taxes at a lower rate than middle-income families. He demurred, saying that people who make most of their money in wages pay taxes at a higher rate, while those who get most of their income from investments pay at lower rates.

"So it really depends on what is your profession, where's the source of your income, what's the specific circumstances you face, and the averages won't really capture that," Geithner said.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-data-the-rich-actu
ally-do-pay-more-taxes-20110920,0,3645513.story

And then there's this..

http://content.clearchannel.com/cc-common/mlib/1153/09/1153_1317114717
.bmp

And as an aside, just something worth while seeing, a little lagniappe

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/bet-founder-obama-stop-demagoguing-rich

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 12:10 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"They both do sometimes have good points ..."

Except I refuted 6-s points - all of them - and he didn't refute a single one of mine. In case you didn't notice.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:40 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Ah Geezer -

You know, you make >SUCH< an effort to find skewed data one would almost think you were doing it on purpose.

Be a dear and find data on the top 1% and top 0.1% instead of data where THEIR numbers are hidden in the vast majority of 'regular' tax payers who are the top 50% and top 10%, OK?

Ah Kiki -

If you'd bothered to read it, the cite I posted
http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html
covers the top 1%, which starts at $380,364 AGI and pays 38.02% of individual Federal Income Tax.

If you look at the IRS Statistics of Income info (which I noted as a source) for 2009 'All Returns: Selected Income and Tax Items' at http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html
you won't find figures for the top 0.1% exactly, but folks making $1.5 million or more AGI make up a bit less than .1%, at about 130,000 of 140,490,000 returns. They pay 16.6% of total individual Federal income tax.

If you were as interested in finding the facts as you are in snarking, you could have found this yourself in a couple of minutes. Maybe you just didn't want to know.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:42 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yes, how very deceptive of me...

Yep.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Yes, how very deceptive of me...

Indeed.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:58 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Geezer

You CHOSE this argument, based on a biased selection of data.

"Per the National Taxpayer's Union, based on IRS SOI data, even just the top 10% (who pay close to 70% of all individual income taxes) start at an Adjusted Gross Income of around $114,000.00 (2008 figures). At this level, they're still paying SSA on most all their income, and are spending - rather than saving - a good bit of their income and paying sales tax on it. They probably also own a home and cars they're paying property tax on."

Your own words. Just sayin'.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 2:08 PM

Rappy, it sounds as if you're in favor of the "Buffet Rule". After all, if it never happens that a millionaire pays a lower percentage in taxes than a secretary, then your beloved millionaires will have absolutely nothing to fear, will they?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:13 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer

You CHOSE this argument, based on a biased selection of data.

Of course you'll call any data that doesn't agree with your preconceptions biased, but I'd be interested in hearing how you apply that description to this particular statement.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:15 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Yes, how very deceptive of me...

Indeed.

Good progress. At least now you're not just holding both sides of the conversation in your head.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Yes, how very deceptive of me...

Indeed.

Good progress. At least now you're not just holding both sides of the conversation in your head.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Couple thoughts...

1) I suppose I *MUST BE* talking to myself. After all, Geezer swore months ago he wouldn't talk to me any more. 'Course, he also posted that he was leaving the site, so we see once again how dishonest he really is.

2) If you're hearing voices in your head, Geeze, you might want to see a doctor. You being very old, it just might be that incipient Alzheimer's dementia creeping up on you again. It would explain a lot of your recent ravings and behavior.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They both do sometimes have good points ..."

Except I refuted 6-s points - all of them - and he didn't refute a single one of mine. In case you didn't notice.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

Hehe..... what points do you care for me to argue again? I've been gone for 2 days.

What????? I don't have a mortgage..... I don't have a wife... I don't have kids....

Hell... I'm even living month to month on my cell phone plan and they're glad to give me a great deal on unlimited calling for staying with them at this point with my antique cell phone that can't even snap a Polaroid...

Yeah......

Some people here may think I'm bragging, and maybe I am, but that's only in the RWED. I'd never speak like this to people in the general discussions when politics weren't involved.

If you've got it all, then why are you standing up for people who need handouts that people who have done right have to unwillingly pay for?

If you haven't noticed, our country is 13 Bazillion dollars in debt and climbing. China's just itching to collect on that debt.

Does anybody else see a war coming on when we default on that un-payable loan when we can't pay the piper?

It infuriates me that my personal portion of the national debt is now more than I could afford right away now that I've bought the house and made improvements.

What infuriates me even more, is that I would be expected to pay for 3 other peoples' debts when that time came rather than throwing the idiots all in debtor's prisons.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:23 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"If you've got it all, then why are you standing up for people who need handouts ..."

Like Afghanistan? Iraq? Goldman Sachs? AIG? Countrywide? Those people who got trillions of dollars of our money? No, I'm not standing up for them.

I'm standing up for the people who really need it. I may have it all now - but I was poor. I had just enough public education, opportunity, smarts, and friends to climb out with years of gut-breaking hard work, sacrifice, and not a whole lot of sleep. I KNOW how lucky I got. I know that when it comes to being that lucky others - are not so much.

I get that some people started with far less and have climbed so much more than I have - and truly, I say good for them. But that doesn't mean we get to walk on everyone else because we got ours, so it's OK if others get jack.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:37 PM

Goddammit Woman!!!!!!!

Stand up for yourself!!!!!!

Who cares about them??????

China sure as

doesent!!!!!!

Forget about the starving kids in China for a moment and hang your own guilt on a hook.

I'd rather not take a hammer to you..... but....

BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!
BEAT!

Don't post here to change the world.

Obviously you care a lot!!!!!

Make it count for people you care about in your life rather than wasting your time here or otherwise.

If you really feel the need to make a statement politically, do it on your own local level at town halls.

90% of the responders in the RWED are probably playing with themselves while they reply.

You're better than that!

Get involved locally and teach your kids to!

My younger cousin lived the dream.. He's' an alderman now.
So much responsibility, but at least he's doing something for a town he cares about.;

Life is short.

Are you a Cornerstone......

or are you just a statistic?????

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 4:04 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I've done all I can for my family .... served on city committees to get things done that I thought needed doing ... but it's like that little story -

One day a group of villagers was working in the fields by a river. Suddenly someone noticed a baby floating downstream. A woman rushed out and rescued the baby, brought it to shore and cared for it. But before long there was a steady stream of babies floating downstream. Soon the whole village was involved in the many tasks of rescue work. But one woman broke away from all the people busy rescuing the babies, and took off running upstream. 'Where are you going?' the people called. 'We need you here!' 'I'm going to get the person who's throwing them in!' she said as she ran off.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:22 PM

That being the case, I have no problem with public service and people volunteering their time to help others out.

I'm just not a big fan of 7 dollar taxes on a pack of smokes or 6 dollar taxes on a 30 pack of beer to make it so.

Not to mention the 5-6k per house minimum property taxes on Cook County houses when neighboring states charge a third or less of that.

That's all I'm saying.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:29 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Some people here may think I'm bragging, and maybe I am, but that's only in the RWED.

Bragging, personally I don't believe a word.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:36 PM

Got pics and docs to prove it, although I'd never reveal myself personally to a non-friend online......

You understand, right....

I think you do believe it and you just hate me because I'm better with money than you are, right?

Good luck with that underwater mortgage brother :)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 5:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm even living month to month on my cell phone plan and they're glad to give me a great deal on unlimited calling for staying with them at this point with my antique cell phone that can't even snap a Polaroid... Some people here may think I'm bragging.... and you just hate me because I'm better with money than you are, right?

Better with your money because you live like a troll?

Okay, I don't get it.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:06 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Got pics and docs to prove it, although I'd never reveal myself personally to a non-friend online......

RRRiiight.....

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:19 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Geezer

You CHOSE this argument, based on a biased selection of data.

Some more data.

The taxpayers with Adjusted Gross Income over $5 million (22,596 in 2009) make up .016% of taxpayers and pay 9% of Federal Income Tax.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:38 AM

DALEK!

So lets see that is 22,600 people (yes rounding) times $5,000,000 equals, $113,000,000,000. If they only make a flat 5 mill.

Total personal income in the US in 2010 was, $12,357,113,000,000. That is 12 trillion dollars.

So.....

)$113,000,000,000 / $12,357,113,000,000) * 100 = 0.91

So 0.016% of the US taxpayers made at least 1% of the total money.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Geez, I can't believe this puppy is STILL going on! I think this subject WAY outweighs climate change for how much it comes up, how contentious it is, and how nobody changes anyone's mind.

6ix:

Quote:
I don't have a mortgage..... I don't have a wife... I don't have kids....

Ahhh...

Quote:
If you've got it all, then why are you standing up for people who need handouts that people who have done right have to unwillingly pay for?

So you "done right" by not having a wife and kids. Of COURSE you're doing better than those who do, to puff up your chest and claim you've been more...what, frugal? I can't figure exactly what you're bragging ABOUT, 'cuz having a wife and kids puts one further behind from the very get-go...well, if one pays for the things that wife and those kids NEED, I guess. One could always just let those pay their own way, since they're obviously among the "people who need handouts"...

We started out with custody of Jim's two kids and I, of course, became a "wife" after we lived together for ten years. We've got our house paid off, too, have no credit cards or credit card debt, own everything, cars, motorcycles, etc., outright, and have some retirement money. But I don't kid myself that we wouldn't be even THAT well off, despite our having been damned frugal the 35 years we've been together, if we'd had kids. So take your bragging and shove it...you're only responsible for yourself, so you're ahead of the game to start with!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:54 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
So 0.016% of the US taxpayers made at least 1% of the total money.

Yes. And pay 9% of the total Federal Individual Income taxes on it.

And come to think of it, there's probably a lot of tax-supported expense these folks don't incur.

Although they pay taxes that support public schools, I doubt too many of them send their kids there.

Bet they don't used tax-subsidized public transportation much.

Doubt that they file many Medicare claims.

Due to their use of limos, they probably pay more in gasoline taxes than most folks.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Geez, I can't believe this puppy is STILL going on! I think this subject WAY outweighs climate change for how much it comes up, how contentious it is, and how nobody changes anyone's mind.

6ix:
Quote:
I don't have a mortgage..... I don't have a wife... I don't have kids....
Ahhh...
Quote:
If you've got it all, then why are you standing up for people who need handouts that people who have done right have to unwillingly pay for?
So you "done right" by not having a wife and kids. Of COURSE you're doing better than those who do, to puff up your chest and claim you've been more...what, frugal? I can't figure exactly what you're bragging ABOUT, 'cuz having a wife and kids puts one further behind from the very get-go...well, if one pays for the things that wife and those kids NEED, I guess. One could always just let those pay their own way, since they're obviously among the "people who need handouts"...

We started out with custody of Jim's two kids and I, of course, became a "wife" after we lived together for ten years. We've got our house paid off, too, have no credit cards or credit card debt, own everything, cars, motorcycles, etc., outright, and have some retirement money. But I don't kid myself that we wouldn't be even THAT well off, despite our having been damned frugal the 35 years we've been together, if we'd had kids. So take your bragging and shove it...you're only responsible for yourself, so you're ahead of the game to start with!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

I'm just wondering what your big bitch and gripe and all of your stress is about then.....

Be happy you did right, and laugh at those around you who didn't and can't get out of it now because times are tough. At the very least, stop being a whiner and bitcher about everything and just sit back and enjoy the ride...... seems to me from what you say that you've already bought the ticket.

It's not like you can help them... I'm sure you're not that rich. I had a friend call me tonight about some money. I can't do it. It's not that I can't, but I'm not working now (a paying job, anyhow) and the fraction of my nest egg remaining might be the only reason why a year from now I'm not asking somebody else for money like he was today.

I do have a lot of work to do on the house before winter still, however, and I told him to come by after work next week and we could work something out.

I love the guy... knew him since high school. I just can't give away cash that I'm pretty sure that I'll never get back.

It's not a knock on his character.... He's a great man. If he didn't have a kid with an unwed mother 8 years ago that he loves to death today he'd be set for life the way he's lived his life otherwise. He's just been raped by the courts for years and it's catching up to him now that times are tough.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 4:56 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Yes. And pay 9% of the total Federal Individual Income taxes on it.

And come to think of it, there's probably a lot of tax-supported expense these folks don't incur.

Although they pay taxes that support public schools, I doubt too many of them send their kids there.

Bet they don't used tax-subsidized public transportation much.

Doubt that they file many Medicare claims.

Due to their use of limos, they probably pay more in gasoline taxes than most folks.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Guess what, they live here that mean they pay for those things regardless if they use them.

Oh, and since I used a flat $5 million for each person with the real numbers I would be willing to wager that number for income would be close to 10%

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, October 7, 2011 2:17 AM