Afghanistan, and the pointless war by OPPYH

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Afghanistan, and the pointless war

POSTED BY: OPPYH
UPDATED: Monday, October 31, 2011 15:39
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Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:27 AM

http://icasualties.org/oef/

Another suicide bomber killed more servicemen on a heavily armored bus in Afghanistan.

I'll try to put this delicately. Does Obama have issues?
Why is he not bringing our troops home NOW? How many children are going to have to grow up without a father/mother?
What are troops dying for over there, or more importantly...why are we involved in it?
Wouldn't it be great if the commander in chief actually TOOK charge?

Apparently the promise Obama stated to bring Troops home as soon as he got elected president was BS. As he is now on a 3 year time release plan. Unless our troops can hide in a cave for the next three years....there will be many more casualties.

I shall now toast the safe return of the troops in 2014. .

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Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:47 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Obama has been very disappointing.

MoveOn has been very disappointing. They got started protesting the war, but now a Dem is in office, they put it on the back burner.

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Sunday, October 30, 2011 11:16 AM

DREAMTROVE

I can't say Obama's been a disappointment, he's doing exactly as he said he would do, as I said he would, before he was elected, it's just that the democratic voter base has selective hearing. The man ran on a platform of becoming a dictator with divine rite, and that he would rule with an iron fist, arm the robots, kill americans and start a lot of new wars, oh, and spend trillions on bailouts. Pretty much what he said he'd do, just no one was listening. That hope is a trick thing.

Move On, yes, is Soros, and Soros has been a disappointment, but he's been one for a while. Some of these capitalists are just like the socialists in that they are still thinking how perfect it would be on paper without facing the reality that is already failing in front of them. This is the same issue I have with the Enlightenment.

Oh, and don't worry, I'm not really back, I didn't fall of the wagon, Riona pushed me. Also, in my defense, I was drunk ;)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, October 30, 2011 1:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Obviously.

He made promises, has not kept them, and if the other side had anything at all but a big handful of crazy to offer, he might be out on his ear for it, but they don't.

And here's the rub - yon fair haired boy, name of Bush, and his fascism-fellating friends plunged this country, this nation, into a goddamn nosedive, and when we finally send his ass packing, those same fascism-fellators block every fucking attempt to pull it out, even if those attempts are admittedly weak and pathetic - all the while pointing the finger and trying to blame the folk who are trying to fix the mess they want to get worse so they can hang it on someone else, and their supposed answer to the goddamn problem is to hand the reigns back over to the same kind of mother fucking lunatic who started that nose dive to begin with ?

Oh hell no - and for people OBVIOUSLY willing to burn the whole country to the ground rather than admit their own complicity, enabling stupidity and fault, who would rather destroy all we are than even conceive of anyone else in power, who act like a friggin two year old child throwing a tantrum and breaking toys rather than share them, and yes, I do mean the GOP quite specifically and as a party....

I find the very notion that I should trust them with anything, much less our country, profoundly offensive, they're scum, their political position is in fact a mental illness, and while their actions do not meet the technical or legal requirements to be named treason, they've certainly displayed sufficient enmity towards the constitution and its principles to be considered in violation of their oaths of office even if no one has the balls to properly impeach them.

And sure, we can throw some stones at the Dimwits on the other side as well - but I want it CRYSTAL CLEAR that the GOP has burned any and all bridges with anyone but deluded partisan whackjobs, of which there are no few, and that I consider them and their ilk a far greater threat to everything america ever meant or was intended to mean than any other enemy, foreign or domestic.

I don't give a fuck about their goddamn promises, I know what they're made of, we all do, so save your breath.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, October 30, 2011 2:15 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

He made promises, has not kept them, and if the other side had anything at all but a big handful of crazy to offer, he might be out on his ear for it, but they don't.

And that sums it up. I can't tolerate a culture that is unwilling to change. When it comes to people killing in the name of religion, Jihad, burning their woman and chopping off body parts with swords, disfiguring them with acid....I think that would qualify as a BIG crazy. These aren't the type of people we can change through military actions or words of wisdom. These are without question lunatics. And they will not change.
Unfortunately that is their culture as it was 3,000 years ago, so it is today.

Americans on their soil just make them more dangerous, and to be honest we have no business there.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:13 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
When it comes to people killing in the name of religion, Jihad, burning their woman and chopping off body parts with swords, disfiguring them with acid....I think that would qualify as a BIG crazy.

Oooohhhh, I think I see some blood libel there.

The few psychos who burn women and chop off body parts and shit, they don't represent all of their culture or countries. You are using the actions of a few lunatics to condemn an entire population of 10's of millions.

Should we take the actions of these American psychos to represent what ALL of America is like?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327

And it wasn't their culture 3000 years ago either. WTF? Their culture 3000 years ago was the same as YOUR culture 3000 years ago.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:16 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Oh, and don't worry, I'm not really back, I didn't fall of the wagon, Riona pushed me. Also, in my defense, I was drunk ;)

Haha. That's cute.

Getouttahere. Go do something productive with your life. :)

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Monday, October 31, 2011 4:16 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
And it wasn't their culture 3000 years ago either. WTF? Their culture 3000 years ago was the same as YOUR culture 3000 years ago.

Biblical Jesus was born 2040-ish years ago and died 2011 years ago.

So in a way that's true, considering the religious aspects of our current culture came from the same place. But probably our individual ancestral cultures 3000 years ago were still different. In their case, they were probably worshiping Elil, Enlil, a volcano, or Sin, whereas most of our ancestors were probably members of norse, gothic, or gaelic tribes, with our own pantheons and some nature worship and folk magic/medicine thrown in. Some of us might have some gypsy, slavic, or Roma in us. Anthony might have some Moorish ancestors, but even still that wouldn't be 3000 years ago.

However, the forms of society might have been similar, organized around tribal groups and herding livestock.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 4:45 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The man ran on a platform of becoming a dictator with divine rite, and that he would rule with an iron fist, arm the robots, kill americans and start a lot of new wars, oh, and spend trillions on bailouts.

LOL.

Sometimes, I forgoet how crazy you can be.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, October 31, 2011 4:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
The few psychos who burn women and chop off body parts and shit, they don't represent all of their culture or countries. You are using the actions of a few lunatics to condemn an entire population of 10's of millions.

Should we take the actions of these American psychos to represent what ALL of America is like?

I wish more people would remember this. Because terrorist groups make the news, they get attention. They definitely don't represent all the people in Afghanistan, quite the opposite.

You guys know I lived there. When I did ('58-'61), they WERE living 2000 years ago. The joke was that we were going to "bomb them back to the stone age" at the time, and tho' I know things have modernized and changed dramatically since I was there, think of how difficult it would be to come into the 21st century from, not 200 years back, but 2000 years back!

I want us out of there. Over time, tho' I feel deeply for the people of Afghanistan, it's become obvious we aren't just not getting the job done, we're actually doing as much HARM as good over there--between money going to the wrong people (who in many cases don't even LIVE in Afghanistan, but maintain homes there and live in style elsewhere) to our involvement with the drug trade. Put that together with our men and women dying there, and it's an absurd situation, to say the least.

I want us out as soon as possible. I'm pissed at Obama that he hasn't gotten us out. But I don't want the world thinking everyone in Afghanistan is anything like what we see on the news and hating them. I have friends who've moved here from Afghanistan, and they hate as much as anyone what's going on there. The terrorists no more represent the people of Afghanistan than our own "terrorist" fundies who have killed doctors represent us. Just sayin'.

ETA: CTS, I'd forgotten the "blood libel" thing...hee, hee, hee, thanx for the reminder!
Story: yeah, me too.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 5:33 AM

BYTEMITE

Oh? Did he close Gitmo, repeal the PATRIOT ACT, not hit Pakistan with drones, is he not hostile to Iran, did we not invade Libya, are we not considering attacking Syria, and did he not carry through the Bush bailouts?

The only thing DT said that we can't prove is whether he's killed Americans who haven't renounced their citizenship beyond ordering them into combat. But we have specifically targeted FORMER native born Americans for inciting violence against Americans.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 8:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
http://icasualties.org/oef/

Another suicide bomber killed more servicemen on a heavily armored bus in Afghanistan.

I'll try to put this delicately. Does Obama have issues?
Why is he not bringing our troops home NOW? How many children are going to have to grow up without a father/mother?
What are troops dying for over there, or more importantly...why are we involved in it?
Wouldn't it be great if the commander in chief actually TOOK charge?

Apparently the promise Obama stated to bring Troops home as soon as he got elected president was BS. As he is now on a 3 year time release plan. Unless our troops can hide in a cave for the next three years....there will be many more casualties.

I shall now toast the safe return of the troops in 2014. .

I'm curious - weren't you a big SUPPORTER of the Afghan War when Bush was in charge? I know for a fact you were a big Palin supporter, and she's been all in with both wars, and is very much against Obama pulling the troops out now.

And hey, maybe next time we'll actually stop and fucking THINK for a goddamned minute before committing ourselves to a decades-long war in the first place! (Of course we won't, because we as a nation have the attention span of a gnat on crack, and conservatives have the memory abilities of that guy in "Memento", so good luck with all that...)

It'd be nice if we could just snap our fingers and not be in Afghanistan or Iraq anymore, but the fact is, we can't. That's kinda why you shouldn't just expect to snap your fingers and be IN those countries for no good reason in the first place!

By the way, can you maybe please show us all exactly where and when Obama said he was going to bring all the troops home from Afghanistan as soon as he was elected? All I can find is him saying he was going to back a "troop surge" in Afghanistan. Apparently you have information the rest of us aren't privy to.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 31, 2011 8:34 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Oh? Did he close Gitmo, repeal the PATRIOT ACT, not hit Pakistan with drones, is he not hostile to Iran, did we not invade Libya, are we not considering attacking Syria, and did he not carry through the Bush bailouts?

The only thing DT said that we can't prove is whether he's killed Americans who haven't renounced their citizenship beyond ordering them into combat. But we have specifically targeted FORMER native born Americans for inciting violence against Americans.

Hell, we've done worse than that - we've specifically targeted the CHILDREN of those same Americans, for nothing more than being the children of those American citizens. By the way, Anwar al-Awlaki's 16-year-old son who was just murdered by a U.S. drone strike was also a U.S.-born citizen.

http://www.whistleblower.org/blog/31-2010/1550-the-al-awlaki-slippery-
slope-us-drone-now-killed-innocent-16-year-old-american-son

Bear in mind that no evidence has ever been presented, no charges have ever been filed, no claim has ever been reliably made that this 16-year-old kid was a terrorist, an "enemy combatant", or anything else. He was an American-born citizen - a "natural born citizen", as it were - and he was afforded none of the constitutional protections we supposedly hold dear.

The sins of the father shall apparently be visited upon the son again and again...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 31, 2011 8:43 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Oh? Did he close Gitmo, repeal the PATRIOT ACT, not hit Pakistan with drones, is he not hostile to Iran, did we not invade Libya, are we not considering attacking Syria, and did he not carry through the Bush bailouts?

I'mma confused again. How long has it been since Barrack Hussein Obama was supposed to be a secret Muslim? Seems like he's doing pretty good for one of them. Hate to think of what he'd be up to if he was Jewish.
Not that I'm arguing facts, mind ya, he has done what you accuse him of. Just sayin'.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 9:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I'm curious - weren't you a big SUPPORTER of the Afghan War when Bush was in charge?"

Hello,

I was, in the beginning. A fact for which I will probably always be ashamed.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, October 31, 2011 10:40 AM

BYTEMITE

I've never given much thought to his full name or whatever his beliefs are, it's never seemed relevant.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 11:22 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
By the way, can you maybe please show us all exactly where and when Obama said he was going to bring all the troops home from Afghanistan as soon as he was elected? All I can find is him saying he was going to back a "troop surge" in Afghanistan. Apparently you have information the rest of us aren't privy to.

The quotes I've heard from before he was elected indicate that he would not support a troop surge (though I'm not sure if that was in regards to Iraq or Afghanistan) and instead wanted a gradual year-long pull-out, with all soldiers out of Iraq by August 2010.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/washington/25troops.html

Oddly, when the deadline came, a number of news sources claimed that Obama had met his promise of a complete pullout, including normally right wing Huffington Post. Yet recently Obama has mentioned ANOTHER pullout.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/us-combat-troops-iraq_n_68701
9.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-20123809/obama-announces-full-u.s-
pullout-from-iraq/

I am rather confused by this, and also rather disinclined to believe optimistic projections.

I was unaware of the hit against the 16 year old son. Even though in Chris' thread I took the tact that things aren't quite as bad as Chris was thinking, I do have to agree that the state of our nation is at least pretty bad and seeming to get worse.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:10 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The man ran on a platform of becoming a dictator with divine rite, and that he would rule with an iron fist, arm the robots, kill americans and start a lot of new wars, oh, and spend trillions on bailouts.

LOL.

Sometimes, I forgoet how crazy you can be.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

What, ya missed the whole campaign? You missed Obama saying that he wanted to be the next Reagan? You missed him saying that his administration would represent "No real policy change" over that of George W. Bush? This is what he said on the campaign in 2008.

He promised big bailouts, he promised to expand the wars. He promised armed predator drones, he promised to become our next decider messiah. It wasn't a curveball, it was what was coming all along.

You're really going to try to Crazy Eddie me on the fairly blatant words of Obama's own campaign. Ya missed him in the plaster Parthenon placing himself as Zeus? The guy has delusions, as do his followers.

Obama's only a disappointment if you had unrealistic expectations to begin with.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:14 PM

DREAMTROVE

Byte,

Obama's date for withdrawal from Iraq was always the end of 2011, but it wasn't his, it was the date Bush set when he went in. There's been no policy change.

The plan was always to make Iraq self sufficient so that it can defend itself so we can move on and invade other countries, like Iran, which is still pretty much the plan.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:17 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

By the way, can you maybe please show us all exactly where and when Obama said he was going to bring all the troops home from Afghanistan as soon as he was elected? All I can find is him saying he was going to back a "troop surge" in Afghanistan. Apparently you have information the rest of us aren't privy to.

"I will promise you this: that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank."

Barack Obama
On the presidential campaign trail, Oct. 27, 2007
==================================================

About Palin,
I did defend her because I thought she was being treated unfairly by the media at the time. Turns out I was gravely mistaken, and she deserved all the ill press she got. For arguing with members in the RWED on her behalf, I can only say "I'm sorry".

EDIT:
Forgot to add that I never support war. Vietnam should have been the wake up call America needed about nothing good coming of war, but it wasn't.
And Bush was a terrible president. I didn't vote for him...twice.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 12:27 PM

DREAMTROVE

Good quote fishing, but it's still not a promise of policy change. The withdrawal date was dec. 2011, and still is, and that would fit within that. The "first thing I will do" is a bit of a stretch, but he could always say "I pushed to agreed to the time table first thing" but that would be the time table set by Bush.

Technically of course he was running against McCain, who didn't like the time table and wanted to stay forever like we did in Korea. The problem with this is that it makes it harder to fight the next war.

So, on this one Obama was still running on being Bush, and selling that as better than McCain.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, October 31, 2011 3:39 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oppy, I may disagree in spirit - but you make good point about the simple fact we ain't gonna change someone elses culture by ramming a gun barrel down their throat - maybe obliterate it, but I doubt even that as a possibility.

If they wanna change things, THEY gotta do it, something like that has to come from within their own, rather than externally because all trying that does is give them a handy external enemy to justify it and solidify that culture against - half the reason the more moderate muslims tolerate those asshats is as a reliable bulwark against our aggression, and without that particular problem woulda strung these pissants up themselves some time ago.

And of course, besides it being ineffective, ain't like we got any right to make that decision for em, what they do in their own culture, their own country, that is for them to decide - now if they ever came over here in force and tried to shove those values down our throats, I'd be first in line to ram the iron fist of american sovereignity so far up their ass their dentist would be giving it a manicure, but it ain't for us to inflict our national policy on them any more than it's for them to do so to us.

We can encourage it, using diplomacy and moral persuasion, but I think force is right out as a solution because it is expensive, ineffective, and causes more problems than it ever solved in this respect.

That ain't to say I don't have issues with their cultural foolishness any less than I have with our own or anyone elses - but I'd rather handle that front through RAWA and others than try using an army to beat it into them.

Also - one thing that really pisses me off about the right-left political situation here is that by offering nothing, there's no encouragement for the fucking democrats to up their game, all they gotta do is sit on their laurels and coast by on being slightly less batshit, less exploitive and dangerous than the other guys, and that's just bullshit - even with a lack of opposition one should ALWAYS step up their game, try to set a goddamn example, and Obama hasn't done that, nor has his party, and I am seriously pissed off at them about it.

A plague o both their houses!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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