REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

New genocide in Libya

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Sunday, November 13, 2011 20:20
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Friday, November 4, 2011 7:34 AM

CANTTAKESKY


http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/26/libya-ethnic-cleansing
-tawargha-genocide
/

Quote:

Human Rights Investigations has been following the situation of the Tawergha closely and here we draw the information together and find, based on the reports of witnesses, journalists and human rights workers, the situation of the Tawergha is not just one of ethnic cleansing but, according to the legal definition, genocide.

Captive of the rebels in Sabha

HRI has grave concerns, not only for dark-skinned people in Libya generally, but also for pro-Gaddafi tribes including the Gaddafa and al-Meshashyas. We also have particular concern for the Tuareg of southern Libya who are being accused of being ‘mercenaries’ and under attack from NATO and rebel forces. But the greatest concern is perhaps for the Tawergha.....



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Friday, November 4, 2011 10:59 AM

DREAMTROVE


Yeah, this was a problem during the revolution itself, and our govt. chose to ignore it. I see the MSM is still opting for "Qaddafi Loyalists" as a term to refer to black people.



It's pretty clear what they're after. They have this unihabited Sahara border separating the rabs of north libya from the blacks of south libya, and they want to move all the blacks over that line or kill them, or possibly push them all back into Chad. (they'll never cede the land to Chad, if there's oil on it.)


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, November 4, 2011 11:19 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Yeah, this was a problem during the revolution itself,...

I have reason to suspect the more accurate term (rather than revolution) is "invasion."

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 4, 2011 12:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


One of the risks when you overthrow TPTB, particularly when force is involved. It doesn't automatically mean they will be replaced by a more humane, bettter government.

It is still anyone's guess how this will all pan out, but I was not encouraged by the manner of Gaddafi's capture and death I have to say. There is still a whole lot of people out their armed to the teeth and out for both revenge and power. How that is all going to translate into a peaceful inclusive goverance of that land?

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 2:52 AM

CANTTAKESKY




I am concerned about the silence on the subject, both in the media and by our govts. Reminds me of Rwanda.

We go in for "humanitarian" reasons, so that mass graves of mutilated bodies dumped by Qaddafi won't be found. Then when we find mass graves of mutilated bodies dumped by the invasion forces, ....

Crickets....



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:15 AM

CANTTAKESKY




Just as we suspected. NATO bombed civilians in Libya.

Collateral damage, my ass.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:22 AM

DREAMTROVE



Our media has had trouble demonizing Qaddafi, because there really wasn't anything wrong with him other than that he wouldn't sign our trade treaties, so the we've had to silence our criticism and hold back to a very general "another hitler" model without any closer investigation. We can't of course admit that we are supporting genocide, and we can't admit that there are atrocities on our side, esp. if we can't point to matching ones on the other side.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


In a nutshell:
Quote:

One of the risks when you overthrow TPTB, particularly when force is involved. It doesn't automatically mean they will be replaced by a more humane, bettter government.
To expect otherwise would be naive.
Quote:

they want to move all the blacks over that line or kill them....there really wasn't anything wrong with him other than that he wouldn't sign our trade treaties
Oh crap; welcome back, DT. I think. Things were somewhat saner while you were gone...sigh...



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Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Niki, I find myself continually frustrated that because you personally don't like DT, you attack his every intellectual argument and call Crazy Eddie.

DT's arguments tend to have fairly sound basis.

I make a plea for objectivity.

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:42 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

they want to move all the blacks over that line or kill them....there really wasn't anything wrong with him other than that he wouldn't sign our trade treaties
Oh crap; welcome back, DT. I think. Things were somewhat saner while you were gone...sigh...

DT's not wrong. He knows his history / politics. If he expresses something contradictory to mass propaganda, you should look into it.

Don't get me wrong. Qaddafi was a dick-tator. But that wasn't why he was targeted. The Powers leave dozens of other dick-tators alone.

Qaddafi wouldn't be part of the debt-slavery system. He used his dick-tatorship to create his version of socialist utopia, including free higher education, free land, free health care, etc. I'm surprised you aren't a bigger supporter.

ETA: Here you go, Niki.



Go to the Youtube link to see a list of links to support the claims made in the video. Not saying I agree with everything, but Qaddafi was not as bad as propaganda makes him out to be.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:25 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Apart from what you say about DT, I'd have to say I agree with most of your post. In terms of Arab nations, Libya was not doing too badly under Gaddafi. According to wiki

'From 1977 onward, per capita income in the country rose to more than US $11,000, the fifth-highest in Africa,[50] while the Human Development Index became the highest in Africa and greater than that of Saudi Arabia.[51] This was achieved without borrowing any foreign loans, keeping Libya debt-free.[52] In addition, the country's literacy rate rose from 10% to 90%, life expectancy rose from 57 to 77 years, equal rights were established for women and black people,[dubious – discuss] employment opportunities were established for migrant workers, and welfare systems were introduced that allowed access to free education, free healthcare, and financial assistance for housing. The Great Manmade River was also built to allow free access to fresh water across large parts of the country.[51] In addition, financial support was provided for university scholarships and employment programs.[53]'

However, it was a dictatorship and it did conduct itself as such, brutally oppressing opponents and carrying out human rights abuses. I think that is what the Arab Spring is trying to address, or one of its main aims at least, demanding more political freedom and freedom of dissent and speech. Good on em, as well.

I would assume none of us, including 'DT the Knower of All', actually know very much about Libya, the complexities of power dynamics, its history, the hopes and dreams of its people. Like most of the Arab world, the west has a very poor understanding of these countries and these peoples. How many of us have visited an Arab country? I've done stop overs at Dubai and Bahrain, but they don't count. I know a few friends who have been to Morroco, one who has been to Libya and probably the most popular destination has been Egypt. How many of us would know a Libyan? And for all the promise of the Internet, it remains largely populated by americans writing about american issues. Ever spoken to a Libyan on the net? Has one ever come of fireflyfans.net?

By and large what most people know, they know from a few media soundbites, a scanning of an article here and there. Not really enough to give a picture of what is happening and what is likely to happen.

Whatever is happening, I'm pretty sure that its not the replacement of a dictatorship with a benevolent democratic government and its not genocide either.


It is being written about. You just have to look.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/libyas-rebels-take-revenge/
story-e6frg6ux-1226186182145

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Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Our media has had trouble demonizing Qaddafi, because there really wasn't anything wrong with him other than that he wouldn't sign our trade treaties, so the we've had to silence our criticism and hold back to a very general "another hitler" model without any closer investigation. We can't of course admit that we are supporting genocide, and we can't admit that there are atrocities on our side, esp. if we can't point to matching ones on the other side.





Thing is, we SHOULD be able to admit that, in any military conflict, there are atrocities. Was *IS* an atrocity, by its very nature. Anyone who can drop bombs on cities with a disinterested "Meh" is someone committing atrocities.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, November 7, 2011 4:04 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
....and its not genocide either.



Let's refresh our memories of what genocide is.
Quote:

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/26/libya-ethnic-cleansing
-tawargha-genocide
/

The Genocide Convention

Article 2 of the United Nations issued Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:

“any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such:

1. Killing members of the group;

2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”




Now let's look at NATO-backed "rebels" did this summer:

Quote:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06/07/going-rogue-natos-war-crimes-i
n-libya
/

It’s a story CNN won’t report. Late at night there’s a pounding on the door in Misurata. Armed soldiers force young Libyan women out of their beds at gun-point. Hustling the women and teenagers into trucks, the soldiers rush the women to gang bang parties for NATO rebels—or else rape them in front of their husbands or fathers. When NATO rebels finish their rape sport, the soldiers cut the women’s throats.

Rapes are now ongoing acts of war in rebel-held cities, like an organized military strategy, according to refugees. Joanna Moriarty, who’s part of a global fact-finding delegation visiting Tripoli this week, also reports that NATO rebels have gone house to house through Misurata, asking families if they support NATO. If the families say no, they are killed on the spot. If families say they want to stay out of the fighting, NATO rebels take a different approach to scare other families. The doors of “neutral homes” are welded shut, Moriarty says, trapping families inside. In Libyan homes, windows are typically barred. So when the doors to a family compound get welded shut, Libyans are entombed in their own houses, where NATO forces can be sure large families will slowly starve to death.

These are daily occurrences, not isolated events. And Gadhaffi’s soldiers are not responsible. In fact, pro-Gadhaffi and “neutral” families are targeted as the victims of the attacks. Some of the NATO tactics may have occurred in hopes of laying blame on Gadhaffi’s door. However the attacks are back firing.

....

“Rape parties” are the most graphic examples of NATO’s loss of moral control. One weeping father told the fact-finding delegation how a couple of weeks ago NATO rebels targeted seven separate households, kidnapping a virgin daughter from each pro-Gadhaffi family. The rebels were paid for each kidnapped girl, just as they are paid for each Libyan soldier they kill— like mercenary soldiers. They hustled the girls into trucks, and took them to a building where the girls were locked in separate rooms.

NATO soldiers proceeded to drink alcohol, until they got very drunk. Then the leader told them to rape the virgin daughters in gang bang style. When they’d finished raping the girls, the NATO leader told them to cut the breasts off the living girls and bring the breasts to him. They did this while the girls were alive and screaming. All the girls died hideous deaths. Then their severed breasts were taken to a local square and arranged to spell the word “whore.”



Many in Misurate fled to Tawergha. This is what they found in September 2011.
Quote:

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/09/26/libya-ethnic-cleansing
-tawargha-genocide
/

The main town of the Tawergha region, Tawergha itself (aka Tawargha, Tawurgha. Arabic: ???????), was a town of an estimated 31,250 people (United Nations Environment Program, 2005). It has been emptied of its entire population: its people having either been killed or fled, amidst reports the remaining population in the area are being picked off as they try to find water and food. The town of Tawergha lies about 30-40 miles south of Misrata/Misurata, along the western coast of the Gulf of Sirte. Areas of Misrata occupied by the Tawargha have also been ethnically cleansed, according to the Wall Street Journal.

....

It is highly likely many black refugees from Misrata fled to the town of Tawergha. Many of them and the original residents may have moved on prior to the actual assault, especially as the Misrata brigades were firing Grad rockets at the town. It also seems likely some of the fighters may have escaped to Sabha, Sirte or Bani Walid, where they are currently making a last stand, sure in the knowledge that they are unlikely to survive capture.

However, a report by David Enders, reporting from an empty Tawergha, indicates ethnic cleansing occurred after the rebels took full control:

"According to Tawergha residents, rebel soldiers from Misrata forced them from their homes on Aug. 15 when they took control of the town." (Our emphasis)

....

Since the collapse of the Gaddafi government in western Libya in late August 2011, mass graves containing the bodies of people killed during the conflict have been reported on a weekly basis in Tripoli and other areas, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).



Quote:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/13/123999/empty-village-raises-conc
erns.html#ixzz1d1igcZP9


"The Misrata people are still looking for black people," said Hassan, a Tawergha resident who's now sheltering in a third camp in Janzour, six miles east of Tripoli. "One of the men who came to this camp told me my brother was killed yesterday by the revolutionaries."



Quote:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=19674

Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) must do more to protect black Libyans, Amnesty International said today, after allegations that members of the Tawargha tribe were detained, threatened and beaten on suspicion of fighting for Gaddafi forces.
Some Tawarghas who’ve been detained in Tripoli are said to have been made to kneel facing the wall and then been beaten with sticks and whips. Others have simply vanished after being arrested at checkpoints or taken from hospitals by armed revolutionaries (thuwwar).

Tawargha, a western Libyan town that remained loyal to Colonel al-Gaddafi and was used as a base for his troops, is associated in the minds of Misratah residents with some of the worst human rights violations committed during the conflict.
...

In addition to Tawarghas, other black Libyans including from the central Sabha district as well as sub-Saharan Africans, continue to be at particular risk of reprisals and arbitrary arrests, on the basis of their skin colour and widespread reports that al-Gaddafi forces used "African mercenaries" to repress supporters of the NTC.



In summary:

1. We know they are targeting black Libyans.
2. We know they are engaging in severe human rights abuses of black Libyans.
3. We know there are mass graves of mutilated bodies of black Libyans.

How bad does it have to be to qualify as a "genocide"?

Quote:

How many of us have visited an Arab country? ...How many of us would know a Libyan? ....
I lived in the Middle East for 3.5 years. I have visited Arab countries as well as know plenty of people who have lived there longer than I have. My husband has traveled extensively throughout the continent of Africa, including having visited Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Egypt. No, he hasn't been to Libya, but he has a good feel for what the region is like.

Quote:

By and large what most people know, they know from a few media soundbites, a scanning of an article here and there. Not really enough to give a picture of what is happening and what is likely to happen.
True. This is why we need to listen closely to people who HAVE been there and are reporting what they see. We need to especially pay attention to independent sources and human rights watch groups.

Here are more links.

http://www.obv.org.uk/news-blogs/black-genocide-libya-why-silence
http://m.news24.com/news24/Africa/News/Libyas-Sirte-filled-with-acrid-
smell-20111021

http://rt.com/news/mutilated-corpses-libya-rights/
https://libya360.wordpress.com/2011/11/01/human-rights-investigations-
on-crimes-of-obama-and-his-nato-in-libya
/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304887904576395143328336
026.html


Again, how bad does the pattern have to be before we declare it a genocide?


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 4:46 AM

BYTEMITE


Also, sometimes you can figure out things with logic, even if you have no experience (at all really) to speak of. I tend to assume the worst (with reason), which often turns out to be correct.

CTS: Yeah, that's pretty bad. I do have a question though. We know the rebels want to kill pro-Ghaddafi forces, and possibly blacks. So why is NATO doing the grunt work for that? Your articles seem to suggest that each soldier is being paid for each death and each girl - is it corruption on the level of individual NATO soldiers, or does it go higher up?

Obviously, the hush-up is in part white-washing for hearts and minds, and in part people covering their own ass. But I also want to know whether the higher-ups have had any INVOLVEMENT with the whole pay-for-kill/girl thing.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 5:55 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

Told you so.

-F

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Monday, November 7, 2011 6:31 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I have some left-ish friends who were cheering the fall of Kaddafi, and I gotta say I was just shaking my head (on this board, too, if you recall) at the naivete of it all.

Doesn't anyone find it odd that we're not invading Saudi Arabia or Syria? After all, if you want to talk about sheer religious extremism and lack of personal freedoms, these two nations exceed Libya by a long shot.

So, here is what's really going on:


Washington's Man in Libya
Quote:

Stephen Lendman

After ousting independent leaders, Washington replaces them with puppets. Mustafa Abdul Jalil is interim chairman. Until October 23, Mahmoud Jibril was prime minister.

Abdurraheem el-Keib replaced him, a dual US/Libyan citizen. He lived in America, holds a doctorate in electrical engineering, and taught at North Carolina State University and the University of Alabama for years.

A businessman and prominent Tripoli family scion, he also taught at the UAE's Petroleum Institute. Big Oil giants fund it.


He played no part in the conflict. Last August, Washington parachuted him in as their man. Past puppet rulers were installed the same way.

After WW II, Syngman Rhee came in from Hawaii to run South Korea. In 1955, Ngo Dinh Diem became South Vietnam's president the same way, brought in from New Jersey.

In February 2004, after US marines ousted Haiti's Jean-Bertrand Aristide, south Florida's Gerard Latortue was anointed interim prime minister. Ordinary people had no say each time.

Keib's not only Washington's man, he's Big Oil's man, chosen to assure they control Libya's oil, gas and whatever else they want. Forget about sovereign rights. Only imperial and corporate ones matter.

It's the American way, also the British, French, Italian, German and Canadian, wanting their share of war spoils.

Libya's puppet Transitional National Council (TNC) "elected" Keib. Some election, about as legitimate as America's money controlled ones. They're all theater, not democracy. Corporatists win every time. Voters are entirely left out.

Keib will choose puppet cabinet ministers and be Washington's man until something called "elections" next year, or maybe the year after if postponed. It hardly matters. Democracy's not on the ballot.

On November 2, NSNBC said fighting continues between rebel rat factions, their elements and imperial forces, as well as "all of the above" against Jamahiriya loyalists committed to keep struggling until free.

Keib's interim government will form a constitutional counsel to replace Gaddafi's Green Book direct democracy with Western-style power. It'll be written to serve monied interests. Libyans will have no say.

NATO's "successful mission" slaughtered tens of thousands, ravaged the country, and replaced a people's regime with imperial rogues. Jamahiriya loyalists won't tolerate them. Expect protracted conflict for years.


http://mostlywater.org/washingtons_man_libya

First of all, the USA almost never militarily entered another nation without it being a sheer land- or resources-grab. Any nation that we either invaded or militarily "assisted" has wound up more violent, poorer, less educated, more unstable and more tyrannical than before. I can list a couple-dozen nations that we "helped" into military tyranny, and a few that we have utterly destroyed (one prime example is Afghanistan, when we called the mujahideen "freedom fighters" and sent them Stinger missiles.)

So, another successful boot-stomp. Yipee.

This pretty much goes in line with the IMF's and the EU's rolling over Greek national sovereignty. When money rules; you can forget about self-determination.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:14 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

Told you so.

-F

I'm pissed the new boss is killing and raping with MY taxpayer money.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 7:43 AM

BYTEMITE


Aren't they always?

Thanks for that, Sig.

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Monday, November 7, 2011 10:01 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
...is it corruption on the level of individual NATO soldiers, or does it go higher up?

...But I also want to know whether the higher-ups have had any INVOLVEMENT with the whole pay-for-kill/girl thing.

You and I both want to know.

My guess is the higher-ups are in on it. I can't imagine the mercs talking about collecting payments unless the higher-ups are actually paying. I don't see them stopping the financial support, in shock of what's transpired.

Rape and terror and genocide is often used as a weapon of war to destabilize the region to prevent organization, vacate populations for territorial looting, and shock-and-awe to undermine reprisal. My guess is the higher-ups probably said, "terrorize them" to keep them busy while we set up our new puppet regime. Then some operations officer said, "I'll pay you per girl," and it went on from there.

I have no proof of the involvement of the higher ups though. Except that payment-per-girl thing is pretty damning.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Monday, November 7, 2011 6:49 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's scary stuff. Why couldn't we have just stuck with the no fly zone thing? Even my Quadruple S wouldn't have acted unless there was a strong good plan etc.

I don't want all the Toirig to get killed, they're interesting and they are featured in Bear Grills' episode about that region. Plus genocide is evil pure and simple of course, but I've heard of that tribe and when people are familiar with something it helps them to care more. Which is why the more we know about different people and things the more we can care about them.



"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, November 11, 2011 7:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I don't want all the Toirig to get killed, ...

You seem like a sweet person, but I am a little disturbed by the word "all." I think the sentence would sound infinitely better without it.

Otherwise, of course, I agree. I am only sorry you and I don't get to decide our foreign policy. ;)

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Wow you're right, that "all" is a little creepy. I think I probably said "all" because that is a genocider's goal, to kill "all" of a group.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, suddenly Libya has fallen off the front page. I imagine that if things were going well, we'd be hearing all about it. So I assume things are going NOT so well.

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