REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

OWS protesters have strange ideas about fairness

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, November 18, 2011 06:03
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Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


BY A. BARTON HINKLE, Media General News Service

The Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement, obsessed with fairness, has benefitted from the lack of it. The protesters don't think so — but that is because many of them have not thought enough.

The demonstrators resent disparity. So consider the disparity in coverage of OWS and the Tea Party. A single (still unsubstantiated) allegation that someone in the crowd at a 2010 Tea Party rally in Washington hurled a racial slur at Rep. John Lewis sufficed to prove the entire movement a kissin' cousin of the KKK. But that "Google Wall Street Jews" guy? A lone nut. As for the signs calling for the "death of capitalism" and telling Wall Street bankers to "Jump, you [expletives]" and declaring "capitalism can't be fixed — we need revolution"? Unrepresentative, surely. Ditto the 5:30 Oakland seminar on Marxism 101, and the dude in the Lenin T-shirt, and. . . .

Don't feel bad if you missed such tidbits on the nightly news. Every movement has its whack jobs, but those on the left get politely overlooked.

See also: the asymmetry of municipal authorities' approach to free speech. The Richmond Tea Party is justifiably cheesed off that it had to shell out thousands of dollars for permits and whatnot to hold rallies in Kanawha Plaza downtown, while OWS protesters squatted there for more than two weeks free of charge. Tea Party groups elsewhere have reported similar disparate treatment. As the Atlanta Journal-Constitution noted last week, "Tea Party co-founder Julianne Thompson . . . has made a request in writing after being denied permission to hold an event downtown because city officials said there was too much red tape and cost involved." Yet Atlanta's Democratic Mayor Kasim Reed issued an executive order granting special permission to OWS protesters to camp in Woodruff Park until Nov. 7.

Cops in Albany have refused to enforce a curfew near the capitol. A Tennessee magistrate has been refusing to approve warrants for OWS protesters arrested in Nashville. In Oakland, Mayor Jean Quan actually marched with the protesters a few weeks ago. Safety and sanitation issues eventually led to their eviction; they responded by throwing paint, bottles, M-80s and other items at the cops. The cops responded with force, and an Iraq veteran was seriously injured.

Reaction among OWS sympathizers was electric, with many denouncing police brutality.

Yet a survey by Democratic pollster Douglas Schoen of OWS protesters in Zucotti Park showed 31 percent "would support violence to advance their agenda." That figure is incorrect; it is closer to 100 percent. Never mind the occasional guillotine poster, this week's rioting in Oakland, or the sometime enthusiasm for mass-murdering Bolsheviks. OWS demands more government redistribution of wealth — a process entirely dependent on the use of force. (Just ask actor Wesley Snipes, currently doing a three-year stretch in the federal pen for tax evasion.) Then there is the hatred of capitalism ("DEATH TO CAPITALISM"; "CAPITALISM DOESN'T WORK"; etc.). The alternative to a free market is, of course, an unfree one, requiring that somebody make sure people do not go around exchanging goods and services through mutual consent. How do you stop consensual activity? Take a wild guess.

All of this makes it abundantly clear that OWS prefers forced equality over liberty. Many people do. But the OWS protesters seem singularly obtuse about what this entails. As J.R. Lucas observed some years ago, equality has more than one dimension, and efforts to tame economic inequalities can produce bureaucratic empires that crystallize "an inequality of power . . . more dangerous than the inequality of wealth to which objection was originally made."

Granted, political inequality may not greatly disturb the consciences of OWS protesters, who in some locations have adopted a "revolutionary progressive stack," which "encourages women and traditionally marginalized groups [to] speak before men, especially white men." Lining up speakers by race and gender might not seem fair on an individual level. But for much of the radical left, individuals are irrelevant: The class struggle is all that matters, and the only way to end domination by one class is, apparently, to impose domination by a different one. Vladimir I. Somebody-or-other called that the dictatorship of the proletariat, if memory serves.

But then, serious thought about fairness is meager among OWS protesters — whose top concern, based on a textual analysis of the 99 Percent blog, is student debt. Repaying loans can be hard, and this evidently makes the obligation unfair in the eyes of many demonstrators. But loans are made because borrowers promise to pay the money back. If borrowers break their promises, the loans will dry up, which would not be fair to future would-be borrowers. The keeping of promises is a basic moral duty — and a self-imposed one to boot. But it can seem unfair, if you have the moral philosophy of a 4-year-old.

The OWS focus on money and economics only exposes the poverty of its quasi-Marxist critique. Equality has more than one dimension. William Niskanen, who died last week, once invited us to consider two young men: "One . . . is healthy and handsome, spends his days on the beach, has his pick of young women companions, and makes $10,000 a year. Another . . . is confined to a wheelchair, has congenital body odor, has never had an intimate relationship, and, with no other life, makes $100,000 a year as an expert computer programmer. In this case, who is worse off? Who should redistribute what to whom and how?"

The OWS "progressive stack," redistributing the right to speak, already has provided a partial answer. For a fuller one, look up Kurt Vonnegut's short story "Harrison Bergeron." It is supposed to be satire. Turns out it was prophecy.

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:09 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I remember Harrison Bergeron. An excellent read, and a good cautionary tale. It is important not to exclude Satire from Prophecy. Satire amplifies existing absurdities so that we may study them. It does not forge the absurdities, but it can show that following a particular course too far leads to madness.

The article/essay above also amplifies some absurdities for its own purposes, while ignoring the absurdities that caused OWS to form. More and more in this country, we see people perceiving life in a monochromatic way. "The only answer is enforced equality of everything!" "The only answer is unchecked Freedom in everything!"

If you've struck upon 'the only answer' then I'm afraid your only answer is probably also the wrong one.

The truth is that various businesses have attained the power to wreck society, and have not been employing their power wisely. The truth is Greed can go too far if allowed to do so. That doesn't mean we should turn the Dial to 11 in the opposite direction. It means we need to find a happy -2 to +2 that most people can live with.

Unfortunately, everyone is arguing about -11 and +11.

The OWS movement certainly doesn't have the answer to our problem. But they are our canary in the coal mine. So was the Tea Party, ironically enough. Two groups of people who were very upset and very sick and very tired about the way things are going. Rather than calling them stupid, we'd better figure out how to fix some of the problems that are making them squawk. If we simply call them idiots and dismiss their ire, we'll find ourselves gasping our own last breaths soon enough.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


There you go again. Whinging about fairness.

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think fairness is important to everyone. But everyone does not agree on what is fair.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:24 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Sorry, when you've pissed off a substantial faction of the population by fucking them over and they have you backed against a wall with the political equivalent of a pistol stuck down your gullet...

It's bloody late in the day to go whining about "fairness" to the people you showed none.

CRY. SOME. MORE.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, November 11, 2011 2:27 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I remember Harrison Bergeron. An excellent read, and a good cautionary tale.
And one of my favorite movies as well, with Sean Astin as Harrison.

ETA: Oh look, I found it on Youtube.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 11, 2011 2:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



The question I have is, do you really not get it, or are you simply pretending not to get it, in order to maintain your feigned, misdirected outrage ?





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, November 11, 2011 2:34 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The question I have is, do you really not get it, or are you simply pretending not to get it, in order to maintain your feigned, misdirected outrage ?
My poor opinion of the Tea Party doesn't come from biased news reports. It comes from the on-record xenophobic platforms and statements of Tea Party politicians like Michele Bachmann.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 11, 2011 3:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


CTS

I thought my remark was directed towards Frem. I see your post has the same time stamp as mine.

But to the point of the comparisons between OWS and the TEA party rallies, I agree w/ the writer of the article that the media does not give a fair shake at how they portray both sides.

And as for your poor views on the TEA party, I'd say this article only proves the point. Michelle Bachmann doesn't run the TEA party crowd, and I'm guessing that you're taking her views considerably out of proportion and assigning it value to the entire TEA party movement.

'xenophobic' comments ? Like what? And what does any of that have to do w/ the TEA party ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 11, 2011 5:38 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The Tea Party is a political party. OWS is simply a bunch of people. They're not the same type of entity.

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Friday, November 11, 2011 5:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
The Tea Party is a political party. OWS is simply a bunch of people. They're not the same type of entity.


And you could not be more wrong, or have it so completely backwards.

The people who showed up for the TEA party rallies where just that - PEOPLE. They weren't organized union drones, beholden to appear through any intimidation, but regular folk who were upset at the govt and wanted their voices to be heard.

People who took time out of their busy lives, paid their own way to cross the country and show up at rallies, and weren't paid for their troubles or their time, simply to show up and carry a sign.

Seriously, how could anyone be so blind as to make such a comparison between the two ? Don't get me started. It's nearly the weekend, and I've got stuff to do.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 11, 2011 5:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Here's the difference.

Have you ever been in Chicago around x-mas? The downtown stores have marvelous displays that attract a lot of attention. And of course there are a lot of people out holiday shopping. Suppose a very, very large crown gathers in front of a display - enough to block not only the sidewalk but the street, and not only the street, the entire block. And then more people join b/c it's a lot of people. Would you be able to demand a permit from those people to gather? If you tried, who would you demand it from?

Without central leadership, it's just a crowd of individuals, drawn by the same things.

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Friday, November 11, 2011 6:31 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But to the point of the comparisons between OWS and the TEA party rallies, I agree w/ the writer of the article that the media does not give a fair shake at how they portray both sides.


You mean, like this?



Quote:
Michelle Bachmann doesn't run the TEA party crowd, and I'm guessing that you're taking her views considerably out of proportion and assigning it value to the entire TEA party movement.
See, that IS a REAL problem. Why are Tea Partiers allowing the likes of Michele Bachmann to REPRESENT the Party on Capitol Hill? Did she hijack the name? If so, why aren't more Tea Partiers protesting the hijack? Methinks, it is because they approve of her Tea Party leadership and the Tea Party Caucus.

And what about Tea Party support for the likes of Glenn Beck?

The truth is, the Tea Party and the Republican Party are twins, fraternal if not identical. They both want more or less the same policies, in action and in word. They pay lip service to smaller govt, all the while voting for bigger government in the military, Iraq and Afghan wars, border control, abortion prohibition, drug prohibition, etc.

More fairness in the media cannot solve THAT problem.

Quote:
'xenophobic' comments ? Like what? And what does any of that have to do w/ the TEA party ?


The pattern of Tea Party platform is xenophobic. It is a very nationalistic US vs. THEM attitude of "Fer'ners are out to get us. Fer'ners will destroy apple pie and baseball. We won't survive without an aggressive national and foreign policy against fer'ners (Canadians and Europeans excepted)."

But here are specifics that when seen together as a big picture, distills to the phobic attitude above:

Quote:
http://www.issues2000.org/2012/Michele_Bachmann_Immigration.htm

To do that, I would build a fence on America's southern border o every mile, on every yard, on every foot, on every inch of the southern border. I think that's what we have to do, not only build it, but then also have sufficient border security and enforce the laws that are on the books with the ICE agents, with our border security.
Every yard, every foot, every inch? Of the SOUTHERN border (and not the northern one)? Yeah, sounds like phobia to me. Racist xenophobia to be exact.

Quote:
Because the immigration system worked very well up until the mid-1960s when liberal members of Congress changed the immigration laws. What works is to have people come into the US with a little bit of money in their pocket legally with sponsors so that if anything happens to them, they don't fall back on the taxpayers to take care of them. And then they also have to agree to learn the speak the English language, learn American history and our constitution. That's the American way.
Implying that immigrants today don't learn to live the "American" way as much as they used to (which is a myth), that "good" immigrants need to assimilate and drop their fer'ner ways. Again, it is a very narrow, nationalistic perspective that discourages cultural diversity.

What you're looking at is the Bachmann Immigration Paradox. Summarized, the Paradox looks like this.

1. Pre-1960's immigration laws (open immigration) worked very well because immigrants who came were assimilated and self-sufficient.

2. Post-1960's immigration laws were changed by liberals (spearheaded by the Kennedys) to our current limited quota system, where only highly skilled labor and immediate families were allowed to immigrate to the USA. This ruined our immigration system. Post-Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965, the immigrants who came were highly skilled talent and immediate families of citizens who refused to speak English and who came only live off welfare.

3. The Paradox is solves when you realize the INA of 1965 shifted the demographic of immigrants. You see, in 1924 Congress passed the National Origins Act and the Asian Exclusion Act that preferentially gave quotas to Western European immigrants over southern/eastern European and Asian ones. The INA of 1965 eliminated the preference, and gosh darn it, ruined a good, working system.


The INA of 1965 allowed a larger percentage of immigrants to come from Asia, Latin America, eastern and southern Europe, instead mostly from Western Europe (like it was 1924-1965).

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/09/13/317735/michele-bachmann-wh
ite-immigration/

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationa
lity_Act_of_1965

4. What Bachman is really saying is the immigration system that works is open immigration from Canada and western Europe (because they don't come to live off welfare) and closed immigration from Asia and Latin America (because even the few who come can't be American enough or are all parasite criminals). This is consistent with her comments about an anal-retentive border fence on the SOUTHERN border.

5. Bachmann is vehement about narrowing current already narrow immigration policies to as few immigrants as possible: no "amnesty, visa expansion, or "Guest Worker" program."

What she really means is she doesn't mind open immmigration if the immigrants are Christian white folks like herself. She would be happy to effectively shut down immigration for everyone else.

Yeah, xenophobic.

What does this have to do with the Tea Party?

She's still the leader of the Tea Party Caucus, isn't she?


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 11, 2011 7:05 AM

STORYMARK


Good ol' Rappy. Ploiticians who campaigned as Tea Parties, and persue their policies DON'T represent the Tea Party....

But Orlando Jones DOES represent the OWSers.

Having documented money trails showing astro-turfing of the Tea Parties means they're totally grass-roots, with no big-money ties.

But a lack of such evidence proves the OWSers are a bunch of Soros puppets.

The Tea Party ISN'T a political party - despite the candidates that ran as such.

But the OWS movement IS.... even though there has been not a one person to run under the banner.

Ah, Rappyland. The place where intelligence goes to be smothered slowly to a painful death.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, November 11, 2011 7:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
] My poor opinion of the Tea Party doesn't come from biased news reports. It comes from the on-record xenophobic platforms and statements of Tea Party politicians
...and many more. The words out of their own mouths condemn them, it needs nothing more.
Quote:
People who took time out of their busy lives, paid their own way to cross the country and show up at rallies, and weren't paid for their troubles or their time, simply to show up and carry a sign.
Damn, I didn't realize we were part of the Tea Party! That's exactly what WE do. Huh. The more I'm involved in this thing, the more amusing Raptor is, which is kinda neat. Better than just boring, anyway.
Quote:
Without central leadership, it's just a crowd of individuals, drawn by the same things.
Yup. Which is both a good and a bad thing. Unless some kind of organization/leadership is added, it'll fizzle. But even if it does, it'll take a LONG time to do so, and yes, we are the canary.

And yes, more than any other post, your first one Anthony pretty much nailed it. The irony is, people are protesting Wall Street, when in actuality it's the politicians who gave Wall Street the green light to behave like greedy bastards, so they're just doing what comes naturally. The problem isn't Wall Street or the rich, it's those who allowed them, hell, ENCOURAGED them, to get that way. There's the rub.



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Friday, November 11, 2011 11:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


1kiki - you're kidding, right ? Please tell me you're not even attempting 1 iota of seriousness with your silly comparison. Please.

CTS - Nailed it. With the cartoon. After that ?

Quote:
The pattern of Tea Party platform is xenophobic. It is a very nationalistic US vs. THEM attitude of "Fer'ners are out to get us. Fer'ners will destroy apple pie and baseball. We won't survive without an aggressive national and foreign policy against fer'ners (Canadians and Europeans excepted)."


There's zero 'xenophobia' here at all, what so ever. The ILLEGALS streaming across the border, and yes, it happens to be the Southern border, are here in the MILLIONS, not 10's or 1000's. That sheer #, more than anything, is the issue. Not the color of their skin, not the language they speak , not the education they lack, ... how anyone ignores the inherent problems with that huge a community of ILLEGAL aliens, regardless of where they're from, is baffling. I'm pro America, no matter what accent or color of the individual waving the flag. I think MOST ( thought clearly not all ) Americans, Tea Party folk, are of like mind.


Quote:
Good ol' Rappy. Ploiticians who campaigned as Tea Parties, and persue their policies DON'T represent the Tea Party....

But Orlando Jones DOES represent the OWSers.


Bachmann never suggested anyone be killed, did she ? Orlando Jones did.

Quote:


Having documented money trails showing astro-turfing of the Tea Parties means they're totally grass-roots, with no big-money ties.


wow. you really do live in an opposite world, don't you?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 11, 2011 12:33 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
... how anyone ignores the inherent problems with that huge a community of ILLEGAL aliens, regardless of where they're from, is baffling.
Here is the thing. How would we deal with millions of aliens if they were LEGAL aliens? Well, that is how we deal with the illegal ones.

Cause at the end of the day, "ILLEGAL" is simply what you choose it to be. There are a lot of things that are illegal that doesn't have to be. And the world won't fall apart if you suddenly make them legal.

Not paying huge taxes doesn't have to be illegal. Smoking pot doesn't have to be illegal. Growing cabbages in your backyard and selling them to your neighbors doesn't have to be illegal. Selling lemonade in the park withut paying a license fee first doesn't have to be illegal.

Crossing some arbitrary line someone drew in the sand so you could make an honest living on the other side doesn't have to be illegal.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 11, 2011 12:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

Here is the thing. How would we deal with millions of aliens if they were LEGAL aliens? Well, that is how we deal with the illegal ones.


Wrong! The problems with them being illegal is that they don't pay taxes, while being a drain on the social services, as well as a failure to acclimate to the US culture.

Quote:
Cause at the end of the day, "ILLEGAL" is simply what you choose it to be. There are a lot of things that are illegal that doesn't have to be. And the world won't fall apart if you suddenly make them legal.



Wrong. Being a LEGAL immigrant involves taking a test, knowing the history of our nation, understanding the basics of how this govt works, etc... it's not JUST a couple of extra letters on a word.

Quote:
Not paying huge taxes doesn't have to be illegal. Smoking pot doesn't have to be illegal. Growing cabbages in your backyard and selling them to your neighbors doesn't have to be illegal. Selling lemonade in the park withut paying a license fee first doesn't have to be illegal.

Crossing some arbitrary line someone drew in the sand so you could make an honest living on the other side doesn't have to be illegal.


It's not 'arbitrary', or shouldn't be. If you want to reform the process, fine. But don't just rubber stamp everyone who is here and say 'You're legal!', when they've done absolutely nothing to earn it, and because it'll be the easy way to solve the problem.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, November 11, 2011 1:21 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...when they've done absolutely nothing to earn it,
Uh... did you earn it? Did your parents earn it?

Who the fuck earns their citizenship?

That's like saying a princess earned her royalty.

You're either lucky enough to be born here. Or you came here.

No one earns it.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 11, 2011 1:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...when they've done absolutely nothing to earn it,
Uh... did you earn it? Did your parents earn it?

Who the fuck earns their citizenship?

That's like saying a princess earned her royalty.

You're either lucky enough to be born here. Or you came here.

No one earns it.


We're not talking about me. My family has lived here since before the revolutionary war. But were I to move to say...Australia, or New Zealand, I'd fully expect to go through a similar waiting period, where I'd have to learn about the country I'm wanting to enter.


And yeah, it has to be earned. Tell those who have come from half way around the world, learned the language, often with NO ONE to help , but their own desire to make a better life for themselves, those who have done it the RIGHT way, that they didn't 'earn' it.

Why should anyone living just on the other side of the border get a free pass, while those who traveled in make shift boats, across shark infested waters, risking everything. to end up living right next door to each other ? Talk about 'fairness'. Good grief !





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:23 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We're not talking about me. My family has lived here since before the revolutionary war.
It's still a matter of luck that you were born into the right family in the right country. It is not earned.

Quote:
And yeah, it has to be earned. Tell those who have come from half way around the world, learned the language, often with NO ONE to help , but their own desire to make a better life for themselves, those who have done it the RIGHT way, that they didn't 'earn' it.
Nope. They didn't. Cause you have GOT to know that most illegals come that way. And yet, look, they are still illegal and despised.

Cause the way the law reads right now, what you do AFTER you legally or illegally enter the country has nothing to do with citizenship or anything else. What matters is the right paperwork filed with the right fees proving that you are either a highly skilled talent or a immediate relative of a US citizen/permanent resident. That makes you legal or illegal, deserving of living here or not.

Quote:
Why should anyone living just on the other side of the border get a free pass, while those who traveled in make shift boats, across shark infested waters, risking everything. to end up living right next door to each other ? Talk about 'fairness'. Good grief !
You have heard of illegals smuggled in shipping containers right? And illegals who brave evil coyotes across the deserts? And illegals floating on life rafts and dinghies?

No, it isn't fair that they risked everything to come here to work hard, learn English, and get a good education for their kids--that they get treated as criminals by the people who were lucky to have been born on the other side of the border. They get treated like that because they weren't born lucky enough to fill out the right paperwork with the right fees. Then when they're caught, they get sent to abusive detention centers.

No, it's not fair.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:45 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Being a LEGAL immigrant involves taking a test, knowing the history of our nation, understanding the basics of how this govt works, etc... it's not JUST a couple of extra letters on a word.
Actually, you take a test to become a citizen. You don't take a test to become legal.

But I like the proposal. Let's redefine LEGAL as "Anyone who can prove Engish fluency and pass a history/civics exam."

So you'd be ok with Mexicans and Chinese and Croatians and Ugandans coming here, as long as they meet that ONE requirement of passing those exams?

I am all in favor of it.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 4:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm still laughing my ass off over Rappy, who insists that life isn't fair, crying yet again about what's not fair.

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 4:41 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Let's redefine LEGAL as "Anyone who can prove Engish fluency and pass a history/civics exam."

Hello,

Let's not. I do not wish to be deported. Though I'm not sure where they'd send me.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, this thread became immediately boring...just Raptor getting more attention. Did he REALLY want to make people take an English and fluency exam? Guess it shouldn't surprise, but omigawd I'm glad I don't pay him much attention anymore. That's insane (but is trying to be implemented in some of the more redneck states, I believe). Not even amusing, just plain sick, and shows yet again that he's not here to communicate, people, just to toss out provocative shit.



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Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm still laughing my ass off over Rappy, who insists that life isn't fair, crying yet again about what's not fair.


How is that remotely funny ? While it's true, the universe isn't 'fair' , that doesn't mean we should just resign ourselves to mindless anarchy, does it? You seem to think so.


Quote:
Sez Niki - Did he REALLY want to make people take an English and fluency exam?


Umm, I never said those words, but there already is an exam LEGAL immigrants must past to become a US citizen. Might be a good idea if more folks retook their HS civics and US history class, though.

CTS - You sound like an open borders type, who think that nations should just drop all pretense of national jurisdiction, and that everyone live by one rule, mandated by some body like the U.N., right ? Because you and I are seeing this issue from vastly different view points. I happen to believe in and appreciate the United States of America, and it's systems, warts and all. I'm glad more and more want to come here, to enjoy freedom. I wish others would start emulating what we have here, and set up their own version of our constitution, so that maybe they could spread freedom across the world. I get it, that it's far easier to come here, where they can take part in what's already set up, instead of doing the heavy lifting. But we can't take EVERYBODY. Nor would we even want to!

And sorry, but being a citizen means you're here LEGALLY. If I come into you house, start eating your food, taking showers in your bathroom, and watching t.v., but you never invited me, hey... I'm not illegal, am I ? Even if I vacuum your floor and cut your lawn, it's cool that I crash at your place, right? I mean, you have no reason to call the cops, if I'm not breaking anything, or harrassing your family. Oh,and I have an uncle, and a few friends, who want to come over and stay. Just for a while. If that's ok. They won't make too much noise. Oh, sure, my uncle loves to drink a bit too much on the weekends, but who doesn't, right? He's harmless. He's actually calmed down a bit, since his brief time in jail. But don't worry about that.

Oh, can I borrow the keys to your car ? I need to run a few errands. I won't be too long. And can I have some gas money, too?



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:51 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Let's not. I do not wish to be deported.
Don't worry, Anthony. I took the naturalization test. If I can pass it, anyone can.

They give you the questions AND answers beforehand. They aren't hard.

In PDF, the questions are:

http://www.uscis.gov/USCIS/Office%20of%20Citizenship/Citizenship%20Res
ource%20Center%20Site/Publications/100q.pdf

They even offer multimedia study material.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.749cabd81f5ffc8fba713d
10526e0aa0/?vgnextoid=982a309186e89210VgnVCM10000025e6a00aRCRD&vgnextchannel=c242df6bdd42a210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:40 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
CTS - You sound like an open borders type,


You figured that out, didya?

Quote:
But we can't take EVERYBODY. Nor would we even want to!
And not EVERYBODY wants to come, or could afford the voyage. So hyperbole is useless in this discussion.

I understand about putting up some sort of limitation on immigration. I don't have a problem with certain restrictions. But the restrictions we have now--they are TOO much and TOO many.

If I had my druthers, I would make the restrictions the stuff you were talking about. We want to attract hard-working, self-sufficient persons who are willing to understand US history and civics, and speak English.

So here is my immigration policy in a nutshell.

1. Pass a rudimentary test of US history and civics in English.
2. Sign a contract and swear an oath to honor and uphold the Constitution of the USA.
3. Sign a waiver that you won't be eligible for public assistance like food stamps, section 8, AFDC, etc.
4. Get a medical exam showing you are free of a list of diseases.
5. Produce a clean police background check.

Welcome to the USA. You are now a legal resident. We can put up some hoops to jump through for citizenship. But that's it.

Believe it or not, this will weed out a LOT of the undesirable illegals.

Quote:
... but you never invited me,
This country was built on the backbones, sweat, and blood of people who weren't invited. Did the Powhatan people invite the English to Jamestown?

The double standard and hypocrisy is untenable. Either we accept that the country was built by univited guests, that most of us are descendants of uninvited guests, and the policy of welcoming uninvited guests must be honored--or we descendants of uninvited guests all go back where our ancestors came from and give the country back to those who are sequestered in reservations now.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
that doesn't mean we should just resign ourselves to mindless anarchy, does it?
Yes, according to you. When it comes to money, and the freedom to be greedy. Then "fair" just doesn't come into the picture.

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



To paraphrase Dennis Miller...

I don't have anything against immigrants, but for god's sake, sign the guest book on the way in, and stop trying to sneak in through the bathroom window. Is that too much to ask?





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
that doesn't mean we should just resign ourselves to mindless anarchy, does it?
Yes, according to you. When it comes to money, and the freedom to be greedy. Then "fair" just doesn't come into the picture.


How is that "according to " me ? Where the hell are you even getting that ? You comment is senseless.

Oh, I get it now. Your idea of fair isn't that everyone must play by the same set of rules, but that everyone be guaranteed an equal amount of 'stuff', regardless of how hard or smart one works, right ?

Got it.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:09 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

To paraphrase Dennis Miller...

I don't have anything against immigrants, but for god's sake, sign the guest book on the way in, and stop trying to sneak in through the bathroom window. Is that too much to ask?
Good ole Dennis.

That would make sense if there weren't armed guards in front of the guestbook telling 98% of the people in line that they aren't allowed to sign it.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 1:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
BY A. BARTON HINKLE, Media General News Service

As for the signs calling for the "death of capitalism" and telling Wall Street bankers to "Jump, you [expletives]" and declaring "capitalism can't be fixed — we need revolution"? Unrepresentative, surely. Ditto the 5:30 Oakland seminar on Marxism 101, and the dude in the Lenin T-shirt, and. . .



I know you'd like us all to forget it, but the "Jump, You Fuckers" sign was from the first tea party protests on Wall Street some three years ago.

Look, here it is in a blog from September 2008.

Rappy, are you and your source trying to convince us that y'all were OWSers before they were called OWSers?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
BY A. BARTON HINKLE, Media General News Service

As for the signs calling for the "death of capitalism" and telling Wall Street bankers to "Jump, you [expletives]" and declaring "capitalism can't be fixed — we need revolution"? Unrepresentative, surely. Ditto the 5:30 Oakland seminar on Marxism 101, and the dude in the Lenin T-shirt, and. . .



I know you'd like us all to forget it, but the "Jump, You Fuckers" sign was from the first tea party protests on Wall Street some three years ago.

Look, here it is in a blog from September 2008.

Rappy, are you and your source trying to convince us that y'all were OWSers before they were called OWSers?


Look where? You've offered no link, no evidence.

Some of you have a real problem separating those who WRITE the stories, and those who POST them. I'm not A. Barton Hinkle . If you have an issue with the substance of HIS piece, jump on him. Not me. The undeniable fact of the matter is, the OWS gang are mostly made up of hard core communists, anarchist and anti-capitalists, so the ' Jump fuckers ' sentiment is far and away more prevalent there than at any TEA party event. Even if there was ONE such sign there. Which you've yet to prove.


CTS - If only there WERE such armed guards at the front gate ! Then we'd have far less of a problem !



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 6:06 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
CTS - If only there WERE such armed guards at the front gate ! Then we'd have far less of a problem !
They are called border crossings, Rap.

What you mean is we'd have less of a problem if we had armed guards at the front gates AND the bathroom window.

I disagree. I think we should leave the front gate open with a few restrictions, and allow 98% of the people in line to come in after signing the guestbook. Then we wouldn't have to worry about the bathroom window, cause very few people would need it. Then we can live the Dennis Miller dream.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURAPTOR:
BY A. BARTON HINKLE, Media General News Service

As for the signs calling for the "death of capitalism" and telling Wall Street bankers to "Jump, you [expletives]" and declaring "capitalism can't be fixed — we need revolution"? Unrepresentative, surely. Ditto the 5:30 Oakland seminar on Marxism 101, and the dude in the Lenin T-shirt, and. . .



I know you'd like us all to forget it, but the "Jump, You Fuckers" sign was from the first tea party protests on Wall Street some three years ago.

Look, here it is in a blog from September 2008.

Rappy, are you and your source trying to convince us that y'all were OWSers before they were called OWSers?


Look where? You've offered no link, no evidence.


Dang, forgot the link. :(

Here ya go. You may remember the picture.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2008/09/29/jump-you-fuckers/

Quote:

Some of you have a real problem separating those who WRITE the stories, and those who POST them. I'm not A. Barton Hinkle . If you have an issue with the substance of HIS piece, jump on him. Not me.


So are you hereby pledging to NEVER again attack someone for the stories they post?

Quote:

The undeniable fact of the matter is, the OWS gang are mostly made up of hard core communists, anarchist and anti-capitalists...


"Undeniable"? Really? Yet you offer no proof, no evidence, no link. Are we supposed to just take your word for it, or have you "confirmed" this, like Herman Cain's lackey "confirmed" his story?


Quote:
...so the ' Jump fuckers ' sentiment is far and away more prevalent there than at any TEA party event. Even if there was ONE such sign there. Which you've yet to prove.


Except that the "Jump fuckers" sign WAS at the 2008 protests by the tea-baggers. And not one of them has been seen at the OWS movement. Prove me wrong. Where's the link? ;)

Quote:

CTS - If only there WERE such armed guards at the front gate ! Then we'd have far less of a problem !


We do have less of a problem. Another fact that you can't wrap your head around, but Obama has deported far more illegals per year than Bush. And hundreds of thousands of them are leaving this country as fast as they can on their own, too. There isn't any "invasion"; more like a mass exodus.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 8:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Here's the thing I don't get about little Rappy - is it that he can't read, that he can't think, or is crazy out of touch with reality?

This is a quote from the article HE posted in support of his claim: "Tea Party co-founder Julianne Thompson ... special permission to OWS protesters ..."

OK - "Tea Part co-founder" ... now, that looks to me like an organization, with a leadership, a hierarchy, funding, planning, PR, etc etc etc, but most of all, a set of legally responsible people for the group. OWS OTOH is described in the exact same article this way: "special permission to OWS protesters" ... unnamed, anonymous, generic, whoever shows up ... and most important no leadership, no formal organization, no one to ask for a permit for the group, and no one to file for the group, b/c no one is in charge.

And yet, little Rappy claims to think OWS is not just a bunch of people who happen to be there for the same reason.

Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe you have to have been there in the 70's where people really did come together spontaneously due to a common reason in order to 'get' that such things happen. Or maybe if you're an authoritarian like little Rappy you really CAN'T imagine people coming together on their own behalf without daddy telling them to. Or maybe he's so used to astro-turf he really can't imagine grass-roots. Or maybe he's completely desperate to believe that he's right and everyone else is wrong.

But the OWS paradigm seems so simple, I don't get how it is that he can't get it, though it's obvious he doesn't.





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Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


There's nothing which connects that sign w/ the TEA party activist.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yeah, CTS, we need more guns, more walls, etc... on the border. No question about it.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 3:49 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, CTS, we need more guns, more walls, etc... on the border. No question about it.
Yeah, I know you think that. I know the Tea Party thinks that. I know Michele Bachmann thinks that.

To redirect, all I's sayin' was that this position is xenophobic and hypocritical.

Michele Bachmann responds to this by saying something to the effect of: "I'm not xenophobic. I don't have anything against immigrants, as long as they are Christians from western Europe and come here to become assimilated."

Which simply shows she doesn't know what "xenophobic" means.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 4:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, CTS, we need more guns, more walls, etc... on the border. No question about it.
Yeah, I know you think that. I know the Tea Party thinks that. I know Michele Bachmann thinks that.

To redirect, all I's sayin' was that this position is xenophobic and hypocritical.


Actually, it's neither.

Quote:

Michele Bachmann responds to this by saying something to the effect of: "I'm not xenophobic. I don't have anything against immigrants, as long as they are Christians from western Europe and come here to become assimilated."

Which simply shows she doesn't know what "xenophobic" means.


Of course, she's never remotely said anything like they need to come from western Europe, has she ? Acclimated should be seen as a given, and as for being Christian, I'm sure she'd RATHER everyone follow her god, but so what ? How's that different from anyone else? She's never going to make that as any sort of qualification though, which is what you're trying to imply.

There's a very real problem with having 15+ million illegals here, and it's absurd to pretend there isn't.




"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:06 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Of course, she's never remotely said anything like they need to come from western Europe, has she ?
You didn't read anything I wrote and quoted right after the cartoon, did you?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 5:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Yeah, I did. Though I don't agree w/ your assessment that because she wants to solve the problem of stemming the huge influx of illegals coming across the southern border as being xenophobic. If that's where the problem is ( too many illegals, not having a damn thing to do w/ the color of their skin, or what language they speak ) then that's where you put your resources. It'd be absurd ( but typical Left wing / D.C. thinking ) that, if you have a leak in your boat, you must plug the leak, and then plug everything that ISN'T leaking, just to make it 'fair'.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:13 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing which connects that sign w/ the TEA party activist.



There's nothing which connects it to the OWSers, either, despite your feeble attempts.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's nothing which connects that sign w/ the TEA party activist.



There's nothing which connects it to the OWSers, either, despite your feeble attempts.


Only the basic message the OWS gang has been promoting, and the large array of signs they carry, which essentially say the exact same thing.


You made the claim that this was a sign from a TEA Party rally. Where's the proof ? And saying, " Well, prove it's from an OWS rally " , doesn't make your claim. The burden of proof is for you to back up YOUR claim, not for others to disprove claims they never made in the first place.





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yeah, CTS, we need more guns, more walls, etc... on the border. No question about it.
Yeah, I know you think that. I know the Tea Party thinks that. I know Michele Bachmann thinks that.

To redirect, all I's sayin' was that this position is xenophobic and hypocritical.


Actually, it's neither.

Quote:

Michele Bachmann responds to this by saying something to the effect of: "I'm not xenophobic. I don't have anything against immigrants, as long as they are Christians from western Europe and come here to become assimilated."

Which simply shows she doesn't know what "xenophobic" means.


Of course, she's never remotely said anything like they need to come from western Europe, has she ? Acclimated should be seen as a given, and as for being Christian, I'm sure she'd RATHER everyone follow her god, but so what ? How's that different from anyone else? She's never going to make that as any sort of qualification though, which is what you're trying to imply.

There's a very real problem with having 15+ million illegals here, and it's absurd to pretend there isn't.




It's absurd to pretend there are 15+ million illegals here, too, but don't let facts stand in the way of your little tantrum.

Fact is, the number of illegals in this country has been FALLING since at least 2007. Fewer are coming here than are leaving and being deported, for a net reduction in number of illegals here. You should thank President Obama for that, since he seems to be doing a far better job of it than Bush did.

As you put it, you're tilting at windmills here, whining about a made-up issue in an attempt to stoke fear. SOP for the right, in other words.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



There are less illegals coming here because the economy is so bad. Not because of anything Bush or Obama have done, to solve the problem.

And it is a very real problem, not a " tantrum " as you try to dismiss anything when you can't intellectually defend it.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

There are less illegals coming here because the economy is so bad. Not because of anything Bush or Obama have done, to solve the problem.


Nice of you to finally admit that the economy being bad doesn't have anything to do with anything Obama has done.That's quite a big step for you! ;)

Quote:

And it is a very real problem, not a " tantrum " as you try to dismiss anything when you can't intellectually defend it.


Actually, it's not anything like the problem you pretend it is. You claim 15+ million, when the real number is nowhere near that. Might as well claim there are 12,000 trillion illegals here, like PN does; you have as much credibility as he does. Or as little, as the case may be.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 7:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And your intentional distortion further makes the point. You pretending that I said anything about Obama not being responsible for the economy is comical. It's clear I was talking about the illegal immigration problem. Obama has absolutely prolonged the poor economy with his policies, but that's not the issue here.

Exact figures aside, the illegal population is far and away higher than it needs to be, and constitutes a very legitimate problem for this country. Those who don't see it are blind.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:29 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
... if you have a leak in your boat, you must plug the leak, and then plug everything that ISN'T leaking, just to make it 'fair'.
The southern border point was only ONE point out of many. Which apparently you skipped because they weren't in all caps. It is the totals pattern of her comments, like saying how immigration was ok when policy allowed mostly western Europeans to come, but was ruined when the liberals changed the policy to allow Asians and Latin Americans to come too.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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