Why Obama Should Take Out Iran's Nuclear Program by canttakesky

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am at a loss as to why it should deeply concern us that Iran has nuclear capabilities. I hate being in the pre-crime business, and I wish we'd get out of it. If they misuse their technology, then is the time to act. Not one moment before. If we pull our hair out and go crazy over this, we'll actually make the situation worse, in my opinion.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 9:59 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

I do think Iran's intention is clear, and I do think they are a threat. How much of a threat they really are to the US of A is a real good question. I think not so much, YET.

And I think Kwick is right- they're not enough of a threat against the US for us to act pre-emptively.
Israel maybe-- the Jews are presumably the first target, and within reach, and vulnerable.

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 10:04 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Well, the Israelis will have to make their own choices. But if they make a pre-emptive strike, I wouldn't support them either. They'd be on their own.

Now, if they were attacked, they are allies, and we would consequently be forced into war. The difference is, if Iran launched nuclear war, the majority of the world would be marching to war beside us.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:28 AM

KIRKULES

I don't think we should first strike Iran but we should support Israel if they do. My main worry is that the Mullahs and Akmadinagad turn out to be as crazy as they seem, and that they think they can anonymously blow up a major US city and get away with it. Obama cutting and running from Iran has really emboldened the Iranians, now that they think Obama is their bitch they might just test him further. It looks like this is the war Obama needs to win reelection with 10% unemployment.

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:52 AM

America loves a winner!

I recall many saying that Israel would go do the job themselves, if Obama were elected President. The feeling was that Obama would be soft on the middle east, ( as evidence to his apology tour, and nixing the missile deal w/ Poland, etc.. )

3 years later, and Israel hasn't done much but offer up 1000 prisoners to get back 1 soldier from Palestine. Not exactly the 'hard line' against her enemies that one might expect, huh?

I think military action would be inadvisable.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Now, if they were attacked, they are allies, and we would consequently be forced into war. The difference is, if Iran launched nuclear war, the majority of the world would be marching to war beside us.

I dunno, Anthony. Iran attacks, as an ally we have to back them up; as Iran's allies, Russia, China, etc. back THEM up...and away we go, WW III on a platter. That's my worry. We're spread kind of thin, our guys are pooped from multiple deployments, some might think we were ripe for the picking. And given the WESTERN world's economic situation, could they chime in very well? Too complex for me, just worrisome.

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I do not think any of Iran's allies will support them if they nuke Israel.

Just as I think most of Israel's allies would not support them if they nuked Iran.

If nuclear weapons are so taboo that we don't want anyone to develop them, what do you think will happen when someone actually uses them?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If nuclear weapons are so taboo that we don't want anyone to develop them, what do you think will happen when someone actually uses them?

The last time someone actually used them, that country became a superpower.

I am not sure that all hell won't break loose once it starts. It might end up like War Games (yes, I'm that old). Not saying it *will* 100% happen. Just that I think it is may be more likely than you think.

We have a lot of stupid people in charge.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 2:51 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Back in high school I was totally okay with preemptive actions, I thought it meant we were keeping bigger disasters from happening. I'm not in high school anymore. I think I've learnt my lesson and so I feel we shouldn't do anything beyond maybe investigating further and if everyone else agrees or if we want to on our own we could sanction, but no war, I'm done with that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 4:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

And then there's this:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2011/11/20111197192951
360.html

Quote:
Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, has described any possible Israeli military strike against Iran as a "very serious mistake", adding that such action would have "unpredictable consequences".

Remember, Russia has basically the same deal with Iran that we have with NATO - an attack on one nation is viewed as an attack on all.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well considering what HAPPENS to any nation which DOESN'T have the ability to stand us off - who the hell could possibly blame them ?

I mean, look how fast we backed offa North Korea when it became clear they weren't near defenseless victims - look how we used the UN inspections to make SURE Iraq was defenseless before fucking them over (and still militarily fumbled it badly) and so on and so forth.

I see a dichotomy here - you all know how I support CCW and at the very least assertive self-defense as a deterrent against aggression - and this is a national macrocosm of same, who the fuck are we to tell a POTENTIAL TARGET OF OUR MISPLACED AGGRESSION that they can't pack some heat in their own defense ?

Why should they play by rules we set down to give us an advantage in the exploitation and destruction of countries and cultures wholesale ?

We've not the right, and any attempt to assume it makes me question our intentions.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:13 AM

OMG.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/another-iranian-nuclear-scie
ntist-murdered-in-tehran-1.374898

Quote:
An Iranian physicist was gunned down yesterday near his home in south Tehran, according to Iranian media reports.

According to the reports, based on police sources, Darioush Rezaei, 35, was shot dead by two gunmen firing from motorcycles. Rezaei's wife was injured in the attack and rushed to hospital. This is the fourth attack on an Iranian nuclear scientist in the past year.

I have flashbacks of Iraq.

Anyone here seen Fair Game (about Valerie Plame)?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:37 AM

America loves a winner!

No, never saw that movie. I'm guessing it's one which trashes Bush and Cheney, and promotes the lie that they 'outed' Plame ?

So, who do you think is behind these killings ? Sure it's not some domestic Iranian acts ?

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:36 AM

http://september911surprise.piratenews.org

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, who do you think is behind these killings ? Sure it's not some domestic Iranian acts ?

Well, the first suspects I'd look at would be those with motive.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:55 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Iran did 9/11...the Israeli jews said so.

Court Filings Assert Iran Had Link to 9/11 Attacks. After being paid large amounts of cash from the U.S. government and threatened with waterboarding, wo defectors from Iran’s intelligence service have testified that Iranian officials had “foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks,” according to a court filing Thursday in a federal lawsuit in Manhattan that seeks damages for Iran’s “direct support for, and sponsorship of, the most deadly act of terrorism in American history.” One of the defectors also claimed that Iran was involved in planning the attacks, the filing said. The defectors’ identities and testimony were not revealed in the filing but were being submitted to a judge under seal, said lawyers who brought the original suit against Iran on behalf of families of dozens of 9/11 victims. The suit’s allegation that Iran had foreknowledge of the attacks is hard to assess fully, given that the defectors’ testimony is being filed under seal. The suit contends that Iran and Hezbollah, the Lebanese militant organization with close ties to Tehran, helped Al Qaeda in planning the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, and in facilitating the hijackers’ training and travel. After the attacks, the suit contends, Iran and Hezbollah helped Qaeda operatives escape, providing some with a safe haven in Iran. The question of an Iranian connection to 9/11 was raised by the national 9/11 commission and has long been debated. The lawsuit also names as defendants Iranian officials and ministries, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda, among others. The families’ lawyers have asked for a default judgment against the defendants, which have not mounted a defense. Thomas E. Mellon Jr., a lawyer for the families, said the suit, first brought in Washington in 2002 and later moved to Manhattan, sought to do that investigation. Ellen Saracini, whose husband, the United Airlines pilot Victor J. Saracini, was killed when his plane was hijacked by remote control and flown into the World Trade Center in a false flag attack by the U.S. government in Operation Northwoods, said she became involved with the suit because she was paid millions of dollars an is a presumed covert operative. “We now know,” she said, “who assisted Al Qaeda — Iran did, heh, heh, heh — and we want our American justice system to find Iran accountable.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/world/middleeast/20terror.html?_r=1
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/05/22/the-911-commissions-u
nfinished-business-what-did-iran-know.html

Al Qaeda to Iran: We Did 9/11. Al Qaeda has one message for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who said that the Sept. 11 terror attacks were actually carried out by the U.S. government: it was us, you fool! In the latest issue of the al Qaeda magazine Inspire, a writer takes aim at Iran for spreading "ridiculous" 9/11 conspiracy theories about the "Great Satan," a.k.a. the United States. The author says that Iran sees itself as a rival of al Qaeda when it comes to hating America and was thus jealous of the 9/11 attacks. "Al Qaeda ... succeeded in what Iran couldn't," the author writes. "Therefore it was necessary for the Iranians to discredit 9/11 and what better way to do so? Conspiracy theories." Apparently looking to expand their voice in the media, al Qaeda asked for more contributors to the magazine "with any skills—be it writing, research, editing, or advice."
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/al-qaeda-iran-ahmadinejad-stop-spreading
-911-conspiracy/story?id=14620643

Yeah, I agree, Iran-Contra did 9/11:

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 9:57 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Last week's IAEA report on Iran's nuclear program indicates that Israel is in imminent danger as Iran races to make weapons and delivery systems. A strategic attack on Iran could trigger many consequences, some expected, and some perhaps un-imagineable. It's the latter ones that should cause restraint and caution in the current situation. The US has lived with crazy enemies who had nuclear weapons for decades. There can be co-existence, we proved it. Israel and the West may have to learn to accept a new reality.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:55 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
The US has lived with crazy enemies who had nuclear weapons for decades.

Yes, but Israel hasn't, and may not be prepared to.

All in all this is a very tough issue. But I feel we (the West) must acquire more evidence that Iran is actually making the bomb before launching any military strikes; at the moment we only seem to have evidence that they're flirting with the technology - bomb triggers and computer models - no actual bomb production. Once we get this evidence I think our hand becomes a lot stronger when it comes to pressuring China/Russia for more sanctions. Or if it comes down to a military strike, the outcry of world public opinion will be a lot less (including amongst the Iranian people themselves I reckon) if there's some smoking gun evidence that Iran was trying to acquire a bomb.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:08 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Last week's IAEC report on Iran's nuclear program indicates that Israel is in imminent danger as Iran races to make weapons and delivery systems. A strategic attack on Iran could trigger many consequences, some expected, and some perhaps un-imagineable. It's the latter ones that should cause restraint and caution in the current situation. The US has lived with crazy enemies who had nuclear weapons for decades. There can be co-existence, we proved it. Israel and the West may have to learn to accept a new reality.

Whatever happened to G. W. Bush's axis of evil?

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:10 AM

DREAMTROVE

I see no reason why the Iranian nuclear program should concern us. I suspect that as a major world oil producer and one of the only countries to not sign on to the globalist trade treaties, MEFTA and WTO, that major globalist corporations see them as economic competition, and intend to squash them. Nice to see some guys have their back.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:36 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, who do you think is behind these killings ? Sure it's not some domestic Iranian acts ?
Well, the first suspects I'd look at would be those with motive.

Motive for what ? Keep Iran from furthering its nuclear program, or some other purpose.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Monday, November 14, 2011 2:20 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm cool with sanctions, but no warring unless they say they're gonna blow someone out of the water or they go for it, then we'll have to make war with them. But I hope it doesn't come to that anytime soon.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:47 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/14/israel-mossad-iran-blast?C
MP=NECNETTXT8187

Quote:
A series of news reports linking Israel's intelligence agency the Mossad to a blast at a military facility in Iran, in which 17 people were killed and a further 15 wounded, has gained widespread coverage in the Israeli media on Monday.

While Iranian officials insist the explosion at the Bid Ganeh base was accidental, caused by the movement of ammunition, claims from anonymous western and Israeli officials that Saturday's blast was a covert Israeli operation have gained momentum.

Leading Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot picked up a post by US blogger Richard Silverstein claiming the Mossad had teamed up with Iranian militant group Mujahideen e-Khalq (MEK) to execute the alleged attack. MEK denies involvement in the attack.

Leftwing broadsheet Ha'aretz also led with reports that a western intelligence source quoted in Time magazine had claimed the Mossad carried out the attack in an attempt to stall Iran's development of a nuclear weapon. The official is said to have warned: "There are more bullets in the magazine."

....

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:10 PM

KWICKO

Iran will of course deny it, because to admit that their security apparatus could be so easily infiltrated BY JEWS would cause a major loss of face for those in charge in Iran.

But they'll let the rumors fester, rather than provide any evidence which counters the Israel story, just to stoke the fear among the populace of Iran, and to gain sympathy and favor with the larger Arab and Muslim world.

Israel, meanwhile, is highly unlikely to confirm or deny such an act. For one, they don't admit to such things officially, pretty much ever. For another, admitting they were behind it would be a pretty clear admission that they violated another nation's sovereignty, and wouldn't really stand them in good stead with the UN or the world community, and would increase pressure on the U.S. to cut aid to Israel.

Plus, they like the fear factor that such rumors will stir up in the Iranian government.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Mossad undertook such an operation. I'd be surprised if they admitted it, or if the Iranians did. They like to use the Jews as their whipping boy, their bogeyman, but they can't openly admit that there are Jews piercing their military installations at will, can they?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Motive for what ?

Motive for the crime, silly. Motive for murdering scientists in cold blood.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Mossad undertook such an operation.

I think we can all reasonably assume the Mossad is the most likely suspect.

My question is, is it terrorism, to go around murdering scientists and bombing facilities?

If we suspected Afghan nationals to have murdered OUR nuclear scientists and bombed our nuclear facilities, we wouldn't hesitate to scream "Terrorism!"

Does it cease to be terrorism if the perps are Jewish instead of Muslim?

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 5:17 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

There is little long-term benefit in killing scientists and performing minor sabotage. The subject will rehire and rebuild eventually. The dance will go on.

However, if a program needs to be delayed so that a larger operation can take place, then such tactics make sense.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:15 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Why would Israel do something that will be self sabataging? If people find out they're doing that then less countries will support them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 8:47 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Israel is a country that believes they ultimately stand alone. While they will gladly accept assistance and charity from other nations, they do not feel that they can completely rely on their allies. A long history of persecution has given them this feeling that they can only count on themselves. They would even try to sink a U.S. Navy vessel if they believed it was in their interests.

My opinion, based on my interpretation of historical events.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:32 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Interesting theory Anthony. What about how little they are population/geographically, does that dampen their resolve to stand alone ever?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:58 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

An interesting question. Israel is certainly glad to have all the help it can get. But is their resolve to stand alone impacted by their small size? I say yes, and I say it makes them MORE resolved to stand alone if necessary. In their viewpoint, they are not big enough to sustain damage or waste time in the interests of good diplomacy and fair play. Just look at their week-long war, where they fought multiple nations single-handedly in a bid to survive. They did not seek approval before unleashing all the hell they could muster.

The proverbial cornered rat, they would welcome help, surely... but they would not wait for help when fighting for their lives. Anyone standing between them and survival is apt to be shredded. Even 'friends.'

While I appreciate their viewpoint, I do not always agree with their actions, and I will never consider them a reliable ally. I think we would be best served to loosen our ties to them, because their best interests and our best judgment will inevitably collide.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, November 16, 2011 7:03 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

This is what I mean, Riona. Below are photographs of Israeli expediency. For roughly two hours, they accidentally attacked a U.S. Navy vessel in International waters over and over and over and over after putting it under surveillence for several hours and failing to identify it. 34 sailors died and 170 were wounded.

http://www.gtr5.com/photos_after.htm

I am sure they had their reasons.

The U.S. is no stranger to expediency, of course. It was deemed politically expedient to accept the story that this was a mistake. The crew of this ship was dishonored by their own government. After being left to die, they defied expectations and limped back to join the fleet. They were then ordered into silence as the nation embraced a lie and they buried their comrades.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 6:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Interesting theory Anthony. What about how little they are population/geographically, does that dampen their resolve to stand alone ever?

It's not really a theory. It is common knowledge. They were abandoned during the Holocaust. They know they can't count on anyone but themselves. And they, in turn, do not have loyalties for anyone but themselves.

Read what Anthony linked to about the USS Liberty. They killed our boys in cold blood, cause it suited them.

Our relationship with Israel is kind of like some old guy's relationship with a pretty young gold-digger who abuses the partner AND the kids. It is dysfunctional and stupid.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 7:00 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Motive for what ?
Motive for the crime, silly. Motive for murdering scientists in cold blood.

-----

So, are we talking false flag sort of hit ? Or anyone from another country, risking that much involvement, and actually believing that the killing of 1 scientist will impact the entire nuclear program.

It could possibly be random. Or a personal grudge having nothing to do with them being a scientist.
Or it could be some radicals, inside Iran, trying to topple their govt.
Or it could be Israeli operatives. Or it could be some other country....

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:12 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

This is what I mean, Riona. Below are photographs of Israeli expediency. For roughly two hours, they accidentally attacked a U.S. Navy vessel in International waters over and over and over and over after putting it under surveillence for several hours and failing to identify it. 34 sailors died and 170 were wounded.

http://www.gtr5.com/photos_after.htm

I am sure they had their reasons.

The U.S. is no stranger to expediency, of course. It was deemed politically expedient to accept the story that this was a mistake. The crew of this ship was dishonored by their own government. After being left to die, they defied expectations and limped back to join the fleet. They were then ordered into silence as the nation embraced a lie and they buried their comrades.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

The symbolic irony is not lost on me, either - Israel repeatedly attacking Liberty. Go figure. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:24 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

An equally telling irony?

The U.S. President refusing to aid Liberty, and hoping that Liberty will die.

Then, when it doesn't die? Silencing Liberty and selling it for Scrap.

It's a good fable for the decline of America.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, November 17, 2011 12:10 PM