REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Millionaires tell Congress "Raise our taxes!"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, November 20, 2011 19:59
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Friday, November 18, 2011 7:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

A group of millionaires arrived in Washington on Wednesday to lobby Capitol Hill into mandating higher taxes for the upper class.

The group of about two dozen, titled Patriotic Millionaires for Fiscal Strength (PMFS), is urging that Congress make the wealthy one percent of the country pay their “fair share” in taxes.

They would like to see a tax hike on those who currently or have in the past earned an annual income of $1,000,000 or more per year.

“Our country has been good to us. It provided a foundation through which we could succeed. Now, we want to do our part to keep that foundation strong so that others can succeed as we have. Please do the right thing for our country. Raise our taxes,” writes the group in an open letter to President Obama, House Speaker John Boehner, and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.

Producer and entrepreneur Charlie Fink, a member of the PMFS, testified before a congressional committee as well as visited members of the supercommittee, a group that is responsible for coming up with a plan to fix the country’s debt problem.

Fink lobbied to let the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire, adding, “without revenue we will never solve the problem by giving tax cuts to wealthy while supporting two foreign wars,” reports ABC News.

According to The Associated Press, the meeting was generally embraced by liberals on the hill and “tolerated” by conservatives.

"If you think the federal government can spend your money better than you can, then by all means pay more in taxes than you owe,” said Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform, to AP.

Americans for Tax reform has advocated for Republicans to pledge to vote against tax hikes. Norquist suggested that the IRS have a line on the tax form where a person could write in how much they want to donate to the government.

“Just like a tip line on a restaurant receipt,” he quipped.

Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) has also echoed this argument, calling on the millionaires to voluntarily donate to the government if they really want to pay more.

In response, the millionaire group published a statement on their website denying that individual donations would help reduce the deficit:

"A few of us voluntarily writing a check to the IRS will not fix the problem” that was created by “fiscal irresponsibility.”

“It will take the work of all patriotic Americans to create a strong foundation for our continued prosperity. We are willing to do our part by paying higher taxes. It is clear Senator Hatch and many of his colleagues are not willing to do theirs.”

The group went on to say that if Hatch wanted to make a personal contribution to the IRS to help his country, then the Patriotic Millionaires would match his contribution.

“Stop digging. For God’s sake, stop digging!” Fink told The Christian Post in response to a question of how Congress can help reduce the deficit.

“Cutting taxes in a time of war is unpatriotic. We are digging ourselves into a deeper hole in this country. We’ve run up a huge deficit.”

“To whom much is given, much is expected,” Fink continued.

“We are the one percent in this country. A little unselfishness (on the part of the millionaires) now will go a long way in preserving our own wealth and the wealth of this nation.” He added that it will be less painful to pay now than wait years from now and suffer the consequences.

The group was formed a year ago to push for expiration of the Bush tax cuts. The Bush cuts allowed for a tax cut for the top one percent of the wealthiest in the nation. Proponents of the cuts argue that by lowering the taxes the pace of economic recovery and job creation would increase. The cuts were planned to expire at the end of 2010, but Obama extended the cuts for another two years.

The millionaires do not work directly with the Occupy Wall Street Movement, which is also calling on the wealthy to take on more responsibility. But Fink said that he personally is “sympathetic to them” and thinks that the two groups are “motivated by much of the same unfairness.”

“I am hugely offended that high taxes kill jobs. There’s no evidence of that. It’s a lie that has gone unchallenged by media. We had high economic growth in the 1990s and high taxes. We also had high taxes after World War II and the deficit was paid off. I don’t want to pay 60-90 percent in taxes but if we don’t stop digging, we all will pay,” Fink said. http://www.christianpost.com/news/millionaires-to-congress-tax-us-more
-62219/

Good on THEM! Nice to see, but I realize it will have no effect. It boggles the mind that, although it's been clearly shown that the deficit can't be TOUCHED by cutting only, that lowering taxes DOESN'T create jobs, that the vast majority of Americans WANT taxes raised on the rich, someone like Norquist has so much money and power that he can force our REPRESENTATIVES to refuse to do it. So much for representative government and democracy. We have lost our way as a nation.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 12:48 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Can't they simply just write a bigger check come tax time? You can make donations to the IRS, you know. AND donations to the IRS are tax-deductible to boot. Imagine that!

http://www.limonwhitaker.com/2010/08/tax-relief-donate-to-the-irs/

Oh wait. This wasn't about millionaires wanting to pay more taxes themselves, which is easy enough to do. This was about millionaires wanting the govt to force OTHER millionaires/billionaires to pay more taxes.

Yeah, I'm not so much in favor of that.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 1:52 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Can't they simply just write a bigger check come tax time? You can make donations to the IRS, you know. AND donations to the IRS are tax-deductible to boot. Imagine that!

http://www.limonwhitaker.com/2010/08/tax-relief-donate-to-the-irs/

Oh wait. This wasn't about millionaires wanting to pay more taxes themselves, which is easy enough to do. This was about millionaires wanting the govt to force OTHER millionaires/billionaires to pay more taxes.

Yeah, I'm not so much in favor of that.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)




Hello,

That is a fair counterpoint.

I often think about this when the issue of Universal Health Care is brought up.

Ron Paul believes that, in the absence of government involvement, charities would rise up to fill the gaps in health care. (And disaster relief, etc.)

However, I feel strongly that this is not the case. Charities do an admirable job, but they clearly are unable to get the job done alone. I don't think that there will ever be voluntary charity systems capable of dealing with the issue of health care gaps and disaster recovery. They are at best supplemental efforts that help some of the people some of the time.

I think Ron Paul honestly believes that charity will get the job done. I think he believes this partially because admitting the alternative, "We're prepared to just let some folks suffer and die," is an unthinkable position, and certainly one impossible to say aloud without committing political suicide.

But the alternative is to force people to pay under threat of violence. When I say that such notions disturb me, I get looked at sideways.

However altruistic the minority of wealthy people are, the truth is that the proposed solution involves forcing actions upon people who would not choose them for themselves. While I have come to believe that such force is necessary to the functioning of society, the idea of it leaves a bitter flavor in my mouth and makes me feel dirty. If watching people suffer and die wasn't such an unpalatable counterpoint, I'd never be able to bring myself to support such policies.

Even so, when I find eager, enthusiastic support for 'sticking it to the rich' I am filled with disgust. Laws and Taxes are a solemn necessity, not a gleeful revenge. The attitude I see from many is one of resentment and eager retribution. That may be a good motivator to get you into a political demonstration. However, that is not a good emotional place from which to propose policy.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 2:26 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Can't they simply just write a bigger check come tax time? You can make donations to the IRS, you know. AND donations to the IRS are tax-deductible to boot. Imagine that!



They could, but then again you can't plan government spending on donations can you.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, November 18, 2011 3:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"They could, but then again you can't plan government spending on donations can you."

Hello,

You can, but not for the immediate year. It would be possible to have an entirely voluntary tax system. IF you aren't buried in staggering debt that has to be dealt with right now. You simply hold the donations in an account for next year's expenses. And continue to do so every year. You will always know a year in advance what the revenue is.

Sadly, we are not in such a situation.

--Anthony




_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, November 18, 2011 5:50 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Ron Paul believes that, in the absence of government involvement, charities would rise up to fill the gaps in health care. (And disaster relief, etc.)

However, I feel strongly that this is not the case.

No, it wouldn't work the way the health system is right now.

But under the right reforms, I agree with Paul.

There is no reason that health care HAS to cost as much as it does in the USA. (It doesn't cost that much in Peru, for example.) There is absolutely no reason that health care costs SHOULD be prohibitive to the AVERAGE consumer. That is just ridiculous beyond belief. Yet we act like this is the way it should be, and we must beg, steal, or rob to keep it this way.

It is disgusting.

If costs were to be brought down to a reasonable level, there would be absolutely no need for health care insurance for the average person--anymore than we need car service insurance. Then it wouldn't be unreasonable for charities to take care of the poor.

So... before resorting to the bitter taste of taxes to prevent people from dying, we should reform our system to not use health care as blackmail.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 5:52 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
They could, but then again you can't plan government spending on donations can you.

Why not? Hundreds of charities plan their spending on donations.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Friday, November 18, 2011 6:19 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Sky,

That seems reasonable. Of course, mandating what people can charge for their goods and services is just another forced intervention from the government.

However, it is a viable alternative to increased taxation.

The process would have to begin at the College or University, where the price of becoming a doctor would need to be mitigated somehow. Then analysis that reveal the profit threshold of various medical arenas could be conducted. A suitable profit cap would have to be set on each type of procedure, etc.

It's still an intrusion, but perhaps a more focused one.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:44 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Of course, mandating what people can charge for their goods and services is just another forced intervention from the government.

No, no, no, no, no.... I'm not talking about using legislation to cap what they can charge. No, no, no. I wouldn't support that.

I am advocating that the govt not REQUIRE the health care industry to charge as much as it does.

The skeleton of health care reform with the purpose of lowering costs would have to address these issues:

1. Exorbitant costs of clinical trials to get FDA approval.

2. Requiring physicians to carry exorbitantly expensive malpractice insurance.

3. Exorbitant costs of huge amounts of bureaucratic paperwork attached to coding, billing, Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance claims.

4. Exorbitant costs of unnecessary health care/testing to cover one's ass. Sub-issues:
a. Tort reform to allow physicians to use individual judgment and deviate from "standard of care" without fear of being sued. Like having to prove criminal negligence or malice.
b. State board and federal persecution of physicians who provide pain relief and alternative health care services.

5. Exorbitant costs of medical education, and its incestuous relationship with Big Pharma.

6. Exorbitant costs of health care insurance, period. The entire system of consumers not paying directly for health and not seeing the true costs they are incurring is hopelessly corrupt. Hospitals charge $100,000 so they can be paid $30,000 by insurance. But the individual patient still has to pay $100,000. Patients are given unnecessary health care so the physician's ass is covered, and no one gives a damn because "insurance" will pay for it.

Many physicians WANT to charge less, but they can't because of all the exorbitant costs listed above.

We need a system overhaul to return to the obvious and simple. Dr. X charges $X for X services/products. Patient pays Dr. X or he goes to Dr. Y. Just like car mechanics. Or plumbers.

Returning to simplicity will allow most health care to be affordable to the average consumer. Like car repair. Or plumbing.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:08 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Putting aside the fact that car repair and plumbing are quite expensive (albeit cheaper than a hospital stay.)

I suppose you could easily drop government restrictions like FDA approval and Insurance (though I note that some doctors I have used specifically do not have such insurance, so it's already a possibility.)

I suppose you could obliterate Medicare, etc, and then you would eliminate the need to file paperwork on it.

I suppose you could make it harder to sue a physician. (I'm not sure this is entirely a good idea, considering how much legitimate malpractice occurs which ruins people's lives and livelihood.)

However, your proposals to cheapen health insurance and to make school less expensive sound like they require government intrusion/directive/law/caps in order to work.

Also, I'm curious as to how you would force the various industries to pass savings on to the consumer rather than pocketing the extra profit once they are freed of these expensive anchors?

--Anthony





_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:34 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Even so, when I find eager, enthusiastic support for 'sticking it to the rich' I am filled with disgust. Laws and Taxes are a solemn necessity, not a gleeful revenge. The attitude I see from many is one of resentment and eager retribution. That may be a good motivator to get you into a political demonstration. However, that is not a good emotional place from which to propose policy.




Think of it like a conservative: The idea isn't to "stick it to" corporations and the rich, it's to shrink them to the size where they can be drowned in a bathtub!

Heck, we're told this is a great idea when it comes to our government...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I have often wondered how the world might be different if businesses were not allowed to have more than 1000 employees, and were not allowed to own other businesses.

I’m not entirely sure what that would look like, but I have often been curious. There would no longer be enough iPhones for everyone. Nor Fords. No small business could ever manufacture enough of something to meet popular demand if something was popular. Rather, you’d have a plethora of manufacturers and providers for each kind of thing. You wouldn’t be able to walk into a Toyota dealership. It would just be a dealership, with 30 different car manufacturers represented. Things would probably tend to be more expensive, but extensive competition might mitigate that to some degree.

Or Perhaps such a scenario would merely hasten the advent of automation, so that 1000 workers really could produce enough of something for everyone to have one.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Putting aside the fact that car repair and plumbing are quite expensive (albeit cheaper than a hospital stay.)

I would expect physicians to be well-paid and never cheap. My goal here is affordable. You can save up for it. You can take out a small personal loan from a friend for it. You don't need insurance.

Quote:

I suppose you could make it harder to sue a physician. (I'm not sure this is entirely a good idea, considering how much legitimate malpractice occurs which ruins people's lives and livelihood.)
I have wrestled with this. I ultimately came down on the side that malpractice lawsuits are worsening the quality of health care rather than improving it. Physicians no longer prescribe treatment based on what is best for the patient, but what would be most defensible in court. Unfortunately, the two are not the same thing.

Quote:

However, your proposals to cheapen health insurance and to make school less expensive sound like they require government intrusion/directive/law/caps in order to work.
Well, you know me. I wouldn't support any solutions that requires MORE govt intervention.

My solution to cheaper medical education is simple, perhaps even simplistic. Allow new and cheaper medical schools to compete against the expensive ones. Once the health care market moves away from Big Pharma control (via govt persecution), smaller and less prestigious medical schools might actually have a chance.

As far as health insurance reform goes, I'm not talking about cheaper premiums. I am talking about how health insurance itself is convoluted and corrupt, and hides its true costs to society in nooks and crannies. If it were up to me, I would love to see the whole health insurance system dismantled.

I think an important first step is to stop requiring physicians to purchase malpractice insurance. That would allow them to charge reasonable fees that average consumers can afford, let's say, $25 - $40 a visit (which is not too far from what a lot of co-pays are anyway). Once that happens, insurance is sidestepped.

On catastrophic costs, I would support tax-deductible medical savings account (MSA) that is NOT required to be tied to an insurance plan (like it is currently). So instead of paying $500 a month on premiums, put it in a savings account. Let it earn tax-free interest. If used on medical care, all amounts withdrawn are tax-free.

I would also support allowing/encouraging patients to barter and set up payment plans. Many homebirthing mothers do that with the $1500-$2500 fee homebirth midwives charge. It would work similarly.

Quote:

Also, I'm curious as to how you would force the various industries to pass savings on to the consumer rather than pocketing the extra profit once they are freed of these expensive anchors?
No force. But without insurance in the mix, providers will quickly realize that their customers cannot afford their services as is. If legally able, *someone* will start the Walmart of health care.

Also, with less Big Pharma control, alternative health providers will gain more business. They usually charge a lot less. This occurs a lot in the 3rd world, where a large percentage of the population use alternative health care. This move in the market might persuade some conventional providers to lower prices as well.

Certainly, without force, reforms will be rocky and slow and precarious. Force is very expedient for a nice transition, I will admit. Still, I have seen nothing good result from force in the long term, so will take my chances with rocky and slow.





-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 6:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

My solution to cheaper medical education is simple, perhaps even simplistic. Allow new and cheaper medical schools to compete against the expensive ones. Once the health care market moves away from Big Pharma control (via govt persecution), smaller and less prestigious medical schools might actually have a chance.




Or pay the tuition for med students who agree to a term of service doing work like Doctors Without Borders, only here at home, in underserved rural and urban areas, where they'll still be paid a living wage while they learn their craft "on the front lines", as it were.

Quote:

On catastrophic costs, I would support tax-deductible medical savings account (MSA) that is NOT required to be tied to an insurance plan (like it is currently). So instead of paying $500 a month on premiums, put it in a savings account. Let it earn tax-free interest. If used on medical care, all amounts withdrawn are tax-free.




Including over-the-counter/holistic/non-conventional treatments? I used to have an HSA, which was better in some ways, worse in others, but one of the things I really liked about it was I could use it at the chiropractor. I've been to doctors, who prescribed POWERFUL painkillers and muscle relaxers, which didn't do anything for my back except make me not give a shit how much it hurt. Then I found a decent chiropractor - an old-fashioned bone-cracker - and he was able to actually TREAT THE PROBLEM, instead of just treating the symptoms.

Now I can't use an HSA for those kinds of treatments, or for over-the-counter medicines, only prescribed medications are covered. :(

I'd love to see those HSAs come back, and even be expanded to wellness programs as well - things like gym memberships, trainers, etc., since all of them are aimed at getting you healthier and less in need of urgent care.

Granted, these are the kinds of things you can still opt to pay for on your own, but it would be handy to have recurring costs like gym memberships be paid out of your PRE-TAX earnings.

Just a thought...


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:53 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Or pay the tuition for med students who agree to a term of service doing work like Doctors Without Borders, only here at home, in underserved rural and urban areas, where they'll still be paid a living wage while they learn their craft "on the front lines", as it were.

LOVE this idea.

Quote:

Including over-the-counter/holistic/non-conventional treatments? ...
Abso-freaking-lutely!

Quote:

Then I found a decent chiropractor - an old-fashioned bone-cracker - and he was able to actually TREAT THE PROBLEM, instead of just treating the symptoms.
That is one thing I have found about many alternative health modalities, that they are at least trying, if not succeeding, in solving the problem instead of covering up symptoms. When it works, we're talking about cutting the immense costs of long term dependency on drugs and consultations.

Quote:

I'd love to see those HSAs come back, and even be expanded to wellness programs as well - things like gym memberships, trainers, etc., since all of them are aimed at getting you healthier and less in need of urgent care.
Love this idea too.

You're on a roll tonight!





-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 3:42 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

That is one thing I have found about many alternative health modalities, that they are at least trying, if not succeeding, in solving the problem instead of covering up symptoms. When it works, we're talking about cutting the immense costs of long term dependency on drugs and consultations.



And that's just it - I know there are a lot of quacks out there, but I was lucky enough to find the chiro I did. I tried a few others, but they kept pushing the hard sell - "We need you to come back every week for a year...", etc. This guy considers a good outcome one in which he doesn't see you again. He tells me, "Come in if you need to, but I hope you don't need to." How many doctors will tell you that? Nowadays, through stretches and exercise that he's recommended, I need to go in about once a year. The last real doctor I saw for my back put me on drugs and told me that fusing my spine was the only way to get me back on my feet.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, a lotta my health-care is what you'd call grey-market anyways...

There's also that most of my most treasured docs are kind of bonkers - I've taken to suggesting latelty that we just take everything from the neck up and attach it to a mech, and I get this response from one...

"Couldn't do it, the techs not there yet, but maybe if we pulled the spine, hmmm..."


-F

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Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:59 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm really enjoying the productive discussion being had about health care. CTS, Anthony and Quicko are all making really good points and I think if we were the senate like in my power thread we could really come up with something that works for everyone here, doctors and the Everyman. Yay!

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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