Student fights to fly Flag by AnthonyT

DALEK!

Holy fuck does this site make me sad some times. First two people who respond to the thread talk about college as indoctrination tools, the tea party and Nazis. All we need now is PN to come post something about the Jews and the circle will be complete.

As for the story, I think the kid should be allowed to fly the flag. It is not outright racist and we have freedom of expression. Plus it's in his dorm room.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 4:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"All we need now is PN to come post something about the Jews and the circle will be complete."

Made me laugh out loud. What an observation!

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Tuesday, November 29, 2011 9:19 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

The student should have the freedom to fly said flag if he so chooses. Other students should be able to hastle him about it if they so choose. This is a situation in which humanity should be able to police itself. It was like the guy with the Confederate flag shirt in the section of town where a lot of African Americans live, its his choice, perhaps some folk will choose to make a choice to beat him up, perhaps they won't, we'll see.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:52 AM

DREAMTROVE

Rap,

I didn't spot that, it never occurred to me to check out the new flag.

ETA: I find myself in complete agreement with your last post as well, well said.

I find that pitting one ground of the people against another only serves to aid those in power. I realize there are, while not very many, a few socialists out there, and the education system does try to indoctrinate people, which is where socialists come from, they don't spring up naturally, but I still have to make a mental break between those who call themselves socialists, but are more for egalitarian anarchy, like the occupiers, and those who are actually part of socialism, like our Washington think tanks.

Funny and sad to watch the dem takeover of occupy, I'm afraid the same thing will happen as I suspect happened to much of the tea party: The dems will join occupy, declare themselves leaders, and everyone else will leave.

ETA: Topically, I think the student has a point. Maybe a couple. Many prominent members of the confederacy were anti-slavery, enough that, should the South have won the war, I suspect that slavery would have ended anyway. Meanwhile, the Union still had slave states in it, enough so that Lincoln was careful to free only confederate slaves after Antietam. The old new england states rights issue was one of the principle ideas behind the flag, and if that's what it means to him, he has the right to make that case, which I think can well be made. Ironically, if he had flown the CSA flag, they would not have told him to take it down.

It also occurs that in protecting some people from being offended we might be infringing on the rights of others. If someone had a Nazi flag, I might say that it bothered me, because of my family past. But what if they had a swastika made of flowers, and then they told me it was a symbol of aryan unity? It is, for many aryans, and there are over a billion aryans in the world, and only 13 million jews. If they were German, I might look at it askance, but what if they were from India?

My general feeling is to fall on the Frem chaos side of all of these, though it bemuses me to see Rap and Frem on the same side, and oh yeah, bickering about it ;)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Couldn't understand much of what he said, he mumbles so, but yes: Freedom of expression. End of story.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nah, not bickering, just winding him up cause sometimes it's fun to poke the monkey - too easy though cause once you know the right trigger words and phrases, working them into any post will send him into little circles easy as pushing a button, dancing to whatever tune I play in counter-accompanyment...

The sad thing is that he seems fundamentally incapable of realizing this, the dangers present in giving over ones decision making process to a command-response formula, thus ensuring anyone who knows how it works can easily manipulate them.

Had I real malicious intent I'd use mutually contradictory "commands" and then sit back and watch his brain all but melt out his ears, rather than yanking his leash to point the damn thing out to him in the seemingly-futile hope that his dumb ass might realize he's being used.

*shrug*

Anyhow, freedom of personal expression doesn't end when it starts offending people - IMHO that's actually when it truly begins.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:30 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Okay, here's something to consider. If I'm German, and if my family fought for the Reich in WWII, and I view it as "part of my heritage" or "a great honor", is it cool with everybody if I fly my Nazi flag? It isn't racist or anything, just something my family is proud of, since it reminds us of our heritage...

(I don't actually have any family members who were Nazis; we were out of the area long before the Nazis existed. The above is just meant to illustrate the controversy in a different light.)

The Confederate States of America was not these United States. It was the enemy of the United States of America. A war was fought. The Confederates lost. You're flying the flag of an enemy nation when you fly the Confederate flag.

To say that the Civil War, secession, and the confederacy weren't about slavery is to completely ignore that all or nearly all of the states which seceded specifically listed slavery in their articles of secession.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:34 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

What? No, it doesn't matter if you fly an 'enemy flag' from some historical conflict.

Why would it?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

The TEA party crowd is about as opposite of 'jack booted fascists ' as one can get, but I know trying to explain that to some here is a utter waste of time.

Like calling Republicans 'nazis',when the nazis were SOCIALISTS. Funny, that.

Actually, they were fascists. Just like you.

Quote:

Which reminds me, would the swastika be so universally detested ( at least, in the West ) if it weren't on the nazi flag ? Maybe Niki remembers, what folks thought of it, before Hitler.

Answer: No, it wouldn't be. It was on several flags prior to WWII, including Norway's, if memory serves. The Nazis ruined the swastika for everybody, kind of like how the idiot southerners ruined the Confederate flag for everybody.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

What? No, it doesn't matter if you fly an 'enemy flag' from some historical conflict.

Why would it?

Well, some people like to talk about "patriotism" as some great virtue. It seems to me that such "patriots" wouldn't really cotton to anyone flying the flags of enemy nations.

I wonder if anyone would have a problem with a West Point student flying a Taliban banner in his dorm room...

I'm not necessarily AGAINST his right to fly such a flag - but he IS staying in a university-owned dorm, is he not? Does the university have any right to say what standards they want upheld, or what they find acceptable? Maybe he should move off-campus to another place where he can fly whatever he wants.

Again, not judging, just asking questions.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:54 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It wouldn't bother me, but I think there may be safety issues involved in flying a Taliban banner. The government has a policy of seizing persons who show support for the nation's enemies.

Incidentally, this flag:

Allowed slavery for nearly a hundred years.

Used biological weapons and mass-murder in attempted genocide against indigenous peoples.

Placed noncombatants into internment camps.

And targeted civilians during military campaigns.

So, hopefully people are supporting select ideals when they fly that flag, and are not endorsing every policy ever undertaken by that nation.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 2:55 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Okay the Talliban thing would be weird because its current and they are our current enemy. I definitely understand your point about the Nazi flag vs. the Confederate flag Quicko, both could be seen as part of someone's herritage. I think when people make decisions about this stuff, whether rightly or wrongly, its based on how much time has elapsed. But how do you put a time expiration on cruelty or treachery?

If everyone were more responsable and nicer to begin with we wouldn't have this problem andpeople wouldn't have to decide these things for each other. But in answer to your question about someone flying their Nazi flag Quicko, I guess maybe the answer would be the same as the Confederate one? You've got the right but are you willing to pay the price of someone else beating you up and not talking to you and writing grafiti all over your walls about how you are trash.

If I ran things I might just say no, because its easier, but if I did that then someone else, who ran things after me, could outlaw something that I valued or wanted to do because they found it offensive, and yes there are a few things that I believe that are offensive to some. So I have to watch my back and not ban stuff without just and fair cause.

If the person was someone I knew I'd definitely try to encourage her/him to find something a little more palitable to represent their herritage to hang out instead. If they needed to they could keep their Nazi/Confederate flag inside on the wall.

I do hate it though when some group or other messes up something that was okay to start with.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 4:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Actually, they were fascists. Just like you.

Only you saying it doesn't make it true. And since there's no evidence you can offer up which proves your point of view, it's totally with out merit.

Quote:

Which reminds me, would the swastika be so universally detested ( at least, in the West ) if it weren't on the nazi flag ? Maybe Niki remembers, what folks thought of it, before Hitler.

Answer: No, it wouldn't be. It was on several flags prior to WWII, including Norway's, if memory serves.

Yeah, genius, it was a trick question. Of course we wouldn't see a centuries old symbol, generally seen as a sign for good luck, as the sign of utter hatred and evil in our time. Why allow one group of haters decide for the rest of us how we should view something ?

Oh well, not anything I'm gonna lose sleep over.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

...the nazis were SOCIALISTS.

"Only you saying it doesn't make it true. And since there's no evidence you can offer up which proves your point of view, it's totally with out merit."

See how easy that was?

Quote:

Of course we wouldn't see a centuries old symbol, generally seen as a sign for good luck, as the sign of utter hatred and evil in our time. Why allow one group of haters decide for the rest of us how we should view something ?

You're saying "we" wouldn't see the swastika as evil "in our time"? Really?

Interesting.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, November 30, 2011 5:40 PM

DREAMTROVE

Ahh, partisanship.

I haven't really missed it. Anthony had a good point there, though, in the middle of the pointless bickering.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:28 AM

Interesting take. It's now "partisanship" to point out untruths.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:45 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The Confederate flag needs to be permanently laid to rest. It is absolutely a wretched symbol of slavery, and any revisionist attempt to say otherwise is just plain absurd. While I can respect the soldiers who fought for the Conferderacy, I can not tolerate their flag being displayed anywhere in public view. While there may have been nobility in their heroism, there was no nobility in their cause. 2013 will be the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, and I think that would be a great time for the President to deliver the Conferderate flag to the battlefield, make a speech, and then bury the damn thing for good...... (like they did in OL's Gettysburg episode).

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:20 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Interesting take. It's now "partisanship" to point out untruths.

Isn't it always? I mean. that's where it starts, "someone is wrong on the internet" and then it degenerates into personal attacks.

Quote:
Originally posted by Robert E. Lee:

"In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil"

Jong

How strange it feels to be to the right of you on an issue, but I feel this is a free speech point. The major issue of the confederacy was states rights, rights guaranteed to the states by the constitution. It was the decision about how the country would continue, whether as an alliance of free an independent states allied for mutual protection, or as a collection of subordinate states under a strong central authority.

When it comes to issues, my sympathy is with the north, on the process concern, with the south. The Confederacy was not an ideal model, but it was a better one than the union, from a process point of view. As for the meaning of Lee's battleflag, it's been used to mean precisely what the student in question intends it to mean for 150 years. I'm not sure it has ever been used to mean support for slavery.

It's also worth pointing out that the forced labor of blacks is not the only form of slavery ever to exist, in fact, in Texas there are plantations of hereditary servitude by Mexican-americans, and sharecropper and migrant worker farms all over the south, run by major corporations.

Currently Apple employs a slave city of 300,000 in Shenzhou (Foxconn aka ipod city.) Workers are ostensibly paid ¥5.60 RMB, but wages are docked for food and housing, and the compound is surrounded by barbed wire fence and armed guards.

Does that mean that this is a symbol no one should sport?

I'm with Frem on this one. Freedom of speech doesn't stop where it offends someone.

Rather I think that intelligent free speech raises questions more than it offends, and I think this student has raised a question. I don't think it's on a level with "God hates fags" Or perhaps, god hates flags. But I'm willing to defend the rights of the Phelps so that other people will be able to speak their minds.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:42 AM

Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

This guy isn't on his own property; he's on university property. If he actually owned his own house and had the flag on his wall, I'd wager the university wouldn't have dick to say about it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:39 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

This guy isn't on his own property; he's on university property. If he actually owned his own house and had the flag on his wall, I'd wager the university wouldn't have dick to say about it.

Sort'a like the Occupy protestors on State or city property then(University of South Carolina Beaufort is a State university, you know). Didn't know you supported the forced removal of Occupy encampments.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:54 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

This guy isn't on his own property; he's on university property. If he actually owned his own house and had the flag on his wall, I'd wager the university wouldn't have dick to say about it.

Sort'a like the Occupy protestors on State or city property then(University of South Carolina Beaufort is a State university, you know). Didn't know you supported the forced removal of Occupy encampments.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Hello,

Isn't state or city property, by definition, a public concern?

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony's right, in my opinion, about what the American flag has stood for, in the past and currently (although patriotism is ALWAYS about only the good things in a country, soooo...).

It comes down to what Riona said:

Quote:
You've got the right but are you willing to pay the price

Whether the university or any of TPTB do anything, or has the RIGHT to do anything, anyone who chooses to do something which pisses others off had best be prepared to take their lumps, wrong tho' that may be. Barring freedom of speech is only guaranteed against the GOVERNMENT, not the people. And people can be surprisingly touchy about symbols ;o)

Quote:
freedom of personal expression doesn't end when it starts offending people - IMHO that's actually when it truly begins.

Absofrigginlootely, as long as one is prepared for the possible repercussions.

Quote:
that's where it starts, "someone is wrong on the internet" and then it degenerates into personal attacks

In general on the internet you're right DT, but where it pertains to Mike and Raptor, I don't see it as partisanship where they're concerned. I see it more as two guys who are just ITCHING to get at one another, for any reason at all.

There's a difference between a kid wanting to fly the Confederate flag and Occupiers; he's (supposedly) doing it because it's a symbol he admires and his complaint is that there's a fuss over it. Occupiers are occupying places as a point of civil disobedience, and recognize they authorities will attack them because of it.

(DT, I couldn't read all of your posts, they go off the end of the page. I'd like to, tho'.)

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:27 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Interesting take. It's now "partisanship" to point out untruths.

Isn't it always? I mean. that's where it starts, "someone is wrong on the internet"

Yeah, great idea, lets just allow people to lie blatantly, lest we get too partisan by stating the truth.

Fuckin' brilliant.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:30 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

This guy isn't on his own property; he's on university property. If he actually owned his own house and had the flag on his wall, I'd wager the university wouldn't have dick to say about it.

Sort'a like the Occupy protestors on State or city property then(University of South Carolina Beaufort is a State university, you know). Didn't know you supported the forced removal of Occupy encampments.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Funny, you'd think at your age, you'd have figured out the difference between public property, and private property. Huh.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 7:14 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny, you'd think at your age, you'd have figured out the difference between public property, and private property. Huh.

City Hall building and lawn - public property. State university dorm - public property. Doesn't seem that hard.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 7:25 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

I think it is both.

Should one have free speech rights on public property?

I say yes. Esp if one is renting personal space on said public property.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 7:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, *IS* this a "free speech" issue, or is it a property rights issue?

This guy isn't on his own property; he's on university property. If he actually owned his own house and had the flag on his wall, I'd wager the university wouldn't have dick to say about it.

Sort'a like the Occupy protestors on State or city property then(University of South Carolina Beaufort is a State university, you know). Didn't know you supported the forced removal of Occupy encampments.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Good to know you're 100% approving of this guy being arrested, beaten, pepper-sprayed, and forcibly removed from the school.

But at least you admit he IS breaking the law.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA

State university dorm or not, if he's payin for it, which he is - then for the time he is doing so and occupying it, it's considered HIS property within limits, and free expression is most certainly within those - not a lot different from one apartment renter bitching at another for the same thing, which would draw nothing but scorn from me in exactly the same fashion.

Now if he has a roomie, and the roomie takes issue with it, that's a bit different, but it's still something THEY gonna have to work out, and anyone ELSE not having a goddamn say in it cause it's frankly none of their fekkin business.

Oh, and worth a note here, some of my ancestors fought for the CSA, *and* were firmly against the notion of slavery - point of that being that Lincoln the monster didn't free the slaves, he made us ALL slaves, bitches to the Federal Government.
But that is a whole nother topic entire.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:11 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

State university dorm or not, if he's payin for it, which he is - then for the time he is doing so and occupying it, it's considered HIS property within limits, and free expression is most certainly within those

That would all depend on the rental agreement.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:33 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Good to know you're 100% approving of this guy being arrested, beaten, pepper-sprayed, and forcibly removed from the school.

But at least you admit he IS breaking the law.

No, Mike. That would be you. You seem to think that he has no First Amendment rights on public property.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:36 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I am confused, it now seems you two are just going at it for fun, and have no actual disagreement anymore.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:51 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am confused, it now seems you two are just going at it for fun, and have no actual disagreement anymore.

Hard to figure where Mike's going with this. He seems to be saying that a college student lawfully on public property has no right to free expression under the First Amendment.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
you two are just going at it for fun, and have no actual disagreement anymore.

Anthony, given you're addressing Mike and Raptor, this comes as a surprise to you? Duhhh...

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:11 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I am confused, it now seems you two are just going at it for fun, and have no actual disagreement anymore.

Hard to figure where Mike's going with this. He seems to be saying that a college student lawfully on public property has no right to free expression under the First Amendment.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Hello,

I think you are mistaking one another.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:20 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I think you are mistaking one another.

--Anthony

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not necessarily AGAINST his right to fly such a flag - but he IS staying in a university-owned dorm, is he not? Does the university have any right to say what standards they want upheld, or what they find acceptable? Maybe he should move off-campus to another place where he can fly whatever he wants.

Seems pretty clear what Mike's stand is.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 10:31 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I understood him to be playing devil's advocate for the purpose of inspiring debate, since I'm pretty sure he is not of the position that free speech should be curtailed in public facilities. Just like his comments about flying the flags of enemy nations, I don't think this is actually a point of contention for him, but rather a springboard for discussion.

If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll tell me so. And I will be shocked and dismayed. But I don't think I'm wrong.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:02 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Funny, you'd think at your age, you'd have figured out the difference between public property, and private property. Huh.

City Hall building and lawn - public property. State university dorm - public property. Doesn't seem that hard.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

The dorms would not be public property. It would be state property, but not public property. Public property is property dedicated for use by the public. The dorm is dedicated for use by students enrolled in the school.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:12 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If it's supported with public funds, it shan't be used to deny public freedoms.

Says I.

Also why I advocate cutting off the Boy Scouts from public support systems whenever they discriminate.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:33 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think Nick brings up a reasonable point. If the student signed rental agreements for living at school and things were in there about flags then he needs to abide by them or move elsewhere. It just seems like common courtesy. I understand where Anthony is coming from about how if its a state university then its state property so its subject to free speech rules, but maybe this is the place where things get muddy. This new info makes me less sure on where I stand in this scenario. And I'll tell you why.

When I own my group home someday for touched folk, it will have rules, our household won't be a place where everyone can do whatever, we must ensure that the household is safe and nurturing etc. So there will be rules. I do intend to make use of some government funding in order to run our household, so by Anthony's feelings I have no right to make certain rules if we get any money from the government and I refuse to hold to that idea.

That's why this has become more complex for me, how much authority does the university in this case have? What was in the rental/dorm agreements about this issue? Is it out of line for the university to make rules for its tenants?

It seems like things get more muddy the more you discuss them.

I loved it though when DreamTrove did the "Originally posted by Robert E. Lee" thing, that was cool. I feel bad for Lee, sure he made some choices that weren't the best, but from everything I've learnt about him he was a good person in many ways and was really torn about what to do, whose side to fight on etc. He was quite talented in matters of war too.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:34 AM

DALEK!

I think the school is being a little to touchy. Unless they are getting complaints about the flag they should let him keep it.

That being said, he agreed to follow the rules of that school when he decided to enroll there. At the end of the day making him take down his flag does not totaly remove his rights to free speech. Remember no right is absolute. We all know the example about shouting fire.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 11:37 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

No school that survives in whole or in part with public funds shall enjoy the squashing of civil liberties as one of its 'rules.' Not without protest. I protest it bitterly.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

State university dorm or not, if he's payin for it, which he is - then for the time he is doing so and occupying it, it's considered HIS property within limits, and free expression is most certainly within those.

"Within limits" is the key phrase here. The Supreme Court has averred, time and again, that there ARE limits on free speech, and that those limits can be even greater when the property you're speaking on isn't owned by you, even if you are a renter.

How far does the free speech right go? Does his history prof have the right to tell the class that this student should be a slave, or call him the N-word in front of the class? After all, that *IS* part of his heritage as a black Southerner, isn't it?

Should students be able to run their own Stormfront chapter or Aryan Nation recruiting post on the campus, using campus equipment (computers, printers, etc.), as long as they're paying their tuition and fees?

If the university has rules and regulations regarding this kind of stuff, and if the student in question signed the paperwork outlining his rights and responsibilities regarding said rules and regulations, then he hasn't really got a legal leg to stand on, it seems.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Good to know you're 100% approving of this guy being arrested, beaten, pepper-sprayed, and forcibly removed from the school.

But at least you admit he IS breaking the law.

No, Mike. That would be you. You seem to think that he has no First Amendment rights on public property.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

No, I seem to think the First Amendment rights are not absolute. The Supreme Court agrees with me, and so do you. You've indicated more than once that you have no problem with our country assassinating its own citizens when they speak out against our country.

You also seem to think the OWS protesters have no First Amendment rights on public property. I say they do, but I also note that they can be - and ARE being - arrested for exercising said rights. The charges aren't likely to stick, but they are being arrested, as well as being beaten, tased, shot, pepper sprayed, and more.

Seems your biggest problem with this student is that he hasn't been beaten into a coma, shot, or pepper sprayed yet. Maybe the campus police will yet do you proud, though. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:23 PM

Anthony: Does someone have the unfettered "right" under the First Amendment to hang an effigy of a black person from a tree on the campus? To hang a giant swastika banner on the outside of the football stadium during football games? To attend classes wearing a KKK robe and hood? To paint a pentagram on the alter of the campus chapel?

This is what I'm getting at: WHERE are the limits to free speech and free expression?

I contend that the OWS protesters are indeed breaking the law(s) in the cities where they're camping and protesting. That is entirely their aim in doing what they're doing. They are fully intending to break the laws and force the system to deal with them. The idea is to push such cases into the court system to discover whether or not those very laws are valid in the first place.

If that is the aim of this student, then more power to him, but I don't like his odds.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:42 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Do you want my opinion?

"Does someone have the unfettered "right" under the First Amendment to hang an effigy of a black person from a tree on the campus?"

Yes, if they take it with them when they leave. Otherwise it is littering.

"To hang a giant swastika banner on the outside of the football stadium during football games?"

Sure, but if multiple people want to unfurl banners, there may need to be some kind of schedule. Also, no leaving it unattended. Littering, again.

"To attend classes wearing a KKK robe and hood?"

Again, sure. Wear what you like. I'd even say go nude if you want to, were it my decision.

"To paint a pentagram on the alter of the campus chapel?"

No, you'll need to bring a pentagram with you for pentagram related services. Or perhaps the chapel can provide one. It should represent the spiritual needs of the community, after all. Maybe there could be a revolving Icon with a cross on one side and a pentagram on the other. And maybe the cross could be designed to rotate 180 to accommodate the needs of Satanists. And I guess you'll need a Crescent for Muslims. Etc. I'd shy away from paint because it's hard to change out according to the next person's needs.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:58 PM