Open Letter from America's Port Truck Drivers by canttakesky

America loves a winner!

I find it curious that the term ' rights ' is tossed around so often, inaccurately, and instead should just be referred to as ' stuff we really want'.

That doesn't make them a "right".

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I find it curious that the term ' rights ' is tossed around so often, inaccurately, and instead should just be referred to as ' stuff we really want'.

That's a very good point, Rap!

There is a very blurry line between "right" and "stuff we really want." I am not sure myself where that line should be drawn.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 5:15 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think a right is 'stuff we really want' AND 'stuff we are willing to fight for tooth and nail.'

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 5:51 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I think a right is 'stuff we really want' AND 'stuff we are willing to fight for tooth and nail.'

--Anthony

As much as I'd like a nekkid Jessica Alba serving me chicken wings & bass beer, I have no " right" to that. I'm free to pursue such, if I can figure out how, but it's not a right that's owed to me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As much as I'd like a nekkid Jessica Alba serving me chicken wings & bass beer, I have no " right" to that. I'm free to pursue such, if I can figure out how, but it's not a right that's owed to me.

Would you feel the same way if 99% of the world has a nekkid JA serving wings and beer to them, but you don't?

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 6:21 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Would you feel the same way if 99% of the world has a nekkid JA serving wings and beer to them, but you don't?

I think the OWS people are mad because 1% of the people are hogging all the naked Jessica Albas...while I understand the unfairness of it all, I believe that the only thing better then one JA is two JAs and when I see some rich fella with his truck full of Jessica Albas then I'm determined to work my ass off to get me some of those wings...and naked Albas.

On the other hand the rich correctly argue that without them providing the working capital for investments, there'd be no Jessica Albas for anyone, not to mention wings and beer.

As for closing the ports, its important in times of economic uncertainty for crazy socialists to do as much as possible to bring what commerce we have to a halt thus making sure that as many people as possible are out of work this holiday season. I'm not saying it makes sense, but its what they believe.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 6:44 AM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I think a right is 'stuff we really want' AND 'stuff we are willing to fight for tooth and nail.'

--Anthony

As much as I'd like a nekkid Jessica Alba serving me chicken wings & bass beer, I have no " right" to that. I'm free to pursue such, if I can figure out how, but it's not a right that's owed to me.

The heck does Jessica Alba have to do with what Anthony said? Obviously, your desire for Jessica Alba is not a value you're willing to fight for.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 7:49 AM

BLUEHANDEDMENACE

Naked Jessica Albas as currency? I think this system could totally work.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I think the OWS people are mad because 1% of the people are hogging all the naked Jessica Albas...while I understand the unfairness of it all, I believe that the only thing better then one JA is two JAs and when I see some rich fella with his truck full of Jessica Albas then I'm determined to work my ass off to get me some of those wings...and naked Albas.

On the other hand the rich correctly argue that without them providing the working capital for investments, there'd be no Jessica Albas for anyone, not to mention wings and beer.

That was actually quite funny, Hero. :)

But they are not complaining about not having nekkid JA's and wings and beer. Some of the stuff we want are luxuries. Some of the stuff we want are not. Like food, shelter, and dignity.

They are complaining about working 60 hours a week, away from their families and on the road, for about $10/hour before taxes. Then they have to keep up their rigs with that, which means they have to choose between holding their rigs together or feeding their kids. They are complaining about not having bathrooms or the infrastructure to do their jobs with the same dignity afforded to other professions. They have the responsibility of independent contractors, but the authority and pay of a low-level employee. Before taxes, they make $28,783 a year, averaging 59 hours a week.

I don't blame them if they want to fight to change their industry so that the workers get a bit more of the profits, so their work and lives have more value. If the cast of The Simpsons can strike over and over again to be paid the $400,000 per episode they get now, why can't port truck drivers negotiate for "the stuff they want"?

More info:
http://nelp.3cdn.net/000beaf922628dfea1_cum6b0fab.pdf

ETA: I know no one has said that they can't negotiate. It was a rhetorical device to highlight their right to negotiate.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 8:37 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oops...apologies CTS; I posted this open letter in another thread. I hadn't read the one here; went through the thread and saw it had become a Jessica Alba thread, so passed on it. When you brought it to the top again, I realized my mistake. But yes, it touched me deeply too, as well as informing me of many things I didn't know.

So apologies for duplicating your efforts; maybe those who didn't read it in one thread will do so in the other, hopefully, because I think it's both illuminating and worth the read. Thank you.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 8:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As much as I'd like a nekkid Jessica Alba serving me chicken wings & bass beer, I have no " right" to that. I'm free to pursue such, if I can figure out how, but it's not a right that's owed to me.
Would you feel the same way if 99% of the world has a nekkid JA serving wings and beer to them, but you don't?

I'm not even sure you know what you're asking.

The point is, merely wanting something, and a willingness to fight for something doesn't make that thing a " right ". A 'right', as described in the US Constitution, is something we all have, by mere existence. It's not something which can be GIVEN, but it can be denied and taken away.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

One might ask, "What happened to the Constitution?"

Quote:
in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Sure, not "rights" per se, but the situation as it is now certainly doesn't do any of THOSE things, does it?

Nobody has the "right" to life, liberty and justice, but if they're not rights, but they're something we have a "right" to, as the Founding Fathers seemed to think, doesn't that mean when they're being (have been) taken away from us, we have the right to fight to get them back?

S'funny, all these people who want a smaller government, yet seem to have no problem with government having deliberately enhanced the "rights" of corporations and the wealthy over everyone else, seems confusing. When the government works in collusion with the rich and corporations to do things which are exactly the OPPOSITE of what the Constitutions says we're supposed to be trying to become, they have no problem with that either. A conundrum.

It's also strange that they don't like government, but like corporations...yet when government deliberately gives corporatins the ability to increase their profits and is pretty much bought and paid for by moneyed interests, they keep saying the rich got there because they worked for it, and corporations' profits are what they are because they earned them. IF government hadn't given those people extra powers and ability to profit, then they wouldn't be so rich, so it seems as if they'd LIKE government...

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Thanks Niki.

For driving the conversation off the road, through the guard rail, down the embankment,and careening into the underbrush...

Quote:
yet when government deliberately gives corporatins the ability to increase their profits

GIVES them this ability ? Really? Now we need the govt's permission to earn profits ? That's the entire POINT of having a corporation , you pin head! To make $, so as to provide for the employees, who then take that $ and enjoy the fruits of their labor,as they see fit, in a free society. Your hatred for true freedom really does seem to know no bounds.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:57 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
GIVES them this ability ? Really? Now we need the govt's permission to earn profits ? That's the entire POINT of having a corporation , you pin head! To make $, so as to provide for the employees, who then take that $ and enjoy the fruits of their labor,as they see fit, in a free society. Your hatred for true freedom really does seem to know no bounds.

I'll note for the record that at least you didn't claim that people have a "right" to "enjoy the fruits of their labor". 'Cause if you did, you'd kind of be siding with the truckers you claim have no such "rights".

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 10:59 AM

America loves a winner!

That's exactly what I said, and it's what the truckers have now. No one is denying their rights to spend their money as they see fit. Stop trying to fabricate crap, simply to start an argument.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's not something which can be GIVEN, but it can be denied and taken away.

I really, really like this definition, Rap.

I see two usages for the word "right."

1. A freedom that shall not be infringed upon or taken away by a government.

2. A necessary commodity or service that is enjoyed the overwhelming majority of a society as part of its standard of living, such that the majority would die and kill for the necessity were it to be absent. Examples might be: food, shelter, clothing, transportation, communication, education, health care.

I can understand if you want to reject the 2nd definition entirely. But I can also understand if someone else wants to use the second definition. I don't see a problem with the language, even if I don't agree with the policy.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 1:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
IF government hadn't given those people extra powers and ability to profit, then they wouldn't be so rich, so it seems as if they'd LIKE government...

Yup.

Let's just say the corporations have a right (freedom) to pay port truck drivers squat and treat them like dogs.

Port truck drivers also have the right (freedom) to strike, negotiate, whine, shuffle, and support Occupy in order to get higher pay and better treatment.

And I have the right (freedom) to support the port truck drivers' demand for better and more human working conditions.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 2:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Do they have a union? If they don't then maybe they should get one if people won't listen and improve things.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 3:11 PM

DREAMTROVE

I find rights are something that I can do without hurting others, and services are something that others have to do for me, so require me to require their time. I think I should pay for services. If a doctor fixes me, I'm asking for his time. If someone brings me food, I'm asking for my time. If I grow weed, I'm doing it myself. If I have sex with Jessica Alba, that's my right, but talking her into it requires skill.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
IF government hadn't given those people extra powers and ability to profit, then they wouldn't be so rich, so it seems as if they'd LIKE government...
Yup.

Let's just say the corporations have a right (freedom) to pay port truck drivers squat and treat them like dogs.

Port truck drivers also have the right (freedom) to strike, negotiate, whine, shuffle, and support Occupy in order to get higher pay and better treatment.

And I have the right (freedom) to support the port truck drivers' demand for better and more human working conditions.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

Hear, hear! You rock, CTS!

Corporations are groups of people organized to cut costs and increase their revenues (profits). They band together and negotiate prices. People should have the same rights. Maybe if labor unions incorporated themselves they could get some respect from the right!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 5:59 PM

America loves a winner!

CTS...

I guess it comes down to whether you think that promoting the general welfare means allowing society the freedom to attend to it's basic needs, or , as some others seem to think, that the federal govt should provide all with some sort of basic " welfare " , such needs and services as to be determined by a small, select group with in the govt, at the expense of everyone else, and doled out BY the govt.

I much prefer the former, myself.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 7:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
...that the federal govt should provide all with some sort of basic " welfare " ,

If enough people want to call a basic standard of living a "right," I don't have a problem with that *language*. Meaning, I don't have a problem with someone saying people have a "right" to food, shelter, and health care.

I have a problem with any public *policy* requiring govt to secure those "rights." Even if food, shelter, and health care are "rights," I believe it is NOT the govt's job to address those rights.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 13, 2011 7:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Do they have a union? If they don't then maybe they should get one if people won't listen and improve things.

As I understand it, because they are classified as independent contractors and not employees, they can't unionize. That is one of the things they want to change.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 1:13 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:If enough people want to call a basic standard of living a "right," I don't have a problem with that *language*. Meaning, I don't have a problem with someone saying people have a "right" to food, shelter, and health care.

Well, I do. Because those things you list, food, shelter and health care, are dependent on someone ELSE giving something up in order for another person to receive these 'rights'.

Free speech ? Worship of religion ? No one has to offer up a portion of their lives for me to enjoy these rights. They're inherent, meaning they can be enjoyed by all, regardless of what anyone else does.

Quote:

I have a problem with any public *policy* requiring govt to secure those "rights." Even if food, shelter, and health care are "rights," I believe it is NOT the govt's job to address those rights.

Then they're not "rights" at all, if the govt has to provide for them.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Do they have a union? If they don't then maybe they should get one if people won't listen and improve things.
As I understand it, because they are classified as independent contractors and not employees, they can't unionize. That is one of the things they want to change.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

I would question the WHY of that? Why can't independent contractors unionize? Seems to me there could be a Union of Independent Contractors (UIC) to represent the unrepresented.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:04 AM

Quote:
They're inerrant, meaning they can be enjoyed by all, regardless of what anyone else does.

"I do not think that word means what you think it means."

I believe the word you're looking for is "Inherent".

You're welcome.

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 3:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Then they're not "rights" at all, if the govt has to provide for them.

As an anarchist/libertarian, I can easily envision a society without government. Yet the members of that society still has rights.

Rights CAN be secured without government. It is convenient and expedient if "rights" are provided for by govt, but they don't have to be.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I believe the word you're looking for is "Inherent".

You're welcome.

Thought I typed that. It was the word I meant to use. Thank you.

Quote:

As an anarchist/libertarian, I can easily envision a society without government. Yet the members of that society still has rights.

Rights CAN be secured without government. It is convenient and expedient if "rights" are provided for by govt, but they don't have to be.

Well, I see myself as a ( conservative ) libertarian, one who accepts the view that govt is a necessary evil.

I don't believe we receive ANY rights FROM govt, but govt does protect our innate , natural rights.

Does that make sense ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, December 14, 2011 12:07 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

I don't believe in natural or innate rights. If those existed there would be little argument on what they were.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 11:29 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
I don't believe in natural or innate rights. If those existed there would be little argument on what they were.

" Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness " works for me.

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 12:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I would question the WHY of that? Why can't independent contractors unionize? Seems to me there could be a Union of Independent Contractors (UIC) to represent the unrepresented.

Motor Transport Workers Industrial Union 530
http://www.iww.org/en/unions/dept500/iu530

Been there, done that, nobody seems to have noticed.

-F

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Thursday, December 15, 2011 7:13 PM