This one for you Chris by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

This one for you Chris

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 18:28
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VIEWED: 1907
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Monday, December 19, 2011 4:05 PM

Appears the Sith are loose among us.

Police arrest man accused of light saber assault at Toys R Us
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/police-arrest-man-accused-light-s
aber-assault-toys-162829995.html

Quote:
Yes, that's right: The attacker used his light saber to deflect two Taser blasts.

Remember, they could be anybody!

Report suspicious Sith-like activity at our tipline: 1-888-THE-JEDI , and may the force be with you!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, December 19, 2011 7:04 PM

WISHIMAY

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/12/18/seeing-lightsaber-star-wars-re
ligion-for-czechs/

I go ya one better. I'm thinking of converting, as long as Firefly is one of the books in the middle. The Book of Mal, chapter 1 verse 1; and so He looked upon it(the ship) and he saw it was good. And He said "Let there be passengers, and whoreing, and bring unto me hot feisty chicks, but neither shall I touch them, lest there be drama"

I guess the book of Serenity would be a bit like Revelations... Definitely, some appocalyptic level shit going on there

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Monday, December 19, 2011 8:09 PM

CHRISISALL

George Lucas must be proud.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 8:54 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Report suspicious Sith-like activity at our tipline: 1-888-THE-JEDI , and may the force be with you!

I JUST TRIED TO REPORT MYSELF- It's a bogus #!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, December 19, 2011 9:08 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I heard about that guy at Toys R Us too.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 19, 2011 9:24 PM

HKCAVALIER

You'd think a respected Sith could come up with some better moves than the Running Man.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Light sabres don't work too well when you're getting shot from the rear with laser blasts. Just ask all the Jedi who were wiped out by the Clones' programmed betrayal.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Light sabres don't work too well when you're getting shot from the rear with laser blasts. Just ask all the Jedi who were wiped out by the Clones' programmed betrayal.

Hello,

Curse their sudden but inevitable betrayal...

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:58 AM

BYTEMITE

Ooh, speaking of. I really like how in more recent stuff in the Star Wars extended universe makes Jedi and Sith less about good and evil and more about the perils of repressed emotion. It seems like a lot of the Jedi are so repressed that the moment their emotions DO come to the surface, they can't control or direct those emotions towards any good end. So it ends up fallen Jedi associate letting their emotions loose with getting drunk on power and evil.

Apparently the whole bringing balance to the force thing was about the Vader wiping the Jedi out and Luke coming in to replace the old Jedi Order with one that doesn't have a tree shoved up it's backside.

I've been wasting my time with the new Star Wars MMO, because hey, it's Bioware. The Old Republic has it's good people and it's corruption. And the Sith, well, their Empire is as torture happy as the much later Empire in the movies, and lots of it is ambition treachery competition with murderous psychopaths thrown in, but there's also room to play decent people just trying to get by in the world and live life to the fullest.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 10:18 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Byte,

Yeah, that's always been a big pet peeve of mine: the west's misunderstanding of eastern thought. Boils down in this case to two very different definitions of "anger." The western conception of anger is extremely broad, while in eastern thought anger is pretty specific. The anger that eastern mystics avoid is pretty much synonymous with violence and violent ideation. THAT's the thing a proper Buddhist, or in this case jedi is gonna eschew. That's the anger that leads to hate that leads to suffering.

And as far as jedi not being allowed to date anybody, it has to do with another difficult to translate concept we know as "attatchment." But beyond that, in the world where jedi lift x-wing fighters out of the muck with the Force, an ethical jedi would have to be extremely careful with his passions. In our world, a decent man in a sqabble with his girlfriend might suddenly become angry and slam a door or punch a wall. A jedi experiencing the same thing might crush a few people with a bus. Oopsie. Force powers are nothing to trifle with. So, it makes a hell of a lot of sense to me that a jedi in training would stay out of really volatile sexuo-emotional entanglements.

But that's not the western way. I've had it explained to me like this: here in the west, where we revere indiviuality above all things, alienation is the norm, psychologically. Western therapy is a lot about breaking through that alienation, so the patient can experience connection with the rest of humanity. Reparenting and resocializing the patient to accept his/her place in the group.

The eastern neurosis is sorta the opposite. In the east the group is revered far above the individual. In western terms, the typical eastern child grows up not alienated but deeply enmeshed in his/her family group. Buddhistic healing/training is all about bringing such a person into an existential awareness of their individuality, to pull the psyche back into the self.

So, you see the problem. When a westerner gains an imperfect understanding of eastern thought, it tends to reinforce western neurotic alienation. That's why we see all these tremendously austere Buddhists in the west. They all seem repressed, and avoidant, and superior. When you finally do meet a native Tibetan Buddhist you may be surprised at how downright goofy they can be, laughing and smiling and hugging all day long.

So, in the Lucasverse we have a pretty schizo concept of the jedi. And in the prequels a completely westernized hysterical notion of "jedi repression."

Makes me sad.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 10:56 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But that's not the western way. I've had it explained to me like this: here in the west, where we revere indiviuality above all things, alienation is the norm, psychologically. Western therapy is a lot about breaking through that alienation, so the patient can experience connection with the rest of humanity. Reparenting and resocializing the patient to accept his/her place in the group.

The eastern neurosis is sorta the opposite. In the east the group is revered far above the individual. In western terms, the typical eastern child grows up not alienated but deeply enmeshed in his/her family group. Buddhistic healing/training is all about bringing such a person into an existential awareness of their individuality, to pull the psyche back into the self.

Wow. That was brilliant. Thank you.

As someone who has been immersed in both eastern and western thought, this explanation resonates with me.

Ultimately, it is finding balance between the individual and group.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 11:16 AM

BYTEMITE

The funny thing is, at least some of the repressed Jedi attitude seen in the sequel wasn't always around, but an over-reaction to the Dark Jedi that became the Sith. Jedi USED to be able to get married and have families, maybe some Jedi would choose chastity and an ascetic life-style, but not all of them.

The problem was even with some allowances the Jedi lifestyle was pretty restrictive and cloistered, and when someone inevitably felt the need to act out, they'd be considered heretics and exiled. Eventually there were enough Dark Jedi and regular Jedi that the Dark Jedi came back and asserted that their emotion-driven abilities were better than the Jedi's meditative style.

After that the two cults in general started to model themselves to be as opposite of the other as possible. Until you have the end result, with few exceptions, a bunch of boring repressed sheltered altruistic Paladins versus a bunch of volatile and ambitious sociopathic social darwinists. Both philosophies have some points about them, and also obvious flaws.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:12 PM

CANTTAKESKY

You will watch this video. Impressive fight choreography too.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Apparently the whole bringing balance to the force thing was about the Vader wiping the Jedi out and Luke coming in to replace the old Jedi Order with one that doesn't have a tree shoved up it's backside.

Yep, and Yoda lying through his teeth and being a total hypocrite about it in fact helped cause the very events he was hoping to prevent, lil prick.

Any time an organisation starts denying or suppressing it's own humanity (for lack of a better word since I include non-earth people in that) they've doomed themselves, it's all just a matter of time.

I've always been more fond of the Grey Jedi and the Potentium theory, cause projecting ones own flaws upon something else in an effort to deny them is lying to yourself - but then the freakin Jedi had LOTS of practice doin that, grrr.

I'm still of the mind that they "had it comin", most of them.

-Frem

PS. Much, much love for the Droideka, as a wonderful form of pest-control in response to Jedi infestation.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:38 PM

BYTEMITE

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HalfTruth?from=Main.FromACe
rtainPointOfView

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:03 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
You will watch this video. Impressive fight choreography too.

Impressive. Most impressive.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:04 PM

HKCAVALIER

I blame the writing. It's tough to write good mystical truth, when ya ain't a mystic. So, "Darth Vader killed your father" was a lie, but it was also the truth. My own father was "murdered" in a similar way. If some crazy ol' hermit told me the like, I wouldn't fault him for it when I learned the other truth.

At the same time, I don't think lying to Luke was the right thing to do. It's just how Obi Wan chose to deal with the information in his care. It would have been nice if Obi Wan had told Luke the truth before Luke went gunning for his dad, Oedipus style, but life is messy.

I'd say it was both true and a lie, like all good poetry, AND since it was both, Ol' Ben shoulda apologized to young Skywalker for telling him a half truth, because a half-truth is also a half-lie, instead of behaving like every bad parent in history--oh, no no no, son, I didn't lie, parents can't lie, I was, uh, uh, gimme a sec here, etc."

So, me, I think it was fine he told Luke the lie about Vader at the time, that is, when he was a child and was not in a position to do anything about his father's "death" anyway. I'm not really against lies, per se. They're not a perfect solution, but nothing is. I just think if you get cought at it, you BETTER GORRAM fess up so everyone can move on and you don't look like a total asshole.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 2:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, at least Dumbledore did that, to a point, and far too late - although any of that sorta thing rooks me, in any story and real life...

I mean, if you actually go through the whole Harry Potter series and count off how many people were harmed or killed BECAUSE they either didn't tell Harry jack shit or lied to him when they did, you start to wonder if maybe ole Moldy-Voldy had some seriously legit gripes against those fuckers, and when you factor in the endless abuse they were either negligent, complict, or direct initiators of...
Shit, I *WOULD* have sided with Voldy, if only to depose his ass and replace him once he'd cleaned house of them bastards who were not in most cases one whit better.

Same there with Luke, if they'd come clean with him things might have taken a less tragic course, and there's plenty of other examples both in fiction and real life.

What *IS* it with us that we feel this pressing need to lie to kids, especially in a fashion that often has disastrous consequences when the truth comes out, or BECAUSE we lied and they're operating on incomplete or insufficient information ?
(Relative note: the one guy who DID play it straight with Harry was such a complete dick about it that Harry wouldn't listen to him, that being Severus)

I play it straight with my nieces and others, even when the truth is unpleasant, or they're in no position to change it, because that kinda dishonesty does damage, not just pyschological but when they take actions based on that misinformation people can get hurt in so many ways - and it is BECAUSE of this, my refusal to shovel deceitful platitudes and socially approved fictions, that I rarely wind up facing the brick wall of mistrust and lies that children soon learn to offer to us as well, for they LEARN that shit from what we do to them.

Starting from the truth of the way things are, and contrasting the way things should be/are supposed to be, and then pointing out how to improve on the situation is always, ALWAYS better than comforting someone with polite little half-truths and distortions, that WILL come back to bite them, and while those who do it often dodge responsibility or consequences, IMHO they should be held accountable.

Sure, there's times I won't tell someone everything, or can't - but even that is something I feel one should be up front about cause it's usually them not having the experience or pre-requisite knowledge to comprehend or fully understand, or there's just not bloody time for it and I'll explain later.
(Although in the latter case, you damn well BETTER make good on it, when there is time.)

And if the truth is especially unpleasant I make very sure they really want to know before I go there.
As my niece tends to put it: "I don't want to know, I NEED to know, and you're the only one who won't lie to me!"

Just because those who do so all too often get a free pass, while those they lied to suffer the consequences is no good reason to continue the practice, far as I am concerned it's in fact the best reason to end it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:17 PM

HKCAVALIER

Oh, I see why you and I seem to be disagreeing here. I'd say lying isn't so much a moral issue as it is a competence issue. Lying is always suboptimal, a weak choice and one with many possibly embarrassing and/or tragic consequences down the line. So, of course, it enrages you. 'Cause it's dumb.

One thing I've found about children, is if they aren't ready for the truth, they don't tend to hear it. I once took care of a very inquisitive little boy and smart. He'd asked what "gay" meant, what "sex" meant, you know, the usual "forbidden knowledge." And me and his mom gave him as direct answers as we could. Then one day he wanted to know what "rape" was and we were kinda pussy-footing around that one for a bit, finally, started to say something about sex against someone's will when the youngster very assertively changed the subject on us and asked what's for lunch.

A lot of times, children don't so much want to know the answer, as they want to know that they can trust you not to lie to them. Once they've established that you're not a lying sack of shit, they happily change the subject.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:31 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

When kids ask me stuff I don't feel they're ready for I ask them to either ask their parents because its parents job to tell them that stuff or I say "I can't explain it to you right now, why don't you ask me later". These usually work.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Lying is always suboptimal"

Hello,

I'm not sure that I believe this.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:39 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

A lot of times, children don't so much want to know the answer, as they want to know that they can trust you not to lie to them. Once they've established that you're not a lying sack of shit, they happily change the subject.

VERY astute ob, HK!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:44 PM

HKCAVALIER

When you say "these usually work," Riona, do you mean they shut the kid up? Get you off the hook? That's not what I'm after. And as I said, those kinds of motives are pretty transparent to the child in question. Pull that kinda stunt often enough and the child will learn not to trust you.

In my spiritual tradition, children and animals are considered to be holy. Not answering a direct question from a child is disrespect. Furthermore, it's an indicator that something isn't quite right with me, that I have something to hide or that I feel ashamed of myself for some reason or other. Not giving the child a direct answer is bad faith.

But that's me. I don't judge others who choose to lie. They got their reasons. But that wouldn't stop me from counceling them to tell the truth as often as possible.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY

I never understood grown ups lying to kids about anything. If my kid asks me about rape, I say, "I'd be happy to tell you, but it is very gross. If you really want to know, I'll tell you. But if you want, it is perfectly fine to wait until you're older."

So far, they've always been happy to wait.

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:51 PM

HKCAVALIER

CTS, good answer!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:52 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I would lie to protect someone from harm.

I don't think it would even bother me.

But this is probably not what you mean when you say lying is always suboptimal.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:08 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Anthony,

Thanks for the clarification. I'd say that in such terribly suboptimal circumstances, lying can indeed be the best that you can do.

The example of "Darth Vader killed your father" is definitely iffy in this respect. Considering that Lord Vader is the most dangerous man in the galaxy at the time, lying to the boy about his precise connection to that magnitude of evil might improve the child's chances of survival.

But really, I think that lie wasn't in Luke's best interest at all. It was for Obi Wan's benefit. The subject was just too painful for him to acknowledge. He loved Anakin too much to speak of his betrayal and downfall to the boy Obi Wan had to steal from him.

But then there's the whole Force business. Were Luke to be made conscious of his father's true identity, that knowledge, and the child's natural desire to know his father, might reach out across the void and trouble Lord Vader's dreams and lead him to the child. Then Obi Wan would be telling Anthony's kinda lie for sure. But in that case, the scene when Luke confronts the old Seer about it would have played out much differently.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

When kids aren't your own there are certain things you really ought not to tell them because you'll get in trouble if their parents find out you told them. For instance my mother has told me I'm not to tell my lil' bro about men, women and sex, not even body part names. So when he's asked me about it in the past I've told him he needs to ask her. She's a prude too so good luck with that. But still.

And some things that society allows/does are shameful and shouldn't be told to little ones, I shall not name these things because it will result in a discussion that is akin to another going on on another thread.

Just sayin you're not always at liberty to say what you want, much less talk about all topics.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 5:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
One thing I've found about children, is if they aren't ready for the truth, they don't tend to hear it. I once took care of a very inquisitive little boy and smart. He'd asked what "gay" meant, what "sex" meant, you know, the usual "forbidden knowledge." And me and his mom gave him as direct answers as we could. Then one day he wanted to know what "rape" was and we were kinda pussy-footing around that one for a bit, finally, started to say something about sex against someone's will when the youngster very assertively changed the subject on us and asked what's for lunch.

A lot of times, children don't so much want to know the answer, as they want to know that they can trust you not to lie to them. Once they've established that you're not a lying sack of shit, they happily change the subject.

Yep, that's prettymuch how it goes - a lot of time they just wanna see if you WILL lie to them or brush them off, or if you are willing to break ranks on the socially approved challenge-response bullshit dance, "just say no", "tell a teacher", "just walk away", and so forth and so on - YOU know it's a lie, THEY know it's a lie, but if you do something else, something radical, like be HONEST with them, they begin to see you as something beyond the faceless, nameless pack of "adults" which push them around, lie to them and try to run their lives for them...

It's an assertion of both their, and your, individuality, they often don't really want an answer so much as the assurance that the answers are there for the asking, when they are ready for them.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:28 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
they often don't really want an answer so much as the assurance that the answers are there for the asking, when they are ready for them.

Another excellent ob.

We need to write a FF/RWED book on how to raise children correctly & with the respect due them as sentient beings....

The laughing Chrisisall

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