Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops by canttakesky

Yes, on the pretext of "overqualification."

You'd have never made it as a cop, Anthony.

These are the people who are supposed to solve our crimes.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 6:48 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Anti-cop articles are popular with the masses - obvious Occupy reasons, makes sense to publish them when they surface. But one need only look to Wall Street to see that high IQ does not equate with high moral or ethical character. Looks like at 104 they are just above average according to the article - so "smarter" than most of the populace and scoring just behind high school teachers, seems about right - and ahead of Blacks though... dang, these IQ rankings will get you into all kinds of trouble!

"Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the United States have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being lower— and that of the Asian American population being higher— than that of the European-American population."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

So only Asian cops from now on? The only lack of intelligence is in using these kinds of rankings in the first place.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:06 AM

Wow. That was a red herring and a straw man. Absolutely no one here was suggesting a limit one way or another on IQ for qualification, let alone focusing on one race for recruitment.

By the way, I know some Asians who would be pretty offended by this stereotype - especially the part where intelligence = untrustworthy, sinister, and evil.

Maybe let's not talk about race in terms of IQ, since all the IQ tests are skewed towards cultural inclinations and background, mmmkay?

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
... high IQ does not equate with high moral or ethical character.

Very true. But it would be nice to get BOTH smart and moral people in positions of crime-solving. Meaning, it would be nice if they didn't screen out SMART, and just screen out EVIL.

Quote:
Looks like at 104 they are just above average according to the article - so "smarter" than most of the populace and scoring just behind high school teachers,

Actually, 104 is NOT smarter than most of the populace. Average is 100, give or take 15 points. Anything from 85 to 115 is smack right in the middle AVERAGE. (For the statistically literate, mean is 100, 15 is the standard deviation.)

Quote:
So only Asian cops from now on?

No one is arguing to discriminate against average intelligence either. How about they NOT discriminate on intelligence at all (provided they can do their jobs)?

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 7:55 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Wow. That was a red herring and a straw man. Absolutely no one here was suggesting a limit one way or another on IQ for qualification, let alone focusing on one race for recruitment.

By the way, I know some Asians who would be pretty offended by this stereotype - especially the part where intelligence = untrustworthy, sinister, and evil.

Maybe let's not talk about race in terms of IQ, since all the IQ tests are skewed towards cultural inclinations and background, mmmkay?

Seriously? CTS wasn't suggesting that cops are dumb? My apologies CTS if I mistook your meaning when you said, "that explains a lot doesn't it."
You don't think that article panders to the current sentiment of anti-cop? That "be happy folks, cops are dumb, and here's the proof..." I think you're more perceptive than that.
I quoted wikipedia to illustrate how perilous it is to use IQ ratings for anything - if that upsets you write to Jimmy Wales. I know some Blacks and Whites that would be offended by the inference as well made by the wiki link. That's why I said, "the mistake is to use IQ rankings in the first place..." maybe in your hurry to be contentious you missed that part?

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 8:07 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
... high IQ does not equate with high moral or ethical character.
Very true. But it would be nice to get BOTH smart and moral people in positions of crime-solving. Meaning, it would be nice if they didn't screen out SMART, and just screen out EVIL.

Quote:
Looks like at 104 they are just above average according to the article - so "smarter" than most of the populace and scoring just behind high school teachers,
Actually, 104 is NOT smarter than most of the populace. Average is 100, give or take 15 points. Anything from 85 to 115 is smack right in the middle AVERAGE. (For the statistically literate, mean is 100, 15 is the standard deviation.)

Quote:
So only Asian cops from now on?
No one is arguing to discriminate against average intelligence either. How about they NOT discriminate on intelligence at all (provided they can do their jobs)?

I quoted the article you cited, it says "above average" so I went with that. I am in full support of an Evil filter.
Again, I was just following the IQ logic from the article and those that posted and using wiki's findings to come to a - HOPEFULLY OBVIOUSLY ERRONEOUS conclusion of an all Asian police squad to illustrate my contention that using IQ rankings is a very bad idea.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 8:23 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Gansta Govt is terrified of its employees who figure out 99% of what govt does is illegal.

The courts have barred all Amerikans from having high I.Q.s, and every day require All Amerikans to consume poisons that lower I.Q. by 30 points.

The 100-million Amerikans who refused to comply with this law were executed and turned into Solent Green cosmetic products for resale.

DOH!!!

Fox News made in Commie China: google Deng Wen Di Murdoch

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 9:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
My apologies CTS if I mistook your meaning when you said, "that explains a lot doesn't it."

No, you read me right. I was suggesting that cops aren't the brightest bulbs in the light bulb box. Cause ya know, we just found out they prevent the brightest bulbs from entering the force.

But, my observation that preventing SMART people from joining is detrimental doesn't mean I want to prevent DUMB people from joining (as in all Asian police force, assuming for argument's sake Asians are smarter).

So it was still a strawman.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 10:50 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

These smart cop vs dumb cop lawsuits pop up every year. Always the same verdict.

Quote:
"Dumb cops, dumb cops, whatcha gonna do, whatcha going to do with a low IQ?" (theme song from COPS TV)
-Jay Leno (comedic Italian-American, motorhead collector, biker gangster, and rider of a 266MPH street-legal jet-engined All-American sportbike), NBC TV, Tonight Show

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 2:39 PM

As I've said elsewhere, I don't read articles. I mostly rely on my own pure jackassery to blunder through a conversation.

Again, YOU accused people of putting a limit on IQ qualifications for cops, and suggested that we'd only have Asian cops if the nonexistent person saying that had their way.

None of us were saying anything like that.

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Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:16 PM

FREMDFIRMA

While I've no evidence in hand either way, my personal suspicion is that whatever "IQ" test said department was giving was prolly loaded in favor of obediance more than intelligence, but either way there's a second cause folk don't look at, and this is the factor that smarter cops tend to eventually commit suicide.

Whether that be cause they can't stomach what they're ordered to do, see their work as futile, or seeing the ugly part of humanity up close every day breaks them mentally is individual, but as a rule the smarter ones are the ones that suffer worst for it - not justifying it mind you, just saying there's an unspoken reason for that kinda thing.

Myself I could care less how smart my gaurds are, Louis for example isn't exactly nobel prize material, but you give him time enough to think something over he can surprise you - and each to their own talents, since the job Louis does is terminally freakin boring, and would drive a "smarter" guard to distraction or cause them to get lazy and inattentive, whereas he sees it as an opportunity to get off the merry go round of a world that moves too fast for him most of the time.

I also rather dislike the term "overqualified" since it's just a bullshit catchphrase and mostly an excuse used either to avoid paying a fair rate, or because they think that the desperate bastard they've got pinned in a shitty underpaid job is gonna bail (or rather, have the ABILITY to bail) when they find something better...
For a fact I am substantially "overqualified" to secure a podunk little apartment complex you could literally spit all the way across on a good day even if it is across the street from the rough part of town - but I *like* doing so, and qualification doesn't mean as much when age and physical limitations start catching up with one.

And now I gotta go pour the drunken fools out of their cars and onto their doorsteps, iffn ya don't mind...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 4:23 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
As I've said elsewhere, I don't read articles. I mostly rely on my own pure jackassery to blunder through a conversation.

Again, YOU accused people of putting a limit on IQ qualifications for cops, and suggested that we'd only have Asian cops if the nonexistent person saying that had their way.

None of us were saying anything like that.

You get what you pay for.

And if you aren't going to read articles, yanno, please at least read my post.

I didn't accuse people of putting a limit on IQs for cops, that's what the article states, I was trying to show how wrong that is to do, that IQ (of any kind) doesn't equate to good police. Your 2 cents seemed motivated by something else... whatever the heck.

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 4:42 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Whether that be cause they can't stomach what they're ordered to do, see their work as futile, or seeing the ugly part of humanity up close every day breaks them mentally is individual, but as a rule the smarter ones are the ones that suffer worst for it - not justifying it mind you, just saying there's an unspoken reason for that kinda thing."

I pity anyone who has to deal with the public, "the ugly part of humanity up close," with the potential for extra added danger involved. And with a lot of these things it's just plain easier to look the other way. It takes a special person imho to decide to make their life harder and go through that door, make that stop. etc. Sometimes they turn out to be dickheads like Occupy.
One of my friends was a social worker in Chicago, 'make the world a better place,' not unlike a few cops or politicians I would think at first, and she burned out in less than 3 years. The endless parade of gloom, the sense of "what's the point? No matter what I do it's not enough.." weight loss, depression, just like you point out maybe you don't want someone who sees too much or questions too much for their own sake.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
"whatever "IQ" test said department was giving was prolly loaded in favor of obediance more than intelligence,"

I would say that's almost a general hiring practice, 'cuz bosses generally don't want to have someone working for them that they know is smarter and better equipped for their own job. Ego self-preservation, hire some who's not going to rock my boat, I got enough problems.

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 6:48 AM

You made me read the article, it ALSO was not proposing only higher IQ people be hired by police.

You are still the only one proposing this.

Quote:
Your 2 cents seemed motivated by something else... whatever the heck.

Also you seem to be accusing me of something. If I had any credibility, I might be bothered by this.

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 7:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I think you're misunderstanding. Pizmo said straight out:

Quote:
I was trying to show how wrong that is to do, that IQ (of any kind) doesn't equate to good police

He wasn't PROMOTING high IQ, he was using it as an example to say either kind of discrimination by IQ is wrong. He wasn't PROPOSING, he was ILLUSTRATING.

I, too, don't know what he meant by that snark; misunderstandings are frequent with the written word, so maybe he misunderstood what YOU were saying, too. Who knows...

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 10:47 AM

If that's what Pizmo was arguing, then I can agree to that.

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Sunday, January 1, 2012 8:50 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Its almost comical how easily people misunderstand each other online. My interpretation of CTS posting this was that she felt that they were intentionally hiring less intelligent people because they would presumably follow orders easier and she was saying that is what police forces want in cadettes/members. Am I correct in my evaluation of your position CTS?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, January 2, 2012 5:57 AM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
If that's what Pizmo was arguing, then I can agree to that.

I said: "So only Asian cops from now on?" with a question mark, to say if you are going to use IQ tests then this is the logical conclusion, right? Maybe my mistake was assuming this crowd would realize that that blows up the whole idea of using tests.

IQ tests of any kind are just going down a bad road. There are many kinds of intelligence, and actions and ethics may trump all of them. I have known some very *smart* people who I wouldn't trust with an old shoe lace. "What you do with your brain," I'll put that at the top.

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Monday, January 2, 2012 6:57 AM

I can agree with your whole picture, but I really think this "only Asian cops" argument is flawed. It relies on a racial stereotype, while ignoring the statistical spread of other races, the established system, regional demographics, and undermining the point about the general uselessness of IQ tests.

I would not recommend using this argument.

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Monday, January 2, 2012 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I think he used the Asian thing because of the popular notion (not completely wrong) that Asian students are "smarter" than others, which could seem that way because they have a stronger study ethic than others, among all the things you listed, and more. It's again an example...what group would YOU choose to use as an easily-visualized illustration to make the point? Taking into account all the things you mentioned has nothing to do with making a simplistic illustration people can grasp right off.

To me, saying just "only high IQ" doesn't reflect the stereotyping as visually, he wasn't in any way (as I see it) SAYING Asians are smarter, only that they're perceived as such. Were you Piz?

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Monday, January 2, 2012 8:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Its almost comical how easily people misunderstand each other online. My interpretation of CTS posting this was that she felt that they were intentionally hiring less intelligent people because they would presumably follow orders easier and she was saying that is what police forces want in cadettes/members. Am I correct in my evaluation of your position CTS?

Yes. Reading between the lines, yes. Of course, my suspicion that they are looking for less critical members of the police force cannot be proved. It is only a suspicion.

But the fact that they are intentionally hiring less intelligent cops is a fact. And whatever the real reason may be, I believe this fact hurts the quality of police work we get.

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Monday, January 2, 2012 8:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Maybe my mistake was assuming this crowd would realize that that blows up the whole idea of using tests.

You were being satirical, and we took you seriously. Sometimes satire/sarcasm goes over people's heads in forums like this. OK, I gotcha now.

Thanks for clarifying with so much patience.

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Monday, January 2, 2012 8:34 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I can agree with your whole picture, but I really think this "only Asian cops" argument is flawed. It relies on a racial stereotype, while ignoring the statistical spread of other races, the established system, regional demographics, and undermining the point about the general uselessness of IQ tests.

I would not recommend using this argument.

You still aren't getting it. So be it. You may find the key to unlock it in this clip:

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Monday, January 2, 2012 10:18 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Byte a chara, Pismo was being sarcastic.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, January 3, 2012 6:03 AM

That's... Not sarcasm, that's reductio ad absurdum used for satire. It's STILL not a good argument.

Pizmo, I can't see your video, should I just assume it was insulting my intelligence and save us all time and walk off in a huff?

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Tuesday, January 3, 2012 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...that's reductio ad absurdum used for satire.

Ah, thank you. I couldn't think of the formal name for it.

I think for the purposes of this forum, "sarcasm" or "satire" is close enough to get what he was attempting.

Quote:
Pizmo, I can't see your video, should I just assume it was insulting my intelligence and save us all time and walk off in a huff?

It was the "She's a witch" scene from Monty Python.

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Tuesday, January 3, 2012 10:58 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...that's reductio ad absurdum used for satire.
Ah, thank you. I couldn't think of the formal name for it.

I think for the purposes of this forum, "sarcasm" or "satire" is close enough to get what he was attempting.

Quote:
Pizmo, I can't see your video, should I just assume it was insulting my intelligence and save us all time and walk off in a huff?
It was the "She's a witch" scene from Monty Python.

Whoa! Considering how this thread has gone...I wasn't implying any of you are witches... just so we're at least clear on that.

Yeah Byte, I was definitely taking at a shot at your logic train - I hoped MP would make it for me and make it with good humor, unlike, "You ENABLE evil!" "I'm done with you!"

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Tuesday, January 3, 2012 11:07 AM

I don't see how either of those have anything to do with the current conversation. Also, I don't understand how calling out logical fallacies makes me illogical. Anal retentive, maybe.

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Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:10 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Fascinating how this has devolved into a personal, shall we say "battle", on Byte's part. Byte, I don't think Pizmo was attacking you or anything, and I think you're taking far too seriously his use of Asians as representing high IQ--which, certainly, is a stereotype, but as such fulfills its purpose in this instance, in my opinion. Coming in after the fact and reading down, it's like this is a non-issue "mountain". Just my opinion, I guess I wish you didn't take it so personally. I'm sorry you do.

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Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:22 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Niki, please keep posting here.

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Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:39 PM

Interesting to me that people think this is a battle. Pizmo seems to think I'm carrying a grudge for something I said when I was frustrated with his optimism.

Satire or not, it's a logical fallacy. I call out logical fallacies. It's something I do.

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Wednesday, January 4, 2012 1:49 PM

I don't think there is a battle here. What Pizmo said was satire AND a logical fallacy. Byte called it cause it's what she does. I think Pizmo's ok with that, taking a good-humored jab at the funnies of logic.

We're cool. :)

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Wednesday, January 4, 2012 2:38 PM