REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Interesting numbers

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, February 11, 2012 08:57
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Friday, February 10, 2012 8:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important





Hello,

I have no means of verifying this, but there's an interesting cost-benefit question to be answered.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner



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Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:10 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


From looking at other reports, the 2% positive is about right. I've seen reports of 2.5% positive and 2% refusing the test.

As to the cost, and rolling up several articles...

It appears that the test is required yearly for anyone applying for one type of assistance, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families. There are generally 50,000-60,000 people in the program at any time, and the tests cost $30 to $42, depending on whose report you read. So the annual cost of testing is $1.5 million to $2.5 million.

The benefits in question max out at about $3,600 a year, so if 4.5% of applicants fail the test or refuse the test, then that's, say, 2,700 folks max, and annual savings of $9.7 million. Or course this is predicated on maximum amounts of benefits and applicants.

So the figures on the chart seem pretty bogus to me, especially the one relating to the cost of testing.

Now, a lot of reports say that the state is losing money on the testing, but they don't provide much in the way of calculations. There's probably some complete info out there, but I haven't seen it yet.

None of this changes the fact that the testing is probably a bad idea overall.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/31/us-florida-welfare-drugs-idU
STRE74U6W320110531


In continuing to investigate, I learned that testing must be done to qualify, and also done periodically.

I also learned that a single benefit may require multiple testing. Possibly two parents, and if they fail, a test for a guardian of some description to manage the benefit for the children.

Presumably, people who do not qualify for the program are still tested when they apply, so they may not be included in the 50-60k of enrolled participants.

It's hard for me to get any good figures on just how many tests were conducted.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


http://www2.tbo.com/news/politics/2011/aug/24/3/welfare-drug-testing-y
ields-2-percent-positive-res-ar-252458
/

Hello,

This article reveals where the odd 178 million figure came from. Someone seems to be pulling numbers from articles and not paying attention to what those numbers mean.

178 million is the cost of the welfare program for 12 months, not the cost of testing.

Also important to note is that any 12 month figure is an estimate, since testing has not been going on for 12 months yet from what I have read.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


And don't forget the figure you'll never see: the number of folks who don't even bother to apply, because they like to smoke a joint on Saturday night, and know they'd fail the test.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
And don't forget the figure you'll never see: the number of folks who don't even bother to apply, because they like to smoke a joint on Saturday night, and know they'd fail the test.

"Keep the Shiny side up"



Hello,

That's easy to determine based on the dip of applicants following the new rule. We can presume any statistical dip is due to people who did not believe they'd qualify under new rules.

However, I am dismayed that recreational users will be negatively impacted. I wish marijuana (sp?) was not illegal in this country.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 11, 2012 6:07 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm still curious as to why this standard is only applied to one group. I mean, if the idea is that the state doesn't unintentionally fund or support someone's illegal drug habit, shouldn't drug testing be mandatory for EVERYONE who gets any government funding whatsoever? Hospital employees in places that take Medicare/Medicaid money should be tested. Airline pilots who work for airlines that take any government money, police officers, legislators, all professors, teachers, and coaches who work for any institution that gets public-sector money, bank employees for any bank or lending institution that is FDIC insured or that got even a penny of bank bailout money, all military personnel and private contractors, every employee at Boeing, Grumman, Lockheed Martin, etc.

Hey, if you're worried about illegal drugs, you're worried about ALL illegal drugs in ALL people, right? And there are sectors of the public that are more likely to buy and use illegal drugs than welfare recipients.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 11, 2012 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm still curious as to why this standard is only applied to one group. I mean, if the idea is that the state doesn't unintentionally fund or support someone's illegal drug habit, shouldn't drug testing be mandatory for EVERYONE who gets any government funding whatsoever? Hospital employees in places that take Medicare/Medicaid money should be tested. Airline pilots who work for airlines that take any government money, police officers, legislators, all professors, teachers, and coaches who work for any institution that gets public-sector money, bank employees for any bank or lending institution that is FDIC insured or that got even a penny of bank bailout money, all military personnel and private contractors, every employee at Boeing, Grumman, Lockheed Martin, etc.

Hey, if you're worried about illegal drugs, you're worried about ALL illegal drugs in ALL people, right? And there are sectors of the public that are more likely to buy and use illegal drugs than welfare recipients.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



Hello,

I would start with all politicians of any stripe.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Saturday, February 11, 2012 6:53 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I'll drink to that!

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Saturday, February 11, 2012 7:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mike, you're going backwards (and I'll bet you know it ). We've already discussed this one, remember? And how wonderfully it was used to make the legislator who was proposing it back off?
Quote:

A Republican member of the Indiana General Assembly withdrew his bill to create a pilot program for drug testing welfare applicants Friday after one of his Democratic colleagues amended the measure to require drug testing for lawmakers.

"There was an amendment offered today that required drug testing for legislators as well and it passed, which led me to have to then withdraw the bill," said Rep. Jud McMillin (R-Brookville), sponsor of the original welfare drug testing bill.

But that they could have been on top of this in the other states where the righties (it's ALWAYS the Republicans) have managed to pass this stupid law. It's nothing but an attack on the poor, who doesn't know that already? The same as "voter ID", all the disgusting anti-abortion laws and all the other things they got together to pass while they had the chance.

The percentage of those who failed is a perfect example of how these supposed "fiscally conservative" idiots end up wasting money to pursue their social agendas.



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Saturday, February 11, 2012 8:57 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Mike, you're going backwards (and I'll bet you know it ). We've already discussed this one, remember? And how wonderfully it was used to make the legislator who was proposing it back off?
Quote:

A Republican member of the Indiana General Assembly withdrew his bill to create a pilot program for drug testing welfare applicants Friday after one of his Democratic colleagues amended the measure to require drug testing for lawmakers.

"There was an amendment offered today that required drug testing for legislators as well and it passed, which led me to have to then withdraw the bill," said Rep. Jud McMillin (R-Brookville), sponsor of the original welfare drug testing bill.

But that they could have been on top of this in the other states where the righties (it's ALWAYS the Republicans) have managed to pass this stupid law. It's nothing but an attack on the poor, who doesn't know that already? The same as "voter ID", all the disgusting anti-abortion laws and all the other things they got together to pass while they had the chance.

The percentage of those who failed is a perfect example of how these supposed "fiscally conservative" idiots end up wasting money to pursue their social agendas.




It needs to be an amendment every time this idiocy comes up.

Also, the amendment to an abortion bill put forth in Oklahoma needs to be added to every anti-abortion bill that comes up.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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