REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Oklahoma follows Mississippi

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, February 20, 2012 15:12
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Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here comes another "personhood" bill:
Quote:

Senate Bill 1433 has Oklahomans choosing sides. The measure, which states that life starts at conception, passed a committee this week with a 5-2 vote. Sen. Constance Johnson says, “That to me is the greatest intrusion of government yet in the State of Oklahoma into people’s private lives.”
.....
Bill 1433 states all unborn children should have protected interests in life, health and well-being.

However, critics say it could impact families who use in-vitro fertilization, women who have miscarriages or those who take birth control.
.....
Although Senate Bill 1433 made it out of its committee, it will have several more rounds of votes before it is either killed or made law. http://www.kfor.com/news/local/kfor-controversial-bill-draws-national-
attention-20120212,0,1222083.story?hpt=po_bn6

Heeeere we go again...!

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

...all unborn children should have protected interests in life, health and well-being.



How is this really an issue? There's already case law which clearly shows that the unborn can be viewed by the courts as a person , as in the case of a homicide of the mother.

( See Scott Peterson )


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You're not on your game today, little man.If it's already law, then why would they even bother do this? Obviously there's something more to it. Your argument fails completely.
Quote:

it could impact families who use in-vitro fertilization, women who have miscarriages or those who take birth control.
Same as the attempt in Mississippi, with the same agenda.

Way too easy.



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Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:19 AM

BYTEMITE


So do they outlaw Interuterine Devices? Because I know a whole bunch of devout mormons who have interuterine devices implanted.

And I have an aunt who had seven kids, and damaged her kidneys and bladder in the last pregnancy, and my uncle is a mormon bishop and believes he still has more children in the pre-existence.

Man, I'm just glad I'm asexual, I don't have to deal with all this nonsense.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You and me both, tho' for me it's "Man, I'm just glad I'm beyond all that, I don't have to deal with all this nonsense." For me tho', despite the fact it'll never affect me, I care about all the women who come after me! Remember, my mom had an abortion when they were illegal, it resulted in her having myriad miscarriages and only having one survive--me--by cesarian in the end. She wanted more kids, but that made it impossible. I don't ever want to see it go back to back-alley abortions for ANYONE!



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Thursday, February 16, 2012 10:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

You're not on your game today, little man.If it's already law, then why would they even bother do this? Obviously there's something more to it. Your argument fails completely.
Quote:

it could impact families who use in-vitro fertilization, women who have miscarriages or those who take birth control.
Same as the attempt in Mississippi, with the same agenda.

Way too easy.



Well, the Peterson case was in CA, as you should know, not Oklahoma.

You really didn't address the issue, but thanks for acknowledging that I'm on my game on other days.

As for the speculation / opinion about what the law COULD impact... when I read stuff like that, I always offer up the flip side, as that could be equally true as well. " It could NOT impact families, miscarriages, birth control, etc... ".


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:49 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Byte, I bet those Mormons you know don't know how an IUD works, I only learnt what it does recently.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:58 AM

BYTEMITE


That's my only explanation as well.

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:57 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

...all unborn children should have protected interests in life, health and well-being.



How is this really an issue? There's already case law which clearly shows that the unborn can be viewed by the courts as a person , as in the case of a homicide of the mother.

( See Scott Peterson )


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

The law was definitely showing schitzophrenia in this case.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:20 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Now that I know how they work I wouldn't choose them as my method.

My plan is no kids period though, so I'm getting "fixed" as soon as the need arises.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 16, 2012 5:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Much as I hate the huff-n-puff, this tidbit shows even more how blatant the agenda here is...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/16/contraception-hearing-house-d
emocrats-walk-out_n_1281730.html

Quote:

WASHINGTON -- Three Democrats walked out of a House Oversight and Government Reform hearing on religious liberty and the birth control rule on Thursday to protest Chairman Darrell Issa's (R-Calif.) refusal to allow a progressive woman to testify in favor of the Obama administration's contraception rule. The morning panel at the hearing consisted exclusively of men from conservative religious organizations.

"What I want to know is, where are the women?" Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-N.Y.) asked Issa before walking out of the hearing after the first panel. "I look at this panel, and I don't see one single individual representing the tens of millions of women across the country who want and need insurance coverage for basic preventative health care services, including family planning. Where are the women?"

Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-D.C.), told reporters in the hallway outside the hearing that she marched out because it was being conducted like an "autocratic regime." The other members who left were Maloney and Rep. Mike Quigley (D-Ill.).

There are 10 witnesses testifying at Thursday's hearing. None of those individuals -- listed as testifying prior to hearing -- is in favor of the Obama administration's birth control rule, and few are women.



Oddball side note about IUDs - friend of mine, who is "revoltingly cute", as is her husband (seriously, they're too freakin adorable for words) decided to go that route after their second child and DESPITE that and other measures, still got knocked up again - leading me to ask snarkily "Just how much sex do you HAVE?"
Thankfully they caught on really quick and had that thing pulled before there was a problem, and they have a third horribly-cute child due any day now, in fact a day or two overdue, but babies come when they do...

I told her she's now my mistress of minions, since her fertility seems to be outrageous in degree, and posited that we invite world leaders to dinner with her family and once their minds and wills have been crushed by the power of cuteness proximity - make suggestions.

Anyhows, there's gonna be a new Alice in the world, in very short order.
Every child born is proof that the gods have not forsaken us yet - but it's our responsibility to make the world a place worth growing up in.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, February 17, 2012 3:42 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Left out the best part.

Quote:

Sen. Johnson says the “Personhood Bill” is imbalanced because it doesn’t include a male's role in conception.

She decided to write an Amendment, which has drawn as much controversy as the original bill.

“The Amendment says, ‘Any action in which a man deposits his sperm anywhere other than a woman’s vagina would be considered a violation of the Personhood statute,” Sen. Johnson says.



That'll show the wankers.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 17, 2012 3:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Left out the best part.

Quote:



“The Amendment says, ‘Any action in which a man deposits his sperm anywhere other than a woman’s vagina would be considered a violation of the Personhood statute,” Sen. Johnson says.






Wow... our tax dollars at work.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 17, 2012 4:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Wow... our tax dollars at work.



My exact thought about the original 'Life begins at conception' legislation.



"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, February 17, 2012 5:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen Geezer. What was that about "smaller government" again? I must have missed something....



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Friday, February 17, 2012 6:08 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Amen Geezer. What was that about "smaller government" again? I must have missed something....








Hello,

Apparently, government is so small it can crawl up inside your womb.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Wow... our tax dollars at work.



My exact thought about the original 'Life begins at conception' legislation.



"Keep the Shiny side up"



Not a fan of fellow non believer Bill Maher, but I have to give him this one..

He said that, apparently, Santorum believes that life begins at erection.

*snicker*


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, February 17, 2012 7:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Apparently, government is so small it can crawl up inside your womb
Good one, Anthony! And yeah, Rap, unfortunately that seems to be more and more where it's getting, dammit...score one more for the patriarchal society!



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Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Frem a chara, are you saying Alice is having a baby?! Is Wendy excited, since Alice is a maternal figure to her and they're close?I thought Alice didn't have much family, maybe you are friends with two Alices.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Nah, Pokey and Wammy - two old friends of mine, their choice of name is just coincidence.

Funny, I attended their wedding, in Reno, NV - along the way I managed to accidently offend every Mormon within a mile on our layover by cussing out one of my flunkies on the phone while sucking down a mug of coffee and cigarette...
But the REAL weirdness was that just as our plane landed, there was a ten minute dusting of SNOW, seriously, SNOW, in Reno - I told Pokey "Hey look, we brought Michigan with us!" meh heh heh.

We also helped em sneak out on their honeymoon night after the nuptials to go hang out in the Circus-Circus Casino, much fun was had, and Ghoster totally claimed the toy I won from their claw machine, to this day it's that kittys favorite thing.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, February 20, 2012 1:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
...score one more for the patriarchal society!



Yep. Now go fix me a sammich!




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 5:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Apparently, government is so small it can crawl up inside your womb.



More than you know.

Quote:

WASHINGTON - A Virginia bill on track to become law would require women considering an abortion to have access to images of their unborn fetus, even if that means the doctor would have to perform the ultrasound from within the womb.

Virginia House Bill 462, and a similar bill in the state Senate, would require doctors to perform a fetal ultrasound, which the bill says should be made a standard practice, include the dimensions of the fetus and accurately portray its external features and internal organs, if possible.

Pro-choice groups criticize the legislation for requiring a "transvaginal ultrasound" in most cases, while supporters of the bill believe the information it garners is essential for women deciding whether to have an abortion.



http://www.wtop.com/?nid=120&sid=2752666


"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's really old, Geezer, we had a good rant on that one, the first state that did it! To stick something up a woman is just beyond belief, and shows the pro-lifers (ANTI-women-ers, in my opinion) will go to any lengths to try and "discourage" women from having abortions. It's all incredible bullshit, and these "laws" never should have seen the light of day, in any kind of intelligent society! The only laws THEY want are those that force people to DO what they want!
Quote:

Many bloggers and commentators have expressed outrage over the decision by Virginia to require ultrasound examination, possibly transvaginal ultrasound, prior to women obtaining an abortion. From Bill Maher to Dahlia Lithwick people are outraged and have even suggested that it should be considered rape to force women to undergo vaginal examination by ultrasound prior to receiving abortion. Worse, it's clear from statements like this one by delegate Todd Gilbert, that there isn't a medical concern related to this intervention. It's simply designed to humiliate women and interfere with the doctor patient relationship with exclusively anti-abortion motivations:
Quote:

"the vast majority of these cases [abortion] are matters of lifestyle convenience." And, ??"We think in matters of lifestyle convenience and in other matters that it is right and proper for a woman to be fully informed about what she is doing.
This just reflects how stupid these guys are, because anyone with half a brain could come up superficially plausible defense of the statute from grounds of medical safety. They're just too brainless to do so and clearly are just trying to interfere with women and their doctors as they try to make a difficult decision.

So, what Virginia has done has legislated a requirement for an unnecessary medical procedure, unsupported by any professional medical association, on a specific subpopulation of women. Given the history of forced sterilization in Virginia, you'd think they'd be more sensitive on this issue. This is the state where Buck v Bell brought the issue of forced medical procedures to light.

This statute cannot, therefore, stand on either medical ethical or constitutional grounds. The state legislature can not force me or any other physician to perform an unnecessary, and therefore unethical, medical procedure. The state legislature can not pick on a subpopulation of citizens and force them to receive an unnecessary medical procedure.

I don't think this law will stand, but it once again will require a legal fight, waste of time and resources, and all of this once again in a effort by governmental busybodies to interfere in women's health decisions in a punitive fashion. The Republicans need to watch out. This is just another indication of a the size of the assault on women's reproductive rights, and if they keep pushing, they're going to see what a mistake it is to piss off 51% of the population.

**Update: I also noticed from Lithwick's article Virginia has enacted a personhood law saying life begins at conception. More idiocy. This is like Indiana legislating the value of pi = 3. It is unscientific and illogical. Life does not begin. It is continuous. There is no dead state between parents and offspring. Sperm are alive, eggs are alive, the fusion of the two is alive. Instead they are legislating what constitutes life that is important, or more likely "ensouled". As a fundamentally philosophic/religious and ultimately arbitrary point, government has no business legislating such a thing. But legislating that life has a "beginning" is biologically ignorant. http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/02/forcing_doctors_to_perform_u
nn.php
]





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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:45 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Virginia is far from the first...I think it was Texas' law we first decried, from back early last year:
Quote:

Texas implements forced ultrasound abortion law

The bullying of women and choice continues with more anti abortion legislation. Texas has become the first state to have the strictest of laws regarding ultrasounds before abortion.

On hold since October of 2011 while it cleared legal hurdles, the sonogram law was upheld by U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks recently and has already gone into effect. While forced to allow the law, Judge Sparks theorizes the law violates the First Amendment rights of physicians.

Doctors had sued to block the law citing that the law forces them to perform a procedure that is not medically necessary or that women don’t wish to have.

Texas Department of State Health Services has posted guidelines for abortion providers. Any abortion providers that fail to comply with the new guidelines face penalties of up to $1,000 per violation per day. The providers will be subject to inspections to insure the new rules are followed. Doctors who fail to comply with the law could lose their medical license, be charged with a misdemeanor and face fines of up to $10,000.

Sadly, the biggest toll will be on the women themselves.

The new guidelines are:

- At least 24 hours before performing an abortion, doctors must show the woman the sonogram image. The patient has the option of looking away from the screen.
- While showing the sonogram image the doctor must describe to the patient the fetuses features and stages of development.
- Doctors must also play the fetal heartbeat aloud to the patient.

I believe that one was blocked eventually, as was the Oklahoma one:
Quote:

The most extreme ultrasound restriction in the country, the law prohibits a woman from getting an abortion unless she first has an ultrasound, is shown the ultrasound image and listens to her doctor describe the image in detail.
The Texas law was just upheld a few days ago, by the way (tho' it's still in litigation):
Quote:

January 10, 2012: The 5th U.S. Circuit Court Of Appeals is totally down with forcing doctors to tell women needless and harmful lies about consequences of abortion that don’t exist and have not been scientifically proven. They’ve ruled that Texas can enforce its forced trans-vaginal sonogram bill while it’s being challenged in court. (A similar law is being challenged in Oklahoma, but that state has not been allowed to enforce it while it winds its way through the court system.)
They were at it way back in early 2009; this is just one more step.
Quote:

February 13, 2009 12:58 PM
Antiabortion Fanatics' New Invasive Attack: The Forced Ultrasound

You have to give members of the religious right credit for one thing: No matter how resoundingly voters whack them into oblivion, they come right back fighting. To clarify, I'm not talking about average, conservative, pro-life voters. I'm talking about fanatics and activists.

Exhibit A:

"LINCOLN, Neb. (AP)--Abortion foes have a new tactic: The hope that women can't look away.

Lawmakers in 11 states are considering bills that would offer or require ultrasounds before a woman gets an abortion. The most stringent are proposed laws in Nebraska, Indiana and Texas, which would require a doctor show the ultrasound image of the fetus to the woman, despite legal challenges to a similar measure in Oklahoma.

A similar bill was proposed in Wyoming but it was defeated in a state House committee before reaching the floor."

And on and on and on.

With regard to this most recent Virginia one:
Quote:

Many women are upset because by most definitions, forcing a woman to have something put inside her vagina against her will and for no reason is, uh, rape. But Republicans state legislators don't see what the fuss is about. After all, those sluts already consented to be penetrated— when they got pregnant. Are you fucking kidding me?
He's not kidding;
Quote:

Slate's Dahlia Litwick unloads on SB484, explaining that lawmakers behind the legislation don't see what the big fucking deal is with forcing women to be penetrated by doctor as a prerequisite for pregnancy termination. After all, they consented to have sex, right? And isn't consenting to have sex once akin to consenting to have whatthefuckever put into your vagina? That's a jaw-droppingly insensitive and dangerous statement, but more than one Virginia delegate has actually said something to that effect.

Delegate Kathy J. Byron, for example, said "if we want to talk about invasiveness, there's nothing more invasive than the procedure that she is about to have." As Litwick points out, reading between the lines leads us to believe that Byron thinks that abortion involves inserting things into a woman's vagina and a woman is consenting to an abortion, she must therefore be consenting to have a doctor put any old thing into her vagina. An ultrasound wand. A Wii controller. A stethoscope!

During the floor debate on Tuesday, Del. C. Todd Gilbert announced that "in the vast majority of these cases, these [abortions] are matters of lifestyle convenience." Virginia Democrat Del. David Englin, who opposes the bill, has said Gilbert's statement "is in line with previous Republican comments on the issue," recalling one conversation with a GOP lawmaker who told him that women had already made the decision to be "vaginally penetrated when they got pregnant."Oh, man, I could go on all DAY, I'm so sickened by this. It's a new low in women's rights to their own bodies; these maniacs go too far!

Okay, I'll shut up now. :o(



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Monday, February 20, 2012 3:12 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My only problem with these laws is the forced vaginal ultrasound part, that's too intrusive because forced anything up you is rapesque.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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