REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Friess apologizes for birth control comment

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 07:29
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Monday, February 20, 2012 3:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
... I still don't get it. How does aspirin have to do with sex? And how does it have to do with keeping your legs closed? Oh well. Not only is it not humorous, it doesn't make sense.

Good point about drinks Byte.

Frem, its good for Wendy to know what to look out for for when she starts dating, she's newly grown so that could come anytime now, its good for her to be prepared.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



No offense, meant, Riona, but are you possibly a Vulcan ?

Take an aspirin, place it between your knees, and hold it there. Now, try to think of having sex, keeping the aspirin in that position.

Yes, it's meant as a joke. ( humor is subjective )

My, you ARE precious.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:02 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


"Its not logical" said in deep Spock voice. Okay I guess I sort of get it now, but why not put something else between your legs to hold them closed, aspirins are itty bitty tiny. ... Oh well.

:)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

A smaller object presumably allows less clearance in the vice.

Though it IS possible to have sex in that position.

Conservatives need better porn.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
"Its not logical" said in deep Spock voice. Okay I guess I sort of get it now, but why not put something else between your legs to hold them closed, aspirins are itty bitty tiny. ... Oh well.

:)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



I guess that's part of the 'joke', Ri. BECAUSE they're so small, ( and cheap ) it takes a fair amount of effort and concentration to keep on 'tween one's knees. Merely speculation, never thought to try it myself.

Now, not exactly 'fascinating', but you get the idea.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think what Frem meant Niki is that there are people out there who seem to care about animals more than people, if they see a dog on the street they take it in, find a home for it, feed it, pet it, but if they see a man on the street they don't care. Lots of people seem more interested in giving to animal causes than giving to human causes. I think that's what Frem meant.


In part, yes - plus there's the way we administrate the death penalty, and what with our railroad "Justice" system I don't have any confidence that the folks being executed are actually guilty of the crime, which makes it all the worse cause you can't undo it, you can let a person proved innocent out of slam, expunge their records, pay restitution, which ain't enough but it's something...

But you take their life, you can't give it back.
Quote:

“Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf


Of course, the Forever-Felony-Mark-Of-Doom ain't much better, but till people in this country wake up and start thinking restorative justice instead of retributive, progress on that front is slow going.

Mostly though, I was speaking of the notion of deliberately condemning a child to an existence so horrible that for many of them death is the only true escape they'll ever have - which may sound harsh, but is life really so precious that it must be preserved when all it contains is suffering ?

Frankly I see most elective abortions as mercy kills, and I am okay with that, barely, although I'd prefer it never come TO that pass, something very preventable with access and availability of contraception, as well as proper sexual education, two things these jackasses ALSO stand in the way of, making the whole issue a deliberate, intentional, malicious set-up in my eyes, for the reasons detailed above.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:24 PM

BYTEMITE


I had pretty much the same problem understanding the joke. Why an aspirin, and why not doggy style?

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:42 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Though it IS possible to have sex in that position.


Oh I could tell some stories....
Quote:

Conservatives need better porn.

Well, Sturgeons Law applies to prettymuch everything, you know.

That said, I think the average "Conservative" would benefit greatly in both a psychological and conceptual sense from a close encounter with a quaalude, seriously.
That and gettin laid, not just a bit of nookie, I mean flat out, downright, furniture breakin, wall-bouncing, oh-my-god, carpet burn inducing, slam-bang-wham, foundation shakin, glorious SEX.



Maybe it's time to put the PARTY back in the Republican Party, then maybe they wouldn't be so damn uptight.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I had pretty much the same problem understanding the joke. Why an aspirin, and why not doggy style?





You're not suppose to think like THAT!!

Geeze!


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:26 PM

OONJERAH



Everyone under 18 should leave the room now.


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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:32 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My personal opinion is that RWED should be a grown and up zone, no under 18s, there is no way to enforce that of course, RiverTam1 comes in here sometimes but not often, so mainly it is functionally an over 18 zone.

I think its funny that its called "doggy style" because of the y, not dog but doggy. But yeah, there are ways to circumnavigate an aspirin.

Do I want to know what a quaalude is?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:


Do I want to know what a quaalude is?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



Hello,

It's one of those medicines for people who aren't sick.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 6:58 PM

OONJERAH


Quote MagonsDaughter: "His views, beliefs, actions are all relevant to his position as potential PotUS,
hence why everyone bleats on and on about every comment Obama has ever made about anything.

"I'm flummoxed by your political system, where the minutae of someone's life and beliefs are so microexamined and exposed.
I don't know why presidents discuss their beliefs on a whole range of issues, rather than what their proposed policies will be.
But that seems to be your system."


It is because we have no Royal Family,
thus we are (obsessively, subconsciously, one-uppedly) jealous of Great Britain.
Look how we went on about Lady Di.

Edit: We treat Hollywood celebrities much the same.

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Monday, February 20, 2012 7:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:


Do I want to know what a quaalude is?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



Hello,

It's one of those medicines for people who aren't sick.





The kind of thing they used to call "recreational drugs." They probably had some kind of legitimate purpose at some point, but like Oxycontin, they got overused and over-abused.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quaalude (or Lude) = "downer" It's a sedative, originally used for insomnia, but of course whatever a drug is created for, if it makes you feel good, it becomes a recreational drug! It's actually called Methaqualone; quaalude or 'lude' are the street names.

Frem, you might find it interesting that Occupy just had a nationwide protest of prisons, wrongful imprisonment, prison conditions, etc.



OccupyMarin protested at Q (San Quentin), which is just outside town, but I didn't get the e-mail until too late to participate.



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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Do I want to know what a quaalude is?


Quote:

Quaaludes or methaqualone was a prescription drug used in the treatment of anxiety, called an anxiolytic, or to promote sleep. Methaqualone was a central nervous system depressant, and is comparable to barbiturates. When it was used in prescribed doses, it tended to promote relaxation, sleepiness, and for some, a feeling of euphoria.

This euphoric feeling was one of the reasons that quaaludes, also known by their street name of “ludes,” began to be used as a recreational drug. They were a popular drug for abuse during much of the 1970s, though they became increasingly more difficult to find as both the US and Britain began to tighten control around their use and dispensation. Concern over the abuse of quaaludes become so high that that drugs were withdrawn from the market in the US in 1984. Methaqualone is now considered a Schedule I drug, and is defined as having no legitimate use because of its high risk of addiction. Much of Europe has also banned the drug, but in certain countries, like South Africa it is becoming increasingly popular as a recreational drug.


Although not mentioned here it also tends to increase sex-drive somewhat, and although a narcotic the addiction factor is primarily-initially psychological because of the euphoria effect which is quite potent.

I DO wonder if a smaller doseage might have beneficial psychological effects in that it might enable some people to at least temporarily put aside their hatred and intolerance long enough to find their own personhood through all the social programming and psychological damage which lead them to be that way.

Funny side note to this - that euphoria effect is exactly why many of the docs I deal with tend to issue percocet to me while still in the waiting room, not only cause not being in pain tends to radically change my personality for the better, the euphoria tends to remove the possibility of violence from the equation.
That and for many of em it's the least they can do to give some relief when they dare not actually prescribe anything cause the DEA would use it as an excuse to harrass them given their race/ancestry - despite being second generation american, being of arabic descent brings all kinds of hassle down on my primary physician you see...
HE at least, isn't afraid imma strangle him cause he knows WHY some medical personnel have been roughed up by me and at least in principle agrees with it, they violated their oaths, something very important to him.

ETA: Yes, I saw that Niki - and am gratified, but I still think they're spinning their wheels, I acknowledge that they care, that they want things to change, but I think they should change their tactics to something more effective, I don't mean violence mind you, but coming at them sideways in a fashion not so easy to stifle and ignore.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Well that's interesting about quaaludes, unfortunately that happens a lot, a medicine might be helpful for some people, but other people ruin everything by turning it into a street drug, rutters, and then the people who benefitted from it don't get to use it anymore. That's soooooo unfair andjust plain mean, do you think that recreational drug users might rethink their choices if they understood that their stupid choices mess stuff up for others? Probably not, but I can think wishfully.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Nah, see - half the damn allure of the things comes from the prohibition, as does the crime and violence, and so too do problems come from considering addiction as a legal problem rather than a medical one.

Legalisation is the only course that ever made any sense - somehow we failed to learn the lesson about prohibition back in the 20's, and continue to fail every day even more.

Remember, it wasn't all THAT long ago one could buy Cocaine, even Heroin, over the counter - and we didn't have NEAR the problems with the matter as now, most of which we created in our insane drive to outlaw cursed near everything and micromanage other peoples lives.

People are gonna do what they're gonna do, all prohibition does is burn up resources and freedoms in trying to prevent that which cannot be prevented.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:39 PM

OONJERAH



While booze does have its medical uses, it was always essentially a recreational drug. Thankfully.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:47 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


The older I get the more I'm coming around to that way of thinking Frem, after all what are the 20s known for, alcohol that's what, even though it was when the stuff was illegal.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I'd like to have tried coca-cola with it's original cocaine ingredient. Just to see what all the fuss was about, having never tried that type of 'coke'.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:46 AM

JONGSSTRAW


In 1972 I tried cocaine and I liked it. I liked it a lot, what's not to like?! However I knew the dangers of liking it too much so I never did it again during the next 35 years. I tried it again a few years ago when I lost my job. It was great, but I'm not about to become a criminal to support how much I would probably be doing if I had lots of money.









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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:28 AM

BYTEMITE


The only drugs I've ever taken are prescription psychiatric mediation, caffeine, and this one time I had a taste of beer when I was five.

It has cured me of the desire to ever partake in mind altering shenanigans. Though the caffeine I can't really help, because I'd spend most of my day asleep like a cat otherwise.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well said, Frem; I agree 100%. And don't get me started on our "war on drugs", which is an absolute farce. Don't YOU get started either, kiddo, or YOU'll go on forever. We all know what a joke it is, anyway, don't we?

Marijuana is safer than alcohol and doesn't cause aggression. Yet it is a Schedule ONE drug, while Morphine, Opium and Oxy are Schedule TWO drugs...and that says it all.

I never cottoned to alcohol...we didn't like one another upon meeting and the first impression has held, with a few special occasion exceptions (like when I was semi-suicidal and there isn't enough marijuana in the WORLD to blot things out. My reaction to booze is WHY I first tried marijuana. In later years we had Jim's brother living with us, a certified alcoholic, and I poured him into bed and removed the bottles enough times to be glad of my original instincts where booze is concerned.



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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:28 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm not interested in street drugs because if one has any tendency towards brain differences they usually make it worse. So they're not for me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 7:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I tried cocaine and I liked it, what's not to like ?



Well, I have no idea.

Kinda like how Mal said to YoSafBridge... " Can't miss a place you've never been ".






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 9:40 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Marijuana is safer than alcohol and doesn't cause aggression. Yet it is a Schedule ONE drug, while Morphine, Opium and Oxy are Schedule TWO drugs...and that says it all.




I've got to disagree here, having worked over the years with many, many people who have been long term habitual users of marijuana, its long term affects are pretty serious, and for many habitual users there are aggressive behaviours, particularly during withdrawal or non use periods. I've actually come to quite despise it as a drug because of the conquences I have observed.

There are no free rides. You use something on a regular that alters that way your brain works, there will be consequences.

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


My kingdom for a "no confidence" vote...sigh...tho' I'm sure we'd find a way to prostitute THAT, too, so it didn't work the way it was intended!



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Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:


Marijuana is safer than alcohol and doesn't cause aggression. Yet it is a Schedule ONE drug, while Morphine, Opium and Oxy are Schedule TWO drugs...and that says it all.




I've got to disagree here, having worked over the years with many, many people who have been long term habitual users of marijuana, its long term affects are pretty serious, and for many habitual users there are aggressive behaviours, particularly during withdrawal or non use periods. I've actually come to quite despise it as a drug because of the conquences I have observed.

There are no free rides. You use something on a regular that alters that way your brain works, there will be consequences.




Hello,

I've noticed this same aggressive behavior in people who haven't had their morning coffee.

Anything you put in your body will change you, and it's important to be aware of all the risks of any drug. Even Asprin has its litany.

But I don't believe legislating against drugs has had a net positive impact on the lives of our citizenry. Quite the contrary.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:01 AM

OONJERAH



Drugs of choice in USA include white sugar, caffeine, aspirin, nicotine & alcohol. I have used all of them and
enjoyed four of them.

White sugar is addictive and insidious; but for the most part, users under the influence do not threaten society.

Nicotine is a wonderful drug that slowly undermines the health of the user, often resulting in death. Possibly the
most addictive of drugs.

Alcohol is the king of drugs in the USA. It is mostly used socially, and for many users, the frequent outcome is
All Hell Breaks Loose! The amount of damage done by very drunk people, both physical and emotional damage, is
awesome and expensive. If any drug ever needed to be kept from its abusers, it is booze. But we love it too much.
Prohibition doesn't work, and it's not fair to the majority of drinkers, those who can "handle their liquor."

Our prejudice against marijuana makes no sense to me. At least here in CA, it's "borderline legal." Pot never
worked for me: quirk of metabolism.

I think, from observation, that the effects of pot are usually benign. But those who form a dependency on it and
abuse it, over time, they get really weird. Evidence is that weird potheads of my acquaintance were pretty weird
before they started it. I see aggressive pot users as the exception. Others who need it to relax, between
fixes can be as dangerous as a drunk driver. It's as if they use pot to curb their normal aggression, and when it
goes away, their aggression doubles. This opinion is based on the long term observation of two neighbors.

All other street drugs: No comment on their danger levels. Legalize 'em all, & may the users be held responsible.
The war on drugs is expensive and useless.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 12:44 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Waaaay off topic, but I'll respond anyway. We'll have to agree to disagree, Magons. I've had FRIENDS over the years who are regular marijuana users, and never once seen what you described unless there are other drugs at work as well.

I've smoked marijuana since I was 17 and tried booze. I stopped smoking EVERYTHING for a couple of years...had tons of trouble with the cigs, none with the dope. I stopped smoking marijuana for several other years because I couldn't afford it...missed it a bit, that's about all. I've never experienced withdrawals, nor has anyone I know. Marijuana, like ANYTHING, can be abused, and I'm guessing those of whom you speak abuse it. I only smoke a bit at night, kind of my version of the evening cocktail, but I've been doing so for...lessee, subtracting the two times I didn't use it for a while...over 40 years, daily. I THINK I'm fairly coherent, I held complex jobs all my life, and I've only been physically aggressive three or four times--at none of which times was I stoned.

I realize you don't like marijuana, but my question is: Should it be a Schedule One drug, when Morphine, Oxy, Opium and others are Schedule Two? Does that really make sense to you?? My motto is "All things in moderation" (except chocolate!). Do you really equate marijuana with booze, in how much harm it does?

I imbibe sugar, dark chocolate (LOTS!), drink ice tea all day (caffeine), smoke cigarettes and marijuana. I wonder which one will kill me first? Actually, probably my back, which is getting worse daily. Surgery in the offing. Yuck.

There are perspectives, is what I'm trying to say, and there is moderation. Mankind has ALWAYS sought out ways of escaping; some are more lethal than others. I think marijuana is less lethal than many, many of them...and Jim just told me the other day that he read marijuana smoke is less hazardous than cigarettes for those with COPD (he has emphysema, hasn't smoked in years, and asked me for some to enjoy his music with after he found this out). I find it hard to believe, but I'm going to look it up.

ETA: Damn, he's right. Just Google "Marijuana less dangerous than tobacco", a whole page comes up. First example in the list:
Quote:

Heavy marijuana smokers show less evidence
of lung injury than heavy tobacco smokers, and it may be
cannabinoids that are protecting them from developing a condition
like emphysema.

That's according to the principal investigator of a study done at
the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA).

Speaking at the third annual meeting of the International
Cannabis Research Society here, Dr. Donald Tashkin, a
pulmonologist and UCLA professor of medicine, concluded heavy
marijuana use did not cause the same degree of lung injury as
tobacco smoke.

"My own feeling is that marijuana smokers probably will not
develop emphysema as a consequence of smoking marijuana," he
said. "It may be that the THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol) in
marijuana could have different effects on inflammatory cells,
which may mediate injury in the lung."

Moreover, the phagocytes gathered from the lungs of marijuana
smokers do not have the same properties as those gathered from
the lungs of tobacco smokers.

"We have previously shown that the macrophages that are harvested
from the rinse-out of the lungs of marijuana smokers seem not to
be activated," he said. "They do not release toxic oxygen
species, either under basal conditions or under stimulated
conditions nearly to the extent that tobacco macrophages do. If
anything, basal secretion of superoxide seems to be reduced in
the marijuana smokers." http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_health1.shtml. Learn something new every day!

On the subject of aggression, there may be more to it than the marijuana alone, apparently:
Quote:

Does smoking marijuana cause aggression?

In general, after using marijuana a person experiences a sedating effect, which makes the drug less likely to cause violence in users than other substances such as alcohol and stimulants (e.g., amphetamines and cocaine).

However, sometimes when marijuana is used it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, which can result in an aggressive outburst. For most people, however, once the effects of the drug wear off, their behaviour gradually improves.

Studies show that violence can occur more often among people who use marijuana regularly, rather than those who use it occasionally or not at all. It is unclear why this is the case, but it may be because people with violent tendencies can also have a range of other psychosocial problems and are therefore more likely to use marijuana. Marijuana is also part of the illegal drug market, which may increase the chances of violence occurring in some social interactions.

Research also shows that marijuana users who commit violent acts usually have a history of violence before they start using the drug.

In addition, when people are withdrawing from marijuana they can be irritable, which can lead to abusive or aggressive behaviour. http://adai.washington.edu/marijuana/factsheets/aggression.htm defend marijuana because I believe it to be far less harmful than booze or cigs, both of which are legal, and because far too many people are in jail for its use, when others who have committed far more serious crimes aren't. Like politicians ;o)

Just noticed you wrote "MANY" habitual users. Must be different Down Under or something, given I've been in the "drug culture" all my life and never met one of them. Huh.



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Thursday, February 23, 2012 12:53 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I've had FRIENDS over the years who are regular marijuana users, and never once seen what you described unless there are other drugs at work as well.


This is what I've heard too. The traditional imagine of the burned out hippie is due to PCP abuse, from my understanding, not marijuana.

Which is a little scary when you realize PCP was the drug used by the CIA for population/mind control experiments and positive psychotropics. Their very own version of the PAX.

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've noticed this same aggressive behavior in people who haven't had their morning coffee.


*grumbles and throws stuff at Anthony*
Shaddap!

-F

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Niki, I can agree with you that marijuana shouldn't be a schedule one drug, since lots of people use it successfully for chronic pain etc. So it has uses and thus shouldn't be in the same category as meth, which has no use whatsoever, rutted up stuff, anything made out of cleaning chemicals is just plain stupid and I don't know why someone would try it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER




I've have had friends who have used for years and I used heavily for several years. I can honestly say that I do not know of one person on this planet who has used any mind altering drug for an extended period of time - and I include alcohol - who has not had some sort of impact on ones cognitive abilities as a result. Myself included.

There is dope and there is dope. Not all are equal. Not all produce the same effects. The high thc/low cannabanoid ratios are more likely to produce aggressive behaviours and/or psychotic symtpoms than high cannabanoid strains.

The days of believing that marijuana is a harmless drug are well over, although some people may suffer less side effects that others.

I believe that people should be able to use whatever mind altering drug they choose without being fearful of prosecution. I have no issue with this. As adults we need to take personal responsibility, and I agree we seem to have a strong need as a species to move outside of ordinary realities or to experience heightened states. I have no issue with this either. But I think we should also be honest and grown about the effects of using anything heavily or long term.

i do not believe it is helpful to speak of marijuana as harmless when discussing the issue of whether drugs should be decriminalised. I think it is more truthful to discuss peoples right to self determination.


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Friday, February 24, 2012 4:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


I've have had friends who have used for years and I used heavily for several years. I can honestly say that I do not know of one person on this planet who has used any mind altering drug for an extended period of time - and I include alcohol - who has not had some sort of impact on ones cognitive abilities as a result. Myself included.

There is dope and there is dope. Not all are equal. Not all produce the same effects. The high thc/low cannabanoid ratios are more likely to produce aggressive behaviours and/or psychotic symtpoms than high cannabanoid strains.

The days of believing that marijuana is a harmless drug are well over, although some people may suffer less side effects that others.

I believe that people should be able to use whatever mind altering drug they choose without being fearful of prosecution. I have no issue with this. As adults we need to take personal responsibility, and I agree we seem to have a strong need as a species to move outside of ordinary realities or to experience heightened states. I have no issue with this either. But I think we should also be honest and grown about the effects of using anything heavily or long term.

i do not believe it is helpful to speak of marijuana as harmless when discussing the issue of whether drugs should be decriminalised. I think it is more truthful to discuss peoples right to self determination.




Hello,

This is a very good post.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 10:36 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


First of all, did I EVER say marijuana was harmless? Please indicate where I did, if you would. I said it is, in my opinion, a LOT less harmful than tobacco or alcohol, both of which are legal. Your original statement was
Quote:

having worked over the years with many, many people who have been long term habitual users of marijuana, its long term affects are pretty serious, and for many habitual users there are aggressive behaviours, particularly during withdrawal or non use periods.
I disagreed because I'm a long-term, habitual user who has seen no long-term affects (nor has my husband or have my friends; I've asked). I disagreed with your statement that "for many habitual users there are aggressive behaviors" and gave myself as an example, as well as citing a scientific study.

I never addressed "heavy" use, although the article speaks of subjects using several joints a day, which in my opinion is VERY heavy use. But as to long term, I disagree. I have friends who have used marijuana daily or almost daily for as long as I have, all of whom hold good jobs and are good citizens, and none of whom are aggressive, stoned or not. I have met up with friends from my communal days who continued to smoke marijuana for whom that is also true.

My problem with your statements is that they are pretty definitive and speak in terms of "many", whereas I contrast the harm of marijuana with that of alcohol, etc., and believe it is LESS dangerous, and would have used the term "some", from my experience, observation and research.

Your wording comes across to me as if you want me to say that marijuana is bad bad bad, period. I never said it was "good", only in my opinion a better alternative to others. I take full responsibility for my use of marijuan, but I have seen no serious side effects. I've got some memory loss, I fully agree, but I'm 63 and have no more memory loss than my friends (a couple even younger) who have NEVER used marijuana and used little alcohol, as well.

Yes, there is a difference between the cannabanoid content of different kinds of marijuana, but I've smoked many, many different kinds. Choey, my friend who lives with us, experiences severe paranoia if she imbibes marijuana...she was also a long-term alcoholic, and alcohol made her aggressive. So she uses neither. I've known others who experience paranoia from marijuana; just as with any substance, each person's experiences differ, depending on their system. I've never known ANYONE to become aggressive by the use solely of marijuana, nor anyone to become aggressive or suffer other withdrawal symptoms. That's MY own experience/observation/research. Maybe the strains of marijuana you get Down Under are different than ours in California, I don't know. My experiences come from communal living--some members of which were dealers (I dealt briefly myself at the college I attended)--so we used all different kinds over time, and some friends I still have smoke products of Humboldt exclusively. Beyond that, I cannot say.

It is my belief that, whether because of personal experience or some other reason, you are extremely against marijuana, whereas I compare it to the other substances and feel it is less harmful. As I often say, moderation and perspective. I defend marijuana because of my own observations of the horrors of alcohol, and my resentment that alcohol is not only legal but advertised and used a LOT by our population, while marijuana is illegal and people are put in jail for merely possessing it. That's MY prejudice.

And yes, it is definitely more truthful to discuss people's right to self-determination. With perhaps some perspective that one's experiences aren't the be-all/end-all of an issue, so that what one expresses are only opinions. What one person states flatly as being honest and grown (up, I assume?) are opinions, not fact, as I see it. Your wording seems to me as if you're saying I'm not honest or grown up about marijuana; I believe I am. I repeat: I never said marijuana was "harmless", nor that heavy use of it is a good thing. My comparison is between marijuana and alcohol or other mind-altering substances, and my disagreement is that it is "dangerous" if used long term.

My initial statement was "Marijuana is safer than alcohol and doesn't cause aggression", that's all. You responded with the flat statement that "its long term affects are pretty serious, and for many habitual users there are aggressive behaviours". You have seen aggression in some people utilizng marijuana; I have not. Most of those who responded here have not either. I have not experienced or observed long-term affects in myself or others, certainly not "serious" ones. Perhaps we can agree that NO mind-altering substance is all "good", that there are degrees of side effects, and that we shouldn't judge others based on our own experiences.



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Friday, February 24, 2012 12:24 PM

OONJERAH



MISquoting Foster Friess: "women high on pot used Bayer aspirin as birth control back in (his) days."

Quote MagonsDaughter: "when discussing the issue of whether drugs should be decriminalised. I think it is more truthful
to discuss people's right to self determination."

I agree with MD.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Friday, February 24, 2012 1:16 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Niki, I only responded so strongly because I see the negative effects of marijuana use on a regular basis, and so I get fired up when I think that people minimise its harm. Twenty years ago, I would have said the same thing as you. Experience has taught me otherwise. That is my experience and my view. I don't wish to have it banned, in fact, I would like to see it completely decriminalised. And it is not my intent to villify people who use it, I just want there to be some honesty about the impact of smoking it.

I don't agree with you that it is less harmful than ciggies or alcohol, I just think those drugs are legal and therefore more widely used and abused. With decriminalisation or legalisation, we would see an increase in use and abuse and effects being played out on a larger section of the population. See Netherlands as an example.

I'm not just basing this in my personal experiences, there is plenty of research that outlines the harm done by marijuana to users. I guess what I would probably say is that the research is mixed and the results not particularly consistent, so that you might be able to find research that downplays the effects and I could find research that upplays them. Not particularly useful.

From my own experience then, I find marijuana to be a particularly pernicious drug, partly because it is so often touted as less harmful or harmless, but actually its side effects, particularly on the young or those who smoke from young, appear to be actually quite bad. I know that this is often further complicated by people often smoking to self medicate mental health issues such as anxiety or depression.

Anyway, I'm sorry that I offended or came across as judgemental when I'm not intending to do either. I just want people to make informed choices about what they put in their bodies.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 1:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

The important message, to my mind, is that self-determination and personal liberty are prime, even in the face of willful self-destruction. I'd no sooner criminalize taking drugs than I'd criminalize suicide- though I may have some strong advice and commentary about either course of action. I make this comparison not necessarily to equate the two, but to say that even if the drugs are guaranteed harmful, I believe it is up to the individual to decide. All I ask is that they have all information available to them, and that they be in legal, physical, and mental control of themselves.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Friday, February 24, 2012 9:54 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I don't agree with you that it is less harmful than ciggies or alcohol


Actually, *I* agree.

I too think that the risks of marijuana are understated. But I also think it's important to dispel misconceptions - in general, not for anyone in particular - and attribute long term side effects correctly.

The fried hippie stereotype is a common one I've seen. I notice I'm the only one bringing that up, so, really just kinda putting this out there.

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Friday, February 24, 2012 11:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I think that the research will consolidate in the next 10 to 20 years, and will show much more clearly the actual affects and I predict that the outcomes will be on a par with the affects or alcohol, or worse. I believe that it will be less harmful physically, but more harmful cognitively. Just my predictions.

To be clear, I'm not talking about hippies, fried or otherwise. My clients are predominantly under 40, male.


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Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:45 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Marijuana doesn't cause mental health differences, but for young people who are genetically prone it can bring it out in them. I have known two people with mental health differences who use marijuana regularly who haven't had trouble with it, but everyone else with mental health differences I've talked to who have used it have said either that it makes them struggle harder or that they didn't have as much trouble before they started smoking it. If someone is over 30 and they want to take up marijuana then I'd not really care, but when your brain is susceptible, under 30 is when mental illness usually develops if its going to, and especially if you've got a family history you should stay away from it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:17 PM

OONJERAH



Onset of schizophrenia is usually before age 30.
Similarly, Alzheimer's disease may wait til post 65.
Attention deficit disorder, those I've known just have it, born with it, I guess.
Autism and retardation, the same.
Clinical depression, Manic-depression, Obsessive compulsive disorder, don't know if they have a time frame.
Epilepsy - I'm not familiar with its cause or onset. Been told it can be acquired.
I suspect this list is less than half of the brain disorders that humans are heir to.

Support compassion and understanding of the mentally ill. Be nice to other posters.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:50 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Mental illnesses can first appear at any age, but they are more likely to appear by age 30, so if you've made it to 30 and are still neurotypical, there's a good chance you'll be okay, but of course there is also a chance that you will get something later, the odds are reduced though. Old age brain differences of course come along later by nature, since they are old age brain differences. Developmental differences and autism are usually something you're born with or which manifest early in life, the exception being when someone has a brain injury and it causes developmental differences to appear. The only exception is this disorder that appears later in childhood, very interesting thing that. Usually if someone has ADD it appears when they're little, but occasionally someone will develop it when they're in high school or even when they're grown. Lots of people with childhood ADD grow out of it when they grow up, but plenty do not and it continues and they have it as adults too, but the older a person with ADD gets the better they get at managing it and working with it, not always but often times.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 27, 2012 9:53 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think that the research will consolidate in the next 10 to 20 years, and will show much more clearly the actual affects and I predict that the outcomes will be on a par with the affects or alcohol, or worse. I believe that it will be less harmful physically, but more harmful cognitively. Just my predictions.



Virtually all studies contradict this, just FYI.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, February 27, 2012 10:09 AM

BYTEMITE


It acts on receptors in the limbic system, which are notoriously touchy, and even indirectly and obliquely effects dopamine levels.

Acute or chronic levels cannabinoids would inevitably cause permanent changes in dopamine levels. More cannabinoids leads to more released dopamine, which is dangerous for the brain, so it reacts by permanently lowering the amount of dopamine produced. This would cause someone to become more anxious, aggressive, or schizophrenic in the absence of cannabinoid or dopamine activation.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/292/3/952.full

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:40 PM

OONJERAH



See The Eden Express: A Memoir of Insanity, Mark Vonnegut, 1975

I used to try from time to time to beat the drum that mental illnesses are a "something wrong with the brain" thing.
That a schizophrenic person is no more responsible for that condition than a retarded child is for his. My efforts
always seemed a lost cause. People love to have scapegoats; mental illness is a favorite there.

Support compassion and understanding of the mentally ill.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 12:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's what I'm saying, that marijuana doesn't "cause" mental illness, but if the ingredients are there it can bring it out earlier than it would have naturally appeared, or it could be the little thing that tips the scale as far as the genetics/chemistry expressing themselves. If someone has no faulty genes and they use mk then nothing mental illnessy will happen to them. But who knows whether they have genes? Sure if your family has it then you know to steer clear, but bad genes have to come from somewhere, you could be the first person in your line to have mutated genes, not the most likely thing but always possible.

That being said people will do what they want to, its just good to be sure and tell them about these things so they can consider them when making choices about their bodies.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 27, 2012 1:06 PM

BYTEMITE


OONJERAH: This was directed at me?

Perhaps you've fallen under the misapprehension that I am in any way sane.

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Monday, February 27, 2012 7:51 PM

OONJERAH



Yeah ... you said: "Acute or chronic levels cannabinoids would inevitably cause permanent changes in dopamine levels."
Mention of The Eden Express is intended to substantiate your post.

Other comments simply express my frustration at the continuing stigma towards MIs.
I've not diagnosed you yet.



Personal responsibility is the Truth.
Self determination triumphs over reaction.

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