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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
2 American NATO troops dead in Afghanistan as locals rage at US's proper burning of Quran
Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:45 PM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — President Obama apologized...
Quote: The Afghans’ furious response to the Koran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture.
Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:50 PM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:55 PM
PIZMOBEACH
... fully loaded, safety off...
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — President Obama apologized... No shocker there. Quote: The Afghans’ furious response to the Koran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture. It's forbidden to write on the holy Quran. Yet, that's exactly what had been done, as messages were scrawled in these books, by extremists, as a means of communicating with others. So, instead of giving these 'unclean' books to the locals for proper disposal ( translate - for them to simply be taken away ) the US military destroyed them. BFD Afghan President Hamid Karzai has yet to apologize for the 2 American soldiers who were killed.
Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, So, we invaded another country and violated their laws and desecrated their culture, and they're so unhappy with us that they shot at us. No shocker there.
Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — President Obama apologized... No shocker there. Quote: The Afghans’ furious response to the Koran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture. It's forbidden to write on the holy Quran. Yet, that's exactly what had been done, as messages were scrawled in these books, by extremists, as a means of communicating with others. So, instead of giving these 'unclean' books to the locals for proper disposal ( translate - for them to simply be taken away ) the US military destroyed them. BFD Afghan President Hamid Karzai has yet to apologize for the 2 American soldiers who were killed. You're right, we shouldn't be there. I think it's time to clear the stage, sell the sets and turn off the house lights, the show is over. What do you think we should do now? Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:28 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:25 PM
Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:42 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — President Obama apologized... No shocker there. Quote: The Afghans’ furious response to the Koran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture. It's forbidden to write on the holy Quran. Yet, that's exactly what had been done, as messages were scrawled in these books, by extremists, as a means of communicating with others. So, instead of giving these 'unclean' books to the locals for proper disposal ( translate - for them to simply be taken away ) the US military destroyed them. BFD Afghan President Hamid Karzai has yet to apologize for the 2 American soldiers who were killed. You're right, we shouldn't be there. I think it's time to clear the stage, sell the sets and turn off the house lights, the show is over. What do you think we should do now? Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com] Hello, The physical, concrete costs of September 11th were probably somewhere in the vicinity of ~ 100 billion dollars. ~ 3,000 people died. ~6,000 people were injured. A very conservative estimate of the cost of War is 1.3 trillion dollars. (Actually much, much higher) In Iraq, we've got over 24k allies killed, 117k wounded, and something like 100k civilian deaths. In Afghanistan, we've got 14k allies killed, over 34k wounded. Anywhere from 14k-34k civilian deaths. If we suffered a September 11th severity attack every single year, it would cost about the same amount of money, but kill fewer people. And in fact, I don't think we'd suffer such an attack every single year. And in fact, as we learn from our mistakes, attacks of such severity will become less and less common. I say bring the boys home, batten down the hatches, and when the bad guys blow something up, make intelligent changes to security procedures. More cost effective. More life effective. And when you leave people the heck alone for a long enough period of time, they find other avenues for their efforts. If that doesn't work well over the next decade, we can always go back to war and start the mass killing all over again. There's always that fallback when we're completely out of ideas. --Anthony _______________________________________________
Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — President Obama apologized... No shocker there. Quote: The Afghans’ furious response to the Koran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture. It's forbidden to write on the holy Quran. Yet, that's exactly what had been done, as messages were scrawled in these books, by extremists, as a means of communicating with others. So, instead of giving these 'unclean' books to the locals for proper disposal ( translate - for them to simply be taken away ) the US military destroyed them. BFD Afghan President Hamid Karzai has yet to apologize for the 2 American soldiers who were killed. You're right, we shouldn't be there. I think it's time to clear the stage, sell the sets and turn off the house lights, the show is over. What do you think we should do now? Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com]
Thursday, February 23, 2012 5:24 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Some comments are so idiotic, they don't warrant a response.
Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:10 PM
Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:06 PM
Quote: KABUL, Afghanistan — Demonstrators hurled grenades at a U.S. base in northern Afghanistan, and a gun battle left two Afghans dead and seven NATO troops injured Sunday in the escalating crisis over the burning of Muslim holy books at an American airfield. More than 30 people have been killed, including four U.S. troops, in six days of unrest.
Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:31 PM
Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, There is an easy solution to the problem, and one we should have embraced already. --Anthony
Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:45 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, There is an easy solution to the problem, and one we should have embraced already. --Anthony Drop more bombs. And bigger ones. " I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "
Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: I see you've outlined your Afghani Solution. --Anthony
Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:32 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:37 AM
WISHIMAY
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Drop more bombs. And bigger ones.
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:54 AM
CAVETROLL
Monday, February 27, 2012 5:29 AM
Quote:And yet Obama doesn't feel like he should apologize to catholic organizations who he is making violate their religious beliefs.
Monday, February 27, 2012 5:36 AM
Monday, February 27, 2012 5:43 AM
Quote:Originally posted by CaveTroll: So; Outside of the US we follow their religious instructions, people die when there's a total chimp out because we're following the rules of their religion, and our president apologizes and bows towards Mecca. Inside the US we make religious organizations break their religious rules, there's a protest, the protesters are told to shut up and like it, and the president doesn't have to do anything. Got it.
Monday, February 27, 2012 7:22 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:U.S. officials said the books were mistakenly sent with a pile of trash for disposal before several Afghans identified them.
Quote:President Bill Clinton sparked controversy when he offered contrition short of a formal apology, telling Ugandan school children in 1998 that "European Americans received the fruits of the slave trade, and we were wrong in that." Republican lawmakers complained that Clinton had lowered the dignity of his office. Tom DeLay, the House majority whip at the time, said he was offended to see a president "directly or indirectly attacking his own country in a foreign land." But the next president, George W. Bush, a Republican, spoke to the nation's slave-holding past much more directly, calling it "one of the greatest crimes of history." In a powerful speech in Senegal in 2003, Bush described the horrors of slavery and the injustices of segregation and said that only through centuries of struggle had America "learned that freedom is not the possession of one race." President Ronald Reagan apologized to Japanese-Americans who were imprisoned in camps during World War II. Bush apologized for abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib after the photographic evidence was seen around the world. He called it "a stain on our country's honor and our country's reputation". At other times presidents have admitted things have gone wrong, giving the impression of an apology while stopping just short: Bush on his administration's flawed response to Hurricane Katrina, Richard Nixon regretting the Watergate break-in, Reagan on the arms-for-hostages scandal. Instead of a simple "I'm sorry," Reagan offered: "Mistakes were made." http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/It-s-not-easy-for-presidents-to-say-I-m-sorry-3359552.php the "weakness" they're all screaming Obama is showing by apologizing is just bullshit. It's a sad incident; the Afghans seem to overreact to it, and I'm sad that's happening. I personally think it is a visceral reaction to ALL the things we've done that have been disrespectful of their religion, their customs, and just about everything else--something we do pretty regularly when we invade a country, out of our own ignorance of the culture. We need to get OUT...we've created such an atmosphere of anger that just about anything we do is fodder for release of that anger. I found this, an excerpt of which does a good job of explaining the problem:Quote:Smith says that NATO troops "get on a plane at a NATO base in the U.S. or Europe and fly to a NATO base in Afghanistan, and they never really engage with the Afghan population. Also -- and this is the chicken-and-the-egg question -- because of force-protection measures, soldiers can't get out there and win hearts and minds, and because of this, more soldiers die. And the more that soldiers die, the more force-protection measures there are -- and they interact even less. We've just driven a wedge between ourselves," Smith says, echoing feelings and observations expressed in numerous conversations TIME has had with analysts, observers, service members, officers and security contractors over more than two years in Afghanistan. The Saturday attacks seem to verify the findings of a declassified -- then reclassified -- U.S. Army study titled A Crisis of Trust and Cultural Incompatibility, which was released in May 2011. Through hundreds of interviews with both Afghan and American service members, it found that the murders of NATO troops by Afghan troops "do not represent 'rare and isolated events' as [is] currently being proclaimed." Afghan soldiers cited night raids and home searches by foreign troops, the lack of respect for women, indiscriminate shooting, constant cursing and arrogance as top complaints against their foreign "partners." They also said failure to prosecute foreign troops for war crimes, disrespect for Afghan soldiers, poor logistical support and a failure to share information led to divisions between the two forces -- among numerous other complaints that included entering mosques, eating in front of fasting Afghan soldiers during Ramadan and other episodes of the desecration of the Koran. At the same time, the report noted that U.S. troops have an extremely low regard for their Afghan counterparts. The service members' top complaints were that the Afghans were drug abusers, thieves, traitorous, unstable, incompetent and had poor officers and noncommissioned officers. The troops also said Afghan recruits lacked discipline, were dangerous in firefights, were cowardly, lazy and had poor hygiene. The report concludes that "the rapidly growing fratricide-murder trend committed by Afghan national security force [ANSF] personnel against NATO members" confirms the "ineffectiveness [of] our efforts in stabilizing Afghanistan, developing a legitimate and effective government, battling the insurgency, gaining the loyalty, respect and friendship of the Afghans [and] building the ANSFs into legitimate and functional organizations." Despite that, the U.S. and NATO have always painted the partnership in positive terms. http://news.yahoo.com/koran-burning-riots-u-afghan-soldiers-together-142000334.html is a scenario that has happened over and over when we have invaded countries; our arrogance seems to be reflected by the fact tha we make absolutely no effort to prepare the soldiers we send into battle about the culture of the places we send them.
Quote:Smith says that NATO troops "get on a plane at a NATO base in the U.S. or Europe and fly to a NATO base in Afghanistan, and they never really engage with the Afghan population. Also -- and this is the chicken-and-the-egg question -- because of force-protection measures, soldiers can't get out there and win hearts and minds, and because of this, more soldiers die. And the more that soldiers die, the more force-protection measures there are -- and they interact even less. We've just driven a wedge between ourselves," Smith says, echoing feelings and observations expressed in numerous conversations TIME has had with analysts, observers, service members, officers and security contractors over more than two years in Afghanistan. The Saturday attacks seem to verify the findings of a declassified -- then reclassified -- U.S. Army study titled A Crisis of Trust and Cultural Incompatibility, which was released in May 2011. Through hundreds of interviews with both Afghan and American service members, it found that the murders of NATO troops by Afghan troops "do not represent 'rare and isolated events' as [is] currently being proclaimed." Afghan soldiers cited night raids and home searches by foreign troops, the lack of respect for women, indiscriminate shooting, constant cursing and arrogance as top complaints against their foreign "partners." They also said failure to prosecute foreign troops for war crimes, disrespect for Afghan soldiers, poor logistical support and a failure to share information led to divisions between the two forces -- among numerous other complaints that included entering mosques, eating in front of fasting Afghan soldiers during Ramadan and other episodes of the desecration of the Koran. At the same time, the report noted that U.S. troops have an extremely low regard for their Afghan counterparts. The service members' top complaints were that the Afghans were drug abusers, thieves, traitorous, unstable, incompetent and had poor officers and noncommissioned officers. The troops also said Afghan recruits lacked discipline, were dangerous in firefights, were cowardly, lazy and had poor hygiene. The report concludes that "the rapidly growing fratricide-murder trend committed by Afghan national security force [ANSF] personnel against NATO members" confirms the "ineffectiveness [of] our efforts in stabilizing Afghanistan, developing a legitimate and effective government, battling the insurgency, gaining the loyalty, respect and friendship of the Afghans [and] building the ANSFs into legitimate and functional organizations." Despite that, the U.S. and NATO have always painted the partnership in positive terms. http://news.yahoo.com/koran-burning-riots-u-afghan-soldiers-together-142000334.html is a scenario that has happened over and over when we have invaded countries; our arrogance seems to be reflected by the fact tha we make absolutely no effort to prepare the soldiers we send into battle about the culture of the places we send them.
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:25 AM
Quote: I haven't read anything about them having "writing" in them, merely that they weren't recognized as Korans.
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:33 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:30 now dead, hundreds injured... and for what ?
Monday, February 27, 2012 8:42 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:30 now dead, hundreds injured... and for what ? I would say the same thing about Iraq and Libya except the numbers would be higher. Iraq? Not an existential threat, ever, and not the source of 9-11. (We can thank the Saudis for that, who also funded the Taliban and the more extreme elements of the Pakistani ISI.) Libya? What did they ever do to us? Surely there must be SOME compelling reason, something to justify why we killed a least a hundred thousand people and spent trillions of dollars! Seems to be so must dust in the wind, pretty much like the fuss being raised in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Seems like everyone is behaving like idiots.
Monday, February 27, 2012 9:16 AM
BYTEMITE
Monday, February 27, 2012 9:25 AM
Quote:ATTENTION ALL MORONS WHO KILL PEOPLE OVER A DAMN BOOK, HOLY OR NOT: THERE WILL BE SEVERAL BOOK BURNINGS SCHEDULED IN SEVERAL PLACES IN YOUR SUCK-ASS COUNTRY TODAY...PLEASE RIOT WITHIN THE DROP ZONE...ER I MEAN...PROTEST ZONE... AND THEN KISS YER ASS GOODBYE!
Monday, February 27, 2012 9:44 AM
Quote:I just love how , so often on the Left, we see folks pivot away from the issue at hand, and bring up completely different , separate points, to avoid having to deal w/ the specifics.
Monday, February 27, 2012 12:18 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: But in our land churches make none of the rules, they do not make laws, we are not their tools.
Quote:The Raines law was passed on March 23, 1896, by the New York State Legislature. It was nominally a liquor tax, but its intention was to curb the consumption of alcohol by imposing regulations. Among other provisions, it prohibited the sale of alcoholic beverages on Sunday—except in hotels. Most men worked a six-day week, and Sunday was the only full day for drinking at saloons. Under the law, however, hotels were allowed to serve liquor on Sunday, to guests only, provided it was served during a meal, or in the bedrooms of the hotel. State statutes allowed that any business was considered a hotel if it had 10 rooms for lodging and served sandwiches with its liquor. Saloons quickly found a loophole by adding small furnished bedrooms and applying for a hotel license. Dozens of "Raines law hotels," often located directly above saloons, opened. As a contemporary source put it, "This offered a premium on the transformation of saloons into hotels with bedrooms and led to unlooked-for evils," i.e. an increase in prostitution, as the rooms in many "Raines law hotels" were used mostly by prostitutes and unmarried couples. (In some cases these rooms may not even have been available at all; in a 1917 novel the protagonist sees "a Raines Law hotel with awnings, indicating that it was not merely a blind to give a saloon a hotel license but was actually open for business.") Jacob Riis wrote in 1902 of saloon keepers who mocked the law by setting out "brick sandwiches," two pieces of bread with a brick in between, thus fulfilling the legal requirement of serving food. He also writes of altercation in a saloon where a customer attempted to eat a sandwich which the bartender had served just for show; "the police restored the sandwich to the bartender and made no arrests." Such a shabby bar serves as the 1912 setting of the classic play The Iceman Cometh, by Eugene O'Neill.
Monday, February 27, 2012 12:23 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:I just love how , so often on the Left, we see folks pivot away from the issue at hand, and bring up completely different , separate points, to avoid having to deal w/ the specifics. Rappy, my point being... just because some people are stupid doesn't mean we should follow suit. Although in your case it's a little hard not to, seeing as you're intellectually challenged.
Monday, February 27, 2012 12:53 PM
Quote:I think it a bit out of sorts for you Anthony, given how often I bitch about it.
Monday, February 27, 2012 1:01 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 1:29 PM
Quote:Yes, yes. I disagree w/ your point, ergo, I must be stupid. *yawn* Got anything else ?
Quote:Apologizing sure hasn't helped matters. But I guess in your view, that was clearly the 'smart' thing to do, right ?
Monday, February 27, 2012 1:30 PM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by RionaEire: Signe just called Raptor intellectually challenged. Lame. "A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya
Monday, February 27, 2012 1:49 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: The smart thing to do would be to bow and scrape all the way out the door.
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:15 PM
Quote:Originally posted by CaveTroll: And yet Obama doesn't feel like he should apologize to catholic organizations who he is making violate their religious beliefs.
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:17 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:20 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote: I haven't read anything about them having "writing" in them, merely that they weren't recognized as Korans. I'm curious, which news outlets are you relying on. NPR or MSNBC ? " The unrest started Tuesday, when Afghan workers at the sprawling Bagram air base noticed that Qurans and other Islamic texts were in the trash that coalition troops dumped into a pit where garbage is burned. Some Afghan workers burned their fingers as they tried to salvage some of the books. Afghan government officials said initial reports indicated four Qurans were burned. The materials had been taken from a library at Parwan Detention Facility, which adjoins the base, because they contained extremist messages or inscriptions. Writing inside a Quran is forbidden in the Islamic faith, although it was unclear whether the handwritten messages were found in the holy book or other reading materials. A military official said it appeared that detainees at the prison were exchanging messages by making notations in the texts." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10111369
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:21 PM
Quote:The smart thing to do would be to bow and scrape all the way out the door.- Signy Absolutely the WORST thing we could do. But Obama seems up for the job, so what the hell, right ?-Rappy
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:24 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:30 now dead, hundreds injured... and for what ? I would say the same thing about Iraq and Libya except the numbers would be higher. Iraq? Not an existential threat, ever, and not the source of 9-11. (We can thank the Saudis for that, who also funded the Taliban and the more extreme elements of the Pakistani ISI.) Libya? What did they ever do to us? Surely there must be SOME compelling reason, something to justify why we killed a least a hundred thousand people and spent trillions of dollars! Seems to be so must dust in the wind, pretty much like the fuss being raised in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Seems like everyone is behaving like idiots.
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:34 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: I have a sneaking suspicion that if our country were invaded and occupied, and the invaders then started taking bibles out of churches and burning them, you just MIGHT see a similar backlash, up to and including killing some of the occupiers. And you'd call anyone who did such a thing a "great American".
Monday, February 27, 2012 2:47 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: I have a sneaking suspicion that if our country were invaded and occupied, and the invaders then started taking bibles out of churches and burning them, you just MIGHT see a similar backlash, up to and including killing some of the occupiers. And you'd call anyone who did such a thing a "great American".
Monday, February 27, 2012 3:08 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 3:21 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Tony, you have made the situation as clear as it can possibly be. But I guarantee that rappy will not see your analogy.
Monday, February 27, 2012 3:54 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 3:58 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Yeah, and just a country. And just several tens of thousands of country men killed. And just a flag. And just some torture. Nothing at all to get upset about. ---------- You of all people, rappy. YOU are the one who gets all hysterical, constantly snooping about the internet looking for one teeny little thing to get all exercised about. If it's really "just a book" then why do YOU get all paranoid about it?
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:12 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Yeah, and just a country. And just several tens of thousands of country men killed. And just a flag. And just some torture. Nothing at all to get upset about. ---------- You of all people, rappy. YOU are the one who gets all hysterical, constantly snooping about the internet looking for one teeny little thing to get all exercised about. If it's really "just a book" then why do YOU get all paranoid about it? It's just a book.
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:18 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:25 PM
Monday, February 27, 2012 4:31 PM
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