Climate shift causing epochal changes by SignyM

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Climate shift causing epochal changes

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:28
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VIEWED: 5139
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Monday, March 12, 2012 11:58 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Not ignoring your posts, just reading and thinking.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 12:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, I wanted to add that spewing carbon particles and tire rubber-scuffings all over creation increases absorption of visible light and conversion to heat (infrared) which also really speeds up icemelt.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 12:16 PM

OONJERAH

Signym,
I can follow the math but not the chemistry; I am chemically ignorant.
I understand the results-conclusions fairly well.

I very much appreciate your posts and I read them. Thank you.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 12:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Cave - ahem.

Why you refuse to google is beyond me.

>>>> During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels. <<<<

The skeptic argument...

CO2 was higher in the late Ordovician
"To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today - 4400 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming." (Monte Hieb)

What the science says...

>>>> During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels. <<<< Consequently, CO2 levels only needed to fall below 3000 parts per million for glaciation to be possible. The latest CO2 data calculated from sediment cores show that CO2 levels fell sharply during the late Ordovician due to high rock weathering removing CO2 from the air. Thus the CO2 record during the late Ordovician is entirely consistent with the notion that CO2 is a strong driver of climate.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 12:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Part of the problem is that some people like to post that because scientists say that carbon dioxide is the cause of THIS warming period, it must therefor be the cause of EVERY warming period, and that it is the ONLY cause of global warming. These same people- who would rather deny what's going on- also like to pretend that if science can't explain EVERY warming period, then it can't explain THIS one.

Scientists know that global temperature is multivariate.... it is the product of MANY possible causes, not just carbon dioxide. But in THIS moment, other variables have been ruled out.

In science, one must not only show correlation, one must show a mechanism by which one affects the other. Both have been shown. There is always the "possibility" of some other factor which we have not yet sussed out, but that would mean rejecting a causally-related factor in favor of "something" which has not even been described, much less explained. So, at that point, why not just say "God done it" or "Here be dragons"?

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Monday, March 12, 2012 12:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Nothing to do with that but ... in an effort to be even more of a money-maker, google took out google scholar from its list of choices. I've been told (but not confirmed) that access to that search paradigm is now being sold to university libraries, and you have to be a paid subscriber to use it.

Whatever the story, I bookmarked it, and for now that link still works.

Here is the link to google scholar:

http://scholar.google.com/schhp?hl=en&tab=ws

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Monday, March 12, 2012 6:04 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

That's stupid that google is doing that Kiki, thanks for the heads up.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 3:58 AM

CAVETROLL

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Cave - ahem.

Why you refuse to google is beyond me.

>>>> During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels. <<<<

The skeptic argument...

CO2 was higher in the late Ordovician
"To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today - 4400 ppm. According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming." (Monte Hieb)

What the science says...

>>>> During the Ordovician, solar output was much lower than current levels. <<<< Consequently, CO2 levels only needed to fall below 3000 parts per million for glaciation to be possible. The latest CO2 data calculated from sediment cores show that CO2 levels fell sharply during the late Ordovician due to high rock weathering removing CO2 from the air. Thus the CO2 record during the late Ordovician is entirely consistent with the notion that CO2 is a strong driver of climate.

In a later post I had said that CO2 did not appear to be strongly linked with global temperatures since high and low CO2 have occurred with high and low global temps. I then stated that perhaps there was a third data point. You appear to have pointed that out.

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Friday, March 16, 2012 2:52 PM

OONJERAH

Greenland's Glaciers are History => http://technorati.com/lifestyle/green/article/from-white-to-green-gree
nlands-glaciers/

... "Scientists have already seen the speed at which Greenland's glaciers are
rushing into the sea accelerate. And they have long-feared that, without commitments to curb
our greenhouse gas emissions, much of its ice cap will eventually disappear into the sea.

This new research suggests that threshold has already been passed. Previous models made some
pretty simple assumptions about how the 2 mile-thick ice block ..."

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Friday, April 13, 2012 2:26 PM

OONJERAH

US hit with worst drought in years =>
http://rt.com/usa/news/us-drought-dry-conditions-033/

Climatologists say a dry spell devastating almost all of America is
starting to worry the weather community during what is one of the
worst droughts in recent years.

The federal agency that investigates dry weather, the US Drought
Monitor, says that more than half of the continental United States
are experiencing “abnormally dry” conditions, which have so far
proven to be the worst the country has experienced since 2007.

"Conditions are starting to worry us now," Keith Eggleston, a climato-
logist with the Northeast Regional Climate Center in Ithaca, N.Y., tells
USA Today. The paper reports Eggleston as adding that a continuation of
the current dry spell in the Northeast US could pose a major risk to the
region’s agriculture, & unfortunately the kind of weather isn’t isolated.

In all, 48 of the 50 states in the US are experiencing at least moderate
drought conditions, which could prove catastrophic for the country’s
agriculture and ...

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:14 PM

OONJERAH

8 Ways Global Warming Is Already Changing the World =>
http://www.livescience.com/19833-8-ways-global-warming-changing-world.
html

Over the last 100 years, global temperatures have warmed by about 1.33
degrees Fahrenheit (0.74 degrees Celsius) on average. The change may
seem minor, but it's happening very quickly — more than half of it since
1979, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Though it can still be difficult to tease out how much climate change
plays in any given weather event, changes are occurring.

In the spirit of Earth day, here's a look at our marvelous blue marble
and the ways people and other living things are responding to global
warming.

+50 Amazing Facts About Earth - AND -
Top 10 Surprising Results of Global Warming =>
http://www.livescience.com/11350-top-10-surprising-results-global-warm
ing.html

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Monday, April 23, 2012 4:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow. Won't change the mind of any of our (or other) close-minded idjits, but I found it interesting. Especially the "10 facts". One sample:

Quote:
A whopping 125 lakes in the Arctic have disappeared in the past few decades, backing up the idea that global warming is working fiendishly fast nearest Earth's poles. Research into the whereabouts of the missing water points to the probability that permafrost underneath the lakes thawed out. When this normally permanently-frozen ground thaws, the water in the lakes can seep through the soil, draining the lake, one researcher likened it to pulling the plug out of the bathtub. When the lakes disappear, the ecosystems they support also lose their home.

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Monday, April 23, 2012 6:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

As hubby likes to point out....

DO YOU SEE AN EXIT SIGN ANYWHERE?

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Monday, April 23, 2012 11:24 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I saw those draining lakes on Frozen Planet yesterday, where does that water go? Its like a sinkhole I guess, what's at the bottom of a sink hole? How far down do they go?

Things have definitely shifted in my area of the world, according to my personal system, summer starts on June 1st in Portland, one can swim after this date. But in the last year I've decided to change it to June 15th because it stays cold later, ever since 2009. Now my camping lake doesn't open until Memorial day weekend, whereas it used to open on May 1st, sometimes a couple of days before May 1st. So things are definitely altering in my neck of the woods.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:47 AM

CAVETROLL

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/23/11144098-gaia-scientis
t-james-lovelock-i-was-alarmist-about-climate-change?lite

Quote:
James Lovelock, the maverick scientist who became a guru to the environmental movement with his “Gaia” theory of the Earth as a single organism, has admitted to being “alarmist” about climate change and says other environmental commentators, such as Al Gore, were too...

Will we hear retractions or admissions of reconsideration from other climate change adherents? I predict that we will not.

Quote:

"...The problem is we don’t know what the climate is doing..."

Brilliant! But you said you knew what was happening 20 years ago! How much needless legislation was enacted during that 20 year period based on your doom mongering?

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:21 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:

Will we hear retractions or admissions of reconsideration from other climate change adherents? I predict that we will not.

Golly, maybe becauase one "guru" isn't the sole voice?

You wingnuts are so funny. Dozens of scientists agree - you think they're full of it. One guy says something you like - it must be gospel.

Priceless.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 5:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'll counter that with:

Quote:
Prominent physicist Richard Muller, a researcher with Lawrence Berkeley Labs and skeptic of global warming, said his own research has changed his mind.

Muller is presenting the results of a two-year study of global temperature change at a conference in Santa Fe, New Mexico on Monday.

"I think some people will be brought around to recognizing that their dismissal of the evidence of global warming has now been answered," Muller told News10 in an interview Sunday night.

"In the end I was surprised," said Muller, who's exhaustive study was the most comprehensive to date in terms of changing temperatures on the Earth's land masses.

Muller found the land is 1.6 degrees warmer than in the 1950's.

The numbers almost exactly match those proposed in studies from both NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

"The fact that it's so close to what they had, I think indicates that their work had actually been unbiased," said Muller.

Part of Muller's research was funded by the conservative Charles Koch Foundation, whose founder is a well-known skeptic of global warming. That founder also funds research in the area of debunking the idea of global warming.More at http://www.news10.net/news/article/160937/2/Noted-global-warming-skept
ic-changes-his-stance always, it's all in what one chooses to believe and that won't change among those who want to deny it no matter what facts or what authority figures say. By the time the skeptics come around to recognizing its existence, it will be too late, in my opinion--if it isn't already.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:03 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Riona:

Quote:
When this normally permanently-frozen ground thaws, the water in the lakes can seep through the soil

My guess would be that the water joins the rest of the water table and behaves the same as the existing water table; the normal water tables don't create sinkholes (tho' some do), most flow to lower ground, become rivers or lakes where they hit rock (I would assume at lower elevations), or flow to the sea.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:24 AM

OONJERAH

As Devil's advocate: Just suppose next year, the best research proves there is No climate change.

Would that mean we should just keep trashing the planet? Given that we are so
selfish, we simply do not care about the animals and the environment, do I want
to breathe polluted air, drink polluted water?
I won't even mention our food modifications; too big a topic.

What Pris said!

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Thank you Oonj! Taking care of our planet isn't "needless" whether it relates to climate change or not. I personally think we have less to do with warming than people think, the only way I really think we're causing it is by deforestation, if the trees and forests can't do their jobs then things get weird. But either way we have to take care of the earth because at the rate we're going we won't be able to escape when the excrement hits the spinning device and terraform other worlds the way they do in our very favorite show.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 5:23 AM

CAVETROLL

Oonjerah,
I've said in earlier posts that not polluting is a goal worthwhile by itself. Pushing agendas ahead of goals leads to bad legislation and worse "solutions".

For example, why is it that 15 years ago there were cars on the road with significantly higher gas mileage than economy cars available today? If you're burning less fossil fuel per vehicle on the road isn't that a cumulative savings on pollution? In part it is because the economy cars available today are larger and heavier in order to meet minimum highway safety standards. We have a conflicting series of administrative organizations that are working at cross purposes. Business is being treated like a rabbit set upon by a pack of government dogs. The rabbit can only run one way so long before it has to change course to escape another hound coming from another direction.

For example, 2 economy cars, a 1997 Geo Metro and a 2012 Hyundai Accent. I've driven both and in my estimation they are both POS contenders. The Metro weighed 1808 pounds. The Accent weighs 2400. 600 pounds that you are lugging around every day. The Hyundai has an engine that is 600 CCs larger to compensate for the extra weight. But both of these cars are bantam weight hatchbacks compared to their contemporaries.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Worthwhile goals are worth doing for their inherent values. Dueling agendas are not the basis for good policies.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:30 AM

OONJERAH

Quote CaveTroll: "Worthwhile goals are worth doing for their inherent values. Dueling agendas
are not the basis for good policies."

Very true.
We have dueling agendas now to the point of legislative paralysis.
Been going on a long time and few seem willing to give up the game.
There's also Egos over Priorities.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Thursday, April 26, 2012 12:28 PM

OONJERAH

Antarctic ice melting from below, reveals satellite (+video)
Antarctica's ice shelves are being melted away by warm ocean
currents underneath, shows data collected from a NASA satellite. =>
http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0426/Antarctic-ice-melting-from-
below-reveals-satellite-video

Data collected from a NASA ice-watching satellite reveal that the vast
ice shelves extending from the shores of western Antarctica are being
eaten away from underneath by ocean currents, which have been growing
warmer even faster than the air above.

The animation above shows the circulation of ocean currents around the
western Antarctic ice shelves. The shelf thickness is indicated by the
color; red is thicker (greater than 550 meters), while blue is thinner
(less than 200 meters).

Launched in January 2003, NASA’s ICESat (Ice, Cloud and land Elevation
Satellite) studied the changing mass and thickness of Antarctica’s ice
from its location in polar orbit. An international research team used
over 4.5 million ...

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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