Riona's new experiment: Care to place odds? by RionaEire

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Riona's new experiment: Care to place odds?

POSTED BY: RIONAEIRE
UPDATED: Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:51
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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:50 PM

To tell the truth, I've hardly noticed ANY name calling on this forum. Then again, I tend to skim through posts (and threads) that look like they have degenerated into such things. They are not very interesting to follow.

What you have described Kwicko, is what I call passive aggressive behaviour and personally I find it worse than name calling.

I guess I prefer directness, even when it is rude. Maybe I should start a thread.

Btw Rione, I would be interested to find out what my incident of name calling was.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:56 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Magon's I didn['t write down yours, for the more prolific namecallers I wrote them down but I didn't for you, I'm sorry. And I just recycled my chart I made. It was probably something not too bad. The worst one on my chart was Story's use of the word "Raptard, she must think she's clever, but I don't think she is. generally insults with "tard" in them don't sit well with me.

About passive aggressiveness. Ever since Lili said I was I've been trying to understand exactly what it means. Best as I can figure it it means sneakiness and denial if someone confronts you about bad behavior. I think Lili may be right that I do that sometimes. I was dismayed that wikipedia's explanation was lacking and I didn't feel like I understood the concept any better after reading it.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I explained what happened in the other thread. The comments above were a call back to HKCAV calling me a troll in that thread, and also sarcastic. And, as said, I was playing with Frem, who did in fact post in that thread.

You don't know me Oonj, you haven't been here long. I'm a fairly neutral person who will take sides in a debate based on what I consider logical or consistent.

Niki knows me better. Far better, at least, than to accuse me like this. I once donated money to Niki so that she could go help with the Gulf Oil Spill, and when she first came here, she was under attack by actual trolls who followed her from the board they chased her from, and I stood up for her.

As for a "sign of my character," this is a thread about an attempt to measure the amount of personal insults and trolling seen around the board, and I made a joke about Riona making us wait a little before posting our results. I've been playing along with the theme of the thread, which is trolling. And, perhaps you didn't notice, but my name wasn't among any of the people throwing around personal insults in Riona's results.

Now, I'm sorry that my attitude came across so harsh in the other thread; it was unintended, and as I explained to HKCAV, there is a BIG difference between serious disagreement and with trolling.

But these accusations are simply untrue, and based on a misunderstanding.

This is nothing negative about you ... but I don't think I have ever seen such serious miscommunication like ... ever. It's like somehow you and Niki ended up as skew lines in space. You 2 aren't even on the same plane on this. FWIW I thought it was wondrous to see you playing.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Riona

Well, you must have thought your little experiment was meaningful in some way, or you wouldn't have leapt from 'number of names called' to 'feared neighborhood witch'.

So obviously calling people names and being mean is a BAD THING to you. But then, you did it yourself. So, it's not a totally bad thing to be avoided, it's a conditionally bad thing that can be OK - if it's done by the right person, for the right reason.

So what I was wondering about was - what was it you were telling yourself that made it OK to do?

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:57 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

About passive aggressiveness. Ever since Lili said I was I've been trying to understand exactly what it means. Best as I can figure it it means sneakiness and denial if someone confronts you about bad behavior. I think Lili may be right that I do that sometimes. I was dismayed that wikipedia's explanation was lacking and I didn't feel like I understood the concept any better after reading it.

Passive aggressive behaviour is behaviour that intends to insult or demean or control (same as aggressive behaviour) but is done in a more subtle way, so that it can make the victim feel terrible but without really realising why.

Have you ever spent some time with someone, or had a conversation, and come away feeling really bad or stupid, but you can't quite work out why. Maybe that person has been passive aggressive with you.

some examples of behaviours might include...not returning someone's calls and acting like you never received them, making someone late on purpose or turning up late leaving someone sitting alone waiting for you, doing something that you know is deliberately annoying to another person (ie clicking your pen).

I could give you some examples of passive aggressive behaviour on this forum by one poster, but that would be naming and shaming in a way that I don't feel comfortable with, but I would say that such behaviour on forums would include things that deliberately wind someone up...constantly mispelling their name, dropping in reference to personal disclosures in an unkind way, referring to them by the wrong nationality, backhanded compliments, attributing to them statements they never made etc etc. All these things need to be done deliberately, mind you, because passive aggressive behaviour is about intent.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, if I get this right, passive aggressive behavior is meant to diminish someone in some way (like aggressive behavior) but to not look like you're doing it (so as not to invite being targeted back).

But it occurs to me what we would consider an unhappy character trait some people would call good tactics. (As opposed to tic-tacs! I'm getting silly. Time to go to bed 1kiki. OK.)

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Well Kiki you're pretty mean to certain people too. But I honestly didn't realize that the trope about the one neighbor that kids are scared of would make you so upset, after all Frem wears the title with pride, especially since the kids who do that don't usually take the time to get to know said neighbor to find out if the rumors are true. But I really didn't know it would make you upset and I'll never say it again.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:56 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

The book Living with the Passive–Aggressive Man lists 11 responses that may help identify passive–aggressive behavior:[2]

Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of creating a feeling of insecurity in others or of disguising one's own insecurities.
Intentional Inefficiency: Intentionally being late and forgetting things, another way to exert control or to punish.
Convenient forgetfulness: To win any argument with a dishonest denial of actual events.
Fear of competition
Fear of dependency
Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: the passive–aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
Making chaotic situations
Making excuses for non-performance in work teams
Obstructionism
Procrastination
Sulking
Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, if I get this right, passive aggressive behavior is meant to diminish someone in some way (like aggressive behavior) but to not look like you're doing it (so as not to invite being targeted back).

But it occurs to me what we would consider an unhappy character trait some people would call good tactics. (As opposed to tic-tacs! I'm getting silly. Time to go to bed 1kiki. OK.)

Correct.Sometimes the only safe way to respond is to be passive aggressive, especially if you are faced with someone or an entity that is more powerful and aggressive than you are.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:28 AM

MAL4PREZ

Passive aggressive behavior I'm not proud of:

In dance class, I get rather claustrophobic. (I got kicked in the face in a crowded class once. Not fun.) So I tend to get there early and find a spot where I have space. Often, someone will come in late and choose a spot inside my carefully arranged bubble, (I need a large bubble, being tall) and sometimes they'll follow me as I carefully inch away, because they are unaware of what ails me.

I do get PA about this. Sticking my foot towards them, stretching a bit far on a side swing maybe, so as to get them to back the hell off. I'm sending a message without saying it, causing discomfort so I can have my way, but not having to own up to being the cause of that discomfort.

I'm not proud of it. I catch myself doing it and try to stop, but it still happens.

And before I get the suggestions: asking people to move is often not an option, since there is sometimes no where to move. It's just something I have to learn to make peace with, because full classes are unavoidable.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:17 AM

FREMDFIRMA

You are far from alone in that Mal4 - I have personal space issues myself which are prolly more severe, and deliberately engage in progressively less vague threat display till folk get the message.

Now depending on culture, personal space generally goes three to six feet, Japanese tend toward less and Germans tend towards more for example, but during an experiment a while back where the psych dept of MSU was trying to see if personal space and personality type had some correlation (it seems to, but not a lot of evidence there) we discovered that my concept of personal space extends to somewhere between eight and twelve feet - any closer than that and I start getting uncomfortable about it and progressively unfriendlier...

Not a big issue in my work, given that I am alone out there in the dark, and given the remoteness and the situation leaving such room is expected as a defensive measure, plus everyone knows when I am in work-mode it's best to leave well enough alone - although I'll override it if someone is out there for a reason and uncomfortable BEING alone, and move in so they feel safe and protected...
Nor an issue with grocery shopping given I tend to do it at 3:40am and thus have the place prettymuch all to myself, up to and including using a machine to check instead of a human if I care to.

But I completely understand where you're coming from - the worst of it is people who seem to be themselves uncomfortable if their bubble is NOT in contact with someone elses cause there doesn't seem to be any friendly way oft-times to say get outta my space, does there ?
Special mention for some of my Rasta buddies, who are very empathetic people who prefer to be right IN your space or even touching you when they talk to you, although they admittedly try to not do that it's just so foreign to their nature it's all but impossible - I generally just grit my teeth and endure, forgive, cause they really are kind people and mean no harm.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Did you see that are women people thread? LOL! I just had to set up for the deluge of responses that I won't answer.

Thank you, Oonj. That is the precise sentence that bothered me and caused my feelings toward Byte to be so negative. I spent a lot of time in that thread trying to derbate with Byte because I thought her positions were so far out and I thought we might come to some kind of middle ground, and I was being honest and forthright. To find out later that she was just playing me, when despite our occasional differences I've always had a fair amount of respect for her, really turned me off.

I certainly admit that MY bugaboo (like personal space in others) is being lied to...long story, let's just say "mommy" was a pro. It doesn't bother me for long, because unless there are mitigating circumstances, I merely lump the person who did it into the negative file and don't trust them again. I never put Byte in the negative file before, we just sometimes disagreed, but I respected her. Now, you see, I wonder if some conversation we had were put-ons, and I'll remember this in future. It doesn't make for good interpersonal communications.

Also, she pretty much had a go at me in that thread, which I find particularly objectionable if she was just "playing a game". Being unpleasant to someone just for a game (not flirting), when the other person doesn't know? You guys really think that's okay; I don't.

It's all unimportant in the greater scheme of things, and water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. Maybe it's that it came out of left field and caught me by surprise and that's why I reacted the way I did. But nothing on the internet is that important, I've just learned something new.

That's the crux of the entire thing. No biggie.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:07 AM

OONJERAH

Others indicate that Byte's posts were innocent. Perhaps. But I am wary.

Niki,
You say what you believe, sharing ideas that matter.
Then you put your time where your mouth is, actively communicating in your neighborhoods.
60's-70's, Peaceful protests did a lot of good. I really admire you for this.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

Now depending on culture, personal space generally goes three to six feet, Japanese tend toward less and Germans tend towards more for example...

Yeah, Germans' concept of personal space generally includes Poland, France, the Sudetenland, the low countries (Belgium, Netherlands, etc.) and bits of Russia. They even have a word for it: Lebensraum - "room to live" or "room to roam".

I say that as a very large Germanic person who likes having quite a bit of personal space.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Thanks for the list Magon's. 1, sometimes in regard to my own insecurities. 2 no. 3 no. 4 sometimes. 5 no. 6 no. 7 not on purpose. 8 sometimes. 9 no. 10 totally. 11 no. 12 sometimes.

I don't see anything wrong with that Mal4, you want them out of your space without having to go to the trouble of explaining it to them, I see nothing wrong with that.

Niki, Byte was teasing when she said she was trolling the other thread, she wasn't trolling the other thread. If she had been trolling the other thread she wouldn't have gotten all upset by it because she wouldn't have actually cared. She is my good friend so I'm used to her and how she is.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:21 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Niki,

When Byte said, "Did you see that are women people thread? LOL! I just had to set up for the deluge of responses that I won't answer," she was play-acting the definition of a "troll." It was play-acting. She answered plenty of responses and I'm pretty sure had next to no fun while she was at it.

The thing that gets me about the way Byte is handling the reaction here in this thread, is that she at no time apologizes for the misunderstanding. Nothing like "Oh, hey Niki, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you at all. Of course, I was very serious in the Are Women People thread. I'm really sorry you misunderstood. If someone had said such a thing to me in all seriousness, I'd be pretty livid myself." No, nothing like that. Just, "You're wrong Niki and you don't understand!"

Y'know, Byte, I'm gonna say it again. If you explained yourself a little more and didn't just react with these little "byte" sized retorts, you could cut the rampant misunderstanding by a good 70%.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 4:19 PM

FREMDFIRMA

HKCav, sometimes folks like us with our sideways thought processes have problems communicating with the normals - which is what I think this was, really.

-F

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:11 PM

OONJERAH

Frem, if you think there's any normals in here ... think again.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... when I do experiments on you guys you don't want to know the results ..."

No, it was the snark that came with this experiment that struck a hypocritical chord. The results were fine.

What I was trying to do was point out to you in as neutral a way as I could that you were being a teeny bit of an ass - the very thing you accuse others of being. That no matter how much sugar you pour over it, to me that combination of stink and sugar comes across as being kind of creepy.

Well, there are probably many versions of cats and dogs. The cat lashes its tail and the dog thinks playmate! the dog wags its tail and the cat thinks hunter! It sometimes amazes me that we can communicate at all even when we use the same language - we start from such different expectations and assumptions. I've seen it quite often in my years - those rifts seem a natural part of humanity. So I hope you don't expect to get along with everyone, or that everyone will get along with you, or each other.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Kiki, I do thin though that by dialoguing and dialoguing some more even the most different people can learn to get along and find common ground. That's how conflicts are resolved, by lots of dialoguing, by people sitting down at the table of reasoning and willingness to cooperate and just talking and talking until a peace can be made , or an understanding, or whatever the case warrants.
And then there are days where we're all just going to fight. But that is okay because its all part of the whole experience.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:02 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I used to think so too, but I've sometimes found myself totally unable to understand the other, and I see it happen as an uninvolved person.
Communication breaks down even between reasonable people b/c their reasonableness is too different from the reasonableness of the other. And even if by some miracle people happen to find each other who REALLY DO UNDERSTAND each other, there will still be areas where they simply can't either understand or agree.

We might try to minimize and overcome them, but misunderstanding, miscommunication and disagreement are inevitable facts of human interaction.

I want to set this off separately so it stands out - though my feelings actually weren't hurt I do accept your apology as a statement of your non-hostile intention.

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:39 AM

BYTEMITE

I apologized in the other thread for being overly confrontational, blunt, and sometimes harsh. And when I am insulted in this manner, I am supposed to apologize again?

Perhaps it's difficult to tell, as I tend to be less upfront about my feelings than I do my opinions, but it may be possible I might be feeling somewhat offended and betrayed myself when people who I thought were my friends wrongly accuse me of something like this. It's also entirely possible, after being treated like this - and continuing to be treated like this, since I am still being accused and receiving little jabs about this in other threads - that I don't have any inclination to mend fences with anyone.

However, I will admit that I am in the wrong on one point: that I am not wanted here, and yet I have allowed myself to be provoked into responding when my very presence is so offensive to you all.

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, nobody doesn't want you here, or finds you offensive. We've been discussing a misunderstanding and one of the points has BEEN miscommunication. I didn't see any apology or any indication you were teasing when you wrote you were putting us on in the "Are Women People" thread...if I had realized that, it wouldn't have bothered me. I was just left with the impression that you had been laughing at us when we were trying to have a serious discussion. I hope you can see how that would make someone feel.

This is the first thread I've read this morning, so I don't know about any other "jabs", but I don't think it's necessary to carry this beyond this thread, or even any further here, as it's been chewed over plenty. It's a miscommunication, nothing more; I took you seriously when you were joking, must have missed any apology, and only wrote my own feelings. I didn't intentionally "wrongly accuse" you of anything; at the time I merely took you at your word. Others chimed in to explain the misunderstanding. There's no more to it as far as I'm concerned, and I'm glad to know you weren't lying to us in that thread. I don't think anyone has wrongly accused you of anything, there was just some confusion and I thank those who cleared it up.

Thank you for the kind words, Oonj. I was going to put that in a p.m. so as not to further exacerbate this thread, but decided I have the right to say "thank you" here as much as anyone. I hope you don't feel treated badly, Byte, we've just been clearing it up. That's all we can do here, communication being what it is, as others have said.

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 4:50 AM

BYTEMITE

It's possible, looking back, that the apology may have been more implied than I realized at the time. And that I have tripped over my tendency to not communicate feelings well. Again.

But I have realized I was harsh. When I apologized to you about confusing you with Pizmo, I was also trying to apologize for the snarling thing I had been to you. And I do feel bad about HK. Perhaps I was even too harsh with Pizmo, though some of his comments I still think were uncalled for, and it would be best if we continue not to talk.

I've been quieter recently, partly because of anger, partly sheer defensiveness, but also partly because I didn't want to continue to upset anyone. And every time I've spoken up since then, I've failed in that regard.

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Still no reason not to try - man, if I was afraid of looking like an idiot, I'd never say nothin!

-F

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:51 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
You are far from alone in that Mal4 - I have personal space issues myself which are prolly more severe, and deliberately engage in progressively less vague threat display till folk get the message.

Now depending on culture, personal space generally goes three to six feet, Japanese tend toward less

Oh let's just talk about some of the kids at grad school from the East, and how they'd stand close to me in the food truck line that they'd brush my backpack. I tried all kinds of weird tricks to get them to just stop. Like facing a different direction then swinging around - whack! Stupid fuckers. They'd never figure it out.

Riona - the problem with my PA dance behavior is how that kind of thing *is* noticed, even subconsciously, and I'll find myself taking class for a year and never having friends. Oh sure, in a pro ballet class you better get the f out of the way, because those bitches will kick you if you take up their space, but the dance I do is not like that.

In fact, write after I wrote that last post I took a very crowded class, and I bumped a girl, and we just kind of smiled and commented on the crowdedness. That's a weird kind of ice breaking, that next time we take class together we'll recognize each other and there will be friendliness, rather than more layers of PA.

See, I'm learning.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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