Wow - North Korea agrees to suspend nuclear weapons tests and uranium enrichment by pizmobeach

Quote Oonjerah: "Arab lands: their economies are undeveloped, except for oil. The land could be
reclaimed if those fat sheiks would just say the word, & buy a little equipment. Watching that
sort of mismanagement is extremely frustrating."

OK. I may owe the sheiks an apology.

(1958) "President Eisenhower, in an internal discussion, observed to his staff, and I’m quoting now,
"There’s a campaign of hatred against us in the Middle East, not by governments, but by the people."
The National Security Council discussed that question and said, "Yes, and the reason is, there’s a
perception in that region that the United States is supporting harsh and brutal and corrupt regimes
and is blocking democratization and development and is doing so because of our interest in controlling
the oil reserves of the region. And they said, it’s difficult to counter this perception, because it’s
accurate. It should be accurate. It is natural for us to support status quo governments because we
want to maintain control ..."
— Noam Chomsky

"There is a good way to stop terrorism. Stop participating in it."
— Noam Chomsky

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Sunday, March 11, 2012 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

We simply have no common ground to work with. When you say things like this, it disturbs me.

I almost can't believe you aren't messing around.

--Anthony

It is disturbing. Good for you.

It doesn't mean that it's not true though.

I hope we never get to that point in our own lives. 1984 is my favorite book, and it's also the scariest thing I've ever mulled over again and again in my mind since the day I read it. Many days, I wish I never had even heard about it.

The 1984 scenario didn't happen overnight.

It was decades of life getting worse. And even though most were programmed to believe they lived in the best available world, they were continually subject to losing more personal liberties practically every time you turned the page.

Personally, I'm afraid of that happening to America if things keep going down the same "Bush Jr./Obama" path we've been headed down since 2000.

Right now, we have the illusion that everything is still okay because crime is relatively low. Once China cuts off our credit line and our politicians can't afford to do anything they promise, we're going to be living in a much different America than we've all been happily digging a grave for while spending more than we could afford (on a personal, on a city-wide, on a county-wide, on a state-wide, and on a national scale) for decades now.

Good luck to you when that day comes Anthony.

On that day, the world can see just how many Christians can just as easily be turned into animals under the right circumstances. I'm no better than anyone else inherently just because I'm a white American. I do fear the day that my own resolve will be put to the test. And if I fail, then I am an animal.

I've got my fire-arms and a healthy supply of consumables that I continually rotate if that day ever comes in my lifetime.

That will only give me a few precious months to ride out the rough stuff while answering to nobody though. If it goes on forever after that point, how long until I fall in line?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, March 12, 2012 8:59 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Jack a chara,

I'm not going to deny that I agree with some of the stuff you're saying, they are programmed and brainwashed and the reason they're so susceptable is because their lives suck brick and the higher ups know which strings to pull, and if they lived in a society that was different then its likely less of them would choose to get weird and radical like that. I just don't think your wording is helping people to see where you're coming from. Sure you can say that they are acting in an animalistic fashion when they kill all around them to get what they want in the form of wild sex in Heaven (sex for girls hurts the first time though, so they really won't have as much fun with those virgins as they think they will.). But when you're presenting a point wording matters a lot, it is the single thing that can tip the scale from people understanding where you're coming from to people totally turning off and not being into what you're saying and thinking you're too extreme. No one expects you to be a brilliant negotiator, but certain word choices will turn your crowd off faster than a lightswitch and calling people animals is one of those word choices, even if you feel they're acting like animals in their behavior, you can just say it like that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 12, 2012 10:19 AM

Quote FremdFirma: "animals is too kind a word for em, besides being yanno, an insult to the animal kingdom."

I like animals, too ... and I respect them.
Animals : Terrorists. I totally fail to get the resemblance.

ETA: I am a slow reader. I tend to skip very long posts or rants.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 10:55 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So anyway, back to NK - and Iran.

Iran I get. They certainly have enough 'stuff' for a dirty bomb, if they wanted to set one off they would have done so by now. And I'm reasonably sure that they've done the nuclear calculation that goes: launch a nuclear missile and we WILL be slagged many times over. I don't see them as a threat, even IF they get a bomb, or several. It's pretty obviously a deterrence against Israel, one that will make an Israeli attack against them sufficiently painful that Israel would think twice.

NK is harder to gage. As extreme a position they have adopted it's far harder to intuit their calculation. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

I would like to point out that NK doesn't ALWAYS continue underground and 'Geezer' is simply wrong. The last time they agreed to halt their nuclear program, they were under IAEA watch, with seals on the equipment, intrusive inspections, and round-the-clock video monitoring of their nuclear facilities. In fact, it was quite a big deal when they backed out of the agreement, disabled the monitoring and broke the seals.

I think the effectiveness of the agreement is dependent on the conditions attached.

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Monday, March 12, 2012 11:31 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Here's a potential NK calculation that makes it perfectly logical to still pursue nuclear arms but enter into an effective (but temporary) agreement:

1) put active nucler development on hold - nuclear bomb not going so well, we need to go back to the drawing board and re-do our calculations and engineering;

2) obtain food aid at a time when we were going to shelve our active work anyway;

3) stop participating in the food-aid/ nuclear halt program when we have the bomb's bugs worked out.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:13 PM

I guess they're just acting like animals then...

To me, the difference is tomato; tomato....

Hell... it's not as if anybody I've known or loved has felt the wrath of one of their pawns personally. Maybe they are just "acting" like animals.

I can't say one way or another.

Maybe the RWED would benefit here from hearing from a person who has lost a loved one from one of these mindles proles carrying out their duty.

On a side note, I hardly think that somebody capable of carrying out a suicide mission that could take up to thousands of "heathens" is concerned for even a micro-second of how uncomfortable sex with his 76 virgins would be. Afterall, they're not going to be virgins after he gets through with them and there are only 76 to go through for eternity.

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
A Jack a chara,

I'm not going to deny that I agree with some of the stuff you're saying, they are programmed and brainwashed and the reason they're so susceptable is because their lives suck brick and the higher ups know which strings to pull, and if they lived in a society that was different then its likely less of them would choose to get weird and radical like that. I just don't think your wording is helping people to see where you're coming from. Sure you can say that they are acting in an animalistic fashion when they kill all around them to get what they want in the form of wild sex in Heaven (sex for girls hurts the first time though, so they really won't have as much fun with those virgins as they think they will.). But when you're presenting a point wording matters a lot, it is the single thing that can tip the scale from people understanding where you're coming from to people totally turning off and not being into what you're saying and thinking you're too extreme. No one expects you to be a brilliant negotiator, but certain word choices will turn your crowd off faster than a lightswitch and calling people animals is one of those word choices, even if you feel they're acting like animals in their behavior, you can just say it like that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:08 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
What's your answer Kwicko?

I think a good plan of Terraforming has been laid out here.

I'm all about a reduction in military force and imperialism.

What do you think should be done?

How about letting them figure out their own problems?

Has that ever occurred to you, you who claim to not want government breathing down your neck? Why are you so quick to send it stomping on the necks of others?

You're no different than Wulfie or Rappy, Jack. You don't give a god damn about "freedom" - you only want the boot off YOUR neck, and you'll happily sell out anyone and everyone else to make that happen.

How would you go about all this "terraforming"? Be specific. Get really deep into the details, if you can.

I point out Dubai because they are actually taking strides to DO SOMETHING. They are "terraforming", if you'd call it that, reshaping their land to something it's never been, explicitly because they know the oil is going to run out, and they need a post-petrochemical economy already set up and running before that happens.

Say what you will, but they're thinking much further ahead than you are on these matters, not that you'd ever show even an ounce of grudging respect for those you call "sub-human" and "animals", despite the fact that nobody from Dubai was any part of the 9/11 attacks (neither were any Iraqis or Afghans, but don't let that stop your hatred, either. I know how much disdain you have for facts that are inconvenient to your worldview!)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Anybody who would strap a bomb on their chest or down a plane that they're on to take out other people is an animal. I won't sugar coat that. It's not as if I'm lumping in everyone and calling all Muslims animals.

So you're really saying that the passengers on Flight 93 were a bunch of "animals", right? Those are your terms, yes? They downed a plane that they were on, in order to take out other people, after all.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:18 PM

Quote:
Please remember,Anthony, before you post further, that I'm a right leaning libertarian that holds the church in much higher regard than a lot of the folk who post here. I may not be confirmed Catholic yet, at 32, and I may not tow the Rethuglican line 24/7, but the Demonocrats scare me even more......

I find it hilarious that you refer to yourself as any kind of "libertarian" at all. You're a sniveling boot-licker, eager to please your master while condemning others for being so blind and dumb as to do the same.

Every charge you've leveled at "them" can just as easily be made against "us", America, capitalism, the 1%, etc.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:28 PM

Quote:
Maybe the RWED would benefit here from hearing from a person who has lost a loved one from one of these mindles proles carrying out their duty.

Raises hand...

You do realize that I lost my father to just such mindless proles who were only "carrying out their duty", right? He was a good soldier, obeyed orders, went to 'Nam, spent a year getting doused with Agent Orange, and even his beloved government admits that they murdered him - but they were only doing what they were told, after all.

Yet you persist in thinking it's only "them" who are capable of such monstrous behavior to others. Your own country does it every single day, Jack, and you'll happily cheer them on all the while, because you're one of those useful idiots who believe in "American excpetionalism", i.e., the idea that if someone else does it, it's horrific, but if AMERICA does it, then that's an exception, and it's magically awesome now because it was done by AMERICA, and AMERICA can never do wrong!

And because you follow such black-and-white beliefs, you'll never be useful in this world for anything other than cannon fodder.

I never had very much respect for you, but this thread has proven that I gave you far too much benefit of the doubt, and that you are an utterly worthless excuse for a human. You are, in your own words, a sub-human animal, and you brainwashed yourself into that state. You can't even blame your church; you did this all to yourself. The real difference between you and a suicide bomber is that you're far more of a coward, and would never put your brave words into action.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:30 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Come on Quicko, I see what you're saying but using flight 93 as an example is totally lame and isn't applicable, you know that was a good of the many outweighs the good of the few thing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 6:49 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Doesn't that also apply to the hijackers? They weren't ignorant countryboys brainwashed into visions of glory and virgins, so here kid, make your tape and strap on your vest and go get 'em, tiger. They were older, educated, some even married with families. Surely they weren't doing it for their own good ... therefore, they must have been doing it for the good of the many. If you can't see it, consider that it's just that their 'many' is different from your 'many'.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 8:53 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Interesting idea/perspective Kiki. the question then is are they doing it for some perceived cause to help their fellow countrymen and Muslims? Or are they doing it for the virgins they get afterwords. I guess we'd have to talk to a former Al Qaida member to find that out.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 13, 2012 9:48 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

We might as well ask if Christians try to be good because it's the right thing to do... or if they insidiously try to be good merely for the bounties of heaven or the resurrection.

I would suggest that not everything can be boiled down to such a convenient motivation, and possibly nobody ever did anything on the singular premise of getting virgins. (Or going to heaven, for that matter.) I would suggest that people are a hair deeper and more complex than that. Even if they hope to get virgins or go to heaven, there's more going on.

But it sure sounds good to say that some animal committed mass murder just to ream a bunch of virgins and for no other reason. It protects us from having to think any deeper about their motivations or our own.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:01 AM

Well... shit.

Y'all beat me to the punchline - in TRIPLICATE even.
I'm actually impressed.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 5:40 PM

Damn Kwicko...

You posted the shit out of my posts :)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Anybody who would strap a bomb on their chest or down a plane that they're on to take out other people is an animal. I won't sugar coat that. It's not as if I'm lumping in everyone and calling all Muslims animals.

So you're really saying that the passengers on Flight 93 were a bunch of "animals", right? Those are your terms, yes? They downed a plane that they were on, in order to take out other people, after all.

As for flight 93, I won't even go into that with you, on your terms, because that would bring up a whole bunch of "conspiracy theories" concerning easily made up audio digested by a desperate public because people in HIGH places needing to make EXECUTIVE decisions to just make sure a plane falls over un-populated land.

Even with my conspiratorial sided mind, I have to agree it was the right decision if it really went down the way I suspect it REALLY did.

It sure as hell is a decision I would never be qualified to make, but seeing as how there was several hours warning that something was wrong with that flight, making it disappear before it killed not only anyone in that plane, but any potentially thousands more that it flew into, was the right decision.

I hated the Bush government for that feeling for many years. Now that we're all a little older and more used to this thing, how else could it have played out? Assuming that we intentionally shot that plane out of the sky when we had the chance, as horrific as that image is, what would happen if it ever got out that this is what really happened?

So... assuming that we did shoot that plane out of the sky, knowing full well there were hundreds of innocent Americans on it when it happened, the only questions we can ask, post mortom, is why was this the best decision?

I have some suggestions that I'd like to humbly suggest....

1) Two planes had already mindlessly crashed into the Twin Towers, hours before. Although I personally held no positive regard for what they stood for, the truth is that not only did many American civilians die there that day, but many foreign civilians did as well, as well as hundreds of brave firefighters and cops.

2) You bet your ass that after that fact every agency available was monitoring every single second of every single move any planes were making. When you have some commercial jet that is just "accidentally" making its way over Camp David (where it didn't belong), what do you do before it's too late?

3) Assuming the situation I laid out here EVER even really happened in real life, why would you EVER tell the public about it? If that happened, there were no HEROs involved, just a Nazi Government that does whatever the hell it wants......

There would probably only be people who haven't slept a good night's sleep in 11 years after the fact. It would be a HORRIBLE choice to have to make, and I'm glad that a choice like that is so far above my pay grade that I'd never even have to talk to those Americans who would have made that decision.

So... sorry about taking the "long story" route, but I belive this question is a red herring because I don't believe at all the way that things went down according to your children's Social Studies books. (The same books that now call Columbus a slave trader)

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I find it hilarious that you refer to yourself as any kind of "libertarian" at all. You're a sniveling boot-licker, eager to please your master while condemning others for being so blind and dumb as to do the same.

Every charge you've leveled at "them" can just as easily be made against "us", America, capitalism, the 1%, etc.

Dude, you don't know me. Back off a second.....

I don't trust anyone, on any side, even the "Libertarians". That's why I'm 32 and I own my own house with CASH money and I'm rehabbing it. I moved into an area relatively close to family and the property taxes here are less than 1/3rd I'd pay if I was living 15 minutes west of me, in Illinois, the most corrupt state of the Union.

I can live the rest of my life off of 10 bucks an hour and still put money into the house. I'm not speaking from a "compromised" platform that most of the other 98% of the sorry sods in this economy come from.

I wasn't born rich. I wasn't born poor. In fact, I grew up thinking that the mutual health insurance coverage my own parents had for us everyone had, even though we didn't get much in the way of new toys until Christmas every year. As it is, I've been uninsured for over 8 years now. I AM NOT one of the wealthy.

I just knew how to use my money better than 99% of everyone else.

I don't lick anybody's boot.

If I cared for one second about people who didn't care for themselves, other than my family and longtime friends, I'd be writing books about how easy it really is to make a good life in this world and economy if you do the right things. In three weeks I will be collecting my first W2 cash for over 2 1/2 years. Meager wages? Yes... but more than enough than I need to survive and keep rehabbing my house.

I'm not asking you to lick my boots here. I'm just pointing out that you made a VERY BIG MISTAKE by calling me a bootlicker.

I post here out of boredom and my tendencies post these words or those words.

There's not a boot in the world that I NEED to lick now, and I'm in a position that is comfortable enough for me that I wouldn't even be tempted into licking boots to move up.

Give me 3 bucks over minimum wage, adjusted for inflation, for the rest of my life, and I'll be living in 80% better conditions than most Americans for the rest of my life. I wasn't born into it. I didn't go to college for it. I'm just self sufficient to a fault.

Good luck with your struggle either way. Either you're a have-not that want's more, or you're a well-to-do that feels guilty. Either way, you're way on the fringe and you're overcompensating in every venom laden post you make.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Raises hand...

You do realize that I lost my father to just such mindless proles who were only "carrying out their duty", right? He was a good soldier, obeyed orders, went to 'Nam, spent a year getting doused with Agent Orange, and even his beloved government admits that they murdered him - but they were only doing what they were told, after all.

Yet you persist in thinking it's only "them" who are capable of such monstrous behavior to others. Your own country does it every single day, Jack, and you'll happily cheer them on all the while, because you're one of those useful idiots who believe in "American excpetionalism", i.e., the idea that if someone else does it, it's horrific, but if AMERICA does it, then that's an exception, and it's magically awesome now because it was done by AMERICA, and AMERICA can never do wrong!

And because you follow such black-and-white beliefs, you'll never be useful in this world for anything other than cannon fodder.

I never had very much respect for you, but this thread has proven that I gave you far too much benefit of the doubt, and that you are an utterly worthless excuse for a human. You are, in your own words, a sub-human animal, and you brainwashed yourself into that state. You can't even blame your church; you did this all to yourself. The real difference between you and a suicide bomber is that you're far more of a coward, and would never put your brave words into action.

My, serious, condolences to you for your father.

You're talking to the wrong guy though man. Read above about what I think of my (our) federal government. Not only do they sugar coat all the lies, but they're the inventors of "PR" and the world renowned esperts at it. When Hitler did it, according to the history books, it was called propoganda. Every day of our lives we're bombarded by it from both the "right" and the "left", neither of which is ever "right".

When I talk about "ME" and "THEM", that's all I'm doing.... talking about "ME" and "THEM". If there's an "US" in there, it's just trying to build a comradeship, totally outside of any governmental "side". My bad for that.

If you could only live one day in my shoes and deal with my own nerosis about what our own government is doing to us everyday. How everday we are losing more and more rights while our low-level elected politicians are creating new laws for us to abide by while 80% of the 20% of people who even give two shits are falling for the "David Copperfield" misdirection that the office of the presidency ultimately personifies.

Bottom line, if you find a state you love and agree with, move there.

Be active. Be informed. Truly teach your kids to be and make it fun for them.

Vote in local politics.

Dissuade your idiot friends from even voting, because they'll only vote for the best looking or best speaker in our "American Idol" culture, especially the children who were born into it.

I've seen your posts before Kwicko. I KNOW a lot of your stuff is too left winged for me to agree with, but I don't attack you for it.

I think you're also just about enough right winged on other issues to make us a nearly perfect match if we could hash out all the bullshit without tearing each other apart.

I've always said that the "sides" thing is bullshit.

I've always said that I'd probably agree with 60%-70% or more with any single American on any vast issues we discuss, no matter where their political compass lies.

You and I fighting here does nothing for the RWED. It does nothing for the fans of Firefly who may step into the unknown and see what older folks who loved the show think. What we're doing right now is alienating people.

I'm not berating you and your opinions at all.

I truly hope you really read this post, and you post your own arguments to each of the points, just as I have posted to your 3-4 posts you've felt strongly enough to post against in the last 24 hours.

Let's do it as friends. Maybe we're coming from a different side, but both with the desire to make this miserable world a better place for us, and our family, and our future.

In the end, I really believe that we're not too much different than each other.

As an aside, as an olive branch to you, I will discontinue speaking of the brainwashed Middle Easterners as "animals". Granted, I have already been swayed by the opinions of several people who are more politically aligned with my own views than you, I want to tell it to YOU, personally, that I will not refer to the terrorists as animals again in the RWED, or anywhere else.

Later,
~6

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

EDITED TO ADD:

Just wanted to give my condolences one more time to your father.

My uncle, who ended up being an honorary brother to me, also served in Nam. When times were tight, my grandmother took me in, and I lived off of BS jobs and credit cards for nearly 4 years and he was living there. We had so many great nights drinking and getting high and watching Survivor and Lost and he would show me great music of the 70's and I would show him great music of the 90's-early-2000's. When I bought him his first CD player for his birthday, he we got in a fight because he didn't want his nephew buying him an expensive gift. When I convinced him that CD players had been out for about 15 years and I only spent 30 bucks on it he relented. He then started to ask me for songs he knew, back in the Napster heyday. I thank him for showing me a lot of songs I never would have loved today.

Nearly a year after I got my good job, out of state, that allowed me to buy this rehab-foreclosure with cash after 5 years, he shot himself in the head in the garage. He put up double layers of poly sheeting everywhere and he even brought in my grandma's and aunts groceries and luggage in the house before he did it. Cleanup was little, but my aunt heard him after the fact... not even the shot. She went outside and it sounded like an animal was in pain. To open that door and see her older brother bleeding through two sides of his head... I can't imagine that... I hear those malignant bastards at the hospital kept him barely alive for over a day before he told them to

off!

I didn't step foot into that house for nearly 2 years, and I don't ever go into the garage.

He left everything to me.....

There's no money.

He had 87 cents left in his bank account (but no credit debt)....

Just his knife from Germany, a few peweter beer stines, all of the CD's I made for him over the years I lived there, and 3 notebooks worth of his journals.

I haven't been able to listen to those CD's while reading that journal today, 5 years later..... I know how much it would hurt.

My Mom and Step-Dad made something for me though. My Mom blew up a picture of my uncle holding me lovingly while I was a baby wearing a Chicago Bears baby suit. My Step-Dad made a beautiful Maple frame for it and had the glass cut.

My Uncle's name was Gary.

He was a great man.

A great man who was never asked to do anything in the real world....

A genius plagued his entire life by his genius....

God, sometimes I wish I was about 50 IQ points stupider....

If I can't make it with this house and no mortgage and minimal property taxes, I deserve to fall by the wayside.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:18 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Quicko, I know you've mentioned your dad and I think I've said it before, but I'm sorry for his passing and the manner it happened in, agent orange is rut nasty stuff.

Jack, I'm sorry about your uncle, it sounds like you two were really close and had a special relationship and cared about each other a lot. He sounds like he was a nice and caring person.

I guess he just couldn't do it anymore. :(

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:17 PM

I think the point bein made Jack - was that most people, even when they do the most outrageous things, think they're the good guy, that they are in the right, because they need to believe that to keep goin.

Factually, they're right less than half the time.

Part of the REASON I self-identify as a villain is cause I know damn well I ain't one of the good guys.
But, yanno, I'm better than most of the bad guys.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 9:12 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Sometimes thinking like a villain is called for. If you can think like them, two steps ahead of their villany, then you can outsmart them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Jack, I'm sorry about your uncle, it sounds like you two were really close and had a special relationship and cared about each other a lot. He sounds like he was a nice and caring person.

I guess he just couldn't do it anymore. :(

Hey Riona,

Thanks :smile"

Gary really was a great guy. He had infinite potential but was plagued his entire life by his own demons. He never once sought help for his issues, and I really believe that he was just in a lot of physical pain from the abuse he gave his body at the end (possibly/probably numerous undiagnosed cancers), on top of all of his spiritual/psychological pain he suffered through his entire life. This was actually his 3rd suicide attempt, his first being when he was only 8 years old. The second, only one week before my parents got married.

I've never met anybody in my life as intelligent and as book read as he was. His mind was like tack paper that remembered quotes and facts he'd read 40 years ago. He would have been a regular on Jeopardy for months if he ever had the desire to.

He was also very well aware of how flawed he was, and although I'm sure he didn't project his feelings about himself to anyone else, he really cared about me and most of his "life lessons" were really just how not to live like he did.

He loved Simon and Garfunkle, and I did too. I'd say the song that would be his theme song was "I am a Rock"

Those were some really good times. Just chilling, watching Lost and Survivor and listening to great music and bullshiting with the smartest person I've ever known.

I sure wish I got those smart genes. My old man has them too. Maybe they skip a generation?

It's so sad that only his family came to Gary's funeral. When his brother died 4 years later of cancer, my other Uncle Carm who got me started playing guitar, I was amazed at how many people showed up. In the end, he was very much a loner as well, but there were so many people there that the pews were filled and people were standing out in the lobby. He was a journalist. I had no idea how many people he touched in his life. Too bad his OCD became so chronic that he pushed them all away the last few decades of his life.

I'm a lot like both if them in many ways. All I can do is try to emulate as much of their positive traits and kill off any of their negative traits inside of me. Carm's dream for years was to move into a nice Indiana town and get a job at a local paper here. I'm not a journalist, but I'm living the other half of his dream now. I wish he were still here to see it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I think the point bein made Jack - was that most people, even when they do the most outrageous things, think they're the good guy, that they are in the right, because they need to believe that to keep goin.

Factually, they're right less than half the time.

Part of the REASON I self-identify as a villain is cause I know damn well I ain't one of the good guys.
But, yanno, I'm better than most of the bad guys.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Hey Frem,

Of course, you're right.

The true definition of crazy is somebody that is totally mad but doesn't even question their own sanity.

Factually speaking though, only hindsight is 20/20. That, and history is written by the winners. Had Germany won in WWII, what we all read as "fact" in Social Studies in America today would be a completely different book from front to back.

You are NO villain though. Perhaps you have made some choices that you lose sleep over, or you even do things you're not proud of when you know nobody is watching, but in the end, at the very least it's a wash.

You make things happen. Good things. In the end, although others might not agree with the tactics, I believe the ends justify the means.

I feel like you many days too man... and I don't do 1/10th the shit you do for other people.

When I need to just sit back and relax and stop judging myself, I fall back and listen to one of the best songs ever made....

Good Intentions, by Toad the Wet Sprocket....

If I had a theme song, this would probably be it

Oh yeah, and so I'm not accused of the HUGE thread jack I performed here, let me just state again, on topic, that I a no longer referring to brainwashed Middle Easterners as animals.

Thanks to everyone here for straightening me out on that. When people I agree with on 99% of the issues tell me I'm wrong, I'm big enough of a man to take a step back and re-evauluate my stance.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:34 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

If little ones try to commit suicide that young then they probably have some notable mental health challenges. Fighting a war probably compounded it because that can bring about more mental health issues sometimes. My friend's niece just joined up and she already has childhood PTSD, I wish that she could tell them and they could intentionally give her assignments that aren't where fighting will be going on, there's lots of things she could do that aren't fighting and still be in the military, desk jobs, disaster relief etc.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You make things happen. Good things. In the end, although others might not agree with the tactics, I believe the ends justify the means.

I don't - that's a trap, you fall into that and eventually the ends BECOME the means.

See, with me, sure I play rough or dirty, but I don't claim moral high ground or shift the blame, nor do I insist that others assist or agree, cause those sins, those are *MY* sins, and mine alone.
And should I ever have to answer for them in the hereafter, well, that's between me and my hereafter, right ?

But justify it ?
Oh hell no - DO it, sure, but that whole justification/rationalization thing is pure bunk, and half of how people wind UP doing evil in the name of good, so I keep my eyes open and acknowledge the ill I do, to do less would demean any good that happens to come of it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, March 16, 2012 3:51 PM

I get you Frem.

What you say makes perfect sense to me actually, and I really appreciate that you suffer the blows that your own conscience deals to you for things you need to do every day. That really must be one massive boulder you carry on your shoulders.

Some of the scariest people the world has ever seen have taken tactics that you have but were so convinced that they were the "good guy" while doing them that their actions escalated to the point of insanity and megalomania when their conscious no longer played a factor.

I'm not justifying your actions. I'm just saying that I appreciate them. I realize that when you're fighting battles for a good cause against some of the worst of humanity that you probably find yourself having to sink to levels even lower than even they comfortably tread on a daily basis.

My only question to you, and this is not a challenge, but given my new understanding of your world and how you see yourself, I'm curious about posts we had together years ago. Although I'm too young to have followed Hunter Thompson when he was young, I was a big fan of his work in the last half-decade of his life. You "poo pooed" that idea because of some closed door thing he allegedly was involved in.

I'm just wondering if A) Maybe he just got himself over his head in the DARK BS to get a story (even if he found himself enjoying it or not), kind of like a lot of undercover Narcs end up being junkies themselves.... and B) If maybe the reason that he killed himself was because demons of the past that had been haunting him for years had finally caught up to him.

I know you're not too fond of him, but forgive me for saying, you're the one person in my life that I converse with on a semi-regular basis that, at least in my mind, is very Hunteresque.

Take that as a compliment or an insult, but however you take it realize that it was meant 100% as a compliment.

Keep fighting the good fight.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, March 16, 2012 4:27 PM

Hey Riona,

Childhood PTSD, huh? I've never even heard of that. Funny, since I'm probably a survivor of it. I was never physically abused, by either my real parents or my step-parents, but up until I moved out of my Mom and Step-Dad's house when I was 19, I walked on eggshells constantly. Even though I was a usually straight A student, a wrestler, and i didn't do drugs and rarely drank all through high school, any little mistake I'd make along the way was blown into epic proportions constantly. I had to be the most grounded kid in my high school that had a 3.8 GPA year after year.

I think half the reason I got drunk 7 nights a week and started getting high all the time after I got my first apartment was because if I had to do all that time, I was finally going to commit a crime.

There were several 5 year or more periods between 16 and 29 where I didn't talk at all to either set of "rents". It feels good to be able to be a part of everyone's life again. Part of that is because they've all grown up and lightened up, another part of that is because I'm completely self sufficient and have no need to every come back to them and ask them for anything. It's liberating to know in the back of my own mind that I can just tell any one of them to "F-Off" if I even sense they're going to encroach me. They're at that stage of their life where they definitely need me more than I need them.

I'm going on 33 now though and not married. I can't even see that happening in the near future. Even being as successful as I am compared to my Uncles, and most Americans, I kind of think that "Lone Wolf" is my future as well.

I don't trust anybody, particularly women. That's not a knock on the female of the species... it's just an observation and confession of my own neurosis that I can't seem to get a hold of.

So I just go on, burying myself deep in this project, or that cause, and every year I get older.

At least my tombstone will be able to say that I really made something of myself, and a large part of my activity was helping other people. I may not have 400 people coming to my funeral like Carm did, but I'd be surprised if the turnout wasn't at least 100 or more.

I still believe that I'm prepping myself to marry a young beautiful girl with a great kid who needs a leg-up like my Dad did in his second marriage when he was 40 and she was 20. She is the sweetest person I know, and both her own kid and their shared kids are my brothers and I love and respect the hell out of them and what they're making of themselves in their life with their full rides to collage paid.

I couldn't bear bringing my own child into the world we live in today, but if I could be the cornerstone for a beautiful girl and mentor her otherwise fatherless child into being a successful man like my old man did with my brothers, I can't imagine a better life than that....

As far as your friend's niece goes, it's a pity that it's 2012 today. 1999 or 2000, she probably wouldn't have passed the mental health examination to be allowed in. Today they're desperate.... Short of taking amputees, Meth Addicts, or starting a new Draft, they'll pretty much take anyone who will sign the dotted line. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in 10 years they even stopped drug testing randomly.

UPS hires anyone. That's because the turnover rate is so high and if they shot for the stars with every new hire but only offered them 2 bucks over minimum wage for some of the shittiest hours and shittiest pay of any job in the world they'd never hire anyone. It won't be long until Uncle Sam doesn't give two shits that his new recruits smoke 2 packs a day and smoek an ounce of weed in a month.

Unfortunately for her, she's Government property for the next 4 years (and maybe more). If anything she's having to do gets to be too much for her, the best solution she could hope for is an honorable discharge for mental health issues.

I hope you all tried to dissuade her from going in. I also hope nobody in the family berates her if she gets herself discharged in the future.

Who knows though?

Maybe the military is what she needed to straighten herself out. This could be the best thing that ever happened to her. I know it was for my old man.

Hell... I grew up learning a lot of great things from him and never even had to join up to learn them. I don't know a single other 32 year old college drop out that owns a house with no mortgage today.

Emulate the good... throw away the bad

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, March 16, 2012 9:06 PM

Well, my annoyance with Gonzo comes of the one time it really DID get too weird for him, and while this is gonna get maybe woo-woo weird, all but the tiniest portion of this is documented fact.

See, back then there was the whole "Snuff films are a myth" thing going on, and consider, consider well that organ smuggling, the hellcamps, abuse within the catholic church, a lot of things were considered myth and urban legend in order to avoid dealing with the ugly and horrifying realities of them.

And so Gonzo found himself in the Franklin-Boystown-Bohemian Grove pipeline somewhere, probably introduced to the principals by one Russel "Rusty" Nelson, Rusty was the photographer who took pictures at their little kid-humping initiation parties, what you call "The Hook", as how they got them "on-side" and in the game, thus ensuring the ruling cartels lock on them.
I think that Gonzo went into the matter with less than noble intentions, since there was a $150,000.00USD bounty out for "proof" of a snuff film as a mock on the idea, and consider that in hindsight some of the folk making the loudest noise about such things being urban legend were at least tenatively connected to this - plus Gonzo being Gonzo, the strangeness and weirdness of it drew him in like a moth to flame.

What, exactly happened at that point is a matter of dispute, as Gonzo never discussed it beyond the vaguest and oblique references, Rusty flat lied about his involvement and when placed at the scene by another witness (who wound up dead with his tongue ripped out) changed his story often enough no one can believe anything he says - and then it all went to hell for the Franklin-Boystown-BG pipeline, although it was effectively kept out of the public eye and the business end was later picked up by Jack Abramoff resulting in a new cartel, which when thrown down was allegedly picked up by Erik Prince and his cultie-cronies, but no one has hard evidence on them as yet.
(Note: notice how the press avoided mentioning the "prostitutes" Abramoff was providing weren't old enough to drive ?)

My best guess is Gonzo got out while the getting was good and tried to act as if it never happened, but he knew SOMETHING, as both the guy who wound up dead and Rusty placed him at the scene...

And then out of the blue many years later Rusty gets pulled in and questioned, then dissapeared, I mentioned it here when it happened as a matter of fact - and almost immediately thereafter Gonzo committed "suicide" - although how he did so with a gun that had a full mag, no round in the chamber and a clean, unfired bore kind of mystifies me.
My best guess there is that he was actively cooperative in being suicided for reasons of his own, cause I can't see Gonzo going down easy if he had gun in hand, unless he wanted to, wasn't his style yanno ?

I continued to hope for a while he had a death-box, or some kind of contingency in which that would come out after he was gone, but apparently he took the truth to his grave, however awful it was - and it annoys me cause Gonzo never really backed down on anything, EXCEPT that.
I actually am quite fond of him, it's just that I feel he choked on that one, and he shouldn't have.

I'll also have you know that since, I have picked up the entire Vertigo run of Transmetropolitan and very much enjoyed it, I looooooved that rant in "Monstering" when he just goes ballistic (again) about hounding the bastards who hound us.

Oh, and regarding your aloofness - I suspect you might wanna run the Myers-Briggs again, cause I'd lay odds your life experiences and introspection since have moved you closer to ISTP.
Just, some of the things you've said trip the same switches for me I think they do for you.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 10:16 AM

Quote Babbling-Jack: "these 'people' are animals."

I guess the foolish and immature among "them" think the same of us.
They've had over 50 years to see how cruel we are. So who can blame them?
I completely agree with Anthony. Disrespecting them demeans us.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:09 PM

We're past that Oonjerah,

I've already said that I will refrain from refering to them as animals.

I believe I even posted another quote in my babbling about "if I was going to spend so many of my years as a kid being treated like a criminal, I was finally going to do the crime", or something along those lines, so I get what you're saying.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:51 PM

ISTP sounds great Frem. I'd love to be considered a Crafter and an Artisan.

As it is, I came up INFJ, an Idealist who would be good at being a Counselor.

Although I agree with the Idealist part, I don't think somebody as plagued as me would make a great "how to do things" person when it comes to life lessons. Although, My uncle Gary was definitely an Idealist, and his approach at "how not to do things" was just as potent.

Maybe I need to just take some B12 supplements and I'll stop worrying about the problems of the world, and then I can focus more on my tools and having a few more spontaneous urges in my life so I can come up with the "right" test results.

About Hunter, I remember what you said about him before. Not the exact words, but a more in-depth description of the Bohemian Grove thing....

Who knows... maybe he diddled a 15 year old girl (or boy) while at BG. I don't believe it, but when you're that far down the rabbit hole, a place that no mere mortal ever gets a chance to go, well... when in Rome.... right?

If anything like that happened, even if he didn't say anything about it or his experience there other than vague references, I truly believe it was because what ever he saw and/or did there was so depraved that it would not only ruin his life and reputation if it came out, but he might as well have painted a Scarlett A on every single person he was related to or associated with.

Unlike the temptations and addictions that the undercover Narcs face when going under deep cover, he was high profile enough to get into something that 99.9% of us would never even be able to touch.

If something like that really happened Frem, I think it's just a matter of time before it comes out. Don't give up on HT just because he's been dead for a few years.

A guy like that doesn't die without swinging unless he had an ace up his sleeve.

My belief is that sometime when I'm old and grey and near death that something will come out. A "media-time-bomb" that was just festering for years. (Think, Doc sending Marty McFly a FedEx package from 1885 to the very spot that Marty was standing on in 1985, and Joe Flaherty commenting on how he lost a bet that Marty would be there 100 years later to accept the package)

Secrets that were so horrific that he died for them. Not to save his own reputation and die a meaningless death, but to save his loved ones from the media barrage they'd receive if it came out now.

If Hunter TRULY was that deep in the rabbit hole, what was he supposed to do? Not partake (and maybe die as a consequence). Tell everyone what he saw after the fact, which would be impossible if he ruined his own credibility (think of Denzel Washington forcing Ethan Hawk to smoke the wiki-water weed). If he told anybody about it, he might as well have been the only Celebrity that was ever abducted by aliens and then told everyone the truth.

5% might believe him, but 20% of the rest would think he'd just finally gone crazy from the drugs, and the other 75% would believe anything the media told them to believe.

I'm glad you said you liked the guy, otherwise.

Wish there were more like him in the media spotlight.

Everyone we have is either mindlessly towing whatever line signs their paychecks, or they're mindlessly towing their own party's line...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:50 PM

Well, actually, I'll pass some data to you via PM cause it's too ugly to discuss here.
Worth a note, I crossed paths and for a short time went to school with one of the witnesses, Alisha Owen, before they railroaded her for "perjury" and dumped her into solitary from which she mysteriously and conveniently dissapeared.

Oh, and I got the timing wrong, it was two days AFTER Gonzo got capped that they pulled in, interrogated and disappeared Rusty Nelson.

Beyond that, we're never likely to know Bill Colbys involvement neither, since he apparently decided to stand up right in the middle of lunch while eating it and go kayakking and conveniently have a "heart attack" and drown - yeah, right.
The why of that had nothing to do with this, but that loose end is unfortunately tied as well.

From the pieces though, a picture emerges and an ugly one - it's just that nobody has enough proof to drag it into a courtroom and nobody sane dares investigate not just out of fear of what might happen to them or their own sanity - but because they DO NOT WANT TO KNOW.
And given that the cartel in question is long destroyed (although not the games in question, which continued via Abramoff and now Prince) I am not sure what the point of bringing it all to light would be, what good it might serve.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We're past that Oonjerah,

I've already said that I will refrain from refering to them as animals.

I believe I even posted another quote in my babbling about "if I was going to spend so many of my years as a kid being treated like a criminal, I was finally going to do the crime", or something along those lines, so I get what you're saying.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

Finally you see the reality of the situation. These are an entire people, nations worth, who have been systematically "grounded" by the West for generations, pounded into the earth, told they were nothing, would never be anything, and had better accept that idea and the yoke and chain from their "betters".

And after long enough under the hammer, you eventually come to the realization that if indeed you are a nail, you also have the ability to inflict pain and poke the guy doing the hammering. Sometimes you just want the suffering to stop, and if that means an end to all you are and all you ever were, then so be it, as long as you get to take a few of the bastards along with you.

I don't AGREE with the mindset of suicide bombers, but I can certainly understand where and how they come to have that mindset. And believe it or not, so can you.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:44 PM

By the way, Frem & Jack - Did y'all by any chance watch AMC's short-lived series "Rubicon"? If not, you should probably track it down when (if) it comes out on DVD. Very much one of the "how deep down the rabbit hole do you really want to go?" kind of shows, dealing with security theatre, terrorist threats, and who and how far they really go.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:14 AM

Yes, and it was apallingly accurate - prolly why they cancelled it.

See, most of em did their real drinking at a pre-fab on post we called the black shack, since it limited the possibility of them saying something "out of school" while soused - and having already done some computer and other work for that crowd (which to this day I bitterly, bitterly regret cause it enabled them to set up the Main Core PROMIS database, or at least it's precursor, via the 902MI) there was the assumption that I was "in the know" and even if not officially cleared, wasn't someone you had to watch your mouth around...

Ergo I would play bartender for the crusty old bastards and listen to their stories, all the while planning to twist a knife in them fuckers the first chance I got, cause it really did illustrate just how much of a farce the nominal civilian "control" over the military and intel crowed is - they'll do what they'll do, lie about it, feed false information to congress, anything and everything to get their way, and be damned to anything else.

And if it ever comes to a head on that, the mask will come off and you'll see how REALLY ugly that can get - I think by now it's more or less an open secret that Kennedys intent to dismantle the evil manipulative bastards after the shit they pulled in regards to Cuba was the cause of his untimely demise.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:18 PM

Kennedys, Jack and Bobby ... They offed 'em both.

Thus the need for more n more people power.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Hi jack, I find your attitudes extreme.

One thing I remember after 9/11 was how quickly attidudes hardened in the US to acceptance of pre emptive action, torture, indefinite incarceration without trial of 'enemy combatants'. That was after one attack, a bad one admitedly, but to me it scraped away a facade of American values of being the good guys. I thought it was a petulant, childish response from a nation that has been so priveledged and so lucky.

That is how 'bad guys' are created. Exactly what Anthony has pointed out, dehumanise the enemy and then it doesn't matter what you do to him because he's not even a human being. The end result of your way of thinking IS strapping on the bomb, or blowing up Mecca, or razing the Middle East because it doesn't meet your standards. That is the kind of extremist thinking that has led to some pretty shocking atrocities in the past.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 2:34 PM

I beg your pardon, Magons!
We're nowhere near done with our atrocious "peace keeping."

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 3:27 PM

I appreciate your input, Magonsdaughter....

I know this is a long thread, so I don't fault you for not reading it all before posting your opinions, but I have.... with the help of my Right and Left and Libertarian and Anarchist friends here, tempered my viewpoints.

Though I hold true that these people have been completely brainwashed to the point that all humanity has been sucked right out of their mind body and soul, I will refrain from calling them animals anymore.

That being said, I'm too burdened with worrying about me and my own to "fix" them, especially in this economy. I leave that duty to everyone here, on any "side" of the political spectrum who spoke up and said that I was wrong.

I truly do wish you all luck with that, and I hope that these empty shells of people, with your help, can once again rejoin the human race before they kill themselves and potentially 10's of thousands of people.

These words are 100% sincere,
~6

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I appreciate your input, Magonsdaughter....

I know this is a long thread, so I don't fault you for not reading it all before posting your opinions, but I have.... with the help of my Right and Left and Libertarian and Anarchist friends here, tempered my viewpoints.

Though I hold true that these people have been completely brainwashed to the point that all humanity has been sucked right out of their mind body and soul, I will refrain from calling them animals anymore.

That being said, I'm too burdened with worrying about me and my own to "fix" them, especially in this economy. I leave that duty to everyone here, on any "side" of the political spectrum who spoke up and said that I was wrong.

I truly do wish you all luck with that, and I hope that these empty shells of people, with your help, can once again rejoin the human race before they kill themselves and potentially 10's of thousands of people.

These words are 100% sincere,
~6

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

Some of you posts were quite long and rambly and I do admit to skimming. But it seems to me that while you have temperered your language, your have not tempered your views.

To my mind there has been a hell of a lot of brainwashing of Americans, to believe that they are special and unique in the world, that the rest of the world is either just America-lite, on its way to totalitarianism or already there, that the American way of life is something that every should aspire to, but that the benefits of freedom and prosperity are really only meant for Americans (coz its a bit scary when you have prosperous countries with different POV).

I don't think that your understanding of the situation in the Middle East is a particularly sophisticated one, in fact, I'd say you are quite naive or ignorant even. It's not just one big shit hole where people are either brainwashed fanatics or pining away because they cannot watch Justin Beiber. I think this kind of simplistic notions, no doubt shared by many americans and at least one president I can think of, coupled with a lot of power makes America quite a threatening country. And hell, I think that and we're supposed to be one of your closet allies.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:27 PM

ALLIES! NOV 2011, Another USA military base for Australia =>
http://antinuclear.net/2011/11/11/another-usa-military-base-for-austra
lia/

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 5:41 PM