Godless and proud: Atheists rally in D.C. by Geezer

America loves a winner!

Reason in D.C. ?

That's worth a chuckle.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Sunday, March 25, 2012 5:33 AM

Not necessarily a majority, no, but they are the fastest growing religious designation in America.

Grown from 12% at the turn of the century to 18%.

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Sunday, March 25, 2012 5:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pretty slow growth! I think it's all the religion in politics that's causing those of us who aren't Christian to worry, and it's no surprise to me that those with NO religion want to stand up and be counted. Good for them, tho' I fear it won't do any good...can't imagine how exactly, but might even do harm.

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Sunday, March 25, 2012 6:55 PM

You have to compare it to the growth of other religions. Jehova's Witness has grown about 4%, Seventh Day Adventist also 4%, Mormonism is 1.4%.

Then you have to consider the numbers of them. 1 million Jehova's Witnesses, 1 million Seventh Day Adventists, 6 million mormons. 34 million americans (18%) select "no religion" on the census.

Evangelicals are 26%. Catholics represent 22% and 68 million. Baptists are 16 million. Presbyterians are 2 million.

So it's more significant than you might think.

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Monday, March 26, 2012 2:24 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yup, lots of Atheists out there, lots of agnostics too, and lots of other things. I wish our census religeon/belief section just let you write in what you are/believe (suscinctly of course), we'd have a better idea of the numbers that way.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise

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Monday, March 26, 2012 2:44 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

On the fence.... I can respect that.

50/50 to anything that can't be proven, either theoretically or theologically......

Agnostics hold more respect for me than any True Believer or any Atheist.

In my mind, a blind Atheist is just as stupid as a blind Follower.

There's only two differences that make the blind Athiest lose between the two extreme options....

1) Their non belief is derived of nothing. "The Nothing", to quote the Neverending Story. There is absolutely NOTHING to support that there is, never will be, or never will be a God or Godlike creature who made this all possible. To be 100% confident that we're just a universal mistake or a result of Chaos is insanity.

It may be the case, but science could NEVER prove it.

2) At least the mindless true believers on the other end of the spectrum have hope for a future beyond this mediocre existence most of us live.

In the end, who knows.... it may very well be falsely laid beliefs, but we'll only know when we're done. At least the truly religious of my family who have passed had that hope. According to Greek Mythology, after Pandora's Box was open, the only good thing to come of humanity afterward was Hope.

On the fence here (Admittedly Agnostic by design, but I'd really like to one day be a believer)......

I wish I could just take the plunge and believe with my entire being.

For those of you who are hard core atheist out there, I hope you really have a lot to enjoy now. If your life is shitty, and you're an Atheist, I don't know how you even can get out of bed every day.

"Life here sucks balls, and there is nothing after we die"

It's too sad a viewpoint for me to even contemplate without crying for somebody who would be so sure that's the way that it is.

For your sake, to all the unhappy and unfulfilled Atheists out there, I do hope you're wrong.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Monday, March 26, 2012 4:37 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Not necessarily a majority, no, but they are the fastest growing religious designation in America.

Grown from 12% at the turn of the century to 18%.

" Fastest growing ... "

Yeah, that's a classic sort of line that SOUNDS impressive, but once you look at the details, really isn't.

An increase from 1 to 2 is sky rocketing up in size, statistically speaking. But what's that really mean ?

There's hardly anyone in that group, and while it's growing fast now, because damn near any addition is a HUGE increase, it's still a tiny # of members. Unlikely that such an increase will continue on at that pace for very much longer. And then what ?

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Monday, March 26, 2012 6:57 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
For those of you who are hard core atheist out there, I hope you really have a lot to enjoy now.

I do, thank you.

Calling atheism blind, by the way, is ridiculous. And saying that the lack of belief is based on nothing, with an implication that faith is actually based on something, which it isn't, is just stupid. Faith doesn't win by virtue of non-belief being based on nothing; that is the least logical thing I've ever heard.
My non-belief is definitely based on something, in any case. I was never really theistic, but I did search for spiritual answers to some of my problems, and it didn't do a whole lot of good. The big questions in my life were not answered by theology, they were answered by chemistry. Nothing else was helpful to me because things that don't exist don't have any actual impact on the body. The closest thing to helpful was meditation, and certain such practices have been shown to impact chemistry in the nervous system; in some cases, it's even been shown to change the structure somewhat. It takes massive amounts of work to do that sort of practice when you're struggling with the issues such things can help, though, so it's hardly the most efficient solution. And "hope" made me nearly suicidal, because it's empty.
I'm able to enjoy my life much more now that I've found some answers, some things that definitively and empirically improve my state of mind. Good things actually happening in reality beats all the "hopeful" fevered imaginings of the "other side" or afterlife or whatever.
This all is just one of many reasons I could give for not believing in any gods. You think that's based on nothing? Try again.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Monday, March 26, 2012 7:22 PM

OONJERAH

. . .Believer or no, meditation is a great tool.

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Monday, March 26, 2012 11:56 PM

America loves a winner!

Charles Dawrwin showed me the way.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:39 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
On the fence.... I can respect that.

50/50 to anything that can't be proven, either theoretically or theologically......

Agnostics hold more respect for me than any True Believer or any Atheist.

In my mind, a blind Atheist is just as stupid as a blind Follower.

There's only two differences that make the blind Athiest lose between the two extreme options....

1) Their non belief is derived of nothing. "The Nothing", to quote the Neverending Story. There is absolutely NOTHING to support that there is, never will be, or never will be a God or Godlike creature who made this all possible. To be 100% confident that we're just a universal mistake or a result of Chaos is insanity.

It may be the case, but science could NEVER prove it.

2) At least the mindless true believers on the other end of the spectrum have hope for a future beyond this mediocre existence most of us live.

In the end, who knows.... it may very well be falsely laid beliefs, but we'll only know when we're done. At least the truly religious of my family who have passed had that hope. According to Greek Mythology, after Pandora's Box was open, the only good thing to come of humanity afterward was Hope.

On the fence here (Admittedly Agnostic by design, but I'd really like to one day be a believer)......

I wish I could just take the plunge and believe with my entire being.

For those of you who are hard core atheist out there, I hope you really have a lot to enjoy now. If your life is shitty, and you're an Atheist, I don't know how you even can get out of bed every day.

"Life here sucks balls, and there is nothing after we die"

It's too sad a viewpoint for me to even contemplate without crying for somebody who would be so sure that's the way that it is.

For your sake, to all the unhappy and unfulfilled Atheists out there, I do hope you're wrong.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

Hmmm, your logic has flaws in it. There is NOTHING to support the existence of a god or a creator of the universe. People who believe in god, do not do so because of evidence but because of faith.

As someone who does not believe in a god/creator I don't feel either sad or unfulfilled. I have faced death of loved ones and much adversity in my life, and have managed to get through either without faith, but through possessing resilience and having support of loved ones.

The thought that when I die there is nothing does not worry me particularly, as when I don't exist I wont be able to worry about not existing. It does make me ponder my place in the universe and my reason for being, but I don't suppose I'll have any more answers than any other person, religious or otherwise.

I do dread the death of loved ones. But I see that as part of the human condition, which is sometimes unbearable in the face of terrible loss.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:31 AM

Quote:
In my mind, a blind Atheist is just as stupid as a blind Follower.

If your life is shitty, and you're an Atheist, I don't know how you even can get out of bed every day. "Life here sucks balls, and there is nothing after we die"

Flatterer.

Quote:
For your sake, to all the unhappy and unfulfilled Atheists out there, I do hope you're wrong.

Yay, then we can go to hell. I hope you're right; I'm just full of anger, I'd make some damn fine kindling for the fire.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:44 AM

HERO

Athiesm is just bad planning (and an excuse to ignore social morality).

Suppose you die and there's no God. Its not like athiests can celebrate or have an 'I told you so moment'. They are just dead and gone.

Suppose you die and there is a God. Then the athiests are totally screwed. I mean even picking the wrong faith is better then rejecting faith altogether. Suppose you believe in God, its just the wrong one...depending on who is right and who is wrong and what you believe, you might not get an A+ but its still possible to get a passing grade.

The only people destined to fail are the athiests...right or wrong.

I note for the record that reincarnation might be the only exception. I think that means that belief in reincarnation might be the only logical alternative if a person can't find their way to God because absent a God there is really no other alternative except...nothingness.

Is that really what they want? "Son, if you live a good life you have an eternity of nothing to look forward to." Assuming your kid does not blow his brains out...what's to make him want to live any sort of meaningful life. Next thing you know he's shot and killed by a hispanic-jew neighborhood watchman because he decided to bash the poor fella's brains out (according to eyewitnesses and physical evidence at the scene).

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 6:42 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The thought that when I die there is nothing does not worry me particularly, as when I don't exist I wont be able to worry about not existing.

I've said something very similar.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Athiesm is just bad planning (and an excuse to ignore social morality).

Wow, dude, really? You're going to do the "atheists are immoral" thing?

Quote:
Is that really what they want? "Son, if you live a good life you have an eternity of nothing to look forward to."

It's not about want. Wanting never makes anything true. It's also not about winning.

Quote:
...what's to make him want to live any sort of meaningful life.

Um, I dunno, the desire to make the word a better place? Wanting to make his one and only life count for something good in the world? Leaving a legacy that will actually matter to the world that actually exists is not weak motivation. And the implication that everyone is a psychopath held back only by fear of consequences doled out by an invisible sky bully is... well, it's horrifying that anyone would actually think that. It's driven by fear of not only some god-all-powerful, but also of your fellow human beings, and that is sad.
I'm curious how you would define this "social morality" that I am supposedly ignoring because I'm atheistic and don't think anything happens when we die. I would bet that I'm actually more bound by my morals than the average person, because they're based on reality and my own human empathy instead of a millenia-old rulebook that has very little bearing on modern life.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 6:52 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Suppose you die and there is a God. Then the athiests are totally screwed. I mean even picking the wrong faith is better then rejecting faith altogether. Suppose you believe in God, its just the wrong one...depending on who is right and who is wrong and what you believe, you might not get an A+ but its still possible to get a passing grade.

Which is exactly one of the more annoying things about religious people - some are in it just to maximize their chances of someday being able to thumb their nose and say "ha-ha! I'm right!" For these people, (which aren't ALL religious people!) religion is just a way to feel superior. And they use it. "Oh yeah, you think you're right and I"m wrong?" they may sputter. "But, but... but you're going to HELL, my Bible says so, so I still feel good about myself, and BETTER THAN YOU, though I have no other leg to stand on here!"

Really, I laugh at those who equate atheism to unhappiness or emptiness. The beauty of the universe I live in is far more inspiring to me, and full of joy, then the righteousness and false superiority of having an imaginary deity always at my back (or on my back, and seems more often the case).

This makes me strong, not empty. I have my own reasons to persevere, to do the right thing, to make my life meaningful and enjoyable. No one can take that from me. I'll never have the moment that Mal had in Serenity Valley, because I don't believe any power is out to get me, or to betray me by not agreeing with my personal cause. If things turn shitty, as they have and will continue to do now and then, I have no reason to feel bitter or betrayed. I have no reason to behave horribly, as some religious people do when they feel God turns against them. I have my own strength and direction to help me recover.

Quote:
Is that really what they want? "Son, if you live a good life you have an eternity of nothing to look forward to." Assuming your kid does not blow his brains out...what's to make him want to live any sort of meaningful life.

Because a meaningful life is meaningful! Why is that not enough for you? (Because you've been trained... ? to give up meaning now for reward later... ? Hmm....)

Living "good" just because you expect a reward seems completely meaningless, selfish, and shallow to me. Living "good" because you want life to be beautiful, enjoyable, and fulfilling - for everyone, not just yourself - is the Way.

I worship reality, not imaginary friends who reward me.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Athiesm is just bad planning (and an excuse to ignore social morality).

Suppose you die and there's no God. Its not like athiests can celebrate or have an 'I told you so moment'. They are just dead and gone.

Suppose you die and there is a God. Then the athiests are totally screwed. I mean even picking the wrong faith is better then rejecting faith altogether. Suppose you believe in God, its just the wrong one...depending on who is right and who is wrong and what you believe, you might not get an A+ but its still possible to get a passing grade.

Ah. Pascal's Wager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:38 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm with Magons and Rose. I'm still on the fence about reincarnation, but I don't really need to know. Pretty much everything they said goes for me; especially the judgmental stuff about those who've written what they have about atheists.

Quote:
Athiesm is just bad planning (and an excuse to ignore social morality).

Is an absurd statement to me; how about those of us who feel strongly about the rightness of "social morality" despite needing no "god" to reward us?

For me, striving to be the best person I can is quite sufficient "purpose" in life. Simply judging my own actions, both with acceptance and the desire to do better, helps me view others with tolerance as well--I don't need some patriarchal father figure to judge me; that would mean I do what I do in order to win their acceptance, to go to some "heaven", which for ME is a false concept. If "God" is as loving as some contend, it's illogical to me that he would condemn some to "hell" simply because they don't believe in him, rather than for who they've been in life. That someone who goes to church on Sunday but behaves badly toward others would go to heaven just because they worship God, while someone who has been kind and decent goes to "hell" because they DON'T worship him is, to me, crazy.

Magons beautifully described how I feel in her last post, so I'll let her speak for me.

I've learned too much about religions to feel comfortable with them. Man has always worshipped something or someone, who and what they worship has changed mightily over time, and some of what they worshipped and how they did so is anathema to me. The reasons for religion make a lot of sense as to why they've existed; fear of the unknown, needing something to promise heaven when life is horrible, feeling "safer" doing what someone else tells you to believe/do, feeling only you (and those who believe like you) know the "truth", instilling that sense of social morality so that people can get along, and on and on. They are all very good reasons for religion to have existed in one form or another, but hopefully someday mankind won't NEED them anymore, in which case they won't "need" a god to worship. That one religion is "right" and another is wrong, that those believing in God go to heaven while everyone else, of other religions or none, goes to hell, seems silly to me, especially as it gives each religion reason to damn other religions.

There are SO many inconsistencies in every religion, it's always amazed me that people can be so absolute about their beliefs, especially those who put all their faith unquestioningly in the Bible!

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:46 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Reincarnation has always struck me as an odd belief.

You will be born again into a new form. You won't remember anything you learned and you will pay for all of your mistakes.

It never felt fair to me.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:50 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Suppose you die and there is a God. Then the athiests are totally screwed. I mean even picking the wrong faith is better then rejecting faith altogether. Suppose you believe in God, its just the wrong one...depending on who is right and who is wrong and what you believe, you might not get an A+ but its still possible to get a passing grade.

Hello,

I've never believed that God would screw people over for making best guesses with limited information.

Nor that having an "I told you so" party should be a motivating factor in religion.

I believe God is better than that. A disinterested God would be better than one that punishes people for making the wrong guess about how life works.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 7:58 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The saddest people I've ever met are atheists.

Not "sad" as in pathetic, selfish, spoiled, arrogant, holier-than-tho... (tho, most are)

But SAD, as in depressed... hopeless.

ETA: So, your father raises you from crapping yourself, and eating garbage, to be a young adult (evolution), then gives you a home for free, in a nice neighborhood (Earth)...

Your home has a burst pipe because of the cold (natural disaster)... and some of your neighbors decide to rob you and kill your family (crime, war and general humans choosing evil)...

Your father also gives you a library of books (Bible, Koran, etc) to teach you rules and how to live with each other, and build a better neighborhood...

Do you curse your father for having made you, deny his existence? Or be grateful for the chance at life, and building a better neighborhood for everyone?

Atheists don't surprise me. They are just sad.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:11 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The saddest people I've ever met are atheists.

Not "sad" as in pathetic, selfish, spoiled, arrogant, holier-than-tho... (tho, most are)

But SAD, as in depressed... hopeless.

I somehow feel like I've already countered this, but I'll repeat myself; I was far more depressed when I was not quite atheist. I was essentially agnostic and terribly depressed. I feel better about life now than I ever did.

Consider, also, that people may battle with depression and come to the conclusion that there is no god, or at least that god will never help them. Odds are the depression predates the disbelief in god, not the other way around.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:23 AM

Quote:
Really, I laugh at those who equate atheism to unhappiness or emptiness.

Well. I'm just getting it from both sides then.

I have a distinct advantage in being a tedious depressing wretch, in that the more cynical I get, the more accurate my assessments and predictions are.

Unfortunately, that is the way the world works.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Some would say that free-will is the greatest curse we ever got.

I used to agree.

I deny that now.

I believe, instead its our greatest gift.

You can choose to be evil, or good. Choose to take responsibility for the choice, one way or the other.

Now multiply that by 7+ billion.

The fact that we haven't eradicated ourselves by now, gives me hope. Shows me that people are generally good.

There is good, there is evil, there is choice. Yours.

Now as to what will prove there is a God, or not. Well its faith. And you can't prove there is, or isn't, a God.

Still, atheists are the saddest people I ever met.

No hope. No joy. No future.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:06 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

As usual, Wulf, you appear to only view things through your own experience, and seem incapable of conceiving of anything else. Your entire judgment of atheists is drawn from your own belief in a god, so to you they can only be "sad". It appears you're incapable of grasping what Magons wrote, and how it goes against everything you have judged about atheists. Because your experience has been of sad atheists (how many, I wonder?), that seems to me all you can imagine. It's terribly sad, because it locks you into not being able to see or grasp the bigger world, and I'm guessing it's part of why you haven't shown any evidence of being able to grow or evolve.

I guess we buddhists have to be considered "atheists" because we have no god. Everything Magons wrote is true for me, and for all who truly follow the path of the bodhisattva. The world is a magical place full of wonders for us; we don't need some god to have "created" it for it to be that way. Death is just an end to that wonder; we can appreciate it while we're alive and don't need some "better place" to look forward to. Personally, I can't imagine a better place or better life than what this one has to offer, and given you preach constantly that life is what we make of it, if it's bad, we only have ourselves to blame, right? For me, bad things that happen are just bad things, in some cases things we can learn from, but never punishments or trials for which someone else judges us.

Your post is actually an eloquent example of your thinking. It totally ignores what Rose, Magons and I have written about how we experience the world, it judges everything from your firm belief of religion, it condemns atheists' lives through only how you view things, and totally ignores the reality of atheism. That's pretty much how you view everything: Your way is the only way and everything and everyone else is judged through that "veil". Which is actually what makes you sadder than anyone else. I don't think you do it deliberately, as some here do, but more out of ignorance and inability to see outside your experience.

As to reincarnation, Anthony, as I've said I'm still on the fence myself. In some ways it makes perfect sense; we're given numerous lives to learn what we need to learn; since mankind is a very slow learner, I like that. But the idea of reincarnation as specified by buddhism seems too complex and not as logical as I can accept, so I just let it be. You do have one thing wrong, tho'. One is not always "rewarded" for a good life...most of the time we learn something by the end of our lives; as there are many things to learn, we're given the opportunity to learn different things from differnt lives. So one might live a life considered "good" in that they are generous, but the next life might be very hard so that they need to learn acceptance, and so forth. A good life definitely does not guarantee an easier life the next time around, you see? That sounds like there has to be someone outside ourselves who decides what we need to learn, but the concept is that we decide ourselves, just not consciously. I guess you could say we set our own fate in that way, but it's more complex than that. IF we ever learn it "all" (which nobody but Buddha has ever managed), we ascend to a "higher plane", but that plane isn't heaven, it's becoming "one with everything", part of the whole, so we don't have individuality anymore.

If you think about it, it's kind of an extrapolation of my idea of mankind disappearing; if we ALL achieved that higher plane, we would be part of everything and the world would be improved, as we wouldn't be around to build, pollute, destroy, etc. Our "perfection" would actually enhance what's around us and hopefully our advanced spirit would have a positive effect on the universe. Kind of like BEING the "force"--or at least one with it. Unfortunately, I have no hope this will ever actually happen--or at least happen before we self-destruct, so it wouldn't have the opportunity. I can live on hope and appreciate what's around me, nonetheless.

Some forms of buddhism believe something outside ourselves DOES "decide" such things, and since that indicates some higher power making the decisions, I can't accept that. Buddhism has evolved as all faiths have, and originally I think it was much closer to a religion, and has stuck that way in some places and some forms of buddhism. But buddhism is different every place it's practiced (as, actually, are all faiths). Oops, I've gotten sidetracked into talking about buddhism again; sorry, just wanted to clear up that one point and, as usual, started to ramble. I'll stop now. ;o)

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:10 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Do you curse your father for having made you, deny his existence? Or be grateful for the chance at life, and building a better neighborhood for everyone?

Hello,

What a terribly disingenuous question.

Unless you have had the profoundly rare experience of meeting God personally, your faith is likely based on what someone told you or someone wrote down.

Yet you somehow see Atheists as people who have scorned their father. Nonsense.

Walk into any large bookstore and go to the religious text section. Look at that wall of books. A monolith of best-guesses in a cornucopia of flavors.

And none of them with a lick of actual evidence to support them.

Atheism is probably the most logical and reasoned position to take, and involves no scorn against a disowned father.

It's not the route I have taken, but I at least have the decency to acknowledge that I am believing one thing from a plethora of equally likely (or even unlikely) possibilities. There's no need to assign negative or hateful motives to someone who chooses another path.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gawd, Wulf, the first part of that last post actually describes buddhism, tho' I realize you won't accept that.

It stops at "there is good, there is evil." I don't believe in good and evil; I believe people DO things that are good and evil, but there are myriad complex reasons people DO and THINK things. That doesn't make the people themselves good or evil.

As to no hope, joy or future, that's where you revert to your own experinece. As an apparent "atheist" in that I don't believe in a god, I have TONS of hope, joy and future--and Magons and Rose have tried to explain why we have, but you glossed right over that to hold up the atheists you "know" as sad. The world isn't made up of only what YOU know, I wish you could grasp that. The world, and the people in it, are made up of more than what you experience, I wish you could grasp that, too. Because you seem to have SOME ability to grasp what we are capable of, but can't go beyond what you see around you.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:13 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Nonsense-Niki,

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?

Your Buddhism is very Californicated.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:32 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Some would say that free-will is the greatest curse we ever got.

I used to agree.

I deny that now.

I believe, instead its our greatest gift.

You can choose to be evil, or good. Choose to take responsibility for the choice, one way or the other.

That's atheism dude - if you are a christian you have rules and commandments to tell you how to behave, you have less free-will. Atheists behave well not because there's a treat waiting for them but because they take personal responsibility and don't ask for forgiveness from Super Dad if they screw up.
I don't think you or 6 get it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 9:45 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?

Hello,

If I look under Irony in the Encyclopedia Universal, there will be a photograph of Wulf uttering this quote.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:04 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The saddest people I've ever met are atheists.

Not "sad" as in pathetic, selfish, spoiled, arrogant, holier-than-tho... (tho, most are)

But SAD, as in depressed... hopeless.

ETA: So, your father raises you from crapping yourself, and eating garbage, to be a young adult (evolution), then gives you a home for free, in a nice neighborhood (Earth)...

Your home has a burst pipe because of the cold (natural disaster)... and some of your neighbors decide to rob you and kill your family (crime, war and general humans choosing evil)...

Your father also gives you a library of books (Bible, Koran, etc) to teach you rules and how to live with each other, and build a better neighborhood...

Do you curse your father for having made you, deny his existence? Or be grateful for the chance at life, and building a better neighborhood for everyone?

Atheists don't surprise me. They are just sad.

That argument does not work when you considerer that no good father sets down rules and than will watch as his children break them and hurt themselves or others.

A good parents sets down rules to protect their children and than disciplines them so that they learn and respect those rules. God does not do this. His punishments are final and brutal, in the Old Testament. His ultimate punishment is sending people into a lake of fire for all eternity, at which there is not learning.

From your description I doubt you have ever met an Atheist. It is really quite freeing not to have to worry about how small things may damn you to hell. It is also quite nice to realize that when you help someone else you are doing it because you want to, and not to gain a place in Heaven.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"That's atheism dude - if you are a christian you have rules and commandments to tell you how to behave, you have less free-will. Atheists behave well not because there's a treat waiting for them but because they take personal responsibility and don't ask for forgiveness from Super Dad if they screw up.
I don't think you or 6 get it."

Cept, I know you don't get a treat for doing right. Mostly, you get a kick in the teeth, and someone pissing in your face.

Its not the great lottery of the universe that makes people do the right thing. If I do X, I can finally rest after... is bullshit.

Doing right, is good for its own reasons. But knowing that there is someone looking out... hell that gives a person hope.

Its not wrong to believe that we are here for a reason, beyond genetics.

You want to do good for goodness sake, Im all for that. Room enough in this world for everybody. Want to do good cus you think if you don't then you end up in HBOs OZ... ok. Same difference.

I choose to believe there is a purpose.

As someone put it.... (watch the damn vid, it can't hurt)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:20 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

It is find that you believe there is a purpose. An Atheist can live their live to have purpose.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:49 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
It's not the route I have taken, but I at least have the decency to acknowledge that I am believing one thing from a plethora of equally likely (or even unlikely) possibilities. There's no need to assign negative or hateful motives to someone who chooses another path.

And we appreciate it, Anthony. I thank you.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 11:02 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Nonsense-Niki,

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?

Your Buddhism is very Californicated.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

I bet you've never even considered applying that little tale to yourself, have ya?

Spoon!

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 11:05 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The saddest people I've ever met are atheists.

Not "sad" as in pathetic, selfish, spoiled, arrogant, holier-than-tho... (tho, most are)

But SAD, as in depressed... hopeless.

ETA: So, your father raises you from crapping yourself, and eating garbage, to be a young adult (evolution), then gives you a home for free, in a nice neighborhood (Earth)...

Your home has a burst pipe because of the cold (natural disaster)... and some of your neighbors decide to rob you and kill your family (crime, war and general humans choosing evil)...

Your father also gives you a library of books (Bible, Koran, etc) to teach you rules and how to live with each other, and build a better neighborhood...

Do you curse your father for having made you, deny his existence? Or be grateful for the chance at life, and building a better neighborhood for everyone?

Atheists don't surprise me. They are just sad.

I find this post sad, not in the least because of its archaic notions of the universe, but the whiny superiority for those who do not follow the same beliefs as you.

I see the universe as a place of absolute marvel and I am in awe of my abosulute insignificance in it, and yet I possess this consciousness that requires that I am at the centre of everything. I would say - there lies the spring of religion, the clash of this knowledge.

However, as a species with the capacity to both explore and test hyposthesis around creation, and acculate knowledge and wisdom, we are able to put aside childish notions such as the father/creator and who sits on a cloud and see and understand existence in a much more complex way...either through more complex spiritual thought that you have demonstrated or through scientific study.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 12:23 PM

Quote:
His ultimate punishment is sending people into a lake of fire for all eternity, at which there is not learning.

To be fair there's no hell in the old testament. What they had is Sheol, which is actually more like the Greek concept of Hades except with no Elysium Fields. Everyone goes there, yeah there's some punishments for the wicked, but everyone else is tossed in together no matter what they believe and there really aren't rewards for the righteous. It is true that the old testament god is pretty harsh though, like turning innocent people into salt, killing all the firstborn, or raining fire down on a couple of cities, though that was because many of them were rapists.

Hell is a New Testament invention, which derived from the concept of Gehenna, which was a landfill outside Jerusalem that was always on fire due to advanced organic decay. However, they may very well have considered the smell rather hellish by our standards.

Since then the concept of hell has undergone a lot of modifications, up to being sectioned off into 9 levels in Dante's Inferno, with the lowest level being in fact a lake of ICE, not fire. There is a lake of fire awaiting the completely unredeemable with the last judgement, but that's not the same as hell.

And accounts will vary about whether hell is also the same thing as purgatory (which implies being cleansed of sin through fire), and if people can go through purgatory and be redeemed. Generally the answer is yes.

The symbolism and more obscure aspects of the texts are interesting. I couldn't tell you any of the popular stories, parables, or allegories though.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:21 PM

America loves a winner!

Growing up Methodist, religion was never shoved down our throats. It was kinda sorta accepted, at face value, and aside from an occasional bible school or C & E appearances at the local church, not much else was made of it all.

I have to laugh at those who claim most atheists are either rebels, who had too MUCH religion drilled into their heads, or were basically heathens, not blessed in hearing " The Word " , or some such.

Please! Pick one! Too much god, not enough god... and here I am, with just ENOUGH, and I still don't buy into it.

Now, growing up, and being oh so impressionable, I had in mind the exact sort of person who was an 'atheist'. Rasputin comes to mind. Commie, obviously, evil, heartless...and one who was completely self centered, caring for only Earthly pleasures. If it felt good, do it! Those were the types of people who were atheists. Those who cared only for themselves.

Who'd ever want to be so lost and depraved as they were ?

Well, safe to say, my non - belief has nothing to do w/ who or what ever the hell Rasputin was pimpin'. In fact, I think it was that gross association with Rasputin and who he was, and what he represented, as I saw it, which kept me from fully coming to grips w/ my non belief for as long as I did. I didn't want others to view me as some sort of amoral monster, and still don't. But that point is curious, because I've had many Christians tell me, that if they found out there WAS no god, then they would feel nothing keeping them from raping, murdering, lying or cheating ...

Ironic, no ? These folks claim they NEED there to be a god, or else they'd revert to some sort of Reaver like morality, and here I am, seeing NO evidence in a supreme being, and somehow have managed to avoid doing any of the things they claim almost compelled to do, were it not for SkyGod™, looking over their shoulder.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 1:32 PM

OONJERAH

. . .Oonjerah on God, Religion, the Universe

Does God exist? I hope so. I want Him/Her/It to be. I want intent in my Universe.

Do I understand God? No way! I figure, by way of keeping it simple, my intelligence,
. . . . . . .awareness is less than 1% of God's. So give up tryin' to second guess Him.

Is religion about God? No, I think it's about controlling people.

Does God care about religion? I doubt it. See Question 2.

How did the Universe and We get here?
. . .I don't know. If God made All, when did God start? God always was. I can't comprehend that.
If not God, let's have a pure physics explanation of our existence. The Big Bang?
How did the void and stuff to go bang happen? I can't comprehend that.

The best notion I have of it is: Once there was nothing, not even void, and then
stuff happened. I can't comprehend it.

Most of us know we don't know, can't know. But some people are in touch with knowing.
I'm one who needs to get more comfortable with not knowing.

My alternative is: We don't exist. It's still all Void.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:16 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Something's always struck me as interesting.

It's the idea that Time may not have always existed. Physics or Religion, doesn't matter. At some point, the properties of the Universe came into being. Before that point, there may not have been any befores or afters.

Time may have come to be one day.

And until Time came to be, there was no separation of moments.

If something existed outside of Time, it would have no beginning and no end. It would just be. And maybe it could just see, too. Maybe it could perceive Everything. With no separation or division.

And if something existed outside Time and observed us, we also would have always existed. Even though we are stuck in Time, the Timeless observer would not be. We would just be there.

Always.

These are the things I think about, when I think about God.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 2:49 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?

Hello,

If I look under Irony in the Encyclopedia Universal, there will be a photograph of Wulf uttering this quote.

The the problem there ain't that his cup is full, it's what that cup is full OF...

While I have my own beliefs, which I rarely discuss, I've always toyed with the notion of people winding up in whatever afterlife best suits that regardless of what they believe - and man is that a fun thought, especially since I am pretty sure that'd mean imma get dragged off to Valhalla, and prolly get jack-slapped en route for trying to grope the Valkyrie...

Or maybe, reincarnated into an animal most closely matching their personality, I can see that being a fun mental exercise too...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:07 PM

OONJERAH

Quote Anthony: "It's the idea that Time may not have always existed. Physics or Religion, doesn't matter."

. . .Yes!! That's exactly it!
I never quite make that leap, 'cause I keep forgetting that Time is part of the creation.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Hmmm, your logic has flaws in it. There is NOTHING to support the existence of a god or a creator of the universe. People who believe in god, do not do so because of evidence but because of faith.

As someone who does not believe in a god/creator I don't feel either sad or unfulfilled. I have faced death of loved ones and much adversity in my life, and have managed to get through either without faith, but through possessing resilience and having support of loved ones.

The thought that when I die there is nothing does not worry me particularly, as when I don't exist I wont be able to worry about not existing. It does make me ponder my place in the universe and my reason for being, but I don't suppose I'll have any more answers than any other person, religious or otherwise.

I do dread the death of loved ones. But I see that as part of the human condition, which is sometimes unbearable in the face of terrible loss.

Hey Magonsdaughter,

Actually, I disagree. There are no flaws in my logic. I admit though in my post that I made the mistake of stating my case from too much of a slant.

You're right, there is NOTHING to support the existence of a creator of the universe other than a book and people who believe in it. I have no more reason to believe that Jesus even existed, let alone was the son of God.

As for the rest of what you said, I agree with all of it as well. But all of those things do kind of prove my other point that the believers tend to live a less trying life, and potentially more fulfilling life, even if they are completely wrong in the end.

My grandmother, who suffers health issues of her own, has lost two of her sons in the last 5 years. One from cancer and the other from a self inflicted gunshot. I don't know how else an 80 year old woman could cope with losing two of her sons who were nearly 30 years younger than her without her beliefs and the support of all of the people she regularly surrounds herself with at the church.

I'm probably only Agnostic today because I have plenty of other much more enjoyable social outlets for fun than going to church at my age. Let's see what happens when I'm 50-60 and everything is different, especially if I'm diabetic or have some other life-threatening illness at the time.

Until about 2 years ago, I used to play WAY too many video games for it to be health since I was a little kid. Something about turning 30 changed that though. I questioned what I was doing, and made some drastic changes in my life. Now, my life is much more fulfilling than it ever was before I turned 30.

I'm just saying that things change. Time changes people.

Given that, I completely accept Agnostisism, and even encourage it among youth. I just have no understanding of Athiesm, especially at a young age. Who the hell are any of we to say that there isn't a God, for one? Secondly, I see absolutely no benefits of drawing that line in the sand on any personal level.

Regards,
~6

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Religion: opiate of the masses.

Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?

Hmmm... no connection there!

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:07 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?

Hmmm... no connection there!

Pretty sure that's a load of bunk, actually.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rappy -prove it. Otherwise STFU.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:51 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rappy -prove it. Otherwise STFU.

I'm not the one who made the asinine, idiotic, and ridiculous claim that the US has one of the worst standards of living. That'd be YOU.

If there were a hell, I'd direct you to it, and strongly suggest you stay!

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 4:55 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Religion: opiate of the masses.

Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world, also has the highest crime rate and one of the worst standards of living (for a developed nation, that is)?

Hmmm... no connection there!

Actually, not that this is proving anything Signy, but being the Agnostic I am, one of the only stories of the bible that has ever spoken to me is Job.

My summation of Job.....

Give a man everything. Give a man unlimited credit. Give a man the freedom to live in a country where the government bends all the rules to make sure that his credit is extended and he can obtain everything with even a poor to moderate credit score (until times get rough).....

That man has no need for God.

Don't kid yourself Signy. Overall, the USA of the last 40 years has been one of the most Secular societies, aside from the Greeks before they fell (right around the time they were sodomizing each other over the puke tanks).

The only reason that some of us feel it's too religious, and some of us feel that there is no religion here is because we have the extremists on either side yelling 100 times as loud as anyone else.

The most religious people in the world today are the Middle Easterners with nothing to live for on this realm.

I'd personally love to see what you would do if you had to fight for food and the only belongings you could call your own were the grains of sand in your ass crack.

Hell.... I'd personally love to see what I would do in that situation.

Just be thankful you're here.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:08 PM

WISHIMAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Doing right, is good for its own reasons. But knowing that there is someone looking out... hell that gives a person hope.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

Hope is just a figment of your imagination mixed with unrealistic emotional expectations. It's not a real thing, and it is just a distraction so that you won't have to deal with what IS.

Wishing and hoping that aliens would abduct me and fix my DNA, or that I could see a little of what goes on in the universe- doesn't mean it's gonna happen...I'M NEVER GOING TO GET MY WISH. Wishing and hoping doesn't actually make anything better, it just makes it worse......Gawd, have I learned THAT lesson...

What exactly ARE you hoping for anyway?? That your life will suddenly make sense at the moment of your death or that you will find the perfect euphoria you lack in life?? I think it's gonna suck more for you if it's not what you think or if there IS nothing, than it is for me as I have no expectations....just pure unadulterated reality.

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Tuesday, March 27, 2012 5:29 PM