Godless and proud: Atheists rally in D.C. by Geezer

Quote:
There are plenty of people who make the mistake of treating Buddhism like a religion with gods and goddesses and worship of a person, but... that's not really what it's meant to be about.

Depends on the school. Chinese buddhism sees different manifestations of Buddha as actual separate entities or manifestations of an abstract concept that can be prayed to to influence some outcome or another.

And really, anywhere locals think someone might have attained enlightenment, they might build a shrine to that person. It might be due to older concepts pre-dating Buddhism influencing the practice, or simple lack of understanding relative to the monks, but it does happen.

Generally though, my understanding is that emanations are supposed to just be coming from a shared consciousness, and everyone has access to that same aspect of the shared consciousness and can obtain similar abilities and results.

It's actually somewhat similar to some deist, gnostic, and even christian ideas about apotheosis.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:24 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
What you find annoying is that they do know stuff, and you don't.

Pretty sure no one knows anything. I don't see why I should indulge some intellectual jerk putting on airs like they have all the answers, or give their written brain hairballs any particular consideration over puzzling out my own mind.

I'm also not sure how I would be aware enough to know whether or not they know anything, since I don't really give a damn what any of them have to say, let alone know what they have said.

Wow. Luddites look @ you and just shake their heads in disbelief.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:43 AM

I am not a unique article.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 5:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
But I actually DID create a hypothesis, I even labeled it as such, and it was...
Quote:
So, how's this for a hypothesis: If we didn't have such a stunted society, maybe we wouldn't have such emotionally destitute people who need an invisible friend? If we didn't have such a CHEAP source of comfort for the masses, maybe TBTB would need to expend a little more $$$ on the rest of society? Just a thought.

I can provide a hypothesis that dogs cause car-buying due to folks liking to see smiling, flappy-eared dogs with their heads out moving car windows in the breeze.

Quote:
You also said
Quote:
You made the proposition. It's up to you to prove it.
Actually, Geezer, it's not up to me to prove my hypothesis. That's not how science works. It is a well-known logical problem that a hypothesis can never been proven, it can only be DISproven. So, there you go. Ball's in your court.

I disagree with your take on this, since you're supposed to provide some basis for your hypothesis besides "maybe".

However...

Okay. Defend your hypothesis.

Define a "Stunted Society', and provide support for your assertion that the U.S. is one.

Define "emotionally destitute people" and provide support for your assertion that a significant number of people in the U.S. meet that definition.

Provide evidence for your assertion that a significant number of such "emotionally destitute people" seek an "invisible friend".

Provide data that show that religion is (a)an inexpensive form of comfort, and (b) provides that comfort for the masses.

Show how less spending on religion, which is usually privately funded, would cause TPTB (might want to identify "TPTB" as well) to expend more public money.

Take your time.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:04 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

These are the things I think about, when I think about God.

I just started thinking that proving the existence of God wasn't the big question, it's not whether you can put your hands on a God Being or prove their existence with tangible things (design), it's just the believing itself. If you believe in a God, then God exists for you, simple. God exists because in your mind you have accepted the concept (whether like Anthony's or whatever your own personal vision of God is) and you have made a place for your idea of God there. This will sound trite but it's like you have created a room in your mind and into it you start putting all the things you associate with the God you believe in: peace, hope, fairness, absolute love, forgiveness... all these things make you feel strongly, emotionally toward the concept you have been building about God to the point where it can physically alter your behavior. Sometimes in ways that may not be real positive (blind obedience), sometimes it's pretty cool (charity, forgiveness), depends on your God.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

It is a fact that changing the way you think can have physical effects on your body and brain, so that's not an unreasonable hypothesis.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:50 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

It is a fact that changing the way you think can have physical effects on your body and brain, so that's not an unreasonable hypothesis.

Stretching it even further...related to that is the "power" of prayer. It seems to me to be in the same family as meditation and self-hynosis - ways of reaching a mental state through repetition of thoughts, exercises to achieve some kind of better mental health and well being.

http://www.project-meditation.org/a_wim1/effects_of_meditation.html

"Researchers from the University of Wisconsin have been working in conjunction with Tibetan monks to show that these transcendent experiences, caused by reflection and rumination, cause intense activity in the prefrontal cortex of the brain.

This means that longtime practitioners of meditation show increased energy in that area, which is not present in beginners. This means that it is possible to train the brain through routine practice of meditation, to truly reach different emotional and mental states. Scientists used to believe that the brain did not change in structure at all after birth, but these studies show that this is not the case.
The area of the brain that feels the greatest effects of meditation is one that's associated with happiness and positive feelings. This ties in well with other research and centuries of anecdotal evidence that say meditation helps relax us, release pent up stress, and makes us feel more at peace. "

It's not so much that "my prayers were answered," (especially goofy when people on opposing sides pray for victory) but that the act of praying can have a positive physical effect on one's mental outlook.

So in a way, believing in God and praying is like an opiate, just not in the way Marx meant it.

Can someone be addicted to Religion?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:11 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
There are plenty of people who make the mistake of treating Buddhism like a religion with gods and goddesses and worship of a person, but... that's not really what it's meant to be about.

Depends on the school. Chinese buddhism sees different manifestations of Buddha as actual separate entities or manifestations of an abstract concept that can be prayed to to influence some outcome or another.

The Chinese government controls religion as much as possible, there, so their "school" directs people away from contemplation and towards putting their personal power in the hands of someone else. This isn't really reflective of Buddhist practice as it was actually laid down by Siddhartha the Awakened One or any of the teachers who followed him to enlightenment and taught others to find the enlightenment in themselves. Contemplative practice does not put the power in the hands of a deity, it gives individuals the power to touch (for lack of a better term) the Divine.
Different manifestations of Buddha are seen as separate entities or manifestations of an abstract concept, but they are not meant to be prayed to, they are meant to be embodied. Praying to Kwan Yin will not grant you compassion from others or from the world. Contemplation and embodiment of what Kwan Yin represents will bring forth your own compassion. Also, the symbol is a useful tool of focus, but is not necessary; contemplation on a rock or a tree or the movement of your own body is also done. (Tibetan Buddhism does love its symbology, though.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:20 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Want to believe that we all are just evolved apes, condemned to fight and claw our way around, till we breed and die?

Ok.

Want to believe that there is a purpose? That when you finally die (something we all do) there are fields of gold to run in, and you meet all the friends, family that you lost?

Ok.

Go ahead. Either way, I've got no problem what you believe. Just don't FORCE your shit on me, one way or the other.

Jeebus Crisco, most of the world problems would be solved if people stopped trying to force their beliefs on others.

Name one social ill, one national ill, that couldn't be solved if people stopped trying to force people to THEIR (almighty) way of thinking.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:27 AM

Quote:
Different manifestations of Buddha are seen as separate entities or manifestations of an abstract concept, but they are not meant to be prayed to, they are meant to be embodied.

Right, normally. I'm just pointing out that some people don't see it that way.

Sometimes Guanyin IS seen as a goddess of mercy, helping the less fortunate and answering prayers. And I'm not one hundred percent certain that only started with the Maoist government.

But, I'm recalling that in the past this wasn't a very fun argument for either of us. So I'll leave you alone.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 7:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rose, as usual, nailed it. "Everything she said", in essence. Byte's right, to a degree, as far as I know. In some places in Asia, I think buddha is perceived as some kind of deity (tho' that is precisely AGAINST his teachings). But even tho' some pray to Guanyin, it should be a meditative "prayer". People of all faiths misunderstand the teachings of that faith, and I'm sure in the past and in some places they pray.

But the purpose of Buddhist prayer is to awaken our inherent inner capacities of strength, compassion and wisdom rather than to petition external forces based on fear, idolizing, and worldly and/or heavenly gain. Buddhist prayer is a form of meditation; it is a practice of inner reconditioning. Buddhist prayer replaces the negative with the virtuous and points us to the blessings of Life.

What's more, it can a function as a form of self-talking or self-therapy in which one mentally talks through a problem, or talks through it aloud, in the hope that some new insight will come or a better decision can be made. Prayer therefore frequently has the function of being part of a decision-making process.

Quote:
some mistakenly believe that the Absolute is separate and/or different from us. Believing this, their prayers ask for favors, such as health, salvation, fame, victory or the winning lottery numbers. They use prayer in order to manipulate their God to work for their benefit. Wanting Him to play favorites, they beg to be blessed by Him at the expense of others. However, this attitude defeats the power of prayer. We believe that in order for prayer to be effective it must be devoid of any self-centeredness and calculation, relying strictly on great compassion. It should be done to strengthen and open our hearts, and to benefit all beings. Buddhist prayer has nothing to do with begging for personal worldly or heavenly gains.

There is chanting and meditation, but to look to buddha as someone/something which can AFFECT anything or pray to him for personal help is very much against most buddhist teachings.

Quote:
Either way, I've got no problem what you believe. Just don't FORCE your shit on me, one way or the other.

Jeebus Crisco, most of the world problems would be solved if people stopped trying to force their beliefs on others.

Name one social ill, one national ill, that couldn't be solved if people stopped trying to force people to THEIR (almighty) way of thinking.

By gawd, Wulf, you got it! It's the proselytizing and forcing of religion that is the very worst of organized religion. One reason the form of buddhism I practice teaches that we're not supposed to go into detail about our faith until someone asks three times. That indicates as serious interest, rather than passing curiosity. It's kind of the opposite of proselytizing.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just shared their particular faith with each other, instead of knocking on doors and writing laws to force others to abide by THEIR beliefs?

Byte, one can debate without arguing. To me, your last statement comes across as a slightly passive-aggressive judgment, that's just how it reads to ME, in other words, just my opinion.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:05 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Name one social ill, one national ill, that couldn't be solved if people stopped trying to force people to THEIR (almighty) way of thinking."

Ok. Since noone wants to do it.

Drugs,
Poverty,
Racism,
Abortion,
Gun-control,
Hunger,
Crime,
War,
Politics...

The way things are, is not working. Haven't worked. CAN'T work.

Might be time for a new way of thinking.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 8:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Feh, I'll just post it.
YOU figure out why.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 9:12 AM

Quote:
Byte, one can debate without arguing. To me, your last statement comes across as a slightly passive-aggressive judgment, that's just how it reads to ME, in other words, just my opinion.

Actually that prior argument hurt both me and Rose, and if I'd have been thinking before I posted, which is somewhat rare of late, I probably wouldn't have brought it up.

Anyway, I never said I wasn't passive aggressive. I'm pretty much that or outright aggressive.

Quote:
Either way, I've got no problem what you believe. Just don't FORCE your shit on me, one way or the other.

Jeebus Crisco, most of the world problems would be solved if people stopped trying to force their beliefs on others.

Name one social ill, one national ill, that couldn't be solved if people stopped trying to force people to THEIR (almighty) way of thinking.

By gawd, Wulf, you got it! It's the proselytizing and forcing of religion that is the very worst of organized religion. One reason the form of buddhism I practice teaches that we're not supposed to go into detail about our faith until someone asks three times. That indicates as serious interest, rather than passing curiosity. It's kind of the opposite of proselytizing.

I agree with all this for obvious reasons.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:13 PM

OONJERAH

Quote Signym: "Another way to look at the question is not whether
'god' exists or not, but the role of RELIGION in society."

I hear you saying that Religion creates our concepts of God.
Am I hearing right?

If so, then without any religions, Man would never have thought of God.
I disagree.

I believe that God's existence has nothing to do with what Man thinks.
God is unknowable. Absence of God is unknowable.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:29 PM

Quote:
If so, then without any religions, Man would never have thought of God.

Sure they could have. All things start somewhere. Whether it's by an actual existence of a god appearing before some cave people and yelling "HEY! WHERE'S THE PARTY AT!" or whether some guy realized that he could get people to pay him a tribute if he could convince them he had mystical abilities or knowledge, or whether there's a part of our brain that under certain circumstances can be stimulated to think that there's a positive presence with us (and stimulated another way to think a dangerous presence is near us), there is one thing we can say for certain. Ideas don't spring from nowhere.

Aside from that, I'm not sure this addresses what Sig's point.

Obviously the different religions have not together all come up with the same idea of a God, which is what Sig is saying. The society influences what kind of god, goddess, or multiple gods they might believe in. Religions also evolve over time: modern christianity is not the same as early christianity, and definitely not the same as its judaic predecessor.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 1:31 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Religious people bother me.

If I do X, Im guaranteed heaven.

Fuck. That. Shit.

Live right, do good, serve the light, (as you see it.)

Then maybe, just maybe, you get to walk the fields.

Serve the light, do whats right, carry your burden with no complaint, help others as you can, make no war unless its put to you, protect women and children, don't cheat... yeah. You've got a shot.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:13 PM

OONJERAH

This discussion is about religion.
Whenever y'all say god, you mean one of the many religious concepts of god.
No one wants to talk about the God, if real, that existed before man & religion.

Got it!

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 2:18 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world

Hello,

I still find no validity to this.

Only 6% of Italians said they did not believe there was some kind of spirit, God, or life force.

I have no idea what the numbers for the Vatican are, but probably not in your favor.

The number was 4% in the Republic of Ireland.

Perhaps you are defining 'religious' by some custom measure that allows you to be correct.

--Anthony

I agree with Anthony, the US is not the most religious by a long shot. Sure a lot of people say they believe in God and are part of a religion, yet how many of those people attend church or even follow the tenants of such religion? Not as many. There is still a certain stigma in the US about saying you don't believe, or even questioning so many people are just going to say they believe when they really don't give it much thought.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 3:24 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

JREF at the Reason Rally

Written by Brian Thompson
Thursday, 29 March 2012 18:12

Last Saturday an estimated 20,000 people packed into Washington, D.C.'s National Mall for the Reason Rally, and we're proud to say the JREF was there in full force. JREF founder, James Randi himself, was one of the event's keynote speakers, sharing the stage with other well-known academics, activists, and entertainers who worked to spotlight the growing secularist movement devoted to fostering a more reasonable world. Many of our Amazing Meeting regulars were on the bill, including Richard Dawkins, Adam Savage, R. Elisabeth Cornwell, Michael Shermer, Paul Provenza, and Sean Faircloth, and other friends of the JREF also appeared, including the the inimitable comedian Tim Minchin.

Close friend of Randi's, Penn Jillette, appeared via video, as did comedian Bill Maher.

Penn Jillette, one of my favs. Bill Maher, not so much.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony, of the developed nations, we have THE highest percent who believe in some sort of god, who think the earth was created recently, who go to church, who think guardian angels watch their every step. Higher even than Ireland! I'll see if I can find those stats for you!

We also have a very high percent of peeps who think aliens have abducted humans, the highest percent with "brand loyalty" (people who "buy" advertising), and the highest percent who feel that corporations are their friends. People walking around confused in so many fundamental ways it's a wonder they manage to survive.

Where do you get these FACTS from Signy? Gallop polls?

Let me ask you? Do you think that there is a census taken in any middle eastern country that is as invasive as our own is every ten years? Is every person in every foreign land put on a petri dish as us Americans willingly splay ourselves up because we can't be bothered with fighting against the humiliation of it all because we're so busy watching our AWESOME TV shows?

Come now Signy....

You're a Science Person....

I expect more from you....

To truly believe the results from tests that have been done, and to "preach" the results of said tests.... being of a scientific mind as you are.... you couldn't in good conscience quote polls that were derived with 30 different constants.

Tomato.... Tomato......

For every study you find that says it's pronounced (te-met-to, te-met-ä)

Half of these people live in caves with nothing to call their own but the sand that owns their asses. Of course they believe in their own god more than we do in America where every sin is available to anyone of any race, culture, social status or age.

You seem to hate America Signy, so you should be on board with this fact. In 2012, the USA is basically nothing more than textbook Sodom and Gomorrah.

Forgive me for laughing, but I think it's quite comical that you think that the impotent whinings of rich old white men like Rush or Glen Beck are so potent that you live in a world that is so Ripe with crazy Christian zealots that they'll castrate your son for being gay.

Forget the polls you read Signy.....

If you knew anyone who was gay in any Mid-East culture, chances are they'd know it too.....

And you and your family would likely be eating pigs that went to the slaughter several months later that ate your gay acquaintance or loved one.

Seriously Signy..... Life here, right now, so totally sucks since the 1980s, but it's so much better than anywhere else. If it wasn't, why are you still here? Why am I still here?

As a second part to that question, why do things seem to be much worse in 2012 than they were in 2008? I've been here since almost the beginning of the Bush Jr. realm, knocking him all the time, but things were supposed to be different in 2008....

They're different for sure..... All of Bush's ill-gotten powers are at OBama's disposal, and he's more than tripled the national deficit, which, behind global imperalism is the NUMBER ONE gripe I had with Bush... his insane spending.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

And where do you get YOUR "facts", Jack? I'm pretty sure I can guess, but you'd have to pull your head out of there first...

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Wow, that is a bit limiting. I think the best philosophers and sciencists create more questions than they do answers, they encourage debate, form hypotheses, develop dangerous ideas. They help us create space in our heads for awe and uncertainty - to my mind the polar opposite of religion.

If we do not listen (not necessariy agree) with the intellectual input of philosophers and scientists, then who do we listen to. Mainstream media commentators?

First, you misunderstood. I said philosophers, and scientist philosophers. Personally I think scientists should stick to SCIENCE, not philosophy, and I have very little care for anyone who styles themselves a philosopher in general.

For your second question about philosophers versus mainstream commentators: we should listen to neither.

I listen to myself and sometimes my friends. I do not lend much credibility to ideas from anyone who I have not personally communicated with. It seems rather pointless; they ultimately have no impact on my life.

Also, without personally communicating with them, I can't be entirely sure what their agenda is. Everyone has an agenda, some I can get behind and some that I can't. There's very good reason for me to not care what they have to say until I vet it.

I still think that is a very limited way to live your life, and incredibly suspicious as well.

"Listen" does not equate to "believe". You may, and preferably should, be exposed to a whole range of ideas from many sources, including scientists, philosophers, and mainstream media commentators. You may hear or read things that enrage you, or disgust you, or give you pause for thought, or resonate thoroughly. You may be exposed to ideas that are wholly contrary to what you have ever thought or heard or understood before. And I say that is the best way to be. To only listen to people you know, or worse, be stuck in your own head ALWAYS just seems so....so pointless, when there is some a vast body of ideas, opinions, facts, fictions, and fabrications out there. I see that as adding richness to my existence.

none of us is an island. Our ideas and beliefs didn't just pop into our heads, they have been seeded and shaped by countless others, many of whom are long dead and I suppose we add our uniqueness to them. In an ideal world, we should all have two things (apart from all the necessities) unlimited expose to the ideas of others, and a bit of reflection time to process it all.

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Thursday, March 29, 2012 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Did you ever wonder why the USA, which is the most religious developed nation in the world

Hello,

I still find no validity to this.

Only 6% of Italians said they did not believe there was some kind of spirit, God, or life force.

I have no idea what the numbers for the Vatican are, but probably not in your favor.

The number was 4% in the Republic of Ireland.

Perhaps you are defining 'religious' by some custom measure that allows you to be correct.

--Anthony

I'd probably say that the US was the most religious 'secular' nation in the Western world.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 3:11 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

@everyone: to what do we attribute this rise in Atheism? Surely there are just as many fears, or other motivations for religon now as at any other time?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Friday, March 30, 2012 3:19 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
@everyone: to what do we attribute this rise in Atheism? Surely there are just as many fears, or other motivations for religon now as at any other time?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

The violence seen in some religions, as well as the predatory nature of other religions, towards the young and the elderly... those would be two clear candidates , imo.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:01 AM

Quote:
"Listen" does not equate to "believe".

No, but it does equate to thoughts being influenced. I can't have any of that. My thoughts have to be mine. My choices have to be my own.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:12 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
"Listen" does not equate to "believe".

No, but it does equate to thoughts being influenced. I can't have any of that. My thoughts have to be mine.

Only if you let them be influenced. Of course that might also just be you changing how you think about something, which is often a good thing.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:14 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The violence seen in some religions, as well as the predatory nature of other religions, towards the young and the elderly... those would be two clear candidates , imo.

This, plus the rise in scientific knowledge.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:51 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Religion" has become a business, maybe it always has been.

Ever been to a mega-church?

Best church I ever went to was this "Friends" church (i.e. Quakers).

No money was asked for, no ministry given. Folks just sat in this cathedral-type area, around a hole in the ceiling that let a stream of light in.

You sat there, and if you felt the need to speak on what you thought of God, you stood up and did so.

It was a lot different than other churches I had been to. Lot different from other religions I've seen as well.

I mean, Ive prayed (and been blessed by) Buddhist monks, Catholic priests, Mormons, Jews, seen the dancers at a black church fall-out, pretty much every faith..

but that time I went to the Quakers, I'll never forget.

If I recall, I ended up just giving all the money I had in my wallet to them. Not much, I was only 16. They didn't ask, but I wanted to.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:59 AM

Quote:

Only if you let them be influenced. Of course that might also just be you changing how you think about something, which is often a good thing.

It's my life. Philosophers tell people how to live their life.

You're conflating my dislike of philosophers with a dislike of LOGIC. If I change my mind about something it is because of LOGIC, not because my life is unacceptable and someone knows how to live it better than I do.

I object to the arrogance of philosophers, as well as the arrogance and agenda of the mainstream mouthpieces.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 6:07 AM

Quakers are awesome. I have a lot of respect for them, and Sikhs, and even if I don't express it much, Buddhists.

They have these ideas about helping people if they show up needing help, no matter who they are or what their religion is.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 9:08 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I have a friend, he and his wife are Quakers. They are among the least judgmental people I have ever known. They've been on my mental-health website for over a decade, both have serious physical problems as well as some (well controlled) mental ones, yet their attitude is something all my buddhist teachings can't come close to, try tho' I might. I admire them highly.

Quote:
Philosophers tell people how to live their life.

They DO?! My gawd, that's a shock to ME...I thought philosophers questioned everything and discussed theories endlessly. Huh.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 9:24 AM

Thoreau - drop everything and live in the woods, society is corruption.

Kant - This version of morality is correct.

Nietzche - No such thing as good or evil. Everything is pointless anyway so BE HAPPY.

Plato - You guys suck, make me the philosopher king and everything will be better.

PhilosophY as a whole is an endless debate between different schools of thought. PhilosophERS, on the other hand... They have very clear cut ideas on reality that they assert endlessly.

They're like scientists who have stopped being skeptics.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 12:51 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The violence seen in some religions, as well as the predatory nature of other religions, towards the young and the elderly... those would be two clear candidates , imo.

This, plus the rise in scientific knowledge.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Well, science certainly had its part to play in MY non belief, but the question you asked, as to the rise of Atheism TODAY... it's those 2 things I listed, as well as a bunch of other stuff. Tsunamis, quakes, unbelievable suffering, and for what ? And let's not forget the failed dooms day prophecies, which seem to come every 5-10 years. ( And I'm not even talking about Glenn Beck! )

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, March 30, 2012 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
"Listen" does not equate to "believe".

No, but it does equate to thoughts being influenced. I can't have any of that. My thoughts have to be mine. My choices have to be my own.

Sorry Byte, but you are being very naive if you think your thoughts have not been influenced by others. That simply is not possible.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 2:32 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
"Listen" does not equate to "believe".

No, but it does equate to thoughts being influenced. I can't have any of that. My thoughts have to be mine. My choices have to be my own.

Sorry Byte, but you are being very naive if you think your thoughts have not been influenced by others. That simply is not possible.

" If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice! " - RUSH - Freewill.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, March 30, 2012 3:39 PM

Quote:
you are being very naive if you think your thoughts have not been influenced by others. That simply is not possible.

I try to limit the influence others have on my thoughts as much as possible if I can't communicate directly with them.

You are still misunderstanding my meaning. And I'm frustrated now, so I'm going to give up on this thread.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 3:49 PM

I feel like I am pretty clear on your meaning. I just don't agree!!

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Friday, March 30, 2012 3:52 PM

OONJERAH

I am old and set in my ways. I have decided that I already
know everything, so there is no need to learn anymore.
*closing my mind like a steel trap*

No curiosity. No thrill of discovery. No recognition
of those who've mastered the art of living well.
.
.
.
Turtle makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.

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Friday, March 30, 2012 5:01 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Forget the polls you read Signy.....

If you knew anyone who was gay in any Mid-East culture, chances are they'd know it too.....

And you and your family would likely be eating pigs that went to the slaughter several months later that ate your gay acquaintance or loved one.

Wow, 6ix, you're so seriously confused I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, if you re-read what I wrote, you should notice that I was writing about the DEVELOPED world. So, that kinda excludes the ME right there.

Second, they don't eat pigs in the Muslim world.

Quote:
Seriously Signy..... Life here, right now, so totally sucks since the 1980s, but it's so much better than anywhere else. If it wasn't, why are you still here? Why am I still here?

I don't know why YOU'RE still here, but I know why I'M still here.... the nations I'd like to immigrate to are pretty choosy about who they let in. If I had a prayer about emigrating to Germany, France, NZ, or even Iceland, I would.

Quote:
As a second part to that question, why do things seem to be much worse in 2012 than they were in 2008? I've been here since almost the beginning of the Bush Jr. realm, knocking him all the time, but things were supposed to be different in 2008....

Excuse me, but you must have me confused with an Obama supporter. He talked a good game, but sold out the minute he got into office.

You struck out pretty thoroughly there, Jack. Your post seemed pretty pointless.

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 3:27 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I don't know why YOU'RE still here, but I know why I'M still here.... the nations I'd like to immigrate to are pretty choosy about who they let in. If I had a prayer about emigrating to Germany, France, NZ, or even Iceland, I would.

Per Nationmaster, there are 10 million immigrants in Germany (12.31% of total population), 6.4 million in France (10.18%), 642,000 in New Zealand(15.4%), and 23,000 in Iceland(7.667%).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_imm_pop_num_of_imm-immigration-i
mmigrant-population-number-immigrants

As I recall, you've hinted that you have a pretty technically skilled job that saves lives. Seems like if all these millions could immigrate to the places you want to go, you should be able to do so with a reasonable amount of effort.

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 4:39 AM

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The violence seen in some religions, as well as the predatory nature of other religions, towards the young and the elderly... those would be two clear candidates , imo.

This, plus the rise in scientific knowledge.

I agree with both of you, and add "the rise in Knowledge about Religious behavior and practices in general."

All Religions seem to set themselves up as The Answer, The Way. Their foundations start with a kind perfection for how we should live. So when it behaves badly - and we see it all now - it's seems more hypocritical, we see through that conceit. When that illusion goes it undermines the whole premise.

I used to think Bible stories of how X came into being, (pick your own religious tale), or other mystical types of "creation stories" were interesting, and fun, but now they just seem a bit sad, only good as models for other kinds of fiction.
Moses parting the Red Sea... was that suppose to be just a parable, or are we to really believe that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Red_Sea

"Yahweh chooses Moses to lead the children of Israel out of slavery in Egypt and into the land of Canaan, which God has promised to them. The Egyptian pharaoh agrees to their departure, and they travel from Ramesses to Succoth and then to Etham on the edge of the desert, led by a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. There God tells Moses to turn back and camp by the sea at Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, directly opposite Baal-zephon.

But Yahweh causes the pharaoh to pursue the Israelites with chariots, and he overtakes them at Pi-hahiroth. When the Israelites see the Egyptian army they are afraid, but the pillar of fire and the cloud separates the Israelites and the Egyptians. At Yahweh's command Moses holds his staff out over the water, and throughout the night a strong east wind divides the sea, and the Israelites pass through with a wall of water on either side. The Egyptians pursue, but at daybreak Yahweh clogs their chariot-wheels and throws them into a panic, and with the return of the water the pharaoh and his entire army are destroyed (see Psalm 136:15). When the Israelites see the power of Yahweh they put their faith in Yahweh and in Moses, and sing a song of praise to the Lord for the crossing of the sea and the destruction of their enemies."

How can I believe in the teachings of any faith that wants me to believe this story?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 6:10 AM

All right, I'm tired of being nice, and I'm calling this out. There are several of you who for weeks now have been attacking me for everything and seeming to deliberately pick fights with me or side against me in arguments, and when you're all around, it's a tagteam thing.

Do you all want me gone? Is it in my head? Am I the new board scapegoat? What is going on here?

If you want me gone, I can be out of here, because I don't really have any interest in sticking around somewhere where I'm not wanted.

I just need you all to come out and say the word if that's the case. Be blunt, be direct, and I'll solve a problem that's happening for both of us.

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 6:32 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
All right, I'm tired of being nice, and I'm calling this out. There are several of you who for weeks now have been attacking me for everything and seeming to deliberately pick fights with me or side against me in arguments, and when you're all around, it's a tagteam thing.

Welcome to my world.

" Somebody tries to kill you, you kill them right back. " - Mal

If ya want. Or not.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
As I recall, you've hinted that you have a pretty technically skilled job that saves lives. Seems like if all these millions could immigrate to the places you want to go, you should be able to do so with a reasonable amount of effort.

GEEZER, hubby and I have looked into immigration policies specifically. But we are both too close to retirement, and with our disabled daughter, we would collectively be a burden on their healthcare system. We would be screened out.

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I just need you all to come out and say the word if that's the case. Be blunt, be direct, and I'll solve a problem that's happening for both of us.

Byte, people here don't want you gone, they disagree with you is all and they are trying to influence your thinking. I agree with them... I think there is a logical flaw in your thinking which prevents your position from being meaningful... but that's another story.

You OTOH have said more than once you don't want your thinking to be influenced, that you want your thoughts to be yours and that you feel you can only do that in isolation. So if this board and its influence is too much to bear for the moment, feel free to leave in peace, and come back in welcome.

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Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:39 AM