REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

San Onofre nuclear plant shut down

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, April 9, 2012 13:39
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Saturday, April 7, 2012 3:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

A large Southern California nuclear plant is out of commission indefinitely, and will remain so until there is an understanding of what caused problems at two of its generators and an effective plan to address the issues, the nation's top nuclear regulator said Friday.

Gregory Jaczko, chairman of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, refused to give a timetable as to when the San Onofre nuclear plant could resume operation. He said only that his agency had "set some firm conditions" as to when that could happen.

"We won't make a decision (to approve the facility's restart) unless we're satisfied that public health and safety will be protected," Jaczko told reporters. "They have to demonstrate to us that they understand the causes, and ... that they have a plan to address them."

The power plant has been shut down since this winter, when a small amount of radioactive gas escaped from a steam generator during a water leak. At the time, federal regulators said there was no threat to public health, though they could not identify how much gas leaked or exactly why it had happened.

The water leak occurred in thousands of tubes that carry heated water from the reactor core through the plant's steam generators.

Leaks occur periodically in older units, but plant owner Southern California Edison replaced the four steam generators at San Onofre in 2010 and 2011 as part of a $680 million project. They are in units 2 and 3 of the nuclear facility; unit 1 went out of service in 1992.

Each of the 65-foot-tall, 640-ton generators -- built by Japan's Mitsubishi Heavy Industries -- are packed with thousands of narrow tubes that carry hot, pressurized water from the reactors. The heat produces steam in a separate loop that drives the plant's turbines and generators. More at

Our day is coming, I can't help but thinking, given how old many of our plants are; I'm glad they found this one in time.

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 5:11 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I'm glad they shut this down until it could be properly maintained or refurbished. Nuclear plants should always be kept at the highest standards of repair. To do otherwise would be foolish.

--Anthony




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Saturday, April 7, 2012 8:30 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Our day is coming...



And it'll be expensive.

Here's an article about how Japan may make up for the closing of their Nuclear plants. They're looking at massive increases in pollution in the short term as they go back to coal and LNG for generation.

Converting to renewables will take large amounts of land out of agriculture, and may cost more than the current national budget to accomplish, depending on the methods and mixes used.

Quote:

Phasing out Japan's nuclear fleet would increase carbon emissions by at least 414 million tons, a 10% increase over current carbon emissions, as the country shifts electricity generation to more carbon-intensive LNG and coal-fired power plants. Replacing projected nuclear power generation in 2030 with power from coal or LNG would add at least 25% and as much as 37% of current emissions to the country's future carbon output.

...

Replacing the generation lost from a complete phase-out of nuclear power entirely with solar energy would require a more than a hundred-fold increase in solar's contribution to the national energy system, from the country's 2009 electricity generation of 2.1 billion kWh (0.2% of total electricity) to 267.8 billion kWh (27% of total electricity).

Furthermore, the 203 gigawatts (GW) of installed solar capacity required to replace Japan's current nuclear fleet would cover roughly 1.3 million acres, according to a land area calculator created by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) in the United States.

Using an estimate of $5 per watt of installed solar PV capacity, installing this 203 GW of solar capacity would cost the country at least $1.01 trillion dollars.

Alternatively, replacing the generation lost from a complete phase-out of nuclear power entirely with wind energy would require wind generation to increase from its current levels, 3.257 billion kWh (0.3% of total electricity), to 267 billion kWh (27% of total electricity).

This would require 152 GW of installed wind capacity, at a total installation cost of $375 billion (using an estimate of $2,466/KWe). According to NREL's wind farm area calculator, the installation of these wind turbines would require 38,000 acres taken out of production on a wind farm, and a total of 1.3 million acres for the entire wind farm.

Finally, replacing current nuclear generation with geothermal energy would require a nearly hundred-fold increase in geothermal's contribution to the country's energy supply, from the 2.75 billion kWh it currently generates, to 259.5 billion kWh annually.

Using an estimate of $4,100 kWh for construction costs of geothermal plants, this translates into about $175.5 billion dollars to construct the 42,804 MW of installed capacity necessary to generate the electricity lost from a complete nuclear phase-out.




http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2011/04/replacing_japans_nuclear_power
.shtml

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 9:14 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I miss Rickover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_G._Rickover
He was an asshole, but thanks in large part TO him being such a prick, the Navy has never had a serious reactor incident - I wish we could clone him and appoint him to the DOE in a supervisory role over our nuke plants, cause I'd feel a hell of a lot more confident in them if we did.

-F

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Saturday, April 7, 2012 9:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Converting to renewables will take large amounts of land out of agriculture
Please explain. Our wind farms aren't on any arable land, nor are solar plants...?

Other places seem to have no trouble with it:
Quote:

A new energy policy, which Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan began to outline this week, would emphasize solar and wind power.
Quote:

The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to over 20 percent in the first half of 2011. According to official figures, some 370,000 people in Germany were employed in the renewable energy sector in 2010, especially in small and medium sized companies. This is an increase of around 8 percent compared to 2009 (around 339,500 jobs), and well over twice the number of jobs in 2004 (160,500).
Quote:

•Wind output increases by over half compared to 2010
•Contribution driven by bigger capacity and higher wind speeds
•Wind powers equivalent of nearly a fifth of the UK homes per year.

RenewableUK, the trade association for the wind, wave and tidal industry, has hailed the publication of new Government figures as a clear demonstration of the significant role wind power now plays in Britain's energy mix.

Wind power capacity increased by over a gigawatt in 2011, and output increased by over 5.3 terawatt-hours to 15.5TWh – equivalent to the annual demand of 4.7 million homes.

The UK is having a lot of luck with wave and tidal renewable energy, too.
Quote:

Italy is the world’s sixth largest producer of wind power, with an installed nameplate capacity of 5814 MW in 2010.[1][2]:39

The energy from the 487 active plants accounts for the 19% of the renewable energy produced in Italy in 2010.[2]:38 The total energy produced in 2010 was 8,787 GWh, with an increase of 29% from the previous year.

Quote:

In China there now are six factories producing at least 2 MW/year each of monocrystalline, poly-crystalline and non-crystalline Photovoltaic cells. China has become a world leader in the manufacture of solar photovoltaic technology, with its six biggest solar companies having a combined value of over $ 15 billion. Around 820 megawatts of solar PV were produced in China in 2007, second only to Japan.[9].Suntech Power Holdings Co based in Jiangsu, is the world's third- biggest supplier of solar cells.
Quote:

Renewable energy in Spain represented 12.5% of total energy generation in 2009. Spain has set the target of generating 20% of its energy needs from renewable energy sources.


Quote:

A new energy policy, which Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan began to outline this week, would emphasize solar and wind power. n a speech this week, Kan mentioned several precise targets. By 2020, he said, solar power should cost one-third of what it does now. By 2030, it should be down to one-sixth. And in a decade or so, Japan should be receiving 20 percent of its total energy supply from renewable sources, more than doubling the current share. Kan also said that, by 2030, about 10 million buildings should have solar panels.
The rest of the world is way ahead of us on renewable energy, and of course the Republicans do everything they can think of to KEEP us back there and continue our subservience to their masters, oil, gas and coal.

We need to catch up with the times, but thus far we've been too stupid to keep up with other countries. Even Africa is getting in on it, as well as India.
Quote:

About 16% of global final energy consumption comes from renewables. Wind power is growing at the rate of 30% annually, with a worldwide installed capacity of 238,000 megawatts (MW) at the end of 2011,[3][4][5] and is widely used in Europe, Asia, and the United States.[6] At the end of 2011 the photovoltaic (PV) capacity worldwide was 67,000 MW, and PV power stations are popular in Germany and Italy.[7] Solar thermal power stations operate in the USA and Spain, and the largest of these is the 354 MW SEGS power plant in the Mojave Desert.[8] The world's largest geothermal power installation is the Geysers in California, with a rated capacity of 750 MW. Brazil has one of the largest renewable energy programs in the world, involving production of ethanol fuel from sugarcane, and ethanol now provides 18% of the country's automotive fuel.[9] Ethanol fuel is also widely available in the USA. Wiki
Yes, it takes time to implement...AND INVESTMENT by each government. But it's being done, it's growing, and we're lagging. The American Way.



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Saturday, April 7, 2012 10:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Please explain. Our wind farms aren't on any arable land, nor are solar plants...?



Why bother? You obviously didn't read the article I cited.


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Saturday, April 7, 2012 10:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I read it, I just don't see any mention of agriculture. I saw mention of ACREAGE, but check below--it doesn't have to be on agricultural land, nor do they intend it to be. Yes, Japan will have a tough time, but I guess YOU didn't read what I posted about Japan's intentions. They're even further behind us, and as for it being just a small island, I refer you to what the UK is doing.

If the Japanese decide to switch back to oil, gas, coal, etc., that's their decision. They have options, and, given I assume you didn't bother to read my post, there's this:
Quote:

A new energy policy, which Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan began to outline this week, would emphasize solar and wind power. n a speech this week, Kan mentioned several precise targets. By 2020, he said, solar power should cost one-third of what it does now. By 2030, it should be down to one-sixth. And in a decade or so, Japan should be receiving 20 percent of its total energy supply from renewable sources, more than doubling the current share. Kan also said that, by 2030, about 10 million buildings should have solar panels.
We all have options. It's hard now, but if we make a start, we can change over, and eventually we will HAVE to.



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Sunday, April 8, 2012 7:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I recently, within the last year, became anti nuclear power, so I like the idea of closing these down and coming up with new options. Its good that these guys are being serious about safety in this instance. The only thing that is hard about closing these plants down is that the people who work at them will be out of a job, hopefully they can find other things to do.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 2:06 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
They have options, and, given I assume you didn't bother to read my post, there's this:
Quote:

A new energy policy, which Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan began to outline this week, would emphasize solar and wind power. In a speech this week, Kan mentioned several precise targets. By 2020, he said, solar power should cost one-third of what it does now. By 2030, it should be down to one-sixth. And in a decade or so, Japan should be receiving 20 percent of its total energy supply from renewable sources, more than doubling the current share. Kan also said that, by 2030, about 10 million buildings should have solar panels.



I'd sure like to see some data on the cost of solar going down that quickly, somewhere other than in a Japanese government press release. Even the $5.00/watt price in the paper I cited seems lower than most current estimates. Seems to be like the fuel-cell car, which has been just five years away for the last 20 years.

Even if solar or wind energy production did get cheaper, you still have the problem of energy storage. Since there's currently no way to store large amounts of electricty for use as needed, you'd need enough backup generation capacity to provide 100% of electricity demand when the sun's not shining or the wind's not blowing.

I'm sure that solar will one day play a larger part in providing electricity, but until the cost comes down and some form of energy storage id developed, it's gonna be restricted to residential systems in locations, and on homes, that have the sunlight and surface exposure to gather enough wattage and store it in a reasonably parge battery pack.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 3:52 AM

BYTEMITE


5 Volt capacitors currently exist that can operate at 30 Watt hours at the higher end and cost about $50. Improvements to the wattage and output as well as giving higher energy appliances their own power source would probably reduce energy needs from a personal power source.

At the same time, you're probably going to be connected into the grid. On sunny days, you'll be generating enough electricity that you actually will sell electricity back to the grid, on cloudy days you'll take up energy from the grid. A lot of places actually experience a net income from installing solar panels, and the solar panels themselves can be paid off in ten to twelve years. If you're completely disconnected from the grid, then you'll either need to be somewhere warm or you'll need better capacitors sure. But if you're not disconnected from a grid, and the local grid takes advantage of another type of power generation then I don't see what the problem is.

Developing greenfields to put in solar farms is a dumb idea, and is either the result of government bureaucrats being so incompetent as to be unable to see completely obvious solutions, or those same bureaucrats being deliberately obtuse. All you'd have to do is put the solar panels on individual residences roofs. To help with the cost, you'd need businesses that realize the potential of installing solar panels cheap but negotiating for a cut of the output profits.

For Japan, solar panels, geothermal, and tidal should do it. If they can't manage their energy needs when they're an island nation on the ring of FIRE, then I'd have to seriously question their claims to technological and engineering superiority.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 4:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:



Even if solar or wind energy production did get cheaper, you still have the problem of energy storage. Since there's currently no way to store large amounts of electricty for use as needed,



Hello,

I recently posted an article about a (Spanish, I believe) solar power plant that did indeed store energy throughout the night for continuous power.

I also personally worked on a net zero energy home that sold excess energy during the day and bought it back at night. It was called net-zero energy because it cost the homeowner nothing to power their home once the buying and selling was complete.

That's a price I think we'd all like to pay.

So Byte is right that on the footprint of a home's roof (in many places) is all the space you need for free energy.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 4:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Anthony: I'm also very familiar with net-zero energy buildings. It depends on the region just how successful someone can be, but I do consider these buildings to be marvels of engineering and what every builder should aspire to.

This one is my favourite because it's also in one of my favourite national parks. (The first and second page, the third page is about the shuttle system which is also probably an example of how to handle high traffic load and create a less stressful environment)

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/29315.pdf

Clever and elegant engineering and design ultimately should make considerations about power and storage capacity obsolete.

However, the spanish power plant is interesting, I'll go look and see if I can't find the specs about how they're storing the energy.

EDIT: Here's the news article.

http://news.yahoo.com/solar-power-station-spain-works-night-000342166.
html

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Monday, April 9, 2012 7:49 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Please explain. Our wind farms aren't on any arable land, nor are solar plants...?



Why bother? You obviously didn't read the article I cited.




Im also curiouse as to the rationelle here....

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, April 9, 2012 9:35 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
At the same time, you're probably going to be connected into the grid. On sunny days, you'll be generating enough electricity that you actually will sell electricity back to the grid, on cloudy days you'll take up energy from the grid. A lot of places actually experience a net income from installing solar panels, and the solar panels themselves can be paid off in ten to twelve years.



But as noted, the grid needs to be able to produce enough electricity to provide during peak demand periods - be they day or night, windy or calm. You're still going to need a lot of non-renewable generating capacity for the forseeable future.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 9:42 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Nobody will build the Shipstone until we make it clear we want one.

I consider it a matter of National Security.

-Anthony


_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
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Monday, April 9, 2012 9:45 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
I recently posted an article about a (Spanish, I believe) solar power plant that did indeed store energy throughout the night for continuous power.



Might work in some instances. I was talking abut photovoltaic solar. Also wonder about local climate effects of that much heat in the air.

Quote:

I also personally worked on a net zero energy home that sold excess energy during the day and bought it back at night. It was called net-zero energy because it cost the homeowner nothing to power their home once the buying and selling was complete.

That's a price I think we'd all like to pay.



Still need the grid to provide energy at night or when solar or wind isn't generating.

Storage is going to be the key to using intermittent sources of energy like PV solar and wind. Until electricity can be stored, and probably in large units rather than in individual homes, electricity generation is gonna have to rely on fossil, hydropower, or nukes.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 9:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Might work in some instances. I was talking abut photovoltaic solar. Also wonder about local climate effects of that much heat in the air.


Hello,

As opposed to making a big fire to boil your water?

I'm not overly concerned about it. These things are usually built in hot regions, some reasonable distance from cities. They're also not adding to the existing heat, they are merely concentrating the existing heat. Powerplants that burn fuel actually add to the existing heat in an area.

--Anthony

ETC: hot regions


_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

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Monday, April 9, 2012 10:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Still need the grid to provide energy at night or when solar or wind isn't generating.


Hello,

Wind does blow at night, and waves crash all the time. Places with sun feed neighbors with wind and water when wind is low. Places with wind and water feed places with sun when sun is low. It's very cooperative.

And solar stations that store heat can provide the nighttime needs to your photovoltaic population. In fact, there's no reason Arizona couldn't be an energy provider to our neighbors if we had such installations combined with individual photovoltaic ownership.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

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Monday, April 9, 2012 10:11 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Storage is going to be the key to using intermittent sources of energy like PV solar and wind.


Hello,

I earlier half-joked about the Shipstone, but there is another thing solar energy can give you- Hydrogen. If you have a daytime energy surplus, you can use that surplus to create hydrogen (a process of which water is a byproduct) and burn the hydrogen for fuel at night. This at least provides a renewable resource fuel, and only burns half the time with much safer byproducts than coal or oil.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________
Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196
Never forget what this man is. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.”
--Thomas S. Szasz

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Monday, April 9, 2012 10:18 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But as noted, the grid needs to be able to produce enough electricity to provide during peak demand periods - be they day or night, windy or calm. You're still going to need a lot of non-renewable generating capacity for the forseeable future.


The nature of non-renewable sources means that by definition it will eventually be more cost-effective to put in renewable energy generators instead of replacing fossil fuel generators. No one said everyone had to do it all at once, and there's good enough technology for now to replace them as the older technology becomes inoperative.

And I still think it's important for people to take their own energy generation into their own hands.

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Monday, April 9, 2012 1:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm excited to see what we can come up with.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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