Can Obama come to terms with reality? by Niki2

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think the only thing that is changing right now is the proximity of an election. He has a good history of saying and doing the correct things to inspire voters. He has a poor history of doing the correct things to validate voters' choices. Though, I am curious as to what Obama will do once the lure of another term is no longer before him.

To be honest, I still haven't forgiven him for his betrayal before he became President, when he essentially forgave a massive violation of privacy. I think he did it because it was expedient, and not because it was right. I think a lot of things he does fall into that vein.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, April 13, 2012 9:47 AM

HKCAVALIER

I dunno. I'm kinda hating this whole "out of touch with reality" meme. Look. Obama, as far as I can tell is approaching the Presidency as an administrative job. He IS doing business differently in Washington, he's trying to get along with everyone and inspire folk to work together. It ain't working. That's all. He's no more out of touch with reality than anyone else up there. He didn't get where he is by being factious, okay? Hey, I get that he sucks as a President in any number of ways, but please, can we save the "he's living in a fantasy world" stuff for forum trolls?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 10:37 AM

DALEK!

I think he knows he is hated, but refuses to play that game. That's not being out of touch with reality. It is also not out of touch with reality to understand that to get things accomplished you have to compromise. If he refused to move at all he would have accomplished nothing.

I also don't get the people who say he has not accomplished anything...

http://whattheheckhasobamadonesofar.com/

...or that he has not kept any promises...

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/

Obama is hated by some (he still has over a 50% favorability rating) because of what he stands for and by others because of an unrealistic vision of what he could do.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 11:27 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Obama is hated by some (he still has over a 50% favorability rating) because of what he stands for and by others because of an unrealistic vision of what he could do.

Hello,

I think hate is a strong word, but I dislike his work as President for not doing things or supporting positions he could have and should have. He set the tone for his presidency early on, before assuming the office, when he forgave massive privacy violations.

I don't think anyone wanted the man to turn lead into gold. But we should expect our presidents to properly divide right from wrong. We should further be dismayed when they fail to do so. I feel that your appraisal of the situation ignores those who had simple, achievable expectations that he did not meet.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, April 13, 2012 1:21 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

I think the only thing that is changing right now is the proximity of an election. He has a good history of saying and doing the correct things to inspire voters. He has a poor history of doing the correct things to validate voters' choices. Though, I am curious as to what Obama will do once the lure of another term is no longer before him.

This thinking kind of bugs me. I can understand that Obama won't have to worry about reelection if he's elected to a 2nd term, but he would be about the only one who wouldn't have to worry about getting elected again. Sure, he might want to do great things, but he's got congressional Dems who DO have to worry about their next election, and chances are that not a majority of them are going to be willing to put their necks on the line to line up behind his agenda without some damned good reasons.

I know the NRA loves running on this particular fear ticket, but to me that's all it is: a fear-mongering fund-raising attempt designed to rile up their base and line Wayne LaPierre's pockets.

Quote:

To be honest, I still haven't forgiven him for his betrayal before he became President, when he essentially forgave a massive violation of privacy. I think he did it because it was expedient, and not because it was right. I think a lot of things he does fall into that vein.

I think you're right.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

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Friday, April 13, 2012 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Obama is hated by some (he still has over a 50% favorability rating) because of what he stands for and by others because of an unrealistic vision of what he could do.

Hello,

I think hate is a strong word, but I dislike his work as President for not doing things or supporting positions he could have and should have. He set the tone for his presidency early on, before assuming the office, when he forgave massive privacy violations.

I don't think anyone wanted the man to turn lead into gold. But we should expect our presidents to properly divide right from wrong. We should further be dismayed when they fail to do so. I feel that your appraisal of the situation ignores those who had simple, achievable expectations that he did not meet.

That about sums it up for me as well. He had an opportunity to at the very least INVESTIGATE to see whether laws had been violated and constitutional authority exceeded, both in warrantless wiretapping cases and in torture cases, and he chose not to, which is a dereliction of duty on both counts, and which only set the stage for further, deeper abuses to come.

"I have no real clue of what you're speaking." - AuRaptor.

"Yes. I was wrong. I am sorry." - AuRaptor.

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://beta.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51196

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Friday, April 13, 2012 1:30 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
This thinking kind of bugs me. I can understand that Obama won't have to worry about reelection if he's elected to a 2nd term, but he would be about the only one who wouldn't have to worry about getting elected again. Sure, he might want to do great things, but he's got congressional Dems who DO have to worry about their next election, and chances are that not a majority of them are going to be willing to put their necks on the line to line up behind his agenda without some damned good reasons.

Hello,

If my President stands for the right things, and his best effort cannot achieve them, then I can find no fault in him. But my President has an unfortunate habit of sitting down.

Quote:
I know the NRA loves running on this particular fear ticket, but to me that's all it is: a fear-mongering fund-raising attempt designed to rile up their base and line Wayne LaPierre's pockets.

I'm not sure what you mean by fear ticket and fear mongering. I was referring to doing things which are morally correct but politically inexpedient. Coming out against the Patriot Act and striving to get rid of it, striving mightily to end indefinite detentions, striving mightily to give people trials or set them free, striving mightily to return the remainder of our troops home, making it clear the United States will end its policy of pre-emptive aggression.

Several of these things are mostly or wholly within his power to accomplish. But it would require a boldness of character.

These are things that concern me much more than anything related to the NRA.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, April 13, 2012 2:29 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Coming out against the Patriot Act and striving to get rid of it, striving mightily to end indefinite detentions, striving mightily to give people trials or set them free, striving mightily to return the remainder of our troops home, making it clear the United States will end its policy of pre-emptive aggression.

Striving mightily is always possible to accomplish, actually accomplishing something is different.

Yes, he could have brought all the troops home his first day in office. The problem was rebuilding was still being done to repair damage we did.

That other stuff you mentioned, required more then an order from him. The fact is to succeed in politics you have to be political.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 2:50 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
That other stuff you mentioned, required more then an order from him. The fact is to succeed in politics you have to be political.

Hello,

The President has the power to move troops, shut down military detention centers, release untried military prisoners, declare and clarify US policies of war, and not sign legislation that tramples on the rights of the individual. He can do these things unilaterally.

That is striving mightily. It means doing everything in your power and stopping only when something is outside your power.

This President is a tepid striver, when he strives at all. It leads me to believe he does not share my values or beliefs about very basic human rights and war policies. Or at least he values his position more than he values those things.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, April 13, 2012 3:04 PM

Anthony, when I brought up the fear ticket, I was referring to the stuff the NRA has been doing: Saying that Obama hasn't grabbed your guns YET, but he's just waiting until he's reelected to enact his REAL agenda.

And I'm pointing out that it's just not that easy for him to do, because he's got 535 congresspeople to deal with, plus their lobbyists.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 3:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
That other stuff you mentioned, required more then an order from him. The fact is to succeed in politics you have to be political.

Hello,

The President has the power to move troops, shut down military detention centers, release untried military prisoners, declare and clarify US policies of war, and not sign legislation that tramples on the rights of the individual. He can do these things unilaterally.

That is striving mightily. It means doing everything in your power and stopping only when something is outside your power.

This President is a tepid striver, when he strives at all. It leads me to believe he does not share my values or beliefs about very basic human rights and war policies. Or at least he values his position more than he values those things.

Heck, if he really wants to strive mightily, he can even VETO something he disagrees with. Has this president vetoed anything?

And Nick, don't worry too much - it's not like I have any alternatives to vote for on the other side. Obama's biggest worry this year as far as I'm concerned is that voters like me just won't bother to vote at all. He's offering me not much to vote for, but the GOP is offering me plenty to vote AGAINST.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 3:10 PM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
That other stuff you mentioned, required more then an order from him. The fact is to succeed in politics you have to be political.

Hello,

The President has the power to move troops, shut down military detention centers, release untried military prisoners, declare and clarify US policies of war, and not sign legislation that tramples on the rights of the individual. He can do these things unilaterally.

That is striving mightily. It means doing everything in your power and stopping only when something is outside your power.

This President is a tepid striver, when he strives at all. It leads me to believe he does not share my values or beliefs about very basic human rights and war policies. Or at least he values his position more than he values those things.

Yes he can recall troops, and that would have caused more problems then a slow withdraw.

He does have the power to close military centers and release prisoners, what he does not have the power to do is drop them in countries unless they agree to it, nor does he have the power to let them in the US.

,,,and yes he certainly has that last power.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Friday, April 13, 2012 3:24 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Anthony, when I brought up the fear ticket, I was referring to the stuff the NRA has been doing: Saying that Obama hasn't grabbed your guns YET, but he's just waiting until he's reelected to enact his REAL agenda.

And I'm pointing out that it's just not that easy for him to do, because he's got 535 congresspeople to deal with, plus their lobbyists.

Hello,

It's no small irony, because when I voted for Obama I hoped for an increase of civil liberties while bracing for a fight over guns. But no, there was no tricky tradeoff. The transition from the leadership of the former President has been surprisingly uneventful.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, April 13, 2012 6:45 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The question isn't whether Obama can come to terms with reality, the question is: Can WE? The reality is that Obama has done more harm to the Constitution than Bush, and that he is mightily afraid of offending the insurances, banks, the military and the right wing.

Rather than sitting home... which I'm tempted to do, but that really IS a waste of vote... I'm voting Green. I don't even care who's running.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 6:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Didn't get back to this one until now.

Quote:
The reality is that Obama has done more harm to the Constitution than Bush

Seriously??? I don't think so, and some of what he's done was BEGUN by Bush...I never expect a President to give up power a previous President set in place, that's just reality.

I agree with a lot of what's been said. I don't know whether he's kept trying in the face of the obvious desire of the right to obstruct virtually EVERYTHING out of lack of reality, political expediency or what's been suggested here, but I sure got damned sick and tired of it! I do, however, tend to agree with

Quote:
he is mightily afraid of offending the insurances, banks, the military and the right wing.

Whether fear or, again, political expediency is behind that, but it offends me as well.

Given I never had high hopes for him in the first place, I've not been terribly disappointed, but I've been somewhat disappointed nonetheless. I'm reeeely hoping that, whether it's coming to terms with reality or no worries about re-election, he gets his act together if/when he gets a second term.

And yes, I shake my head at those who say he's done "nothing", but the rhetoric these past three years has been SO incindiary, I guess I expect no better.

As to hatred, oh, yes it is, in my opinion. I think his merely being ELECTED and only being half Black has struck fear into the hearts of racists everywhere, and has proven easily that racism is still rampant in our country. I don't believe ANY white President would have received all he's received from the right, and I think his BEING half Black has been the best weapon they ever got to use that hatred.

Will be interesting to see if a Democratic woman elected to the Presidency will provide equal fodder for the right or not--while I suspect it will provide a pretty good tool, I don't think it will be as bad.

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Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:35 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Anthony a chara,
I don't think I have told you this before but I should have, I love your eliquence, using tepid in a sentence was cool, that's a word you don't see every day. Your manner of speaking has always been something I enjoy.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 2:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Didn't get back to this one until now.
Quote:
The reality is that Obama has done more harm to the Constitution than Bush
Seriously??? I don't think so, and some of what he's done was BEGUN by Bush...I never expect a President to give up power a previous President set in place, that's just reality.

But in reality, if you're being completely objective about it, you do have to admit that Obama has taken all those powers and expanded many of them, and rolled back none of them.

Setting aside whatever else he's done that's positive, he really has harmed the Constitution in way which even Bush didn't. Bush may have pushed us off that cliff, but Obama never pulled the safety chute or did anything to slow the fall.

You can blame obstructionists or political expediency if you'd like but I (and I suspect Anthony as well) would have far more respect for a President who was willing to stop worrying about his reelection chances long enough to really do something meaningful. If you are dealing with an obstructionist opposition, then you need to do a better job of making your case to the people so that they put pressure on the opposition.

My disappointment with Obama isn't over what he did; it's over the things he DIDN'T do, and didn't even try.

That's certainly not to say that I wish someone else had been elected; there were no better alternatives, and several who were far worse, in my opinion. But I can be disappointed that the man I voted for doesn't seem to be the same man who is currently sitting behind the big desk.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Niki, I've been focused on:

Health care reform

Civil liberties

The economy

War

Starting with health care reform, Obama took single payer off the table; even tho it had majority support in the polls. He deliberately gave construction of healthcare reform to the most insurance-beholden Senator (Max Baucus). And then, after promising public option (once, reluctantly) in the State of the Union (again, it had- and still has - support of 60+% of the population) he caved on that TOO, and shoved everyone into the maw of the health insurances... a truly horrible option with Constitutional challenges. The Supreme Court will probably strike it down. When all is said and done, nothing will have been accomplished and we all will STILL be waiting for reform.

Civil liberties. Early on, Obama talked about indefinite preventive detention in a speech, and two years later he signed the bill. He arrogated to himself the power to have any American citizen killed, whether here or abroad, after what is essentially a star chamber proceeding. He has pushed for even MORE Federal powers of warrantless snooping, and advocated for any and all bills which would allow unlimited data-gathering on the inet, and inet control. He wants unlimited drone and camera surveillance within our borders. Not only has Obama NOT pulled the ripcord on our plunge into Big Brotherhood, he's gone into a dive position to get there faster.

The economy. There is no bank regulation which would prevent a repetition of the economic catastrophe that befell us. The most recent bill on IPO's waves away the independent audit requirement. Obama is still pushing international trade treaties. I could go on- not going to, YOU know as well as I that after shoveling trillions of dollars at the banks the economy is in not much better shape than before.

War: Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Establishing an American base in Australia. Yemen, Sudan. Ethiopia. Iran? Indonesia? N Korea? There isn't an intervention that Obama doesn't like.

What little good Obama has done has been miserly... nothing TOO upsetting to TPTB.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:46 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Niki, I've been focused on:

Health care reform

Civil liberties

The economy

War

Starting with health care reform, Obama took single payer off the table; even tho it had majority support in the polls. He deliberately gave construction of healthcare reform to the most insurance-beholden Senator (Max Baucus). And then, after promising public option (once, reluctantly) in the State of the Union (again, it had- and still has - support of 60+% of the population) he caved on that TOO, and shoved everyone into the maw of the health insurances... a truly horrible option with Constitutional challenges. The Supreme Court will probably strike it down. When all is said and done, nothing will have been accomplished and we all will STILL be waiting for reform.

Civil liberties. Early on, Obama talked about indefinite preventive detention in a speech, and two years later he signed the bill. He arrogated to himself the power to have any American citizen killed, whether here or abroad, after what is essentially a star chamber proceeding. He has pushed for even MORE Federal powers of warrantless snooping, and advocated for any and all bills which would allow unlimited data-gathering on the inet, and inet control. He wants unlimited drone and camera surveillance within our borders. Not only has Obama NOT pulled the ripcord on our plunge into Big Brotherhood, he's gone into a dive position to get there faster.

The economy. There is no bank regulation which would prevent a repetition of the economic catastrophe that befell us. The most recent bill on IPO's waves away the independent audit requirement. Obama is still pushing international trade treaties. I could go on- not going to, YOU know as well as I that after shoveling trillions of dollars at the banks the economy is in not much better shape than before.

War: Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya. Establishing an American base in Australia. Yemen, Sudan. Ethiopia. Iran? Indonesia? N Korea? There isn't an intervention that Obama doesn't like.

What little good Obama has done has been miserly... nothing TOO upsetting to TPTB.

Single payer had zero chance of passing, as for any tougher banking regulations. The other stuff I agree with more or less. What you have to remember is that the President is always has more information to make decisions than we do.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:58 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree with both of you, majorly. I guess I just didn't expect that much better, to a degree, and I'm pretty cynical about politicians, secondly.

I don't get how you can say

Quote:
he really has harmed the Constitution in way which even Bush didn't.

I don't know of anything Obama's done that either Bush DIDN'T do or or that Bush failed to do. I recognize the allegory, but I by far blame the guy who pushed us over the cliff--a cliff we hadn't BEEN over previously.

As to respect, obviously me, too! I suppose, again in part, that since I didn't expect to respect him, it didn't surprise me--tho' I'll freely admit, he's done a worse job than even I expected! But then, I guess I'm still somewhat naive, as I didn't think anyone would elect Bush to a SECOND term, and Bush's Presidency was worse than either Jim or I feared. Need to work on that cynicism I guess...

Quote:
disappointment with Obama isn't over what he did; it's over the things he DIDN'T do, and didn't even try.

Yup. Despite being exactly what I feared, it still disappointed me. I do, however, agree with the last part, and do believe things would be MUCH worse if McCain had been elected!

Sig: Yes, yes, yes and yes, fer shore. For me, add to that the environment, which has REALLY pissed me off! Probably least of all the wars; McCain would have had us IN Lybia, I'm guessing, and wouldn't have pulled out of Iraq. In that respect he's done better, and better than Bush. He hasn't (yet!) STARTED any wars...little tho' that might count for. And I agree with Nick on his two points. I've got at least THAT much cynicism working for me!

In my humble opinion, if the Republicans hadn't swept the 2010--like if the American people weren't so gullible (!), more could have been accomplished. Instead of the Repubs feeling like it gave them carte blanche to go nuts on the state level and accomplish just as much as they could while they had the power, AND encouraged Congress' glee in obstructionism. As far as public opinion, 1) How often do Congressmen and Senators do what the public has shown a majority opinion that they want, OR not done what the majority has shown they DON'T want; and 2) Given the right's EXTREME focus on "get Obama out", no matter what, I doubt public opinion would have made any difference anyway.

As to health insurance, I certainly agree he should have done more for that brief time they had the 60-vote majority. If he/they'd realized how rare such a thing is and REALLY pushed, at the very least FORCED a filibuster (actually, on that and everything else), I'd like to hope they'd have pulled it off. As I've said before, tho', every piece of legislation from Social Security to Medicare that was big that the Repubs didn't like--I mean REALLY didn't like!--has started out shit and been revised into something...shall we say more good than bad. I'm hoping for the same.

On that go suh personal liberties issue, that infuriated me, and admittedly, surprised even me. "Disappointed" is FAR to gentle a word!

Okay, I will now give you guys a gift. The next time I "brag" about not having voted for Obama in the primary, I've carefully refrained from mentioning who I DID vote for: Edwards. You get to excoriate me every time now. I STILL believe that, if he hadn't been such a complete dick (who in hell thinks they can get away with shit like that when running for major public office? AnswerLlots of them...but still, the hubris of these people never ceases to astonish me!), he'd have been a tougher fighter and accomplished more than Obama has. Just as I think Huntsman would have been a far better Republican candidate this time around. They both spoke TRUTHS--which of course eliminated them right away, even without their other "baggage", and the more I listened to each, looked at their records and investigated them, the more I believed they would have been good for the country.

I thought Edwards was more savvy than Obama, more experienced in dirty dealing, and more willing to take on the tough stuff. Not GOOD, mind you--when was there last a really "good" choice? But better than Romney or Obama. So there's our gift for the day....I made an even WORSE mistake than those who voted for Obama, as it turns out. (Doesn't change the fact that Obama's pretty much been what I expected, however ;o) )

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

M52-

Quote:
Single payer had zero chance of passing, as for any tougher banking regulations.

NIKI

Quote:
Given the right's EXTREME focus on "get Obama out", no matter what, I doubt public opinion would have made any difference anyway.

YES IT WOULD. Since Obama wasn't going to get meaningful reform through anyway, he would have wound up in the same place but with a history of having fought for something. Now, he not only looks ineffective he also looks spineless.

Quote:
I don't get how you can say "he really has harmed the Constitution in way which even Bush didn't." I don't know of anything Obama's done that either Bush DIDN'T do or or that Bush failed to do. I recognize the allegory, but I by far blame the guy who pushed us over the cliff--a cliff we hadn't BEEN over previously.

Obama openly assassinates American citizens abroad. Obama has signed INTO LAW indefinite preventive detention. Obama has LEGALIZED the warrantless wiretapping that Bush did in secret. Do you not think it makes a difference whether a President does something shameful in secret, or whether he signs laws to make the illegal "legal? Did you not read what I wrote?

My question still stands- it's not whether Obama can come to terms with reality. Trust me, he has... he's comfortably in bed with big business and regressive politicians. It's whether our perceptions have kept up with the truth.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 9:34 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52-
Quote:
Single payer had zero chance of passing, as for any tougher banking regulations.

NIKI
Quote:
Given the right's EXTREME focus on "get Obama out", no matter what, I doubt public opinion would have made any difference anyway.
YES IT WOULD. Since Obama wasn't going to get meaningful reform through anyway, he would have wound up in the same place but with a history of having fought for something. Now, he not only looks ineffective he also looks spineless.
Quote:
I don't get how you can say "he really has harmed the Constitution in way which even Bush didn't." I don't know of anything Obama's done that either Bush DIDN'T do or or that Bush failed to do. I recognize the allegory, but I by far blame the guy who pushed us over the cliff--a cliff we hadn't BEEN over previously.
Obama openly assassinates American citizens abroad. Obama has signed INTO LAW indefinite preventive detention. Obama has LEGALIZED the warrantless wiretapping that Bush did in secret. Do you not think it makes a difference whether a President does something shameful in secret, or whether he signs laws to make the illegal "legal? Did you not read what I wrote?

My question still stands- it's not whether Obama can come to terms with reality. Trust me, he has... he's comfortably in bed with big business and regressive politicians. It's whether our perceptions have kept up with the truth.

If Obama would have kept fighting for single payer or getter reforms we would have gotten nothing. The only reason the legislation that passed did so was because Obama compromised.

Now as far as him killing members of Al-qaeda who happen to be American citizens, I'm all for it. Don't go join a organization that is actively trying to kill Americans id you don't want a missile to hit you in the face.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 10:35 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Now as far as him killing members of Al-qaeda who happen to be American citizens, I'm all for it. Don't go join a organization that is actively trying to kill Americans id you don't want a missile to hit you in the face."

Right.

So when is the missile going to hit the White House then?

"None of you seem to understand. I'm not locked in here with you... YOU are locked in here with ME."

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Monday, April 16, 2012 11:11 AM

Quote:

Now as far as him killing members of Al-qaeda who happen to be American citizens, I'm all for it. Don't go join a organization that is actively trying to kill Americans id you don't want a missile to hit you in the face.

Was his son also an al-Qaeda member?

Are you really that comfortable with throwing away due process and the rule of law just for the perception of a tiny bit of "security"? Or are you that convinced that you could never end up on the wrong side of any such sweeping powers?

I happen to believe due process applies to all, even those who don't respect it. I guess I'm just wired funny since I believe the Constitution really should protect us all equally. I'm probably un-American for believing any of that kind of stuff...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:40 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Was his son also an al-Qaeda member?

Are you really that comfortable with throwing away due process and the rule of law just for the perception of a tiny bit of "security"? Or are you that convinced that you could never end up on the wrong side of any such sweeping powers?

I happen to believe due process applies to all, even those who don't respect it. I guess I'm just wired funny since I believe the Constitution really should protect us all equally. I'm probably un-American for believing any of that kind of stuff...

Please, your not un-American for thinking that. You don't need to throw that kind of stuff my way, I'm not Rappy or Wulf.

We're not throwing out due process completely. There is not a "you have it for all or you don't have it at all" situation in the real world. As with anything there are shades of gray. Laws are ment to protect innocent people not the guilty ones.

No I do not think I will ever be on the wrong side of such power because I don't beleive in the slipperly slope argument.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Was his son also an al-Qaeda member?

Are you really that comfortable with throwing away due process and the rule of law just for the perception of a tiny bit of "security"? Or are you that convinced that you could never end up on the wrong side of any such sweeping powers?

I happen to believe due process applies to all, even those who don't respect it. I guess I'm just wired funny since I believe the Constitution really should protect us all equally. I'm probably un-American for believing any of that kind of stuff...

Please, your not un-American for thinking that. You don't need to throw that kind of stuff my way, I'm not Rappy or Wulf.

We're not throwing out due process completely. There is not a "you have it for all or you don't have it at all" situation in the real world. As with anything there are shades of gray. Laws are ment to protect innocent people not the guilty ones.

Silly me - I thought laws were to protect everyone, the guilty and the innocent, the just and the unjust alike.

Quote:

No I do not think I will ever be on the wrong side of such power because I don't beleive in the slipperly slope argument.

With all due respect, then you haven't been paying attention.

The warrantless wiretaps were ONLY to be used in terrorism cases. Within just a few years, they were being used in THOUSANDS of cases, with as few as SEVEN being linked to any kind of terrorism investigation in any way.

I'm old enough to remember when Texas was debating whether or not to pass a seatbelt law. We were told point-blank that it was ONLY going to be brought up if you were pulled over for another reason, and that not wearing your seatbelt would NEVER be considered reason enough to pull you over. Now you can be pulled over if a cop says he didn't think you were wearing your seatbelt because he didn't see it, and you can have your blood drawn against your will.

The slope is not only slippery, it's getting steeper!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:51 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Silly me - I thought laws were to protect everyone, the guilty and the innocent, the just and the unjust alike.

Yup, silly you. The laws are not meant to protect those who are guilty of crimes, but to protect the innocent from those people.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
With all due respect, then you haven't been paying attention.

The warrantless wiretaps were ONLY to be used in terrorism cases. Within just a few years, they were being used in THOUSANDS of cases, with as few as SEVEN being linked to any kind of terrorism investigation in any way.

I'm old enough to remember when Texas was debating whether or not to pass a seatbelt law. We were told point-blank that it was ONLY going to be brought up if you were pulled over for another reason, and that not wearing your seatbelt would NEVER be considered reason enough to pull you over. Now you can be pulled over if a cop says he didn't think you were wearing your seatbelt because he didn't see it, and you can have your blood drawn against your will.

I was talking about drone attacks and killing US citizens in the field of battle. I agree with you on the warrantless wiretaps. We were told one thing, but they are being used much different. As such they should not be used.

Now I don't know what the seatbelt laws say in Texas, but if you were told one thing and the laws says something else you were tricked. As far as the blood draw, It is most likely you consented to have that done as part of having a drivers license.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:44 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
The laws are not meant to protect those who are guilty of crimes,

Hello,

Yes, the laws protect the guilty from injustice, too. Even the guilty are entitled to certain rights and standards of decency under the law.

The laws also protect the accused.

Quote:
I was talking about drone attacks and killing US citizens in the field of battle.

No special rule was needed to kill someone engaged in aggression on the field of battle. Rules had to be changed to allow the assassination of the accused.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Silly me - I thought laws were to protect everyone, the guilty and the innocent, the just and the unjust alike.

Yup, silly you. The laws are not meant to protect those who are guilty of crimes, but to protect the innocent from those people.

Really? Is that what the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are about? Protecting the innocent from the guilty?

Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
With all due respect, then you haven't been paying attention.

The warrantless wiretaps were ONLY to be used in terrorism cases. Within just a few years, they were being used in THOUSANDS of cases, with as few as SEVEN being linked to any kind of terrorism investigation in any way.

I'm old enough to remember when Texas was debating whether or not to pass a seatbelt law. We were told point-blank that it was ONLY going to be brought up if you were pulled over for another reason, and that not wearing your seatbelt would NEVER be considered reason enough to pull you over. Now you can be pulled over if a cop says he didn't think you were wearing your seatbelt because he didn't see it, and you can have your blood drawn against your will.

I was talking about drone attacks and killing US citizens in the field of battle. I agree with you on the warrantless wiretaps. We were told one thing, but they are being used much different. As such they should not be used.

Too late now. They're already being used that way. So are drone attacks. Easier to ask forgiveness after the fact than to ask permission beforehand, it seems.

Do you see anyone in Congress or the White House feverishly working to roll back those abuses of power? Me neither. So instead of just trusting them and hoping they won't abuse the power, how's about we don't give them such powers to start with?

Quote:

Now I don't know what the seatbelt laws say in Texas, but if you were told one thing and the laws says something else you were tricked. As far as the blood draw, It is most likely you consented to have that done as part of having a drivers license.

Nope, and nope. The seatbelt law was passed one way, then changed incrementally over the years. And I've never consented to a blood draw, except when I volunteer to give blood. There is no such "consent" decree in Texas that's tied to having a driver's license.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 11:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I honestly think this man has been sheltered and coddled so much through out his life, the concept of anyone disagreeing w/ him, on the major issues, is bewildering to him.

His arrogance and stubbornness are unequaled in the modern era. And division seems to be his middle name. Injecting race, class, gender warfare into just about everything he does.

And as for compromise... I'm glad there's not more. He wants to drive the country over the cliff, and the GOP want to save it. It's either extinction ( ha! There's your Darwinism ) or existence. I choose the latter, thank you.

And as for 'social Darwinism', that's pretty much what our founding fathers fought for in the first place. It's called FREEDOM. Obama's reckless view, that the Constitution only contains 'negative' rights, completely ignores the history of this country. It's freedom FROM a tyrannical govt which is why we fought for independence, not so that big govt could tell what to do....

People don't like to be meddled with.
We tell them what to do, what to think.
Don't run, don't walk.
We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right.
We're meddlesome.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:37 AM

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Really? Is that what the Fourth and Fifth Amendments are about? Protecting the innocent from the guilty?

Those about protect the innocent as well. Without due process the innocent can get punished for things they havn't done. However there are times when due process is unneeded and become nothing but a show.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Too late now. They're already being used that way. So are drone attacks. Easier to ask forgiveness after the fact than to ask permission beforehand, it seems.

Do you see anyone in Congress or the White House feverishly working to roll back those abuses of power? Me neither. So instead of just trusting them and hoping they won't abuse the power, how's about we don't give them such powers to start with?

Not giving them the power and rolling back that power both depends on voting the right people into office, and voting the wrong people out. So yes the wireless wiretapping should be rolled back.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Nope, and nope. The seatbelt law was passed one way, then changed incrementally over the years.

Okay, so what is the problem?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And I've never consented to a blood draw, except when I volunteer to give blood. There is no such "consent" decree in Texas that's tied to having a driver's license.

You're right that is not how the law is written in Texas. If you refuse to be subjected to a breath or chemical test your lisence is suspended for 90 days. So taking the test or not is still your choice.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, April 18, 2012 1:50 AM