It's not that Liberals are ignorant, it's that they know so much which isn't true. by AURaptor

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
In Florida an ID card cost $25. That is extra money some may not have.

I find it hard to believe that a one-time cost of $25.00 is gonna prevent anyone who wants to vote from voting.

Now if a voter ID law also included provisions that allow individual to get an ID card and the paperwork needed to get that ID free of charge there would be little argument against it.

Some states do issue free I.D.s. Georgia for example.

http://www.sos.georgia.gov/GAPhotoID/default.htm

I would suspect that if the courts rule against voter I.D. laws in other states due to the cost to the voter, those states will also create a provision to issue I.D. for free.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 2:19 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:
evidence presented in the case so far shows 600,000 people will be unable to vote if the law is enforced and that minorities would be impacted the most
Where's Geezer to argue that point?

Because it's pretty much meaningless. Sure 600,000 people would be unable to vote, IF THEY DIDN'T TAKE THE TIME TO GET A PHOTO I.D. Since they've already, one would hope, committed to the voting process by registering, seems like they could take the extra step and get the I.D.

Sorry, but it's just a scare headline with no basis in the real world, which is used to inflame partisan passions. Seems to work, too.

Quote:
My question, once again, is if it would have no effect, WHY DO IT? Logically, politicians/legislators rarely do something they think won't have some sort of effect...if this wouldn't (despite evidence to the contrary), why would they bother?

Because the state's Republicans can make political hay out of it. Liberals, nationally, seem to be making hay out of it too, as shown by your continued references.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:54 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
In Florida an ID card cost $25. That is extra money some may not have.

I find it hard to believe that a one-time cost of $25.00 is gonna prevent anyone who wants to vote from voting.

Now if a voter ID law also included provisions that allow individual to get an ID card and the paperwork needed to get that ID free of charge there would be little argument against it.

For a lot of people $25 is a lot of money.

As I said you will not hear arguments from me when people can get the ID and supporting documents for free.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 4:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Don't forget that Geezer is the one who thought that poor people should be able to eat better if they bought in bulk and cooked at home. Forgetting that many poor people don't have freezers, cars, or even adequate cooking facilities. He's kinda the Anne Romney of the board.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:37 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
For a lot of people $25 is a lot of money.

I'm kind of doubting that $25 every eight years is going to make much difference to a "lot" of people. For the folks who do have such problems, I would suggest that the same voluntary organizations that provide transport to the polls for those who can't afford it could step in.

Quote:
As I said you will not hear arguments from me when people can get the ID and supporting documents for free.

As noted, I expect that most states that want to require photo I.D. will have to end up providing them for free.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:

Sorry, but it's just a scare headline with no basis in the real world, which is used to inflame partisan passions. Seems to work, too.

Sorta like the the claims of widespread voter fraud...

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Don't forget that Geezer is the one who thought that poor people should be able to eat better if they bought in bulk and cooked at home. Forgetting that many poor people don't have freezers, cars, or even adequate cooking facilities. He's kinda the Anne Romney of the board.

You're being too kind.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:42 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
For a lot of people $25 is a lot of money.

I'm kind of doubting that $25 every eight years is going to make much difference to a "lot" of people. For the folks who do have such problems, I would suggest that the same voluntary organizations that provide transport to the polls for those who can't afford it could step in.

Then you don't understand the poor.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:44 AM

The poor can't afford to buy things? Well, that's easy - they should have more money.

Compassionate Conservatism.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:52 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Don't forget that Geezer is the one who thought that poor people should be able to eat better if they bought in bulk and cooked at home. Forgetting that many poor people don't have freezers, cars, or even adequate cooking facilities.

"There are some appliances that are commonplace in the home regardless of income level. These appliances are refrigerators, cooking appliances (which includes the standard oven with stove-top burners, separate stove and ovens, and toaster ovens), and color televisions. The percent of households that have them are as follows:

Refrigerator 99.9%
Cooking appliance 99.7%
Color television 98.9%"

http://www.eia.gov/emeu/recs/appliances/appliances.html

So it seems that most folks, regardless of income, have a fridge (which would generally include a freezer), and some sort of cooking appliance. If folks can afford a color TV, they should be able to buy a small chest freezer.

As an aside, Madame Geezer and I have been doing all our cooking with nothing but a hotplate and toaster oven since our kitchen was gutted for a remodel(two months. There were some delays to the start date). We manage to turn out healthy, non-processed food with just a little planning and not much investment of time. We even wash all the dishes by hand.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 5:54 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:

Sorry, but it's just a scare headline with no basis in the real world, which is used to inflame partisan passions. Seems to work, too.

Sorta like the the claims of widespread voter fraud...

Exactly.

I've been saying over and over that it's just a political football for both sides.

Please try to keep up.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, as you are an intelligent man I recall - and I'm sure you do too- that Kiki went through a typical month's budget and showed that it often comes down to a choice between rent and food, Also, buying in bulk... that half side of beef you talked about... requires not only a car for transport but also a SEPARATE freezer... not the itty-bitty one that comes with a frig.

So, thanks for playing Anne Romney today. Keep it up- you're doing a good job.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:11 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Then you don't understand the poor.

Well, I don't consider "The Poor" some monolithic mass, as you seem to do. I expect they are a lot of different folks with different attitudes and priorities. Some will be willing to give up something to vote. Some won't. Some people, not necessarily poor, are willing to give up the time it takes to vote, and some aren't.

I know one guy who shoots down at Quantico who has been out of work for a year, has lost his house, and is pretty much broke. He still shows up most every week to help with rifle matches or instruct new shooters. Those are his priorities. I understand him.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:14 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Geezer, as you are an intelligent man I recall - and I'm sure you do too- that Kiki went through a typical month's budget and showed that it often comes down to a choice between rent and food...

In one particular circumstance.

So what was your solution that was going to completely fix the problem of poor nutrition for absolutely every person who can't afford to have their limo take them to the Whole Foods every day?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I'm kind of doubting that $25 every eight years is going to make much difference to a "lot" of people.

Wow. I wonder how much interaction you've had with poor people. For one thing, if that $25 represents a major cost, AND (in many cases) time off work, many people are just going to pass; they may not like it, but given how many Americans just don't vote, period, it's obvious that if you make it more difficult, even more won't. Especially in an election year where people feel disenfranchised as they do now. Sure, FERVENT voters would find a way, but making it more difficult means that many won't. It's not a necessity, ergo there is less impetus to make the effort and come up with the money to do it. It would be interesting to see how many middle-class people would make the effort if it applied to THEM.

"Every eight years" is irrelevant; they're being hit with this out of the blue and unprepared for it; I'm pretty sure the laws will all be struck down (several already have and more are in the works), but whether it's done before this November is the big question, and in some cases I'm betting it won't.

The idea of some group providing transportation is also irrelevant; I'm sure there will be some if it ends up being necessary, but you're talking about a LOT of distance, coordination, planning and money, as well as informing people, and once again, they'd still have to take a full day off in many places in states like Texas. For some poor people, losing one day of work gets you fired, especially when there are so many out of work. In those circumstances, how many would actually take the chance? Yes, I'm sure there's some legality that employer's "must", but we know how well THAT works!

For another thing, I can't believe you ignore the fact that Texas, for one, has only a few places people can GET IDs--you do know how big Texas is, right? That means many, many people would have to take more than a bit of time off or spend $25...they'd have to take as much as a day off and spend money for gas to drive a LONG way to get an ID. Which is the point of the laws. They're thinly-disguised Jim Crow laws; just as the anti-abortion bunch have figured ways to make abortion virtually impossible for the poor, despite it being the law of the land, this works exactly the same.

Regarding registration: Registration is easy and takes no effort; there have been voter registrations drives for ages where people stand outside supermarkets, etc., to make it possible. No money or effort is required.

In the end, given the states who have already implemented it or are trying, I don't see how anyone can come to any other conclusion that it's a tactic to elminate exactly the same portion of the population as their earlier attempts. ALEC doesn't come up with these things on their own, and they don't use their "model bill" strategy to do it in many states at once for no reason.

We have vote by mail, too, and it makes it as easy as humanly possible to vote. No effort, cost of mail provided, and even THERE we're getting voter suppression, almosts exclusively from the right:

Quote:
Allegations of voter suppression are spreading in Northern California. Residents are reporting to have received registration cards with a fake voter ID number and a do-not-forward stamp on the envelope. The envelopes are said to bear a return to the RNC's "Voter Identification Division", which the RNC staffers says does not actually exist.[1]

Janie Sheppard, a Mendocino County attorney and voting rights advocate, says the letter is the first step of voter caging, a voter suppression tactic.

"Let's say you are a Republican and you don't want Democrats to vote. You send out official-looking notices to the Democrats that you don't want to vote. On the envelope on the outside will say do not forward. So, if it gets returned, the Republicans will go to the polls, they'll have challengers there who will challenge that person's right to vote. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Rumors_of_voter_suppression_in_n
orthern_California]

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:24 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So what was your solution that was going to completely fix the problem of poor nutrition for absolutely every person who can't afford to have their limo take them to the Whole Foods every day?

You obviously have never struggled with four grocery bags on a public bus and then walked the next quarter mile home. The way you trivialize the problem make it plainly evident that YOUR solution is "let them eat cake".

Quote:
As an aside, Madame Geezer and I have been doing all our cooking with nothing but a hotplate and toaster oven since our kitchen was gutted for a remodel(two months. There were some delays to the start date). We manage to turn out healthy, non-processed food with just a little planning and not much investment of time. We even wash all the dishes by hand.

I find it curious that the Romney supporters are tightly statistically tied to Williams-Sonoma; in the political biz they're called Williams-Sonoma Republicans: foodies who like to get the latest walnut muddler to use on their new granite countertops. You DID go with granite in your kitchen re-do, did you not?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 6:41 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You obviously have never struggled with four grocery bags on a public bus and then walked the next quarter mile home.

So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?

Wow. Do you really think this twisted question should be answered? Silly boy! Stupid questions don't deserve answers.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?

Seriously??!?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:49 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
In Florida an ID card cost $25. That is extra money some may not have.

I find it hard to believe that a one-time cost of $25.00 is gonna prevent anyone who wants to vote from voting.

I hear ya. I find it similarly hard to believe that raising the top income tax rate 3% is going to force a widespread exodus of the top 1% from this country.

But thanks for conceding the point that many of these states are indeed enacting a poll tax on people who wish to exercise their right to vote.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:55 AM

So Geezer thinks that disenfranchising 600,000 poor in one state (Texas) is no big deal, is "meaningless" in his words, yet somehow voter fraud is such a huge deal because of... WHAT, exactly?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Geezer, as you are an intelligent man I recall - and I'm sure you do too- that Kiki went through a typical month's budget and showed that it often comes down to a choice between rent and food...

In one particular circumstance.

So what was your solution that was going to completely fix the problem of poor nutrition for absolutely every person who can't afford to have their limo take them to the Whole Foods every day?

I doubt there IS one monolithic solution that is "going to completely fix the problem of poor nutrition for absolutely every person who can't afford to have their limo take them to the Whole Foods every day", but I'm pretty sure not charging them $25 to vote is a pretty good starting point.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 16, 2012 8:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You obviously have never struggled with four grocery bags on a public bus and then walked the next quarter mile home.

So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?

Ummmmm... "Trickle down"? [/sarcasm]

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 16, 2012 8:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:

You truly are the one of the most uneducated fucks I have come across. By your thinking you should hate and being trying to defeat the entire insurance industry because it works because some people will have less claims and pay for those who have more. That is the way it works you stupid twit. It works within the market, that is why Obama care was an invention of conservatives and the right.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Sentence structure needs work, genius.

Artificial Govt mandates aren't exactly the FREE market now, are they, hmmm ? Uneducated fuck.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Monday, April 16, 2012 9:25 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sentence structure needs work, genius.

Artificial Govt mandates aren't exactly the FREE market now, are they, hmmm ? Uneducated fuck.

Did I say FREE market? NOOOOOOOOO! I said market, as in the insurance market which only works because some people will pay for the others claims.

So yes, you are an uneducated fuck.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 9:57 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Artificial Govt mandates aren't exactly the FREE market now, are they, hmmm ?

Just jumping in here: Is a free market health care system what you would want Rap? Do you know what that would look like?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:I'm proven right, and you're the ones who absolutely believe fairy tales, like AGW , and then doubling down on your Left wing propaganda.

"Sentence structure needs work, genius."

That retort will come in very handy when dealing with you, Rappy. Thanks for that!

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Monday, April 16, 2012 1:09 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Sentence structure needs work, genius."

That retort will come in very handy when dealing with you, Rappy. Thanks for that!

It would not be necessary if the resident "grammar fairy" was a little less biased.
Auraptor was simply doing your job since you can only find fault with certain members grammar.

And as an aside, is it just me or is there a lot of "hate Geezer" going on here?

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Monday, April 16, 2012 1:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Sentence structure needs work, genius."

That retort will come in very handy when dealing with you, Rappy. Thanks for that!

It would not be necessary if the resident "grammar fairy" was a little less biased.
Auraptor was simply doing your job since you can only find fault with certain members grammar.

And as an aside, is it just me or is there a lot of "hate Geezer" going on here?

*members'

It's just you.

And by all means, use the Spelling Fairy log-in and go about correcting some of that bad grammar. I've made it available to several users, and it's always been available to all who ask. It was always intended as a site-wide resource.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, April 16, 2012 3:00 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No hate geezer. Problem, is, when he comes back with a question like "So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?" you know he's lost it.

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Monday, April 16, 2012 4:59 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Actually urban reclaimation farming is doing a damn good bit towards that solution, but I digress.

I love it when folks act like $25 is nothing, you can tell they've never been starveling poor...
Do you have ANY IDEA how *much* food I can squirrel away for twenty-five bucks ?
I mean it might not meet some federal nutrition guideline but find me someone starved half to death and ask them if they give a fuck, hell, some chunk of the time that's MY entire food budget for a week!

This doesn't even take into account poor folks who lack any means of transportation and are too far off for our pathetic, underserved, untrustworthy and damn near useless public transportation infrastructure to make any use of it, who are then stuck dealing with rapacious local markets who charge 2-6 TIMES the price on the shelves of the supermarkets your car can reach.
Throw in the time factor and then transportation expense and the "cost" climbs radically above that "mere" $25

But as usual, a waste of words on folks so mentally out of touch their whole concept is embodied in wishful thinking economics proven to have never once worked as advertised, so the only reason I bother is in hopes of maybe staving off the robespierrian purge which now looms all but inevitable when these intolerant rightwing gits finally tip the patience of enough of humanity to cause a devastating landslide in the other direction - because the violence and destruction of that is something I'd prefer to not have happen...
But yanno, if it's GONNA happen, if things come to a pass where nothing less awful will serve, because the choice comes down to that purge or letting them destroy all, CHEAP AT THE PRICE.

-Frem

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:13 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?
Wow. Do you really think this twisted question should be answered? Silly boy! Stupid questions don't deserve answers.

Seems to be on the same level with saying that, since some poor people might not easily be able to prepare their own healthy food, that it's a bad idea overall.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:15 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
In Florida an ID card cost $25. That is extra money some may not have.

I find it hard to believe that a one-time cost of $25.00 is gonna prevent anyone who wants to vote from voting.

I hear ya. I find it similarly hard to believe that raising the top income tax rate 3% is going to force a widespread exodus of the top 1% from this country.

Mike. I've proposed higher taxes, including the Buffet Rule, several times.

Please try to keep up.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:25 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So Geezer thinks that disenfranchising 600,000 poor in one state (Texas) is no big deal, is "meaningless" in his words, yet somehow voter fraud is such a huge deal because of... WHAT, exactly?

As noted before, that would be 600,000 if absolutely none of the folks in Texas who the Justice Department estimates don't have a photo I.D. (assuming their estimate is even close to correct) bothers to get one.

And I've also noted before that the voter fraud/voter I.D. issue is a huge deal only because the political parties can make political hay out of it.

The Republicans say they're trying to prevent voter fraud, and hinting that the scary illegal immigrants will be fraudulently voting Democratic.

The Democrats frame it as the return of Jim Crow and talk about the travails and hardship that all the (Democratic-voting) folks who for some reason don't have a photo I.D. will face to get one.

The actual voter fraud either way will be minimal.

Please try to keep up.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No hate geezer. Problem, is, when he comes back with a question like "So what was your total, one-size-fits-all solution that would make the food appear on the table with no work at all?" you know he's lost it.

SignyM.

When you make this statement,

"Don't forget that Geezer is the one who thought that poor people should be able to eat better if they bought in bulk and cooked at home. Forgetting that many poor people don't have freezers, cars, or even adequate cooking facilities. He's kinda the Anne Romney of the board."

it indicates to me that you must be looking for that "one-size-fits-all" solution, since you'll throw out a suggestion that can work for many people because it won't work for all people.

So, do you have a solution, or are you just knocking other people's ideas?

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 2:47 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
And as an aside, is it just me or is there a lot of "hate Geezer" going on here?

Not really hate, in my opinion.

Just a lot of stereotyping.

If I disagree with the Liberal folks here on any issue, or fail to agree 100% with any of the Liberal political bloggers they frequently post, they believe I must be a Republican-voting, gay-bashing, pro-life, tax-breaks-for-the-rich, immigrant-hating, war-mongering, water-boarding so and so. That they're pretty much wrong about all these points, and that I've pointed this out innumerable times, seems to have no effect on their preconceptions at all, as they repeat them again and again, along with numerous personal insults.

They probably think pretty much the same of you.

Get used to it.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 7:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GEEZER:
Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
And as an aside, is it just me or is there a lot of "hate Geezer" going on here?

Not really hate, in my opinion.

Just a lot of stereotyping.

If I disagree with the Liberal folks here on any issue, or fail to agree 100% with any of the Liberal political bloggers they frequently post, they believe I must be a Republican-voting, gay-bashing, pro-life, tax-breaks-for-the-rich, immigrant-hating, war-mongering, water-boarding so and so. That they're pretty much wrong about all these points, and that I've pointed this out innumerable times, seems to have no effect on their preconceptions at all, as they repeat them again and again, along with numerous personal insults.

They probably think pretty much the same of you.

Get used to it.

And you do the exact same thing. Don't try to be coy and pretend you don't. It's unbecoming.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:05 AM