War on Men by BYTEMITE

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I support anyone who craves equal rights. There are inequities in certain systems that favor one person over another for dubious reasons.

On the other hand, I am suspicious of anyone who describes their sex as 'oppressed providers.'

The idea of any sex as a designated 'provider' should be a thing of the past, yet I sense they are rejecting to 'oppressed' and not the idea that they are perceived to have a special 'provider' role.

The idea of complaining about successful suicide rates is boggling to me. It's like claiming to be a victim of your own competence.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I am kind of similar in opinion on it, Byte.

My issue is with folks who for all their talk of equality, are in truth seeking revenge for some perceived slight.
Mind you, I don't think that unwarranted in many cases, but as I've been known to tell women who seem to wanna take those issues out on me, to deliver that revenge on people who have specifically, themselves, done nothing TO you, feeds the cycle and makes you every bit as bad as what you claim to be against.

And that goes for men too, since a lot of these guys do the same bullshit - not to mention given the rightwingnut push to dehumanize women and strip them of their rights and personhood from a tremendous imbalance of legal power and authority...
Till these folk stand against THAT, publicly and loudly, they can kiss my ass.

As with politics, these issues too - most of em arguing about who gets to hold the leash, who gets to oppress who...
And not a fuckin ONE of em interested in cutting the leash or ending the oppression!

Human Rights for ALL Humans - or it's just tyranny any way you slice it.

-Frem

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 5:31 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Human Rights for ALL Humans - or it's just tyranny any way you slice it.
-Frem

That is why I don't like the term feminist. I think of myself as a humanist. (Yes, I know humanism is actually something different.)

Just like we need to start seeing children (legally and socially) as humans with equal rights, we need to do the same with both genders.

-----
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
is all the sad world needs.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox, poet (1850-1919)

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Thursday, May 17, 2012 8:23 PM

Anthony: Apparently women actually attempt suicide more than men do, but also fail more often. Men tend to be more successful than women at suicide, so more of them die.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:34 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Anthony: Apparently women actually attempt suicide more than men do, but also fail more often. Men tend to be more successful than women at suicide, so more of them die.

Hello,

Yes, I gathered that. Hence my 'victims of competence' line.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Anthony, the "oppressed providers" thing made me snort. And what the hell is "genital integrity"??

If they want to talk about oppressed providers, I think there are far more women who's husbands or lovers walked out on them and any baby resulting from the union, and skip out on any kind of financial support. They're far more "oppressed providers", as I see it.

I recognize there is unfairness to both sides, but I'm sorry, given history I find it difficult to see men as "oppressed" in any way. For me, it's more "evening things up", and it's natural for those who've had the power throughout history to be pissed off when some of it is taken away, it's human nature.

But they get little sympahy from me. Rape is still frequent (and now in the military, even worse), spousal abuse is by FAR more committed by men, and men are still the vast majority of those in power. Maybe if/when we even things up, I'll take "oppression" of men more seriously...but we're VERY far from that!

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:22 AM

Well, I think it's a valid complaint that your people are actually dying, but I don't see how it makes female attempted suicides not as important an issue. There's a lot of their logic that I don't think I understand.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:25 AM

Quote:
And what the hell is "genital integrity"??

Circumcision. Which I actually kind of agree with, I think it's a barbaric and outdated practice for both genders. It should only be used as a medical treatment for certain conditions, and not generally used on infants who can't consent to it.

Quote:
I think there are far more women who's husbands or lovers walked out on them and any baby resulting from the union, and skip out on any kind of financial support.

I think that there's a responsibility from both parties towards a child, which sometimes men don't want to take on and they might hide behind arguments like this. But on the other hand, I do think there is something to be argued about fairness in the case where the woman's income far exceeds the guy's income. And there's also cases out there of forcing guys to pay child support when there hasn't been a paternity test, or even when there HAS been a paternity test and they aren't even the father - girls sometimes engage in something called a "baby trap" to that end.

Also obviously, child custody can be unfair for men and women, especially IN the case when women are expected to raise the children on a meager income, but also, some men DO have some interest in being fathers, and they understandably get a little upset when their ex-wife has full custody, the guy only has visitation rights, and the ex-wife moves to another state entirely.

Quote:
I'll take "oppression" of men more seriously...but we're VERY far from that!

You don't have to focus on just one or another. You can't even things up if there ARE pitfalls on the other side of the equation due to restrictive social gender roles. I agree that the way to even things up is to not take away the gains of one gender, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't work for both genders to have gains.

These damn gender role ideas have GOT to GO. You've heard me argue this before. But it's the only way to have a truly equitable society for both groups.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:48 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Anthony: Apparently women actually attempt suicide more than men do, but also fail more often. Men tend to be more successful than women at suicide, so more of them die.

Isn't that partially due to tendancies toward methods? Ive read that women generally try for methods which have less noticible physical imapct - pills, cutting, etc - which also have the "benefit" of being less reliable. Whereas a man is more likely to just shoot himself, or something else more likely to work, but leave more of a mess.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, May 18, 2012 7:01 AM

Could be, not sure. Would probably explain it, and also explain WHY women tend to be less successful - if they want to be a PRETTY corpse, they don't seem to grasp the concept of this whole self-loathing want to die thing.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 7:24 AM

MINCINGBEAST

There is no war on the men. Some of the more feeble members of the Patriarchy have merely adopted the rhetoric of feminists. This indicates how potent they believe the rhetoric to be.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 9:16 AM

Quote Bytemite: "WHY women tend to be less successful - if they want to be a
PRETTY corpse, they don't seem to grasp the concept of this whole self-loathing
want to die thing."

You sure like to keep it simple . . . not accurate, but simple.

1. When a woman ODs, I doubt that "pretty corpse" ever crosses her mind.
2. Self-loathing is not always the primary motivation for suicide.

I remind myself that you are young and have only been thru 3 of the major
passages: birth, adolescence and adulthood. There's more to come.

You speak of freedom from roles, a key issue. So don't be so ready to pidgeon-
hole others, including the women.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 9:37 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by MINCINGBEAST:
There is no war on the men. Some of the more feeble members of the Patriarchy have merely adopted the rhetoric of feminists. This indicates how potent they believe the rhetoric to be.

The Beast speaks the truth of it.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, May 18, 2012 9:46 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Anthony: Apparently women actually attempt suicide more than men do, but also fail more often. Men tend to be more successful than women at suicide, so more of them die.

I certainly hope that men's rights activists have a higher successful suicide rate.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 1:22 PM

Oonj, I don't know your history or your backstory, you might have experienced it a different way and that's fine, but don't tell me how to be depressed and suicidal. I damn well know it's not about pretty corpses.

That said, we can't dismiss the possibility there's a subconscious influence of the media on women about how they should ALWAYS look attractive with all their fad diets and make up and fashion. Perhaps, even, in death.

Quote:
I remind myself that you are young and have only been thru 3 of the major
passages: birth, adolescence and adulthood. There's more to come.

If I'm LUCKY, then no, there won't be. Save your wisdom for someone who matters and has a future.

Quote:
So don't be so ready to pidgeon-hole others, including the women.

I have no idea what this means, and I suspect I don't want to know. However, what I do pick up on is that you're accusing me of hypocrisy. If your aim was to make me very angry, congratulations. Wildly successful endeavor.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 1:23 PM

Quote:
I certainly hope that men's rights activists have a higher successful suicide rate.

No. Let's not be wishing suicide on groups of people.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 3:04 PM

There definatiley are a lot of "curves" to consider BYTE,

Today as children of all races (before we're 18), we're all considered not only 100% equal, but 1000% more important than any other demographic out there. And, at that age, why shouldn't we be???? We're the ones that get our parents to spend tens of thousands of dollars on shit they'd never buy for themselves over the years, and even though many college graduates today are lucky to be working at JC Penny folding clothes, we're the future leaders, right?

At 18 though, something dramatically shifts in todays workforce environment.

It's definately not one-sided, mind you, so don't think this is an attack on women or minorities.

After 18, we all leave the "no child left behind" bubble of security. Even if we have parents with good jobs, their health insurance no longer covers us unless we seek expensive education that lately isn't giving hardly anyone a good Return on Investment when they graduate.

But for those of us who don't have a "leg up" from a family member or friend who can get us in the door today, your average White Male without a degree will not be able to find a job that isn't part time without benefits. I say this from experience. Just over 2 years ago, I was making 55k a year after two promotions and nearly 5% "merit" raises every year from my bosses. Today, I can't even get a call back from Aldi about a part time cashier position.

There are two reasons for this, which from the business standpoint of the ones running the shows at the companies I completely understand.

1) On average, a female and/or minority still makes less money than a white male in the same job.

2) There are legal and standard tax credits today given to corporations who hire women and minorities over whites and males, and especially in the lower tier jobs, the tax benifits COMPLETELY outweigh the negative aftermaths of hiring people who are sub par for the job based solely off of demographics.

I rarely hear any bitching from minorities about this, but I constantly hear bitching from Women about it.

Bottom line, I'll grant you that you still get paid less when you work the same job your husband would work....

At the same time, if you were to both be unfortunately laid off from your job on the same day, you'd find a job making enough money to satisfy your efforts 3 times as fast as he would, and that's only assuming you're in your 20's-40's.... the gap becomes exponential when a man reaches 50 and is laid off.

All I need is 9 bucks an hour full time, and hopefully some catastrophic health insurance, and I'm good to go.

I just can't find it.....

Every application I fill out asks questions about whether I'm a male or female, what my age is, if I'm Caucasian or Mexican or Black.....

Sure, they tell me it's only for record keeping purposes, and that they're only doing it because Federal laws require them to, but if I said "prefer not to answer" to any of those questions my application gets thrown in the trash bin even faster than it already is.

I took the high road here, and didn't even go into child custody and child support. Don't even get me started on that.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 3:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
There definatiley are a lot of "curves" to consider BYTE,

Today as children of all races (before we're 18), we're all considered not only 100% equal, but 1000% more important than any other demographic out there. And, at that age, why shouldn't we be???? We're the ones that get our parents to spend tens of thousands of dollars on shit they'd never buy for themselves over the years, and even though many college graduates today are lucky to be working at JC Penny folding clothes, we're the future leaders, right?

At 18 though, something dramatically shifts in todays workforce environment.

It's definately not one-sided, mind you, so don't think this is an attack on women or minorities.

After 18, we all leave the "no child left behind" bubble of security. Even if we have parents with good jobs, their health insurance no longer covers us unless we seek expensive education that lately isn't giving hardly anyone a good Return on Investment when they graduate.

Wrong. You can now be carried on your parents' insurance until age 26. Thank President Obama for that. (Or blame him for it, which is more likely what you'll do...)

Quote:

But for those of us who don't have a "leg up" from a family member or friend who can get us in the door today, your average White Male without a degree will not be able to find a job that isn't part time without benefits. I say this from experience. Just over 2 years ago, I was making 55k a year after two promotions and nearly 5% "merit" raises every year from my bosses. Today, I can't even get a call back from Aldi about a part time cashier position.

Have you considered that maybe that's a YOU thing? Not to be an ass about it, but I don't have a degree, and I've never been out of a job unless I wanted to be. Full-time, with bennies for the last 30 years. And insurance, including dental and eye coverage. And this isn't white-collar work - this is warehouse work, packing/shipping/receiving, running printing presses. Everything I made, I fought for and earned. Yeah, I used to make more, but I sure as hell wasn't happier.

Quote:

There are two reasons for this, which from the business standpoint of the ones running the shows at the companies I completely understand.

1) On average, a female and/or minority still makes less money than a white male in the same job.

2) There are legal and standard tax credits today given to corporations who hire women and minorities over whites and males, and especially in the lower tier jobs, the tax benifits COMPLETELY outweigh the negative aftermaths of hiring people who are sub par for the job based solely off of demographics.

I rarely hear any bitching from minorities about this, but I constantly hear bitching from Women about it.

Bottom line, I'll grant you that you still get paid less when you work the same job your husband would work....

At the same time, if you were to both be unfortunately laid off from your job on the same day, you'd find a job making enough money to satisfy your efforts 3 times as fast as he would, and that's only assuming you're in your 20's-40's.... the gap becomes exponential when a man reaches 50 and is laid off.

I have a wife who'd like to personally tell you you're full of shit on this one. She does THE EXACT SAME JOB AS ME - literally - she took my place at one of the places I used to work! - and she was not only paid less (of course), but when that place closed down, she was unable to find work for more than a year, while I went out and got TWO other jobs in that time.

Quote:

All I need is 9 bucks an hour full time, and hopefully some catastrophic health insurance, and I'm good to go.

I just can't find it.....

Every application I fill out asks questions about whether I'm a male or female, what my age is, if I'm Caucasian or Mexican or Black.....

Sure, they tell me it's only for record keeping purposes, and that they're only doing it because Federal laws require them to, but if I said "prefer not to answer" to any of those questions my application gets thrown in the trash bin even faster than it already is.

I took the high road here, and didn't even go into child custody and child support. Don't even get me started on that.

Again, maybe it's a you thing.

Go in for a job you KNOW you can do. Challenge them to let you do it. Do it on spec, probation, whatever - just get your foot in the door and show 'em what you can do. If you're worth hiring, they'll figure it out by watching what you can do on a trial run.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, May 18, 2012 3:55 PM

Maybe it's just a demographic thing Kwick....

I'm no James Bond, but I'm relatively young and I'm a good looking guy. I'm a college dropout, yes, but I learn anything needed nearly immediately on any job and besides a takeover and a boss that went to jail, the only time I've ever left a job in my past was for something making more money. I make eye contact, I give a firm handshake. I speak and write English rather fluently.

In the mean time, I ONLY require 9 bucks an hour full time, and at the very least, health benefits would be a plus. I've plugged myself in so well behind the scenes where I could still bank money at that rate and keep my house I've worked so hard to rehab and upgrade.

Yes.... I'm smarter than you're average bear.....

If you have any truly constructive criticism to my attempts at finding a job, I'm all ears man. Obviously nobody at any jobs I should qualify for are giving me any, or I'd have already fixed that problem.

Go ahead Kwick,

I dare you....

I Triple Dog Dare you to figure out why I can't find a job where I'm at.

Win or lose for you, it's a Win/Win for me.

Maybe you could give me some advice????? Maybe you're an old dog who is relatively plugged in even if he loses a job now???? All I can do is speak from my standpoint.

I own my house free and clear and I have a 795 Trans-Union credit score (Keep in mind that I haven't worked a REAL job for over 2 years when you consider these facts). I have no STDS, no arrests, no DUIs and no illigetimate children. Furthermore, I'm not married, and I don't have kids, so at this immediate juncture, I'm free to work 24/7 at any job, and I've stated so.

I ain't too proud to beg for a little advice from somebody successful though.....

What's your secret Kwicko? I'm sure only half of those things you could claim at 32 and you still have a job. I'm fairly certain you still pay a mortgage on your house as well.

Thanks for the constructive criticism....

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:18 PM

Quote Bytemite, "If I'm LUCKY, then no, there won't be. Save your wisdom for someone
who matters and has a future.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So don't be so ready to pidgeon-hole others, including the women.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea what this means, and I suspect I don't want to know. However, what I do
pick up on is that you're accusing me of hypocrisy. If your aim was to make me very angry,
congratulations. Wildly successful endeavor.

OK. You pissed me off.

Apparently, I pissed you off.
Getting mad isn't necessarily bad. And you DO matter.
So . . . Do you wanna fight, discuss the topic, or what?

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Maybe it's just a demographic thing Kwick....

I'm no James Bond, but I'm relatively young and I'm a good looking guy. I'm a college dropout, yes, but I learn anything needed nearly immediately on any job and besides a takeover and a boss that went to jail, the only time I've ever left a job in my past was for something making more money. I make eye contact, I give a firm handshake. I speak and write English rather fluently.

In the mean time, I ONLY require 9 bucks an hour full time, and at the very least, health benefits would be a plus. I've plugged myself in so well behind the scenes where I could still bank money at that rate and keep my house I've worked so hard to rehab and upgrade.

Yes.... I'm smarter than you're average bear.....

If you have any truly constructive criticism to my attempts at finding a job, I'm all ears man. Obviously nobody at any jobs I should qualify for are giving me any, or I'd have already fixed that problem.

Go ahead Kwick,

I dare you....

I Triple Dog Dare you to figure out why I can't find a job where I'm at.

Win or lose for you, it's a Win/Win for me.

Maybe you could give me some advice????? Maybe you're an old dog who is relatively plugged in even if he loses a job now???? All I can do is speak from my standpoint.

I own my house free and clear and I have a 795 Trans-Union credit score (Keep in mind that I haven't worked a REAL job for over 2 years when you consider these facts). I have no STDS, no arrests, no DUIs and no illigetimate children. Furthermore, I'm not married, and I don't have kids, so at this immediate juncture, I'm free to work 24/7 at any job, and I've stated so.

I ain't too proud to beg for a little advice from somebody successful though.....

What's your secret Kwicko? I'm sure only half of those things you could claim at 32 and you still have a job. I'm fairly certain you still pay a mortgage on your house as well.

Thanks for the constructive criticism....

You're still a smoker?

And a drinker?

You don't think it shows. It does. I can smell someone smoking a hundred feet away. I can smell someone who's BEEN smoking hours after their last cigarette. Employers notice these things, because it affects their insurance rates and their bottom line, and YOUR productivity.

If you're drinking ten beers a night, you smell like stale beer. It's in your sweat; you can't wash it off, only sweat it out. You smell that way all the time, but you probably don't notice it.

Those things you say I couldn't claim half of when I was 32? Well, I'm married, and I've been arrested. I do not pay a mortgage, have no kids legitimate or not, and I have never had an STD.

Like I said, maybe it's a you thing. Have you ever considered that maybe you come across too cocky in interviews? How many times during a job interview do you tell the interviewer about your house which you own free and clear? You tell me around three times a day, and we've never met.

How many times do you tell them that you have no bills, no wife, nothing to tie you down, and no reason to come to work? You DO realize that's what you're telling them, don't you? Employers WANT someone who needs a job, who is DESPERATE for a job. Someone who hasn't had a job in two years and isn't desperate is someone I wouldn't hire on a dare. Why? Because he's going to pull a no-show on me at a crucial time, and put my ass in a wringer. I can do that all by myself, and then have nobody but myself to blame.

So what can you DO? What is your field? What are you good at, and how good at it are you? If you want to be cocky, put it into action. I once got a job in a print shop even though the owner swore he wasn't hiring. I knew the equipment he was using, and I challenged him; I told him I'd outprint his best printers if he'd give me a chance, and I'd do it for free for a day, just to show him what I had to offer. He took me up on it, and hired me full-time by lunchtime. I was there for five years, and to this day I have a job any time I need one if I call him up.

Don't burn bridges at work; build them. My old field - print shops - was a fairly small community, and shops and printers tended to know each other. I kept on good terms with as many of them as I could, so if anything went toes-up, I'd land on my feet. We'd share contacts and resources, I'd go to other shops on my off days and help them trouble-shoot equipment, I'd help them out if they were backed up, and they'd do the same for me.

When I got out of the printing business because my back wouldn't stand up to the repetitive motion anymore, I was adrift and lost - the only industry I knew in Austin was now more or less off-limits to me. I had offers for "off the press" work in print shops, but they always ended up with me back on the press when someone didn't show, and my back was getting worse and worse. I took a temp job in a warehouse, seasonal, and I worked my ass off. I was willing to work faster, longer, and harder than anyone else there, and I told the other temps why: Think of it as a walk-on at an NFL tryout. If 100 people show up and try out, 1 is going to walk out with a job offer. I was the last one still working when the season ended, and then they made me a full-time permanent offer. By then, though, I'd moved on to a new and better gig. That was 5 years ago, and I'm still there today.

Oh, and don't be afraid to lie. It's a Catch-22: you can't get a job without an address, and you can't get an address without a job. That's what I found out when I moved to Austin with no visible means of support. I came here without a job or any leads. I had exactly one friend here. He agreed to let me use him as a "job" reference, which got me into an apartment, and then quickly got me a job, because I had a job at the time.

Anyone in your family or friends willing to lie for you, and say you work for them? All you have to do is get your foot in the door.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:36 PM

I didn't get you mad just now, you were angry when you posted, otherwise you wouldn't have suggested the things you did. I might have escalated this, which i don't really want to do...

Oonj, I think you and I don't really have much in common. I don't want to lash out at you because of it, but I think sometimes I do. So there's kind of this personality conflict, we can't really see eye to eye, it's often the same problem I have with HKCavalier.

I think if we tried to talk about it more, I'd start to sound really pathetic AND you'd only just get more angry, and this thread really isn't about suicide anyway. So, I'd say our best bet is to go about our business.

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Friday, May 18, 2012 4:59 PM

Haha.... Print shops.... my best job was managing one that specialized in political campaings when I was 19 for a former house rep of the corrupt state. I gave up college for that job because it paid so well and when George Ryan went down I was left for 5 years on shit's creek without a paddle with no degree... It's not as if I could tell future employers that they could call "Cell Block D" at Crook County for a legit reference....

Since then, I've never needed one.....

I bought this house with cash and made it worth 30k more with only 4k of real dollars and my own work.

I still can't find a job.....

First Real Estate tax is due in 8 days.... no problem paying that....

If I wasn't to work a day in my life for real cash until mid November, I'd be putting everything on my credit card....

I WANT TO WORK!!!!!!

Nobody in this econonmy will even have me for an interview unless it's a job that doesn't require drug testing. The only exception was the security job part time.... Even though the number of females and minorities for the job dwarfed me 10-fold, I was just happy to be working....

So....

you're saying that I should pretend like I'm any other loser out there that can't live without the paycheck and they'd hire me??????

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
So....

you're saying that I should pretend like I'm any other loser out there that can't live without the paycheck and they'd hire me??????

Sad to say, likely so - LET them think they got you by the balls, that they got their hooks in deep, and you can damn near walk all over em, see, you're thinking about how-to-go-about-it all wrong.

On a quasi-related note, some months ago the the owner of the realty company actually looked over the original application-on-file from way back when... mind you, he hired me cause of proven ability and didn't pay no mind to it, one of those hired-right-now and fill in the app when you can since I am kind of a subcontractor in this anyhows...
And he about blew his cappucino out his nostrils.

Sex: Occasionally.
Race: Only for pinks.
Age: Not if I can help it.

The whole app is like that, I was WONDERING when they'd notice - the irony here is cause of the whole "pet ninja" thing he kinda half-suspects I must have sneakily swapped in the joke application after the fact, and imma let him believe it though it's just not true.
He sure as HELL ain't gonna admit he never even read it in the first place, is he ?

-Frem

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Friday, May 18, 2012 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Haha.... Print shops.... my best job was managing one that specialized in political campaings when I was 19 for a former house rep of the corrupt state. I gave up college for that job because it paid so well and when George Ryan went down I was left for 5 years on shit's creek without a paddle with no degree... It's not as if I could tell future employers that they could call "Cell Block D" at Crook County for a legit reference....

Since then, I've never needed one.....

I bought this house with cash and made it worth 30k more with only 4k of real dollars and my own work.

You keep saying that. You've told me at least six times in the last week that you own a house.

Quote:

I still can't find a job.....

First Real Estate tax is due in 8 days.... no problem paying that....

Then you have no worries at all, do you?

Quote:

If I wasn't to work a day in my life for real cash until mid November, I'd be putting everything on my credit card....

I WANT TO WORK!!!!!!

Nobody in this econonmy will even have me for an interview unless it's a job that doesn't require drug testing. The only exception was the security job part time.... Even though the number of females and minorities for the job dwarfed me 10-fold, I was just happy to be working....

So do something part-time. Do SOMETHING! Get your foot in somewhere, THEN work your way in and up.

Make yourself fire-proof - make sure you know more than just your particular area.

Quote:

So....

you're saying that I should pretend like I'm any other loser out there that can't live without the paycheck and they'd hire me??????

Well, YEAH.

Seriously, man - do you ever think about how you come across to other people? Would YOU hire someone who talks down to you? You have to come across as confident, but not cocky, self-assured, but not TOO self-assured, and knowledgable but still respectful and not arrogant.

Before you can convince anyone that they want to hire you, you need to make them LIKE you.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, May 18, 2012 6:16 PM

Quote Kwicko: "Well, YEAH .

Seriously, man - do you ever think about how you come across to other people? Would YOU
hire someone who talks down to you? You have to come across as confident, but not cocky,
self-assured, but not TOO self-assured, and knowledgable but still respectful and not arrogant.

Before you can convince anyone that they want to hire you, you need to make them LIKE you."

First off, he's gonna dump egomaniacally about his house.
May think others avoid him out of jealousy at his grandeur & accomplishments.
Unrealistic, totally self-centered. The type ends up lonely and bewildered.
No ego-control. Can't see the need for it.

ETA: See Narcissism.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:09 AM

For Byte (who matters and has a future?)

Quote Bytemite, "if they want to be a PRETTY corpse," &
"influence of the media on women about how they should ALWAYS look attractive"

Less than a year ago, a young man blew his brains out barely 40 yards from my door.
He came up here from his apartment some 50 miles away, and offed himself in his
mother's backyard.

I've read that hanging is the most common method [Wiki:] "accounting for 53% of the
male suicides and 39% of the female suicides."

It surprises me that women would choose hanging 39% of the time, since it seems far
too violent and frightening to me. I figure a woman in a suicidal crisis would shy away
from that, taking an easier, softer way to end her pain.

Do suicidal women spend time in front of a mirror, thinking about how they'll look dead?
Do they put on their make-up perfectly and wear their best clothes?

I never thought about that. I do know that some suicidal people think about the effect
their act would have on friends and family; they often want revenge. But looking good?
Sounds ludicrous to me.

The young man who killed himself here looked pretty damn gross, I'm told. If he'd been
a woman, should she have shot herself in the heart . . . and out on the lawn instead of
in the alley?

When you said "PRETTY corpse," I felt you were being dismissive of women who aren't
willing to blow their brains out, as if their claim to pain is phoney. That's when you pissed
me off!

Byte, I find you a thin-skinned, insensitive brat.
But I can understand your confusion about the male-female expectations.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:31 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Do suicidal women spend time in front of a mirror, thinking about how they'll look dead?
Do they put on their make-up perfectly and wear their best clothes?

Hello,

This would not surprise me in the least. So if this is kool-aid, I've drunk enough of it to believe that it is true.

Quote:
When you said "PRETTY corpse," I felt you were being dismissive of women who aren't
willing to blow their brains out, as if their claim to pain is phoney. That's when you pissed
me off!

I didn't get this vibe myself. Merely that concerns outside of the pain, perhaps even unconscious concerns, drive women to seek other means of self-destruction more often than men.

Quote:
Byte, I find you a thin-skinned, insensitive brat.

I have always found her to be thin-skinned but very sensitive. I've never thought of her as a brat. More like a raw nerve.

Quote:
He came up here from his apartment some 50 miles away, and offed himself in his
mother's backyard.

This reminds me of something I read about once, where in Asian cultures a maligned individual might commit suicide on the doorstep of someone who wronged them. I wonder if the reasoning was similar for this fellow?

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 9:57 AM

Perhaps next time don't knock me for saying the EXACT SAME THING YOU'RE SAYING. You thought women would have chosen a softer way to go out? Women only commit suicide by hanging 39% of the time compared to the guy's statistic of more than half the time? I'm having trouble figuring out 1) where our views differ, and 2) why you even want to keep this going.

Quote:
When you said "PRETTY corpse," I felt you were being dismissive of women who aren't
willing to blow their brains out, as if their claim to pain is phoney. That's when you pissed
me off!

Not dismissive. Ironic. There's a difference. It is a curious thing that some people who are self-destructive would care how they looked when dead, yet that appears to play at least some role, if only subconsciously. And it also seems that if that does play a role, then that might play into how successful they are - if they still care on some level how they look, then their actions might not be as self-destructive than those who don't care about that anymore.

I also note that I commented how I didn't understand why MRA considered successful suicide among men more important than attempted suicide among women, or not as much of a problem. Obviously, I think both are rather serious problems. Which I consider a separate issue from my own death, in that I deserve that.

Anyway, I'm done trying to defend myself to you. Think whatever you want.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 11:04 AM

Jack, good luck on finding a job and paying the bills. I think that people have offered some pretty good advice - they don't want you to be reliable from self-assurance, they want you to be reliable because you're desperate and they think you're less likely to walk away if they're being unreasonable. I wouldn't know for sure, I've only ever had this one job. Tell us how it goes.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 1:42 PM

Quote Anthony: "I've never thought of her as a brat. More like a raw nerve."

You know her better. I stand corrected.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

You keep saying that. You've told me at least six times in the last week that you own a house.

Yeah, my bad... I don't do that shit in real life. I'm sure a lot of you here don't talk to people you interact with daily the same way you did in here. If not, there would be just as many reasons, albiet different ones, that you didn't have any friends in real life either. Except for my closest friends and family members that I feel comfortable talking with about such things, politics and religion don't come up.

Quote:
Then you have no worries at all, do you?
Quote:

Immediately, no....

Quote:
So do something part-time. Do SOMETHING! Get your foot in somewhere, THEN work your way in and up.

Make yourself fire-proof - make sure you know more than just your particular area.
Quote:

I'm trying to find at least a part time job that won't bore me to death. I can't just "sit there" in my car for 10-12 hours a day waving people past a gate. At the very least, I have to be unloading trucks and stocking shelves and constantly be doing SOMETHING.

Any of these types of jobs would only be temporary though. From the horses' mouth, there are 140 employees at the local K-Mart. Only 20 of them are full time with real benefits, and one only opens up if somebody retires or dies. I don't have that long to wait to make it up the food chain at a retail store....

Quote:
Well, YEAH.

Seriously, man - do you ever think about how you come across to other people? Would YOU hire someone who talks down to you? You have to come across as confident, but not cocky, self-assured, but not TOO self-assured, and knowledgable but still respectful and not arrogant.

Before you can convince anyone that they want to hire you, you need to make them LIKE you.

I can't convince you otherwise with anything I say here, but REALLY I'm not like this in real life. Sure, I'm a lone-wolf type, but when I do meet up with friends and family we have a good time. I've never turned somebody down when they needed help working on their own house or floating a loan to people in my circle of trust, and I've never been burnt when it comes to money because I know they're good for it.

I don't put on my applications that I own my house with cash money. There's two reasons for that. First, it's not good to let ANYONE know that you're in that great a position, otherwise they want something from you. Second, more than half of the people who put in applications lie about stuff. At the very worst, they think I'm lying my ass off about the entire situation and that I've just been jacking off in my parents basement since August and this is my cover. At the very best, they think that I was slinging drugs to high schoolers to have that much cash lying around.

What I DO say is that I've been working for myself since August and I go in depth of the skills I've acquired and the jobs I've accomplished. The fact that I was able to buy a house in this market would automatically lead anyone with half a brain to assume I must have had cash without a job to pay for the house, but I never put on an application that I have no mortgage.

That's really not the issue here though.... The issue is, I CAN'T GET AN INTERVIEW.

I'm MUCH better face to face with people than on paper. I turned down a part time job last week 3 blocks from my house, and the manager there said the entire time that she didn't feel that it was what I needed. She did, however, set up an interview for next week for me for survaliance within the company over the border where the minimum wage is higher and the job pays more anyhow. It's not full time, and there are limited benefits, but there is a MUCH greater potential to get a full time position in Loss Prevention.

We'll see how it goes.

As for adding to my skillsets, without trying to sound cocky , I can't think of a more varied resume. I've worked retail, inventory checking, management, graphic arts, accounting, building garages, home improvement, furniture repair, package handler, customer service, systems change management and IBM mainframe maintenance.

Without a degree, I don't think it's possible for me to even find a job that I don't at least know enough about to be able to figure it out with limited oversight once I was in. College could never have taught me 80% of these jobs. Every place I've ever worked for is unique, and most of the stuff I've ever learned was not in paid-for school, but in the school of hard knocks.

Really Kwick... thanks for the suggestions. At least there's some constructive critisism I need. I know we both think each other largely to be dicks because of our interactions here, but I think we'd probably get along great in real life if we never brought up politics.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Sad to say, likely so - LET them think they got you by the balls, that they got their hooks in deep, and you can damn near walk all over em, see, you're thinking about how-to-go-about-it all wrong.

On a quasi-related note, some months ago the the owner of the realty company actually looked over the original application-on-file from way back when... mind you, he hired me cause of proven ability and didn't pay no mind to it, one of those hired-right-now and fill in the app when you can since I am kind of a subcontractor in this anyhows...
And he about blew his cappucino out his nostrils.

Sex: Occasionally.
Race: Only for pinks.
Age: Not if I can help it.

The whole app is like that, I was WONDERING when they'd notice - the irony here is cause of the whole "pet ninja" thing he kinda half-suspects I must have sneakily swapped in the joke application after the fact, and imma let him believe it though it's just not true.
He sure as HELL ain't gonna admit he never even read it in the first place, is he ?

Haha!

BEST
APPLICATION
EVER!!!!!!

At this point, I'm pretty sure he would never admit to anybody that he never read it. Not only do you do great work, but you're a scary dude to anyone who might want to pick on somebody. Most Management positions are chosen because they know how to use the stick. In the end though, they usually just go for the wounded gazelle and rely on the aftermath to garner compliance within the ranks.

We know that you're not, "that dude" though.....

Give 'em hell Frem!

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:40 PM

*Oonjerah discovers to her distress that her written communication skills are
rather poor. Muddy rather than clear. She had strong feelings when she wrote,
and she foolishly thought others would know her feelings eventho she did not
mention them. She also asked rhetorical questions and failed to answer them.
Oonjerah was unintentionally ambiguous. She feels foolish.*

Byte, I apologize for my failure to speak clearly. I was Not agreeing with you.

Oonjerah writes a scene in a play; the characters are Bob, Tim and Oonj.

[Bob and Tim are sitting at the round card table that stradles their properties.
Oonj walks by on an errand; they invite her to come sit a while. She does. She
doesn't like Bob; but Tim is a good friend to her.]

Bob: Say, Oonj! Are yah keepin' outa trouble? Ha-ha-haw!
Oonj: No. Are you making fun of me?
Bob: No!
[Inconsequential babble. Then -]
Bob: We had a suicide come into the morgue last night!
Tim: Really? Young or old?
Bob: She was 40. Got herself smashed and took a shitload of sleeping pills!
Tim [sadly]: That's a shame!
Bob: She sure was a looker! . . . She didn't use a gun. -- I guess she just
wanted to leave a pretty corpse. Ha-ha-haw!
[Within 3 seconds, there is steam coming from Oonj's ears; she's frothing at the
mouth. Adrenalin pumps thru her as she clenches her fists; she imagines that she
can deck Bob and kick the shit out of him.]
Oonj [in a low, angry voice]: Bob, I've heard you say some really mean things before,
but that just now is the worst! [She decides against violence, because she has no
skill at it. She stands up to leave.] I hope I never see you again!
[Oonj walks away, furious.]
Bob in the background: What'd I say!
Tim: You said you suck!

Why does that remark enrage Oonj?
Because it says that the dead woman was shallow and frivolous. It invalidates her
pain and hopelessness. It makes fun of her.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Anthony: Apparently women actually attempt suicide more than men do, but also fail more often. Men tend to be more successful than women at suicide, so more of them die.

Men typically use guns, which are not only more effective murder weapons, they are more effective suicide weapons as well.

Live by the sword and so on ...

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:53 PM

Quote:

I'm MUCH better face to face with people than on paper. I turned down a part time job last week 3 blocks from my house, and the manager there said the entire time that she didn't feel that it was what I needed. She did, however, set up an interview for next week for me for survaliance within the company over the border where the minimum wage is higher and the job pays more anyhow. It's not full time, and there are limited benefits, but there is a MUCH greater potential to get a full time position in Loss Prevention.

Okay, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but this is the new normal. Virtually NOBODY is going to hire someone right off the street, give them a full-time position and benefits, without making them jump through hoops first. That's why temp jobs and agencies are booming - THEY are responsible for you, not the place you actually show up to do the work. If they don't like you at that place, they just tell the agency to send more bodies, etc.

It sucks, but when times are tough, it's an employer's market. You have to get in there first and show them what you can do, and make them realize that they NEED to keep you around. And you need to make sure that they know you're entertaining other offers, so you've got a little bit of hand, at least.

My boss knows she's lucky, and we've had it out a few times to remind her. Last time, all I had to say was, "Go back to your office and sit down and think about how many people you're going to have to hire to replace me, and then we'll talk."

Got a nice bonus, raise, and vacation out of that conversation, and she also stepped right the hell out of my business and let me run my warehouse my way, which was what the fight was about in the first place.

If you have one or two solid offers in your pocket, and you're sick enough of the treatment to not mind leaving, then freedom of speech can be a cathartic experience. When I *don't* have all of those things, I bite my tongue and bide my time.

Right now, any job is better than no job. I've washed dishes for a living, and could do it again if that's all there was.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Jack, good luck on finding a job and paying the bills. I think that people have offered some pretty good advice - they don't want you to be reliable from self-assurance, they want you to be reliable because you're desperate and they think you're less likely to walk away if they're being unreasonable. I wouldn't know for sure, I've only ever had this one job. Tell us how it goes.

Thanks Byte,

I think you and the rest are right. Unless you're fighting for top-tier College Level jobs, then being your "best" is not a desired trait.

I guess Tracy Ullman was right....

I LOVE YOUTUBE!!!!!!

I haven't seen this since I was about 8 years old, but there it is.....

"I'm Leonard the Duck... Quack Quack!"

Give it a view Byte, even given it's age, it's really funny and a good glimpse into how somebody who can't find a decent job views things 20-25 years after it was recorded.

I've already contemplated lying on applications about going to college and then telling them while I was there that I didn't and I only did that to get my foot in the door. I figure, since I can't get an interview otherwise, I might at least try it.

I guess now I'll put "pretend you've got a 2 digit IQ and I'd be living in the gutter without the job" on my to-do list from here on out.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 4:54 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Could be, not sure. Would probably explain it, and also explain WHY women tend to be less successful - if they want to be a PRETTY corpse, they don't seem to grasp the concept of this whole self-loathing want to die thing.

Women tend to not to want to leave a mess, out of habitual consideration for others.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:35 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
She sure was a looker! . . . She didn't use a gun. -- I guess she just
wanted to leave a pretty corpse. Ha-ha-haw!

Quote:
Why does that remark enrage Oonj?
Because it says that the dead woman was shallow and frivolous. It invalidates her
pain and hopelessness. It makes fun of her.

Hello,

How can you feel someone isn't being made fun of when the guffaw is inserted? Never mind the description of someone as a 'looker' to reduce the observer to shallowness. (I would never imagine Byte using such a phrase, for instance.)

But just because this is the scene going on in your mind, that does not mean it is the scene going on in someone else's mind.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 6:58 PM

Quote Anthony: "But just because this is the scene going on in your mind, that
does not mean it is the scene going on in someone else's mind."

Very true.

The first time I saw Byte's remark (Pretty corpse), it pissed me off instantly.
I felt she was being dismissive; I often see that in her remarks. I don't always
know what she means or if she's in a mood that I can't interpret.

When I realized that I'd have to be grade-school literal in my remarks to get my
meaning across, I also exaggerated the scene a lot. Over the top, no stuttering.

Byte and I don't communicate all that well. Trust is in short supply.
Our Mercurys must be square.

. . . . .The worst and most frequent consequence of paranoia is that it's self-fulfilling.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:07 PM

You seem to still think I make fun of female suicides. I don't really have anything further to say to you.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:21 PM

Quote:
Women tend to not to want to leave a mess, out of habitual consideration for others.

Hmm, maybe. But now that I'm thinking about it, both of these theories suggest something unfortunate about men - not concerned about appearance, not considerate of others, and another one I can think of more macho/inclined to violence - and I don't know, perhaps that is unfair and stereotyped. In that case, the reverse about women being unfairly stereotyped would also be true.

I am starting to doubt the initial premise I was fighting about.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:22 PM

See, Tony? Dismissive.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:26 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Byte,

I am positing a highly intrusive series of questions.

How many times have you considered suicide in your life?

If greater than zero, what methods have you considered and why?

When I was younger, I once briefly contemplated suicide because of an unhappy experience. I never brought the idea into the full planning stages, although I knew I had access to firearms and that probably would have been my choice. The immediacy of it, like turning off a light switch, would have been tempting.

However, before I could take the idea into the planning stages, a new idea occurred to me.

"What if things get better?"

I tried to think back to times I'd been unhappy before. There were several. And then I thought of times I'd been happy. It turned out that unhappy times had eventually been followed by happy times. Sometimes these times weren't even separated by much space.

And so I opted not to proceed any further on the premise that things might improve, even in ways unforeseeable, and I might have valuable future experiences.

When I look back on it now, I'm both ashamed and horrified that I ever seriously considered ending my life. That it could even be an idea available for consideration is lamentable to me.

I often wonder about people whose pain and depression are so persistent and ongoing that they may never think to ask themselves, "What if things get better?" Because for them, the darkness is so consuming that apparently the idea isn't worth serious consideration.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:28 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

See, Tony? Dismissive.

Hello,

I am ill equipped to offer a substantive evaluation, given that I surrendered the idea of direct correspondence with some members of this community. I would be the pot referring to the kettle.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:31 PM

Quote:
She did, however, set up an interview for next week for me for survaliance within the company over the border where the minimum wage is higher and the job pays more anyhow. It's not full time, and there are limited benefits, but there is a MUCH greater potential to get a full time position in Loss Prevention.

We'll see how it goes.

Oh hey. That's a start. In the very least it might tide you over for the time it takes to pay your real estate tax... Which is something I don't think should EXIST because it exploits people who live off the land and forces people to work for someone else when they otherwise might not have to.

You could always sell your house, maybe in a better economy and move to the south east of alaska, doesn't get as cold there as in the mainland, and so long as you're doing repairs/upgrades or maintenance on your house you don't have to pay a property tax, it's a loophole they put in.

But, that's probably not a great idea, don't listen to me I don't know anything.

Still, it's good to hear something panned out for you.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:44 PM

Quote:
How many times have you considered suicide in your life?

If greater than zero, what methods have you considered and why?

I will PM them to you, because this thread has gotten very off-topic and I'm tired of looking pathetic and weak and histrionic.

Quote:
"What if things get better?"

Two people die every second. A woman is america is raped once every day. Children are beaten. Animals are slaughtered. Ultimately the fate of every person and living thing is to become food for something else. Memories are forgotten. There are disorders for constant pain, fear, sadness, and overexposure to all three, and none where a person constantly feels joy. Joy is fleeting, and negativity easily remembered. It is impossible to express the amount of pain and suffering that exists in this world, and I am immoveable in my certainty that there is something terribly wrong with it.

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Saturday, May 19, 2012 7:46 PM