REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is success due to hard work and determination -- or is there a lot of luck involved?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 06:47
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Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Something maybe our righties so quick to proclaim "self-made" is why the rich deserve special priviliges:
Quote:
In a commencement address he gave at his alma mater on Sunday, author Michael Lewis — best known for the nonfiction classics Moneyball and Liar’s Poker – told the assembled graduates something that many of them most likely had no interest in hearing: That success in this world isn’t entirely a matter of hard work and merit, but that the mysterious mystical force known as “luck” plays an enormous part. And that they were some of the luckiest souls on planet earth.

Lewis, as he told the crowd, graduated from Princeton in 1982 with an art history degree, seemingly primed for failure in the post-grad job marketplace. He’d only recently decided he wanted to become a writer, and had no idea how to make this a reality. Then, as he told the graduates on Sunday, he had an extraordinary stroke of luck:
Quote:
One night I was invited to a dinner, where I sat next to the wife of a big shot at a giant Wall Street investment bank, called Salomon Brothers. She more or less forced her husband to give me a job.
At Salomon Brothers, Lewis was in a perfect position to watch Wall Street “being reinvented” right under his nose. Within a year and a half he had more than enough material for a book – so he quit his fortuitously gotten job and wrote that book, Liar’s Poker, which became a bestseller.

“All of a sudden people were telling me I was born to be a writer,” Lewis continued.
Quote:
This was absurd. Even I could see there was another, truer narrative, with luck as its theme. What were the odds of being seated at that dinner next to that Salomon Brothers lady? Of landing inside the best Wall Street firm from which to write the story of an age?
Lewis’ theme is an old one in the literature of success in America. Horatio Alger, the author of countless 19th century “boys books” with titles like “Ragged Dick” and “Struggling Upward” relating inspiring tales of good-hearted street urchins climbing their way out of poverty to modest wealth and respectability, is largely remembered as someone who celebrated hard work and persistence above all.

But that’s not quite right. Alger’s heroes had both “pluck” and “luck.” Indeed, the subtitle of “Struggling Upward” was “Luke Larkin’s Luck.” His stories, like Lewis’s own, emphasized the importance of being in the right place at the right time – being given an opportunity to impress a wealthy mentor, and taking full advantage of that opportunity. (Tip: If you see a horse-drawn carriage running out of control and about to crush someone, leap forward and pluck that person from danger, especially if he or she looks rich.) Hard work alone and good moral character weren’t enough, but neither was pure luck – you needed a bit of both.

Even today, many want to believe that we live in something close to a pure meritocracy – that, aside from a few lucky outliers like the various members of the Kardashian clan, those who succeed in America have earned their success purely through hard work and determination. As Lewis pointed out last week:
Quote:
People really don’t like to hear success explained away as luck — especially successful people. As they age, and succeed, people feel their success was somehow inevitable. They don’t want to acknowledge the role played by accident in their lives.
Over on the social media site Reddit, one angry commenter calling himself drgk seemingly set out to prove Lewis right on this point.
Quote:
My hard work in school gave me the qualifications. My hard work networking got me the internship. My hard work networking after my internship got me the job. My classmates who didn’t have as much “luck” basically finished school, sent out resumes and then called it a day and moved home to mommy. … Luck doesn’t exist, any more than God or faeries.
Mr. drgk’s comments are a perfect illustration of what psychologists like to call the “illusion of control.” People like to feel they are in control of their lives, and that what they do matters more than luck or chance. Psychologists have shown, though a number of ingenious experiments, that in situations where both skill and luck play a role, people have a tendency to overestimate the importance of their skills. Even when they have no control whatsoever over the outcome, people often act as if they do; that’s why people like to pick their own lottery numbers.

But even those who are willing to accept the role of luck are sometimes unwilling to admit that luck isn’t exactly evenly distributed in American society. Sure, Lewis took full advantage of his good luck in being seated next to the wife of a Salomon Brothers bigwig at that dinner party nearly three decades ago. But he was also lucky to be invited to the party in the first place – the sort of thing that happens a lot more often to Princeton graduates than it does to most of the rest of us.

As Lewis told the graduates:
Quote:
[Y]ou are the lucky few. Lucky in your parents, lucky in your country, lucky that a place like Princeton exists that can take in lucky people, introduce them to other lucky people, and increase their chances of becoming even luckier.
Though Lewis didn’t put it so baldly, he was talking about the advantages of class in America, where fortune deals out its cards from a stacked deck. As I pointed out in a previous column, research by economist Tom Hertz demonstrates how rare it is for those born poor to go from “rags to riches,” with only 1.3% of those born into the poorest 10% managing to “struggle upward” into the top 10%, while nearly one third of those born into the top 10% are able to hold on to their class position.

Lewis could have mentioned this interesting factoid in his address. Perhaps he felt he was already pushing his luck with the assembled crowd. http://business.time.com/2012/06/06/is-success-due-to-hard-work-and-de
termination-or-is-there-a-lot-of-luck-involved/

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 7:49 AM

CHRISISALL


Thanks Niki- great article.

"in my experience there's no such thing as luck." -Obiwan Kinobe

Easy enough for a JEDI to say, a lot of the rest of us use those lucky moments to better our lot in life.

The article says it all.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 9:34 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Yeah, it's all about skill and ability-- just ask George W Bush or any of Sam Walton's grandkids. They'll tell you it's all a true meritocracy, no luck or advantage from parents.

Or as Letterman once put it: " George Bush is standing over there like a guy who just hit a triple, but actually, he was born on third base."

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Sunday, June 10, 2012 9:40 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


First fact....

It's not what you know, but who you know....

Second fact...

If you're not at the top of your respective food chain, you're only putting in overtime to line somebody else's pockets...

Coming from a 55k a year guy who is going to have to be happy making less than 12k this year...

If option A is....

A) Luck

And option B is....

B) Determination

I'll throw out Option C.... Who you know.....

Even though the job I started at 7 years ago was a "HS diploma or GED equilivant" job, I never would have got it without a temp agency raping me or my old man getting me in. I started there at 23k a year....

From there, I much more than doubled my yearly salary in just over 4 years before being laid off.

Now I've got a job stocking shelves and unloading trucks overnight for peanuts, and I feel lucky to have it.....

Unless you're a genius neurosurgeon, or engineer or serious computer programmer, there's NOTHING you can do that can't be outsourced to India or China for 1/3 of the cost or less....

The only reason I have a house paid for today is because my old employer and their Six Sigma team didn't figure that out until I already had 5 years of savings under my belt with them and that I'd saved over 1/2 of my unemployment for the next year and a half.

Hehe....

I wish I was making my unemployment pay now.....

I was getting 400 bucks or more a week pre-tax while I looked for a job than I will be earning pay come next week.....






To answer your question Nick... Hard Work and Determination mean nothing unless you're in a real Niche job. Luck is a factor, but in the end, for everyone else, it's ALL about who you know....

I'm 32, and my "grapevine" of built-in "who-you-knows" are gone....

Gonna have to put on my game face and expand my catalogue of those "who I know"......

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Monday, June 11, 2012 3:45 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
To answer your question Nick... Hard Work and Determination mean nothing unless you're in a real Niche job. Luck is a factor, but in the end, for everyone else, it's ALL about who you know....

I'm 32, and my "grapevine" of built-in "who-you-knows" are gone....

Gonna have to put on my game face and expand my catalogue of those "who I know"......


Hello,

Good Luck.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, June 11, 2012 5:01 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Define "Success."

What I hear from some people is they hate the wealthy but then it seems like what's under it all is they are just jealous of their money. I don't get it - that kind of wealth turns you into them. Maybe not the history and social status amongst that group, but it would change you as a person. So are "You" happy with who you are? Or do people who complain about the wealthy just want their money?

I find saying "it was luck" to be disingenuous too - "don't hate me, I was lucky." No question, being born into wealth and high society gets you wealthy faster and makes it easier, but nothing you can do about that. Besides, there are plenty of opportunities without it - determination/persistence/belief, yeah all of those cliches are more important. I also think if you believe it's luck then you are less apt to try, it's an excuse, "I'm just not lucky..."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Monday, June 11, 2012 5:48 AM

CAVETROLL


The first self-made man in recent history I can think of is Harlan Sanders. Of course he got started at a relatively late age, after years of sweating in the kitchen of his truck stop diner. It took investors who believed in his process and product to give him the capital investment to start his chicken chain.

(Plus that special ingredient that makes you crave it fortnightly!) (/SoIMarriedanAxMurderer)

Colonel Sanders had it, whatever IT is. I don't think it is just sweat and hard work, although that certainly plays a part. Thomas Edison described it is as 99% perspiration, 1% inspiration. But I think it's more of a combination of hard work, charisma, people skills, business acumen and inspiration. There's a long list of brilliant inventors who had their ideas swiped or were outfoxed on the business end. Because other people knew how to play the boardroom game better than they did. Sanders summed it up; If you want to become poor, feed the rich. If you want to become rich, feed the poor.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 6:03 AM

BYTEMITE


Colonel Sanders with his wee beady eyes! Oh, you're gonna want ta buy my chicken~!

Anyway, I'd have no idea. I'm not successful by any stretch of the imagination.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 11:21 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Interesting what percentages might be involved here...

If you think of it, what were the odds of YOU being born at all - that a single sperm managed enough morphoogy and motility to beat the other little wrigglers upstream to implant into a perfectly ripe and ready egg that survived, that went on to implant itself in the lining of the womb, and on through the fetal stages until you were delivered more or less in tact.

What are the odds of having made it to conception and through being nurtured in your mothers womb and birth, that you were born into a modern western affluent nation, into a world that was reasonably infection free, conflict free (at least where you lived).

And then there is what makes up YOU, the material you were made from, your genetic disposition and qualities, already determining roughly what sort of health and quality of life you might have and how long you might live.

And then there is the temperament you were born with and the level of risk taking that you are able to manage.

And then there is the way you were nurtured and raised and the family (or lack of) that helped form your brain in early infancy, and how you relate to others and the world around you.

And then there are the opportunities that exist around you, dependant upon the education you were able to receive, the socio economic status of your family, the economy.

And then you can think about the decisions you make in your life and wonder at how much of them are really already determined by the above factors.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 12:37 PM

BYTEMITE


Magons: I find your post too life affirming for me to be comfortable with. I am going to respond with fidgety awkwardness.

*fidget*

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Monday, June 11, 2012 1:29 PM

HKCAVALIER


Yeah, America has a weird obsession with exceptionalism. To the American mind, the exception doesn't prove the rule--the exception IS the rule. If one guy, or a handful of guys over a couple centuries can pull themselves up from poverty to be multi-million dollar CEO's, well then, ANYBODY can do it! That proves it! If you're poor, you've got nothing to blame but your own lack of ambition. There are absolutely no circumstances that cannot be overcome in the American imagination. "Where there's a will there's a way" is a nice slogan, but it's factually inevident.

And this "logic" only applies to positives. You can give hundreds and thousands of examples that suggest that there is a robust class system at work in this country and they will always remain "exceptional" cases that deviate from the beautiful, classless norm.

Unless, of course the bad luck happens to a member of a racial minority, then it's taken as proof that "those people" suck at life. Oh, and Muslims, o' course, if just one 100th of a percent of the population is involved in terrorism, well, by gum, they're all in on it!

Ah, the growing pains of a young republic!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, June 11, 2012 3:32 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


..or, the blind egocentrism of a failing empire...

As to the "you can get rich too!" slogan (spoken or dog-whistled), it's been extremely useful for the right, especially given they're usually talking to people who haven't a chance in hell of ever accomplishing it...but hey, if you say something often enough, y'know...

All one has to do is glance at a list of those who are considered "successful" to kinda grasp the fact that a lot of them are dumber than a toaster, came into life richer than a croissant, and got where they got purely on luck, ability to schmooze, illegal methods, crony capitalism or....daddy. And what's sadder still, is some of them become Presidents!


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Monday, June 11, 2012 3:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Wow. Cherry pick one example out of millions, and suddenly " the winners " in society are just the result of dumb luck ?

Lots of paths to success. No one's ever denied that. But which would you rather have... a hard working, goal oriented , honest individual?

Or some free loader who thinks effort is for suckers ?

A couple of points.

Work smarter, not harder.

There's room at the top for anyone. Just not everyone.





" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:06 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
There's room at the top for anyone. Just not everyone.
So, there *has* to be an underclass! Wow, I guess we ARE learning here after all! Kudos AU!! Limited wealth is a hard concept for many, but you get it!
If there are no poor, there are no rich.

Our little 'Rappy is finally growing up!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Chris, you missed that he also believes there are only TWO kinds of people: hard working, goal oriented, honest individuals and free loaders who thinks effort is for suckers. Wow; like you said, we learn something new every day...I never knew it was that simple before!


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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:30 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Chris, you missed that he also believes there are only TWO kinds of people: hard working, goal oriented, honest individuals and free loaders who thinks effort is for suckers.
Effort IS for suckers. But I put effort into everything I do, my job & even my useless models. My Wife got some unemployment after her company was bought & restructured, so I guess we were freeloading...
We have goals and are working towards them, but getting rich doing things that don't force you to be an asshole to others is problematic. In the end, we get by; we're still flying.
I conjure we're an anomaly- according to 'Rap, you are either one or 'tother.
Millions just here or there.
Black & white.
01 or 00.

Or maybe that's the opinion of a simplifying idiot...


Who can say.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:39 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:
Or maybe that's the opinion of a simplifying idiot
Nah, not possible, it's obvious he's smarter than anyone else. Isn't he?

Kinda like there's only one thing the Dems want: to raise taxes. Maybe we should try thinking like him:

There's no such thing as a hard-working, honest American who didn't manage to get rich.
There's no chance the Dems will EVER cut ANYTHING, they just want to raise taxes.
There's no way a corporation EVER did anything wrong, and regulation is just government overreach.
All Muslims are terrorists, Islam is a religion of war and Christians never did anything bad.
All Blacks are gangstas, even if they're killed not doing anything wrong. They would have eventually...
Obama never did ONE thing right his whole entire life, and anything anyone in the government did is HIS fault.

Gee, look how much simpler life becomes...


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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Chris, you missed that he also believes there are only TWO kinds of people: hard working, goal oriented, honest individuals and free loaders who thinks effort is for suckers. Wow; like you said, we learn something new every day...I never knew it was that simple before!



No, Niki, once again you get it WRONG! I also said there are many paths to success. Or did you miss that ?

Yeah, you missed it.

As you also missed on every one of those items on your idiotic list, save for.....

Dems DO just want to keep raising taxes and never EVER want to cut spending ( except for Defense ).




" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 4:49 PM

CHRISISALL


" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, June 11, 2012 5:10 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall


Oh, go frack yourself, Chirs

I got me some scratch off lottery tickets to tend to anyhow. I'm outta here!


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:49 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Chris, you missed that he also believes there are only TWO kinds of people: hard working, goal oriented, honest individuals and free loaders who thinks effort is for suckers.
Effort IS for suckers. But I put effort into everything I do, my job & even my useless models. My Wife got some unemployment after her company was bought & restructured, so I guess we were freeloading...
We have goals and are working towards them, but getting rich doing things that don't force you to be an asshole to others is problematic. In the end, we get by; we're still flying.
I conjure we're an anomaly- according to 'Rap, you are either one or 'tother.
Millions just here or there.
Black & white.
01 or 00.

Or maybe that's the opinion of a simplifying idiot...


Who can say.


Chris, Unemployment isn't freeloading. It is something you've earned based on your previous 6 quarters of employment. I guess you could be considered less worthy if you were satisfied with unemployment and decided it was easier to loaf at home rather than look for new work.

Plus, there's always criminals. Whether they wear a mask or carry a briefcase, those who work at taking from others would definitely fall into a 3rd, more malignant class than either of the other two. Where our society comes into conflict is with the ones who stay just this side of breaking the law. Doing ALL that the law allows in order to fill their pockets. Doesn't matter if it is a credit card company charging rates higher than Vinny the knife (not kidding), or a slimeball lawyer who takes a case on spec and charges so much that any award is gobbled up in legal fees. They're still predators, but the law allows their conduct.

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 8:20 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Doesn't matter if it is a credit card company charging rates higher than Vinny the knife (not kidding), or a slimeball lawyer who takes a case on spec and charges so much that any award is gobbled up in legal fees. They're still predators, but the law allows their conduct.
Dude, you are so right.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 12:04 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Everything you said, Cave...you have a brain fart or something? I don't recall you being so astute, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

Just FYI tho'--Chris is often just being sarcastic, and I think that's what that post was partly (about the unemployment). You certainly got it right tho', thank you. THOSE are the kinds of people I was talking about and whom I abhor, the people Raptor works hard to ignore...unless they're a Democrat.


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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 2:54 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Chris is often just being sarcastic
A day without sarcasm is like a day without sunshine.

I am trying to recapture my former silly self....

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:02 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
Is success due to hard work and determination -- or is there a lot of luck involved?

I believe hard work and determination are very valuable, but whether or not those values are instilled into you is all down to luck. I think besides being materially priveleged, one can be 'values priveleged' (essentially the luck of having good parents).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:57 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Chris, you missed that he also believes there are only TWO kinds of people: hard working, goal oriented, honest individuals and free loaders who thinks effort is for suckers.
Effort IS for suckers. But I put effort into everything I do, my job & even my useless models. My Wife got some unemployment after her company was bought & restructured, so I guess we were freeloading...
We have goals and are working towards them, but getting rich doing things that don't force you to be an asshole to others is problematic. In the end, we get by; we're still flying.
I conjure we're an anomaly- according to 'Rap, you are either one or 'tother.
Millions just here or there.
Black & white.
01 or 00.

Or maybe that's the opinion of a simplifying idiot...


Who can say.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives


Hey Chris,

You're half right there....

Effort truly IS for suckers, but only if that effort does nothing more than keep you "afloat" while the payouts are going somewhere else. 90% of my effort has been working on my own house since August. In the end, a ton of that effort would never pay off financially since the market, particularly where I live, wouldn't allow me to ever sell the house for a huge profit above material and tool costs. I don't plan on moving any time soon though, and since I'm going to be living here a long time I might as well make the place as perfect as I can in my own mind, right?

Even working for the soulless bastards I worked for for nearly 5 years that made this house possible in a down economy, it was worth it. But that's only because I made working for them worth working hard at all by negotiating great raises in 2 promotions and getting the highest cost of living increases year to year by being a confidant to my immediate supervisor. We were great friends and more than half of our shift played Texas Hold Em at my and my bro's apartment at least 2 times a month.... good comradere builder...

Actually, although I was very competent and could handle crises well, overall I put less effort into my highest paying job than I ever put into any job before. Social Engineering was 90% of my job, with clients and peers alike. Even though I wasn't their manager I really had zero problems delegating the nightly routines to the 2 other people in my area on your average mundane night, so I was free to do my own thing and browse the internet while being paid. The only oversight we had was how we handled the "bad situations" which would always pop up here and there. Since I was always respected in those conference calls and my supervisor heard nothing but positive comments about my timeliness, professionalism and my ability to quickly build a rapport even with the people who spoke broken english.... well.... the fact that 9 days out of 10 I did about 15 minutes of work in a 12 hour shift never even came up......

They paid me a salary not for "pieces per hour", but to be there when the shit hit the fan.



Oh, and don't feel bad about "freeloading" with unemployment. You'd be getting paid more now at your current job if the Government didn't require companies to pay into a sort of "insurance" for that kind of thing. As for extended benefits, take them while you can, the only reason bare necessities like Milk and Eggs go up in price is to pay for things like unemployment and welfare and other things that they can't pass the tax burden on to smokers year after year without getting everyone to quit overnight. If your wife's company wasn't Six-Sigma'd, she'd still be working there and they wouldn't have paid those "benefits". Just smile and take the money and realize that every time a company does that, they're required to pay higher "insurance" against unemployment in the future.

I'm the only 32 year old I know who has had over 2 1/2 years on top-tier-for-single-no-kids unemployment. The way I figure it, that's paid me back all of the SSI and Medicare payments I've ever paid for in my life, and then some. This makes me happy. I have no illusion those benefits will be available to me, at least not until I'm 80 years old and I'll be long dead from Lung Cancer or Liver Disease at that point. I have no ill will about that at all. I reckon that if I even worked just 5 more years in my life and payed into them, we'd still be about even. I don't expect somebody to take care of me when I'm old and grey and frail. 200 years ago before there was any type of insurance, people made it just fine without it. I'm doing everyone else a favor by smoking and drinking like I do because I'll die long before I ever collect any of the benefits we've been paying into.



You're not an anomaly for feeling that way Chris.

There is no "black and white". True.... There is Black, and there is White..... but there will always be an infinite number of shades of grey that even the newest version of Photoshop couldn't create.

Here's minimalist me.... I got nearly everything I've wanted, and I don't really have to work hard for more if I sealed myself off and lived in a bubble. If I ever got an opportunity to get a job similar to what I had before I'd take the money and run, but since I have most of what I'd want already, I'd be making "Buffet" moves with people I cared about. It's easy for people to claim Buffet as being this saint today because of his charitable moves close to his deathbed, but he didn't get rich by being a sucker up until that point. I'm sure most of his "charitable" nature today is largely due to his own Jimmeny Cricket whispering in his ears to make amends to all the people he's knowingly and unknowingly screwed over to make that kind of cash. The one thing we both do have in common though is that as rich as he is he owns a modest home and a used car.

My biggest regret about not being able to make decent money today is that I can't bitch about it to anybody in my own "real life". Even though many of them make a lot more money than I could hope to make today, they're in much worse shape than I am.

The silver lining.....

I was invited to a (YUMMY) steak and potato barbecue with my best friend and his wife last night. I spent a day with him rehabbing his basement a month back and now that their basement is refinished and ready for furniture they wanted to thank me for the work. He's a union guy, and she's a professional who just got her Masters. They're underwater on their house. Even though with the jobs they have they don't really have to worry about anything, I'm sure they know people they care about that do. They really are awesome people and I had "sleep-overs" with him since we became immediate friends in Kindergatrten. I couldn't be happier about who he chose for his wife and I know she's lucky every day that she found him. I think they'll be one of those mythical couples we speak about who will still be together for their 50th anniversary.

I think I made some points with them, and I hope they read some of the books about minimalist living so they can turn their own situation around and put themselves in the position I wish I was in now to help people I care about, but don't have the income to do so at the moment.

He told me, after his wife was asleep... "if I didn't have this union job, I'd have nothing. If my wife got a better job offer in another state, how could I go with her when I have nothing else?". I told him "welcome to the real world my man.... If I didn't have this house today, I'd just be a 32 year old loser without a degree. She loves her parents and sisters. She loves you. I don't think she'd even entertain moving away when she could make enough to get by with both of your salaries, and I think you could do a lot more than just get by if you put a cap on some things and take control of your future".

It's time the two of us knuckle-heads with no higher education make the most of it.




There is definitely some GREAT things to be said about hard work and determination, and of course luck and "who-you-know" plays a part in that.....

The answer to Niki's question though could never be a legitimate answer unless you ask yourself another question that she didn't ask.....

What is your own personal definition of success??????

In my opinion, Hard Work and Determination, given the right motive can be EXTREMELY beneficial to you and yours.

But if you take most of that money and spend it on bull-shit and keeping up with the joneses, you might as well be making 8 bucks an hour part time.

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Tuesday, June 12, 2012 6:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Thanks, Six. You rock.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 12:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Raptor works hard


Yes, Niki. I sure do.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:01 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Everything you said, Cave...you have a brain fart or something? I don't recall you being so astute, but maybe I wasn't paying enough attention.

Just FYI tho'--Chris is often just being sarcastic, and I think that's what that post was partly (about the unemployment). You certainly got it right tho', thank you. THOSE are the kinds of people I was talking about and whom I abhor, the people Raptor works hard to ignore...unless they're a Democrat.


Meh. I have brain farts all the time. Some good, some bad. Thing is, I'm fiscally and politically conservative and socially liberal. Which means I get attacked from both sides on different issues. The thing is, I believe that a good society comes from personal responsibility. That quality is vanishingly rare in our society.

Sarcasm is a lost art. I was the last practitioner of sarcasm in these parts. I quit because I got tired of people giving me that "dog watching television" look.

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:19 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Sarcasm is a lost art. I was the last practitioner of sarcasm in these parts. I quit because I got tired of people giving me that "dog watching television" look.


No other can claim the myriad ways of sarcasm.

I worship you.

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hey, Chris, good luck, it's good to see "you" back!

Well, Six finally came up with the question I was hoping for, and Chris got a glimmer: How do you define "success"? We know how some here do, but not all of us. IS success just money/position/etc., or is there more to it? Six appears to be saying that hard work and determination PROVIDING a good living is "success", but are they really what you define as such? Chris mentioned getting rich by being an asshole as not a success he admires, which is closer to how I feel.

I think most here can guess what my measure of success is, so I won't ramble about it, I'll wait until hopefully others might share their interpretation of "success".


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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:41 AM

BYTEMITE


>_> Someone else is the one who specifically said "define success." However, that may have been an implied factor in Jack's post.

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 3:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks, Six. You rock.


Hehe.... I think you're being genuine here, so....

You're welcome man....

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Well, Six finally came up with the question I was hoping for, and Chris got a glimmer: How do you define "success"? We know how some here do, but not all of us. IS success just money/position/etc., or is there more to it? Six appears to be saying that hard work and determination PROVIDING a good living is "success", but are they really what you define as such? Chris mentioned getting rich by being an asshole as not a success he admires, which is closer to how I feel.

I think most here can guess what my measure of success is, so I won't ramble about it, I'll wait until hopefully others might share their interpretation of "success"./b]


Happy to oblige Niki :)

To me, "success" is simple. It's just getting yourself into a position where you can have all that you need without being forced to do things that are against your personal code for "superiors", whatever your own personal code may be.

My parents hate that I'm "settling" for next to nothing beyond the house now, but they both worked management at big companies and put in thousands of unpaid overtime hours over the years and, my mom especially, was ALWAYS angry and not pleasant to be around.

What I hope she understands one day is that I learned a lot about how I want to live my life by NOT putting myself in those positions that she did every day. I don't want to be mad anymore. I don't want to stress anymore.

And right now... it's working out fine for me most days.

Success to me is not worrying about where food is going to come from. Success is having an abundant surplus of food and water and renewable energies that are off the grid. Success is having the ability to defend all that you've acquired from the "zombies" if things ever go to pot.

Success is also acquiring enough that you can help those you love do the same for themselves when they simply can't.



I have the house and the food and water surplus now. I have many strides to make before making a self-sustaining "farm" and I install solar panels and the like to decrease my reliance on the utility companies. I'm also a long way from being able to help those I love other than to give them advice about how they should spend their money (which is usually much more than I make these days).

I start my job on Monday. 8 bucks an hour, 24 hours a week.

That will pay 95% of my monthly bills if I don't do any home improvement and as long as my car doesn't need to be replaced.


That, truly, is success.....

When you can live in your own house off of 750 bucks a month after taxes and not put money on credit.....

Who could ask for anything more???

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Wednesday, June 13, 2012 5:25 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think both are necessary. The older I get though the more I think "luck" (call it what you will) plays a slightly bigger part, also who you know as Jack says.

I measure success by being able to do that things you want to, enjoy yourself and help others in life in various ways, not always financial, there are other ways to help others too that are important.

I assume you're my pal until you let me know otherwise.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 1:04 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'll wait until hopefully others might share their interpretation of "success".

Success is finishing a good Star Trek VI phaser sculpt!


Being creative in some way, not merely productive. Or fixing your home, like Six. Bringing up kids.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 2:28 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'll wait until hopefully others might share their interpretation of "success".

Success is finishing a good Star Trek VI phaser sculpt!


Being creative in some way, not merely productive. Or fixing your home, like Six. Bringing up kids.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives


what I'm typing out loud: Hey Chris, that's really nice work!

what I'm typing in my head: Hey, knuckledragger, get yerself to California and work for an FX shop, stat!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree with Chris about being creative. I pretty much HAVE to be, in one way or another, or I think I'd go mad. Always bumped across something to exercise that on; currently it's making signs for Occupy and the colorful planting of flowers (in hanging pots, I can't do much physical in the garden).

For me, success is also utilizing my skills, having enough to get by, finding peace, continuing to try and be the best person I can and learning from when I'm not, and giving back to the world in some way that will last beyond my own life (NOT in that order). Money and possessions are kind of the last things on my list.


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Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I agree with Chris about being creative. I pretty much HAVE to be, in one way or another, or I think I'd go mad.
Think how many just go to work & come home & that's it, never being creative at all. & voting Republican.

@ Pizmo, ehh, anyone can make a phaser from scratch, that ain't so hard.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Think how many just go to work & come home & that's it, never being creative at all. & voting Republican.



Think how many just get a check from the govt, sit at home, and that's it, never being creative - at all. And voting Democratic.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
@ Pizmo, ehh, anyone can make a phaser from scratch, that ain't so hard.


Hello,

What a terrible insult to those of us who can't do what you do.

--Anthony





Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 11:59 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Think how many just get a check from the govt, sit at home, and that's it, never being creative - at all. And voting Democratic.

Hey, if I could just get a check, and be creative all day, that would be cool. How do I get a check from the govt like you describe? Can anyone do it? Or do you have to be rich?


Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
What a terrible insult to those of us who can't do what you do.

Tony, I'll take that as a ridiculously high compliment, but take a few sculpture classes, seize the burning desire to possess a SF prop you do not have & cannot easily obtain, and you too can do it!!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 12:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hey, if I could just get a check, and be creative all day, that would be cool. How do I get a check from the govt like you describe? Can anyone do it? Or do you have to be rich?


Well, that's the rub, isn't it ? I said ( after you said ) NEVER being creative.

But lots of folks get checks from the govt for not working. And more folks than ever get foodstamps too.


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 1:17 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But lots of folks get checks from the govt for not working.
But HOW???? Can you clue me in?? That would be great! I want in!
I mean, do you KNOW how to do it? Or is it just a talkin' point?

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 1:39 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I agree with Chris about being creative. I pretty much HAVE to be, in one way or another, or I think I'd go mad. Always bumped across something to exercise that on; currently it's making signs for Occupy and the colorful planting of flowers (in hanging pots, I can't do much physical in the garden).


Hey Niki,

I'm right there with ya. I think part of the reason I was kind of "mad" when I first started posting here about 7 or so years ago was because of the years of having nothing and living off of others and not really having any means to be creative, and just overall worrying about everything all the time. That feeling is really crippling.



As for not being able to do too much physical work in the garden, you should consider constructing a raised "Square Foot Garden".

http://www.amazon.com/All-New-Square-Foot-Gardening/dp/1591862027

What a great book....

I talk a bit about it on my post in the General Discussions. The mixture of peat moss, vermiculite and compost is so spongy and light that you can go a few days without watering it even without 80 degree temperatures. The BEST part for you would be that you can build it as high off the ground as you'd like. My personal garden is walled off 19 1/2" above the ground to keep the rabbits and slugs out. I would have built it higher, but I only had 50 cinderblock pavers that I removed from the pool crater before filling it in, so without dumping more money into building it up, that's as high as I got this year. There's no reason you couldn't build it up 3 1/2 to 4 feet high though, so you'd just be able to walk over to it and tend the vegetables without ever bending at the knees. Even better, as the book explains, you're able to grow 80% more vegetables per square foot with this system than you would using a traditional single row gardening method.

If you ever want to have your own fresh grown tomatoes, get the book and have hubbs build you a 4x4 raised garden. If things go as well for you as I think they'll go for me this first year, you might have him building you 2 more by next summer.

Here's what mine looks like, but you can make it out of any material and any size and shape. Your imagination and creativity is the limit.



Quote:
For me, success is also utilizing my skills, having enough to get by, finding peace, continuing to try and be the best person I can and learning from when I'm not, and giving back to the world in some way that will last beyond my own life (NOT in that order). Money and possessions are kind of the last things on my list.


I'm on board with all of that Niki.

The only possessions I "lust" for are really just tools of many kinds. My house is my tool for not having to pay rent. My lawnmower keeps the lawn looking pretty. My badass snowblower is probably a little "too much", but it makes short work of 8" snow covering my 18 car driveway. (Seriously, there's no reason for the driveway to be that big... but it is.... :smokin)

My new shitty job is a tool to make ends meet while not getting into anybody's pocket until something better comes along. My next REAL job will be the final tool I truly desire, as I will not only be able to make ends with these minimal needs, but I'll be able to help those I love and seriously think about finding somebody to care about and to share them with.

That's my success goal....

Until I make it there, I have to say that this is the closest to ever finding my "calm" center in my life. Everybody has worries, and being a worrier by nature, I would be lying to say that I've achieved a worry-free life. But I wouldn't be lying to you or myself when I say that "life is good".

Life IS good......

It's so nice to hear me say those words out loud.

I never thought I'd see the day. :)




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Thursday, June 14, 2012 2:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
But lots of folks get checks from the govt for not working.
But HOW???? Can you clue me in?? That would be great! I want in!
I mean, do you KNOW how to do it? Or is it just a talkin' point?


Having never received govt assistance, I dunno. Sorry.

But does the check HAVE to come from the govt ? I bet Lucas sits around and gets checks all the time for being creative.

( lol... yeah, right )


" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:20 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Having never received govt assistance, I dunno. Sorry.

But... you know for a FACT lots (millions) of folk get free money... just not HOW...
Interesting.
ERROR, ERROR, YOUR FACTS ARE UNCOORDINATED. MUST STERILIZE...STERILIZE!!!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:23 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

But... you know for a FACT lots (millions) of folk get free money... just not HOW...


Hello,

I have some ideas about that. Apparently, there is some kind of Unemployment insurance that covers you in the event of unemployment. I believe only people who held a job are eligible. There are also various aid programs that can snatch you from the jaws of death due to poverty.

So I think you have to either have a job and then lose it, or you have to enjoy living in poverty in order to qualify.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
It's so nice to hear me say those words out loud.

Six, it's nice for US to hear it. It's always great when a Browncoat becomes happy in life. I wish your luck & determination on us all!
Kudos, man.

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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Thursday, June 14, 2012 3:29 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
So I think you have to either have a job and then lose it, or you have to enjoy living in poverty in order to qualify.

That sounds... crappy. Can't I just get everything paid for for doing nothing, as AU suggests? I'd really LIKE that! Then I could build stuff all day, & not have to sell any of it!!!

Chrisisall, wearing a frilly Mal thing on his head, and ready to shoot unarmed, full-body armoured Operatives

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