wildfires and politics by mal4prez

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

When it happened here last year our governor, Rick Perry, stopped his campaign for a day or so to pray the fires away.

I'm not making this up.

We only lost 99% of a pine forest and 1800 homes.

Heckuva job, Ricky!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:03 PM

Meanwhile, M4P, please know that my thoughts are with you and yours. I spent much of last summer with a "bugout bag" packed, and with extra rations of water and non-perishable foods and extra clothing and such loaded in my cars, ready to go.

It sucks, and I wish you the best of luck.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:15 PM

Thanks Kwicko. I remember how awful last summer was in Texas. I'm glad you got through it. I have a bad feeling this kind of thing is going to continue indefinitely. Rainfall patterns have changed.

It really adds a dimension when the fires are burning places you know. I've been visiting the Garden of the Gods all my life. And they just evacuated the Kissing Camels neighborhood, which means the fire has burned through the park.

I don't mourn the trees so much, because I vaguely remember some pine trees actually need fire to release seeds from the their cones. I have no doubt that nature will recover. But this is now a city that's going up in flames, and these conditions are going to continue for at least a few days.

And there are several other fires all over the West. I don't know how the firefighters cover all this, and I can't imagine what they're facing right now.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:20 PM

BYTEMITE

I've had nightmares like that Mal4Prez. Scary. Hope the fire gets under control... There may be thunderstorm systems coming through, which might mean some rain, but which might also mean more sparks and fires.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government. I'd rather say "Ta hell with Gov't, I'll pay MY insurance and look after me n' mine, you stay on yer side of the line!" than have them be all up in my business AND do nothing in the face of disasters...which, judging by the track record- they are pretty damn good at...

There have always been large burn-offs, and most likely always will be. Harsh truths of nature...I've pretty much built half this place with my own two hands, but if it were ta burn....So what??? I'm not gonna stand around and whine that no one helped me out, I'm gonna get my ass up and KEEP GOING...that's what. Do what's best for me and mine NO MATTER WHAT.
And they are our government....it's in THEIR best interests to help out anyway, and without!!! giving over your freedoms, because without US, there would be no THEM. If they don't plan ahead for things that happen over and over and they KNOW will happen again then GET RID OF THEM AND GOT SOMEONE WHO IS UP TO THE JOB.

I sympathize with the people who have had Mother Earth piss on 'em, 'cause she does that every now and then... and it sucks...but she's prolly got a right to that these days...

Now pick up... and keep walkin'(and try ta help out those that can't.)

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:57 PM

Wish, no matter what the federal government does, it will never be enough. Rappy claimed that Obama did absolutely nothing during the BP oil spill - nothing at all, not one single solitary thing. Others charged that the federal response to Katrina was a disaster. Ron Paul - and you, from the sound of things - thinks we need to get rid of programs like FEMA, just do away with them, let folks figure it out for themselves.

Here's something I wrote a while back about that position, and it applies to fires as well:

Quote:
Ron Paul said that in his view, the federal response to hurricanes should be what it was in 1900, or 1950. I found the 1900 citation quite telling, because that's the year Galveston,Texas was deluged with a monster storm. On an island with a population of 36,000 people, Galveston lost between 6000 and 8000 people in that storm. That's 16% to more than 20% of its population. Ron Paul is from South Texas; he knows the history of hurricanes in the Gulf, especially along the Texas Gulf coast.

Compare that to New Orleans in Katrina, in what is held up as THE modern-day example of what happens when government gets EVERYTHING 100% wrong: In a city with a population (2001 Census figures) of 484,000 people, between 1500 and 1800 people died. Those are horrible figures, but put them in perspective: that's 0.37%. Less than one-half of one percent.

Ron Paul holds up FEMA's performance during Katrina as the example of why a federal response to natural disasters is unnecessary. I'll hold up the response to the 1900 hurricane as the reason a national response HELPS far more than it hurts. His plan gets us death rates of 20%; the FEMA plan is more than forty times more effective.

Further, the Galveston storm destroyed more than 3500 buildings in a city of 36,000 people - wiped them from the face of the Earth. I'd offer to Mr. Paul the proposition that government-mandated stricter building codes have led to better buildings more able to withstand such storms and keep death rates to a minimum.

Ron Paul views a hurricane mortality rate of 20% as acceptable, desirable even, and what we should strive for in his world of limited government. I find a mortality rate from such a storm of less than half of one percent to be too high, and an unacceptable outcome.

That's not the only area where we differ, but it's a key one.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I've had nightmares like that Mal4Prez. Scary. Hope the fire gets under control... There may be thunderstorm systems coming through, which might mean some rain, but which might also mean more sparks and fires.

At this point, I'm more worried about the winds. Thunderstorms only drop water on small areas, and that might actually cause flooding, or so they're saying.

This is just chaos. The news broadcast is back and forth about which areas are actually being evacuated. And little fires are flaring up here and there. Yikes.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:22 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Mal4

" ... my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go ..."

I live in a suburb very close to a national forest. In the last 6 years I’ve twice had major wildfires come (from different directions) within a mile of the house. Both times I've come through OK. It can happen. So I wish your parents the best of luck. Please let us know how things are going.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Wish

"heaven and earth are not humane"

And that's why people should be.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them. There are a thousands of people in CO (and other states) watching fires approach their houses, and we have the means to help them. We do not need to live like seven billion separate entities.

And if you really think "they" are doing nothing about this, you're insane. Watch the shots of houses burning in the hills right now: all around are the flashing lights of emergency vehicles. People are risking their lives to help strangers. You don't have to give up your freedoms to support the people taking these risks. You can support them by supporting government programs like firefighting, police, etc.

It is ALL FUCKING RIGHT for organizations to exist without PROFIT being their primary goal. This is what kills me about the political right - they're blinded by this fracked up idea that only organizations that exist for money are morally all right. Backasswards 100%. The point of govt is that it can support things that do nothing but help, which is better for everyone in the long run.

Or do you really think we should just let Colorado Springs burn? And just hope that morally upstanding libertarians take the high road and stop by their neighbor's house with a bucket? How in the hell will it help to have uptrained, un-prepared folks to "keep walkin'(and try ta help out those that can't.)"? You think you can face what those firefighters are dealing with right now?

Meantime, I can't tell where the fire is going. The evacuations are moving steadily east.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Mal4

" ... my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go ..."

I live in a suburb very close to a national forest. In the last 6 years I’ve twice had major wildfires come (from different directions) within a mile of the house. Both times I've come through OK. It can happen. So I wish your parents the best of luck. Please let us know how things are going.

Thanks Kiki. I can't really think that the fire will get to them. If it got that far, half the city would basically be gone.

But man, what a change today. I worry about more winds tomorrow.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 7:59 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Wishing your parents safety. This has to be really scary and unpleasant for you, its in your family's stompin' ground and that's scary.

Government: As annoying as they can sometimes be, the good they can do is not something I'll ever be able to overlook. Government's job should be to help the people and aiding in natural disasters is something that definitely qualifies. This, and social programs of course, is why I could never be a libertarian, sometimes neighbors helping each other just isn't enough. Let us know what's happening there.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 8:47 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Holy shit! I thought things were bad up where I am (near the High Park fire). While there has been a lot of property damage, the vast majority of the fire is burning trees. Waldo Canyon is threatening a lot more homes.

Keeping the people of Colorado Springs in my thoughts.

if the grass is greener on the other side, it's only because I'm not attending mine

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 8:59 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm glued to the online broadcast of the fire in Colorado Springs. It hasn't hit the wider web yet, but you can get the local news here:

http://www.krdo.com/news/WATCH-LIVE-KRDO-NewsChannel-13/-/417220/14776
454/-/12eydmxz/-/index.html

The western suburbs are burning, 32,000 are evacuated, my dad's office building has burned down, my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go.

Setting aside my own grief and worry, I'm shaking my head at the politics that are already started about this. They just had a news conference and some yahoo was already at it, trying to set this disaster up as the fault of the federal gov't "getting in the way" or something. (All the people actually fighting the fire flat-out set him straight about that.) Yet, this is also the feds' fault for not doing enough. Never mind the extremely dry conditions, the multiple days of 100+ degree heat, or the 60 mph winds that whipped up at exactly the wrong time this afternoon.

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

I know what you are going through.

Take care of yourself and stay safe.

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:12 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

I'm watching this live stream right now. Seems like reporters always ask evacuees the stupidest questions.

http://www.kktv.com/video/live

if the grass is greener on the other side, it's only because I'm not attending mine

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Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:18 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Seems like this whole damn state is burning

I heard today that the Springs fire is the number one fire priority in the nation because so many homes are at risk. So there's that one, the High Park fire (currently the most destructive in state history) that I'm seeing smoke from every day, and the brand-new fire in Boulder county that I could smell smoke from today, and I think there are something like five others throughout the Front Range. We've had two or three thunderstorms, and the lighting just sparks more fires, and I don't think there's been a day this week where the high temp was less that 100; record-setting heat has been typical. They've stopped a bunch of them, too! I can only imagine what it would be like if all the fires that have started were still burning. We'd probably have fifty of them.
Oh! And authorities are chasing down some crazed arsonist who is lighting even more fires! Up in Teller county, they think someone has lit at least a dozen wildfires. Just what we need.

In terms of politics... I have to say that if I were a campaign strategist for the president, I would tell him to just run footage of all these wildfires interspliced with Romney saying we don't need more firefighters. Considering the amount of devastation and the definite and undeniable need for firefighters here, I think it would make Romney pretty unpopular in Colorado. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are now thousands of firefighters in this state risking their lives, and I'm just... I'm totally on their side.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Wish

"heaven and earth are not humane"

And that's why people should be.

QFMFT.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by YINYANG:
Holy shit! I thought things were bad up where I am (near the High Park fire). While there has been a lot of property damage, the vast majority of the fire is burning trees. Waldo Canyon is threatening a lot more homes.

Keeping the people of Colorado Springs in my thoughts.

I've seen some news from people out there near Boulder, maybe closer to where you and PR are. Fires all around. This is just crazy. Such a complicated situation, because with efforts focused on the Springs I hope other fires aren't neglected. Never mind the new ones!

There's total rage against careless smokers going on. Some commenter was ready to lynch a guy last night because he didn't chase down someone else who threw a butt out their car window. Nuts!

Anyway, I'm hoping for good news in the morning updates, and wishing the best for all you living out west.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them.

Or do you really think we should just let Colorado Springs burn? How in the hell will it help to have uptrained, un-prepared folks

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:20 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I'm glued to the online broadcast of the fire in Colorado Springs. It hasn't hit the wider web yet, but you can get the local news here:

http://www.krdo.com/news/WATCH-LIVE-KRDO-NewsChannel-13/-/417220/14776
454/-/12eydmxz/-/index.html

The western suburbs are burning, 32,000 are evacuated, my dad's office building has burned down, my parents are in their home 6 miles away from the fire with their car packed, ready to go.

Setting aside my own grief and worry, I'm shaking my head at the politics that are already started about this. They just had a news conference and some yahoo was already at it, trying to set this disaster up as the fault of the federal gov't "getting in the way" or something. (All the people actually fighting the fire flat-out set him straight about that.) Yet, this is also the feds' fault for not doing enough. Never mind the extremely dry conditions, the multiple days of 100+ degree heat, or the 60 mph winds that whipped up at exactly the wrong time this afternoon.

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

I've sent my first e-mail to my homeowner's insurance company about my HUGE increase in payments in my 2nd year here. It's over a 10% increase.

Just like Government "spreading the wealth" everyone has to pay for it in the end....

I'm considering dumping my insurance altogether....

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:35 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

Indeed. Yet we are capable of doing something about them.

Exactly what I was going to say. Government can try to reduce the effects of future disasters, with better building regulations and training, but they are needed to mobilize the equipment, manpower and MONEY necessary to stop it while it's happening, and to repair the large scale mess after, not repairing one house, but rebuilding the entire city, or replanting the entire forest, cleaning up the entire Gulf.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

It's not about one house. If this fire was left on its own, much of this city would have gone last night, and it'd beset to really take off when the winds pick up later today. Really, left alone, this fire could demolish the city. And that would do a lot more harm than to those silly folks who had the temerity to build their homes near trees. [/snark]

For instance, my dad's business office, which thankfully did NOT burn. I found out this morning that hundreds of firefighters were right there and saved it. (Thankfully, what I'm seeing on the news is that the firefighters did an amazing job holding this thing back all through that neighborhood.) That's not just good for dad's job - this is a major communications hub, and losing it would have affected a lot of people.

Here's what I mean that we are not 7 billion separate independent entities. You and I greatly benefit from being in a SOCIETY. Could you build that computer you're typing on? Could you write the software that runs the internet and lay all the wires connecting the world and run the power plants that make the electrons in the wires wiggle? Of course not. No individual can do all that. Someone else did it for you. And me.

But they were able to do it for us because we provide services in return. I don't know what you do for a living, but I teach. Because of what teachers do, people don't have to stay home and school their kids all day. They can do to work and build the internet. And because someone else prepares fairly nutritious and easy to prepare frozen dinners for Trader Joe's, I can be well fed without having to grow a garden or butcher a chicken or even chop veggies. So I can focus on grading and preparing my classes. See?

There is interdependence in our system, and that's why we're not hunter-gatherers anymore. (Though, really, that also relied on team work.) On the downside, that means one part of our system getting damaged hurts all of us.

OK, 9-11. Realistically, a very very small fraction of us were personally affected. A few thousand lost loved ones, probably tens of thousands lost their work places and homes. If we were complete individual automatons, not affected by each other at all, that event would have had no effect on a huge country of 300 million people.

But it did have a huge effect. We are connected. We rely on each other. To deny it is to deny what so many people have done to support the way of life you currently enjoy, and to refuse to contribute back is selfish and short-sighted, imo.

ETA: I am quite impressed at how positive and supportive people in the Springs are being about this. Most of them. Besides that first guy in the news conference last night, folks are being so cool and helpful. Especially the firefighters. I think there's a whole novel of stories going on back there that we haven't seen.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

To clarify, Wishimay said this, not me. And in that post seemed to suggest that we all take care of our own and to hell with organized, planned preparation by a central govt. That later part of the post is what I disagree with.

Because yes, of course disasters happen. And sometimes they take a turn for the worse, like yesterday, and the "authorities" may not be able to stop it. This does mean we blame them and get rid of them and refuse to support them - financially and politically - in the future.

Because natural disasters can be MUCH less devastating with a govt to provide aid. To suggest otherwise is just screwy.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:15 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
being un-prepared...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen...
We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid

So everyone living in Colorado should train to fight fires?

You don't seem to comprehend that this is more than just a "mess" from a tornado destroying some buildings. There was a tornado in Weld county a few years ago (totally unexpected, btw, because the mountains usually block winds from being able to form strong funnel clouds; we get a few warnings, but very few actual tornadoes) and it was cleaned up without a whole lot of issue as well. A few people needed shelter from the Red Cross for a couple days, areas of Windsor were rebuilt, and life went on.
Fires are not really the same sort of animal. Imagine that instead of a funnel cloud touching down and demolishing a few blocks of buildings, you had a funnel cloud miles wide that just stayed on the ground. For days. Slowly advancing and devouring homes, businesses, farms, ranches, and natural preserves. If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

I support Firefighters, as I wouldn't allow one to risk THEIR life for my stupid house.
As for being un-prepared...If you live in Indiana, you SHOULD expect tornadoes, if you live in one of those areas in California you should expect mudslides...live near a forest in summer, prolly outta expect a fire could happen... We had some tornadoes in this area last year. WE didn't get federal aid because people got off their butts and cleaned it up themselves. That's the way it should be...

Life is unexpected. If you have an interest in your own, might wanna plan for the unexpected.

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:32 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
There will still be natural disasters WITH or WITHOUT government.

To clarify, Wishimay said this, not me. And in that post seemed to suggest that we all take care of our own and to hell with organized, planned preparation by a central govt. That later part of the post is what I disagree with.

Because yes, of course disasters happen. And sometimes they take a turn for the worse, like yesterday, and the "authorities" may not be able to stop it. This does mean we blame them and get rid of them and refuse to support them - financially and politically - in the future.

Because natural disasters can be MUCH less devastating with a govt to provide aid. To suggest otherwise is just screwy.

If I mis -attributed this, it was unintentional. Sorry.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 8:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
If I mis -attributed this, it was unintentional. Sorry.

No problem. Just wanted to make sure it's clear which side I'm arguing here. Not that there should be much doubt...

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mal4, my heart really goes out to you. I've been watching the news, and when they put up a map with all the wildfires circled, it just boggles my mind. It's like the whole state is going up in flames in so many areas. Gawd forbid any of them should join up (tho' it looks like some already HAVE!). And I KNOW Magons empathizes; they just went through their own horrors Down Under a little while ago.

In my opinion, those who have the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality are full of shit. Why are we a union, if we're not going to take care of one another? Tho' I'm sure they'd prefer that, too, from the sound of them. Some people just don't get it or are so blinded by their "no government" stance that they're unable to see.

I really empathize; you know how many fires we get every year here in CA. Admittedly most of them are down South, but we get our share now and again. And yes, mudslides inevitably follow, if not when rain comes through to help with the fires, then for sure the next Winter. After all people have been through in a big fire, my heart aches for them when the mudslides come later and often wipe out some who survived the fires.

As for letting "natural" disasters do their own thing, does anyone remember when they tried that in Yellowstone, and what resulted? There are as many UNnatural fires these days as those Nature creates--like the people tossing cigarette butts out windows, or the idjits setting campfires without knowing how to contain them...not to mention the crazies who set them ON PURPOSE. There's also the fact that many non-native species have been brought into the picture by humans; we're fighting sudden-oak death which is leaving lots of dead trees around, there's a beetle which has destroyed more, and those dead trees are just asking for trouble...not to mention all the damned eucalyptus that was brought here and put up by farmers as windbreaks. Those puppies EXPLODE in a fire, they don't just burn; we had excellent evidence of the danger they represent a few years back when they took out a hospital in the East Bay. We've built and live in places we never should have, and affected where we live in ways Nature never intended; we've brought creation of wildfires where they would never happen naturally. I DO weep for the trees, and animals, and everything/everyone that fires destroy. Nature has a balance and I have to accept that, but "balance" is long gone.

For people to think they'll take care of things in their own area, they're missing the fact that keeping a corps of trained firefighters and waiting for a fire costs a lot of money. You can't just send guys out to fight a fire, they'd do more harm than good, and many would die. Firefighting is hard and tricky work, and if you can't call in people from out of state to help, you're eventually royally screwed.

I'd like to see how these "no government" people would feel if it really DID destroy everything they own; it's real easy to say "so what" until it hits YOU, or even, as is happening to Mal4 and others, when it hits those you love, their businesses and lives. The big Santa Cruz fire we had a couple of years back hit me like a ton of bricks, and I don't even know anyone down there who was affected. It's enough to know that places you've loved all your lives are gone forever and imagine what it would be like to see it coming toward your home. I don't think some people are able to imagine how it would feel or what it would do; it's easy to be blase about it until it hits home. I thank gawd we're surrounded by redwoods; those puppies are the best fire break in the world; but even that wouldn't help us if a fire broke out near our home.

I'm actually avoiding the news on it by now; I can't bear to see how many and how they keep going any more. I really feel for you, and I know the firefighters out there are busting their asses to save what they can and stop the damned things. My heart goes out to THEM, too.

Around here we're always fearful a fire will hit our beloved Mountain, and they have regular "controlled burns" to try and prevent them. Paula, my oldest friend and retired ranger up in Tahoe, is a volunteer who helps out with the controlled burns they have up there. Just the bit she does to help has given her a good feeling for what it's like to be around them, and given her a lot of respect for fire's power. She helped out many years ago when they had a big one up her way--the training she'd had doing controlled burns made her able to help in some areas. She's never forgotten what it was like to be even that near the power of a fire, I can't even imagine it.

Best just get ready for it, folks. The climate IS changing, and there's more to come, especially for us out West and fires. We just had another really dry Winter, and everyone is holding their breath hoping we make it through Summer okay. I can only hope your fires get under control asap and as few as possible suffer the results. My heart really goes out to you.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

NO, that's why I pay insurance and why I've been dilgent that I would only have one child. I thought it was one of the unwritten rules of life that Gov't miight be there if you need it but if you really really wanna be sure, best to have your own butt covered.

I tried relying on the gov't once and I got the cold shoulder. Makes one grow up and understand the reality of existence really damn quick. No one is gonna care more about you than you yourself can.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 9:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Can you even conceive of how many civilian organizations it would require, and at what cost, for each state to "take care of" its own? Where would Colorado be today if they only had their own "civilian organization" of firefighteres out there fighting the current fires?

It's sad how some peple seem to be incapable of conceiving of a middle ground. How they can't imagine citizens pitching in to help when their own resources requires help from the government. It has to be all or nothing for people like you, and that's sad because the result, if you got your way, would be devastating. I'm sorry for you.

Absolutes when it comes to political stances are no answer to anything, just partisan blathering.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

You're making a big assumption here. Do you really think that this basic help-yourself stuff is something novel that you thought up and no one else has ever tried? No. Duh. The difference between you and me is that I assume people are sensible enough to have taken those steps, and you seem to think you're the only one who's come up with such novel ideas. You, and most conservatives these days, seem to think that supporting govt programs means taking no individual actions. Why do you make it all or nothing?

I heard that, as of this morning, maybe 200 homes in western CO springs have burned. Do you think those people didn't have insurance? Do you think they made no efforts to clear brush, wet their trees, get out their fire extinguishers, make plans with neighbors to help each other? Do you really believe none of this actions were taken, or that these actions could have stopped this fire?

Do you any concept of how DEAD a bunch of civilians would be if they had tried to stop that inferno coming down the mountain? Or how FAILED a small-town local fire dept would be if they tried to handle it with no outside help?

Really, I find it frustrating how people like you assume that others are sitting on their sofas, not buying insurance, not taking basic steps to prepare themselves against disasters, and whining "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." Maybe you make the assumption that other people are like that because your own mindset is, or was, once something like that? I have no idea what you're like, but you do seem to think it's a big step to take care of one's own shit. Um... not so much. That's pretty much a basic for most of us.

BTW, your above post is pretty much a callous, offensive and dickish thing to say right now. How about you fly out to Colorado, sit down with the 32000 evacuees and tell them to stop whining: "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me...". And when you're done, head to the hills and show us just how your patented "self-reliance plan" can save an entire city.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:25 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Hello,

There may be many problems a local group of civilians can solve. Let's call this group a 'neighborhood.'

When a problem is beyond them, they may form a larger unit of civilians with more resources who all chip into solving the problem. Let's call this group a 'city.'

When a problem outstrips the capacity of those people to handle, they may form into a larger unit of people from a larger swath of the area. Let's call this group a 'county.'

Sometimes even more people and resources are needed to solve a problem, and sometimes a problem is a wide ranging problem requiring input from people outside the county. When this happens, the civilians form into a vast collective force known as a 'state.'

Occasionally, even a state is confronted with problems that are bigger than its capacity to handle. When this happens, the civilians from across the land pool resources and form what we call a 'nation.'

I often have problems with the way these civilian collectives solve their problems and make decisions. However, I am not prepared to dismiss the need for them.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:31 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Can you even conceive of how many civilian organizations it would require, and at what cost, for each state to "take care of" its own? Where would Colorado be today if they only had their own "civilian organization" of firefighteres out there fighting the current fires?

I guessing they'd have an out of control fire...so they'd be in exactly the same position today.

Tomorrow is where interstate and interagency cooperation counts most.

Quote:

Absolutes when it comes to political stances are no answer to anything, just partisan blathering.

Katrina, Bush let the black folks drown.

Colorado, Obama let the white folks burn.

Both statements are equally stupid since the weather is actually controlled by Sean Connery.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 10:50 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
In terms of politics... I have to say that if I were a campaign strategist for the president, I would tell him to just run footage of all these wildfires interspliced with Romney saying we don't need more firefighters. Considering the amount of devastation and the definite and undeniable need for firefighters here, I think it would make Romney pretty unpopular in Colorado. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are now thousands of firefighters in this state risking their lives, and I'm just... I'm totally on their side.

Obama's doing one better: he's coming to tour the Waldo Canyon fire on Friday.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20951895/president-obama-tou
r-waldo-canyon-fire-friday

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:14 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I adore you, Anthony.

Quote:
Originally posted by YINYANG:
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20951895/president-obama-tou
r-waldo-canyon-fire-friday]

Good for him!
(I'm still in favor of repetition, repetition, repetition.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I guessing they'd have an out of control fire...so they'd be in exactly the same position today.

No. Less control could easily mean half the city of Colorado Springs gone. If it was only the fire dept. of the Springs trying to beat it back, they couldn't have done it, because it required hundreds of people to hold a containment line at the city limits. The wind broke that line, but they're re-establishing it.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Katrina, Bush let the black folks drown.

Colorado, Romney said let the white folks burn, since we don't need any more firefighters.

Fixed that for ya!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Would you say the same thing about healthcare, or abortion? "Life's unexpected; deal with it yourself."

Seems a pretty cold way to live.

NO, that's why I pay insurance and why I've been dilgent that I would only have one child. I thought it was one of the unwritten rules of life that Gov't miight be there if you need it but if you really really wanna be sure, best to have your own butt covered.

I tried relying on the gov't once and I got the cold shoulder. Makes one grow up and understand the reality of existence really damn quick. No one is gonna care more about you than you yourself can.

Okay, I've got fire insurance, health insurance, life insurance. I can reasonably protect my house and family. What I *DON'T* have, though, is fire insurance on an entire forest, an entire city, or even my entire block, or the ability to fight the fire while it's ten miles away instead of when it's on my doorstep.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:23 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

I'm trying not to let my shock and worry lead me to saying mean things, but I need to ask our conservative friends if they really want to get rid of the federal govt and leave every community in the country to battle disasters like this on their own. You can't have it both ways. You can't cut everything back, then demand instant and unlimited help when you need it. You can't say you want the feds the hell out of your life, then blame them when they don't swoop down and save you in a near impossible situation.

So many other issues related to this. Climate change, for instance... ?

Anyway, please discuss. I'll be up all night anyway, checking to see which way this thing goes.

Govt has a proper function. Aiding in natural disasters and helping control illegal immigration, yes, but telling us how much soda we can buy or forcing us to put in pool side ladles for the handicap, not so much. The problem is the bureaucrats who want govt to be everything for everyone ( Obama's "Julia" , is a prime example ), and that is NOT what the founders had intended.

It's not suppose to be an 'all or nothing' proposition. Anyone who says that is lying, or is trying to deceive. What gets folks so annoyed is how some want to thrust govt upon us , at every damn turn of our lives, and then scream that if we didn't have govt, we'd all be living in anarchy! No one would fight fires, pick up trash, or catch criminals! What a load of hooey. Those things are what govt SHOULD be doing, and yet there's long list of pork that steals $ away from essential services, to placate certain voter blocks, which keep " the right people " in Washington, or where ever.

A comparison can be made to the mafia, who come around and hit up shop owners for 'protection money'. " Nice place ya got here. Sure would be a shame if it accidentally caught fire one night...or if your pretty wife or daughter crossed paths w/ the wrong sort of people, while their on the way home from work, or ballet class. "

Cases like this fire are prime examples. Why if Republicans had their way, there'd be NO ONE to fight this fire !! See what I mean? It's either all or nothing with some folks. Yes, we need fire , police and EMT's, but we DON'T need John Murtha Regional Airports, which serve next to no one. or even a Reagan Int'l Conference center. And there are 1000's of examples i could give, but no one cares about THOSE silly little things, not when there's an actual big ass fire burning in Colorado! That's NEWS! That's NOW!

And that's the point. The big govt types will use these extreme situations to rustle up sympathy for more and more govt, so that ' never again!' will there be any thing like this happen to the good people of our great nation!

please!

And don't get me started on the 100% sham that is ' climate change'.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization electrified the rural United States? Or even your city?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I see Kwickie has his usual selective reading skills on display.

Ever heard of C.C. Myers ? Google is your friend.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 11:46 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
If there was a way to fight that off, requiring some specialized training and gear that a government system can provide far more ably than any individual... you're saying that shouldn't be done because everyone should just "be prepared" to fight off their own goddamn tornado? Because if you're saying that, you are wrong on a level that makes my head spin.

I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING. A local problem is better fixed by people who are local than some idiot about to tee off a thousand miles away. Ever heard of civilian organizations?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge?

Can you tell me which non-government civilian organization electrified the rural United States? Or even your city?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

And before we even start with the idea that private companies would do better: for-profit companies won't bother putting in internet in the rural areas, where there's not enough customers. That's not how a country gets technologically advanced. We need to do things because it's good for the overall health and progress of the US, not because it profits share-holders and nets big bonuses for CEOs.

And because I am in a rare position of thread-starter, I will kindly ask Kwicko to not turn this into a flame war with the usual poster who is dangling the usual low-hanging fruit. Yes he's wrong, yes he's annoying in his misunderstanding of the topic, gross generalizations, strawmen, etc. But stating the obvious will do nothing but turn this thread into the usual tit-for-tat. Thank you so much for not doing it.

In CO: the afternoon line of thunderstorms has not exploded as it did yesterday. Very good news! I just caught a time lapse of the fire taking off during the storm yesterday. Insane

Re Obama: I'm glad he's bringing attention and support to this, but I wish he would not visit so soon. It would better to avoid the distraction until the fire is really out. Better that he voice his support and send someone minor who wouldn't disrupt operations, then come in a week or two. Hopefully his visit will be brief.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

PR, your reply is exactly what I'm taking about. Over the top hyperbole and distortion of the issue. No one has ever said what you're suggesting, and yet you keep saying it anyways. It's beyond infuriating to even try to have a sensible , reasonable discussion , it seems.

" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:05 PM

BYTEMITE

That isn't respect for her views at all! :P

Honestly, I've been avoiding addressing the thread topic myself for a reason - it is actually difficult for me to reconcile that there probably are services we DO need, with my hatred and dislike for anything bureaucratic, and my paranoia that when you give people that power, they could deliberately WITHHOLD help and that it may be a bad precedence.

My best effort to justify myself all this says that I shouldn't try to take services and security away from the people who want them, but rather I should move outside of the jurisdication of those services. My personal disaster plan is that I don't really want to own so much stuff that any of it amounts to any significant wealth that could be lost or that I couldn't pack up and flee ahead of any disaster, natural or man-made. But that isn't because I'm somehow better than people who do want an easier life, or because I'm a pull myself up by the bootstraps person (I'm not), but rather because I can admit that I have a very skewed worldview and somewhat low opinion about my own self-worth.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'm saying that PEOPLE should do more to fix things themselves, and quit sitting on their hands going "Gov't, oh gov't, save me save me..." I don't believe a gov't IS more able, to do ANYTHING.

I see. Well, out of respect for your views, I hope that if your house ever catches fire, the government-run fire department will leave you to deal with it on your own.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Anthony totally called it. (I love him too PR! What a voice of reason.) It's interesting that "groups of people working together" is deemed A-OK, but "government" is evil and useless. Really, wishimay did suggest that the govt is 100% useless. Which suggests that she isn't watching the news in CO right now.

I think the difference is that "government" has attempted to regulate big business, so big business bought itself a political party, carried out a propaganda war, and a large part of the country has bought into the nonsense.

I don't mean to completely villain-ize wish. She and I share a similar frustration with people expecting the government to save them, but my frustration is not that govt aid is wanted as much as that it is expected without being supported. People will cheer Romney and his cutting of fire depts and teachers, but then they'll scream when their house isn't saved or when a weak, pushover old lady is employed as a bus monitor and can't handle middle school bullies. (How's that for a change in topic LOL! I've seen complaints about this on other sites.) But I think it's similar - public schools need support if they are to hire more competent employees. Fire depts need support to be prepared for things like this.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
That isn't respect for her views at all! :P

Well, she said that she thought the govt groups could NOT do a good job. So keeping those "incompetents" away from her seems like it'd be a kindness.

Quote:
Honestly, I've been avoiding addressing the thread topic myself for a reason - it is actually difficult for me to reconcile that there probably are services we DO need, with my hatred and dislike for anything bureaucratic, and my paranoia that when you give people that power, they could deliberately WITHHOLD help and that it may be a bad precedence.

That's a terrifying thought. I understand your fear, and I don't think this kind of caution should ever go away. The only way to stop abuse of power is to be aware of the possibility of it.

But I don't think it has to handicap us. The root of it is that we all so easily see "Them", the people in charge, as some other species. As Anthony said, govt is just groups of people trying to help each other. You can see it in CO right now, and I say this as someone who pretty disdains most of the population of the Springs. Bunch of Focus on the Family Fuckwads.

But they are all about getting through this as a city right now, and it's lovely.

Yes, to live in a society and enjoy the benefits of it, you have to give "Them" power, and that's scary. But if you ask your neighbors to feed your cat while you're away you are also handing power to people you do not know 100%. There is always risk in interacting with other people.

All you can do is be careful. Checks and balances. I find the risk is always lower than my fears and the news would have me think. I often don't lock my front door or my car (unless I leave my computer in there.) And it's really OK. Not everyone is out to get me. I have the top off my Jeep now, and I leave stuff in there while it's parked in the train station all day, and all is well.

Really, I think the "bad" out there is so much smaller than most of us think.

Quote:
My best effort to justify myself all this says that I shouldn't try to take services and security away from the people who want them, but rather I should move outside of the jurisdication of those services. My personal disaster plan is that I don't really want to own so much stuff that any of it amounts to any significant wealth that could be lost or that I couldn't pack up and flee ahead of any disaster, natural or man-made. But that isn't because I'm somehow better than people who do want an easier life, or because I'm a pull myself up by the bootstraps person (I'm not), but rather because I can admit that I have a very skewed worldview and somewhat low opinion about my own self-worth.

I respect that. I am similarly skewed, and my theory is to at least not harm others with my skewed-ness. This involves a bit of keeping myself separate, so I know what you mean.

But I'm definitely a pull-myself-up kind of person. I feel that, with the exception of one parental $$ loan that I did not have to pay back, no one ever gave me anything. However, I've found a decent place in life by taking advantage of opportunities that could have easily not been there. I owe a debt to karma, and frankly I don't do enough to pay it back. I'm not really sure how to, besides trying to be a nicer person. (I don't always succeed.

) Hopefully I'll find ways to do more as I get older.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"It would better to avoid the distraction until the fire is really out."

Just a small bit I find interesting - here in SoCal fires continue to burn underground for months until the rainy season. I'm not sure what would happen if we had a major fire followed by a severe drought with 4" of rain or less.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:27 PM