REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Fast and Furious: Some facts

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:50
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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Just FYI. If anyone's actually interested in knowing the facts of how F&F really went down, here are the facts according to a lengthy Fortune investigation. I realize for those who want to believe the spin that the facts are irrelevant, but here they are for those who are able to think beyond the swill they're fed. Yeah, it's really long, but that's because it's detailed information researched and put together by Fortune. Take it however you want.
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In the annals of impossible assignments, Dave Voth's ranked high. In 2009 the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives promoted Voth to lead Phoenix Group VII, one of seven new ATF groups along the Southwest border tasked with stopping guns from being trafficked into Mexico's vicious drug war.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Voth, 39, was a good choice for a Sisyphean task. Strapping and sandy-haired, the former Marine is cool-headed and punctilious to a fault. In 2009 the ATF named him outstanding law-enforcement employee of the year for dismantling two violent street gangs in Minneapolis. He was the "hardest working federal agent I've come across," says John Biederman, a sergeant with the Minneapolis Police Department. But as Voth left to become the group supervisor of Phoenix Group VII, a friend warned him: "You're destined to fail."

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

The agents faced numerous obstacles in what they dubbed the Fast and Furious case. (They named it after the street-racing movie because the suspects drag raced cars together.) Their greatest difficulty by far, however, was convincing prosecutors that they had sufficient grounds to seize guns and arrest straw purchasers. By June 2010 the agents had sent the U.S. Attorney's office a list of 31 suspects they wanted to arrest, with 46 pages outlining their illegal acts. But for the next seven months prosecutors did not indict a single suspect.

On Dec. 14, 2010, a tragic event rewrote the narrative of the investigation. In a remote stretch of Peck Canyon, Ariz., Mexican bandits attacked an elite U.S. Border Patrol unit and killed an agent named Brian Terry. The attackers fled, leaving behind two semiautomatic rifles. A trace of the guns' serial numbers revealed that the weapons had been purchased 11 months earlier at a Phoenix-area gun store by a Fast and Furious suspect.

Ten weeks later, an ATF agent named John Dodson, whom Voth had supervised, made startling allegations on the CBS Evening News. He charged that his supervisors had intentionally allowed American firearms to be trafficked—a tactic known as "walking guns"—to Mexican drug cartels. Dodson claimed that supervisors repeatedly ordered him not to seize weapons because they wanted to track the guns into the hands of criminal ringleaders. The program showed internal e-mails from Voth, which purportedly revealed agents locked in a dispute over the deadly strategy. The guns permitted to flow to criminals, the program charged, played a role in Terry's death.

After the CBS broadcast, Fast and Furious erupted as a major scandal for the Obama administration. The story has become a fixture on Fox News and the subject of numerous reports in media outlets from CNN to the New York Times. The furor has prompted repeated congressional hearings—with U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder testifying multiple times—dueling reports from congressional committees, and an ongoing investigation by the Justice Department's inspector general. It has led to the resignations of the acting ATF chief, the U.S. Attorney in Arizona, and his chief criminal prosecutor.

Conservatives have pummeled the Obama administration, and especially Holder, for more than a year. "Who authorized this program that was so felony stupid that it got people killed?" Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, demanded to know in a hearing in June 2011. He has charged the Justice Department, which oversees the ATF, with having "blood on their hands." Issa and more than 100 other Republican members of Congress have demanded Holder's resignation.

The conflict has escalated dramatically in the past ten days. On June 20, in a day of political brinkmanship, Issa's committee voted along party lines, 23 to 17, to hold Holder in contempt of Congress for allegedly failing to turn over certain subpoenaed documents, which the Justice Department contended could not be released because they related to ongoing criminal investigations. The vote came hours after President Obama asserted executive privilege to block the release of the documents. Holder now faces a vote by the full House of Representatives this week on the contempt motion (though negotiations over the documents continue). Assuming a vote occurs, it will be the first against an attorney general in U.S. history.

As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

There's the rub.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

How Fast and Furious reached the headlines is a strange and unsettling saga, one that reveals a lot about politics and media today. It's a story that starts with a grudge, specifically Dodson's anger at Voth. After the terrible murder of agent Terry, Dodson made complaints that were then amplified, first by right-wing bloggers, then by CBS. Rep. Issa and other politicians then seized those elements to score points against the Obama administration, which, for its part, has capitulated in an apparent effort to avoid a rhetorical battle over gun control in the run-up to the presidential election. (A Justice Department spokesperson denies this and asserts that the department is not drawing conclusions until the inspector general's report is submitted.)

"Republican senators are whipping up the country into a psychotic frenzy with these reports that are patently false," says Linda Wallace, a special agent with the Internal Revenue Service's criminal investigation unit who was assigned to the Fast and Furious team (and recently retired from the IRS). A self-described gun-rights supporter, Wallace has not been criticized by Issa's committee.

The ATF's accusers seem untroubled by evidence that the policy they have pilloried didn't actually exist. "It gets back to something basic for me," says Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa). "Terry was murdered, and guns from this operation were found at his murder site." A spokesman for Issa denies that politics has played a role in the congressman's actions and says "multiple individuals across the Justice Department's component agencies share responsibility for the failure that occurred in Operation Fast and Furious." Issa's spokesman asserts that even if ATF agents followed prosecutors' directives, "the practice is nonetheless gun walking." Attorneys for Dodson declined to comment on the record.

For its part, the ATF would not answer specific questions, citing ongoing investigations. But a spokesperson for the agency provided a written statement noting that the "ATF did not exercise proper oversight, planning or judgment in executing this case. We at ATF have accepted responsibility and have taken appropriate and decisive action to insure that these errors in oversight and judgment never occur again." The statement asserted that the "ATF has clarified its firearms transfer policy to focus on interdiction or early intervention to prevent the criminal acquisition, trafficking and misuse of firearms," and it cited changes in coordination and oversight at the ATF.

Irony abounds when it comes to the Fast and Furious scandal. But the ultimate irony is this: Republicans who support the National Rifle Association and its attempts to weaken gun laws are lambasting ATF agents for not seizing enough weapons—ones that, in this case, prosecutors deemed to be legal.

The investigation begins

The ATF is a bureau of judgment calls. Drug enforcement agents can confiscate cocaine and arrest anyone in possession of it. But ATF agents must distinguish constitutionally protected legal guns from illegal ones, with the NRA and other Second Amendment activists watching for missteps.

Critics have depicted the ATF as "jackbooted government thugs" trampling on the rights of law-abiding gun owners. From the deadly standoff with the Branch Davidian [BA1] cult in Waco, Texas, in 1993 to allegations that ATF agents illegally seized weapons from suspected straw purchasers at a Richmond gun show in 2005, these scandals have helped cement the bureau's reputation in some quarters for law-enforcement overreach.

In part because of these notorious cases, the bureau has operated in a self-protective crouch. It has stuck to small single-defendant cases to the detriment of its effort to combat gun trafficking, the Justice Department's inspector general found in a review of ATF cases from 2007 to 2009. To refocus its efforts, the ATF established Group VII and the other Southwest border units to build big, multi-defendant conspiracy cases and target the leaders of the trafficking operations.

Of course, the ATF can be its own worst enemy. Voth arrived in Phoenix in December 2009 only to discover that his group had not been funded. The group had little equipment and no long guns, electronic devices, or binoculars, forcing Voth to scrounge for supplies.

Then there was Voth's seven-agent team, which was almost instantly at war with itself. Most of the agents were transplants, unfamiliar with Arizona or one another. Fast and Furious' lead case agent, Hope MacAllister, 41, was the exception—a tough, squared-away Phoenix veteran with little tolerance for complaints. Her unsmiling demeanor led Voth to give her the ironic nickname "Sunshine Bear." She declined to be interviewed.

Dodson, 41, arrived one day before Voth from a two-man outpost of ATF's Roanoke field office, where he'd worked since 2002. He had joined the ATF from the narcotics section of the Loudoun County sheriff's office in Virginia, where his blunt, even obnoxious manner did not earn him friends. He's "an asshole sometimes—there is no other way to put it," says his former partner, Ken Dondero, who served as best man at Dodson's wedding. "He's almost too honest. He believes that if he has a thought in his head, it's there to broadcast to everyone."

Voth, MacAllister, and a third agent, Tonya English, were quintessential by-the-book types. By contrast, Dodson and two other new arrivals, Olindo "Lee" Casa and Lawrence Alt, seemed to chafe at ATF rules and procedures. (An attorney for Casa says that "in light of the current congressional investigation, as well as investigations by the Department of Justice Inspector General and the Office of Special Counsel" it would be premature to comment. A lawyer for Alt says Alt could not be interviewed because he is in mediation to settle a suit he filed in which he charges that he was retaliated against for being a whistleblower.)

Dodson's faction grew antagonistic to Voth. They regularly fired off snide e-mails and seemed to delight in mocking Voth and his methodical nature. They were scornful of protocol, according to ATF agents. Dodson would show up to work in flip-flops. He came unprepared for operations—without safety equipment or back-up plans—and was pulled off at least one surveillance for his own safety, say two colleagues. He earned the nickname "Renegade," and soon Voth's group effectively divided into two clashing factions: the Sunshine Bears and the Renegades.

Even had they all gotten along, they faced a nearly impossible task. They were seven agents pursuing more than a dozen cases, of which Fast and Furious was just one, their efforts complicated by a lack of adequate tools. Without a real-time database of gun sales, they had to perform a laborious archaeology. Day after day, they visited local gun dealers and pored over forms called 4473s, which dealers must keep on file. These contain a buyer's personal information, a record of purchased guns and their serial numbers, and a certification that the buyer is purchasing the guns for himself. (Lying on the forms is a felony, but with weak penalties attached.) The ATF agents manually entered these serial numbers into a database of suspect guns to help them build a picture of past purchases.

By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.

Prosecutors: Transferring guns is legal in Arizona

This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime." (Arizona federal prosecutors referred requests for comment to the Justice Department, which declined to make officials available. Hurley noted in an e-mail, "I am not able to comment on what I understand to be an ongoing investigation/prosecution. I am precluded by federal regulation, DOJ policy, the rules of professional conduct, and court order from talking with you about this matter." Cunningham's attorney also declined to comment.)

It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction. And agents could not seize guns or arrest suspects after being directed not to do so by a prosecutor. (Agents can be sued if they seize a weapon against prosecutors' advice. In this case, the agents had a particularly strong obligation to follow the prosecutors' direction given that Fast and Furious had received a special designation under the Justice Department's Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force. That designation meant more resources for the case, but it also provided that prosecutors take the lead role.)

In their Jan. 5 meeting, Hurley suggested another way to make a case: Voth's team could wiretap the phone of a suspected recruiter and capture proof of him directing straw purchasers to buy guns. This would establish sufficient proof to arrest both the leaders and the followers.

On Jan. 8, 2010, Voth and his supervisors drafted a briefing paper in which they explained Hurley's view that "there was minimal evidence at this time to support any type of prosecution." The paper elaborated, "Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators."
Rep. Issa's committee has flagged this document as proof that the agents chose to walk guns. But prosecutors had determined, Voth says, that the "transfer of firearms" was legal. Agents had no choice but to keep investigating and start a wiretap as quickly as possible to gather evidence of criminal intent.

Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene.

Rebuffed by the prosecutors

Voth was a logical thinker. He lived by advice he received from an early mentor in law enforcement: "There's what you think. There's what you know. There's what you can prove. And the first two don't count."

But he was not operating in a logical world. The wiretap represented the ATF's best—perhaps only— hope of connecting the gun purchases it had been documenting to orders from the cartels, according to Hurley. In Minneapolis, the prosecutors Voth had worked with had approved wiretap applications within 24 hours. But in Phoenix, days turned into weeks, and Group VII's wiretap application languished with prosecutors in Arizona and Washington, D.C.

No one has yet explained this delay. Voth thinks prosecutor Hurley's inexperience in wiretapping cases may have slowed the process. Several other agents speculate that Arizona's gun culture may have led to indifference. Hurley is an avid gun enthusiast, according to two law-enforcement sources who worked with him. One of those sources says he saw Hurley behind the counter at a gun show, helping a friend who is a weapons dealer.

William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"—by then, the Fast and Furious suspects had purchased 800 guns—"so I am setting up a briefing for him (alone no USAO 'posse') about this case and several other cases I feel he is being misled about."

The conflict between federal prosecutors and ATF agents had been growing for years. Pete Forcelli, who served as group supervisor of ATF's Phoenix I field division for five years, told Congress in June 2011 that he believed Arizona federal prosecutors made up excuses to decline cases. "Despite the existence [of] probable cause in many cases," he testified, "there were no indictments, no prosecutions, and criminals were allowed to walk free." Prosecutors in Los Angeles and New York were far more aggressive in pursuing gun cases, Forcelli asserted.

Phoenix-based ATF agents became so frustrated by prosecutors' intransigence that, in a highly unusual move, they began bringing big cases to the state attorney general's office instead. Terry Goddard, Arizona's Attorney General from 2003 to 2011, says of federal prosecutors, "They demanded that every i be dotted, every t be crossed, and after a while, it got to be nonsensical."

For prosecutors, straw-purchasing cases were hard to prove and unrewarding to prosecute, with minimal penalties attached. In December 2010, five U.S. Attorneys along the Southwest border, including Burke in Arizona, wrote to the U.S. Sentencing Commission, asking that penalties for straw purchasing be increased. The commission did increase the recommended jail time by a few months. But because the straw purchasers, by definition, have no criminal record and there is no firearms-trafficking statute that would allow prosecutors to charge them with conspiracy as a group, the penalties remain low.

Prosecutors repeatedly rebuffed Voth's requests. After examining one suspect's garbage, agents learned he was on food stamps yet had plunked down more than $300,000 for 476 firearms in six months. Voth asked if the ATF could arrest him for fraudulently accepting public assistance when he was spending such huge sums. Prosecutor Hurley said no. In another instance, a young jobless suspect paid more than $10,000 for a 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle. According to Voth, Hurley told the agents they lacked proof that he hadn't bought the gun for himself.

Voth grew deeply frustrated. In August 2010, after the ATF in Texas confiscated 80 guns—63 of them purchased in Arizona by the Fast and Furious suspects— Voth got an e-mail from a colleague there: "Are you all planning to stop some of these guys any time soon? That's a lot of guns…Are you just letting these guns walk?"

Voth responded with barely suppressed rage: "Have I offended you in some way? Because I am very offended by your e-mail. Define walk? Without Probable Cause and concurrence from the USAO [U.S. Attorney's Office] it is highway robbery if we take someone's property." He then recounted the situation with the unemployed suspect who had bought the sniper rifle. "We conducted a field interview and after calling the AUSA [assistant U.S. Attorney] he said we did not have sufficient PC [probable cause] to take the firearm so our suspect drove home with said firearm in his car…any ideas on how we could not let that firearm 'walk'"?

Voth believed the wiretap could help bring the case to a swift and successful close. On March 5, 2010, ten days before their first wiretap was set to begin, Voth was in Washington, D.C., to brief ATF brass and Justice Department officials on Fast and Furious. The response was overwhelmingly positive. A senior ATF attorney wrote Voth, "This is exactly the types of cases ATF should be doing with a wire, it is fantastic."

The schism inside Phoenix Group VII

Voth returned to Phoenix fully expecting his team to unite for the work that lay ahead. But instead he found a minor mutiny—over the schedule for the wire, which needed to be monitored around the clock. Dodson didn't want to work weekends. Casa felt his seniority should exclude him from the effort.

Agents were getting pulled from other field offices to assist, and on March 11, one wrote to ask Voth, "You're not going to give the out-of-towners the crappy shifts, are you?" Voth responded, "I am attempting to split the weekends so everyone has to work one of the two days that way no one gets screwed too hard and everybody gets screwed a little bit."

The next day, March 12, Voth sent out the wire schedule at 5:15 p.m. but got such a blizzard of complaints about the shifts that, two hours later, he sent another e-mail to the group. It read in part: "[T]here may be a schism developing amongst the group. This is the time we all need to pull together not drift apart. We are all entitled to our respective (albeit different) opinions however we all need to get along and realize we have a mission to accomplish. I am thrilled and proud that our Group is the first ATF Southwest Border Group in the country to be going up on [a] wire…I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors or other adolescent behavior…I don't know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don't think this is fun you're in the wrong line of work—period! This is the pinnacle of domestic U.S. law-enforcement techniques. After this the tool box is empty."

The wire turned out to be short lived. Within days, the agents realized that their suspect was phasing out use of the phone they were monitoring. Group VII would have to reapply, all over again, for permission to tap the new phone number.

But Voth's so-called "schism e-mail" would live in infamy. Today it is held up as proof that the group was desperately divided over the tactic of gun walking and that Voth belittled those who opposed it. But there is no documentary evidence that agents Dodson, Casa, or Alt complained to their supervisors about the alleged gun walking, had confrontations about it, or were retaliated against because of their complaints, as they all later claimed.

Who's opposed to gun walking?

The atmosphere inside Voth's group had become toxic. The subjects of dispute were often trivial. For example, when Voth asked Casa to turn off his computer's Godzilla sound effect, which roared each time he got an e-mail, Casa replied, "I have done some limited research and have found no ATF order or internal division memo addressing this issue."

Voth remained even-tempered but did take a stand after one incident. Alt taped to Voth's door an eight-point takedown of agent MacAllister, sarcastically stating that she was in charge of everything. Voth reported the note to an ATF attorney, and Alt apologized. It's unclear what drove the men's anger, but it seems unlikely that it was caused by disagreements over alleged gun walking.

How is it possible to deduce that? Because Dodson then proceeded to walk guns intentionally, with Casa and Alt's help. On April 13, 2010, one month after Voth wrote his schism e-mail, Dodson opened a case into a suspected gun trafficker named Isaiah Fernandez. He had gotten Casa to approve the case when Voth was on leave. Dodson had directed a cooperating straw purchaser to give three guns to Fernandez and had taped their conversations without a prosecutor's approval.

Voth first learned these details a month into the case. He demanded that Dodson meet with him and get approval from prosecutors to tape conversations. Five days later, Dodson sent an uncharacteristically diplomatic response. (He and Alt had revised repeated drafts in that time, with Alt pushing to make the reply "less abrasive." Dodson e-mailed back: "Less abrasive? I felt sick from kissing all that ass as it was.") Dodson wrote that he succeeded in posing undercover as a straw purchaser and claimed that prosecutor Hurley—who he had just belatedly contacted—had raised "new concerns." The prosecutor had told Dodson that an assistant U.S. Attorney "won't be able to approve of letting firearms 'walk' in furtherance of your investigation without first briefing the U.S. Attorney and Criminal Chief."

It was the first time Voth learned that Dodson intended to walk guns. Voth says he refused to approve the plan and instead consulted his supervisor, who asked for a proposal from Dodson in writing. Dodson then drafted one, which Voth forwarded to his supervisor, who approved it on May 28.

On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez, who reimbursed him and gave him $700 for his efforts. Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, "if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it"—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns. That day, Voth wrote to remind him that money collected as evidence needed to be vouchered within five days. Dodson e-mailed back, his sarcasm fully restored: "Do the orders define a 'day'? Is it; a calendar day? A business day or work day….? An Earth day (because a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days which would mean that I have plenty of time)?"

The guns were never recovered, the case was later closed, and Fernandez was never charged. By any definition, it was gun walking of the most egregious sort: a government agent using taxpayer money to deliver guns to bad guys and then failing to intercept them.

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On Feb. 4, 2011, the Justice Department sent a letter to Sen. Grassley saying that the allegations of gun walking in Fast and Furious were false and that ATF always tried to interdict weapons. A month later, Grassley countered with what appeared to be slam-dunk proof that ATF had indeed walked guns. "[P]lease explain how the denials in the Justice Department's Feb. 4, 2011 letter to me can be squared with the evidence," Grassley wrote, attaching damning case reports that he contended "proved that ATF allowed guns to 'walk.'" The case and agent names were redacted, but the reports were not from Fast and Furious. They came entirely from Dodson's Fernandez case.

An unusual alliance

By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila's name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth's agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry's death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).

Meanwhile, a crucial part of the Fast and Furious scandal—an unusual alliance that would prod politicians and spread word of the failure to stop guns from making their way to Mexican drug cartels—was waiting in the wings. Little more than a week after Terry's murder, a small item about the possible connection between his death and the Fast and Furious case appeared on a website, CleanUpATF.org. The site was the work of a disgruntled ATF agent-turned-whistleblower, Vince Cefalu, who is suing the bureau for alleged mistreatment in an unrelated case. His website has served as a clearinghouse for grievances and a magnet for other ATF whistleblowers.

It had also attracted gun-rights activists loosely organized around a blog called the Sipsey Street Irregulars, run by a former militia member, Mike Vanderboegh, who has advocated armed insurrection against the U.S. government. It was an incendiary combination: the disgruntled ATF agents wanted to punish and reform the bureau; the gun-rights activists wanted to disable it. After the item about Terry appeared, the bloggers funneled the allegations through a "desert telegraph" of sorts to Republican lawmakers, who began asking questions.

A week after the initial Fast and Furious press conference in January 2011, Dodson dropped a small bombshell. He told a supervisor that he had been contacted by congressional staff. Dodson met that day with two ATF supervisors. According to their written contemporaneous accounts, Dodson was vague but claimed that Voth had always "treated him like shit" and that it "felt good" to speak with someone outside ATF.

Dodson appeared on the CBS Evening News a week later. As Voth watched the program from his living room, he says, he wanted to vomit. He saw sentences from his "schism" e-mail reproduced on the TV screen. But CBS didn't quote the portions of Voth's e-mail that described how the group was divided by "petty arguing" and "adolescent behavior." Instead, CBS claimed the schism had been caused by opposition to gun walking (such alleged opposition is not discussed anywhere in the e-mail, which is below). CBS asserted that Dodson and others had protested the tactic "over and over," and then quoted portions of Voth's e-mail in a way that left the impression that gun walking was endorsed at headquarters. CBS contacted the ATF (but not Voth directly). The result was a report that incorrectly painted Voth as zealously promoting gun walking. (A CBS spokeswoman, Sonya McNair, says CBS does not publicly discuss its editorial process but notes, "The White House has already acknowledged the truth of our report.")

The "Witch Hunt"

Less than 36 hours after the CBS report, Voth was jolted awake at dawn by the blaring of his burglar alarm. With his wife and children still in bed, he crept down the stairs of his desert home, his ATF-issued .40 caliber Sig Sauer extended before him. In the garage, he saw a door ajar and a massive kettle bell he used for workouts knocked from its place. Outside, the fleeing intruder had left behind a partial footprint in the sand.

As Voth waited for the police, he checked his e-mail and found an anonymous threat, sent minutes earlier: "You God-damned stupid 'Yes-Man' who does not have either the morals, or the intelligence, to realize that allowing this 'Fast and Furious' operation would result in unnecessary, unjustified deaths: MAY YOU EAT SHIT AND DIE." Later his wife found a strange car outside their house and an angry post on the Internet listing their home address. Voth confidentially shared his concern about that post in a meeting with two senior ATF officials, only to find an account of the meeting on the Sipsey Street blog within 24 hours.

The ATF's office of operations security investigated the threats to Voth. A confidential report on March 29, 2011, concluded, "ATF 'insiders' are the number one threat to GS Voth and his family." The report cited "at least six individuals," whom it did not name, who had "personal agendas to undermine the credibility of ATF supervisors and members of management as retribution for [Voth's] operational shortcomings." The report cited the two blogs and concluded that "the malicious intent of insiders" had led directly to Voth's becoming the target of a "nation-wide…libel campaign."

Politicians soon got involved, and the situation grew worse for the ATF. In June, Republican staffers for the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee released a joint report that leaned heavily on interviews with Dodson, Casa, and Alt and identified Voth as a central figure in the scandal. It quoted Dodson describing Voth as "giddy" over the slaughter in Mexico—Voth says he was deeply upset by the violence—but didn't reflect Voth's perspective. The report was released two weeks before Voth was scheduled to be questioned for the first time by congressional investigators. (A spokesman for Issa says the committee attempted to interview Voth earlier.)

As the allegations mounted, pressure intensified. In early July the ATF's once supportive acting director, Melson—who according to e-mails had been briefed weekly on the case—went to Congress and threw his own people under the bus. Melson told Grassley that he had read the case reports only after the scandal broke, and had been "sick to his stomach," according to press accounts of the meeting. In August, Melson resigned, as did Arizona's U.S. Attorney, Burke. (Melson's lawyer, Richard Cullen, says the Justice Department's inspector general will likely answer many of the continuing questions.) In December 2011, the Justice Department retracted its Feb. 4 letter, in which it had denied walking guns in the Fast and Furious case.

For Voth, steeped in military loyalty, Melson's betrayal was the blow he couldn't fathom. Voth began losing weight, losing sleep. As he puts it, "You barely remember your own name, your mind is going 100 miles an hour." He no longer knew what to do or who could be trusted. "There would be no way," he says, "to foreshadow this."

Since the scandal erupted, almost everyone associated with Fast and Furious has been reassigned. Dodson, Casa, and Alt have been transferred to other field offices. Voth, who has now been interviewed by congressional investigators and the Justice Department's inspector general, has been reassigned to a desk job in Washington.

New facts are still coming to light—and will likely continue to do so with the Justice Department inspector general's report expected in coming months. Among the discoveries: Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.

Today, with Attorney General Holder now squarely in the cross hairs of Congress, Democrats and Republicans are accusing each other of political machinations. Rep. Elijah Cummings, a Maryland Democrat and ranking member of the oversight committee, has accused Issa of targeting Holder as part of an "election-year witch hunt." Issa has alleged on Fox News that Fast and Furious is part of a liberal conspiracy to restrict gun rights: "Very clearly, [the ATF] made a crisis and they are using this crisis to somehow take away or limit people's Second Amendment rights." (Issa has a personal history on this issue: In 1972, at age 19, he was arrested for having a concealed, loaded .25-caliber automatic in his car; he ultimately pleaded guilty to possession of an unregistered gun.)

Issa's claim that the ATF is using the Fast and Furious scandal to limit gun rights seems, to put it charitably, far-fetched. Meanwhile, Issa and other lawmakers say they want ATF to stanch the deadly tide of guns, widely implicated in the killing of 47,000 Mexicans in the drug-war violence of the past five years. But the public bludgeoning of the ATF has had the opposite effect. From 2010, when Congress began investigating, to 2011, gun seizures by Group VII and the ATF's three other groups in Phoenix dropped by more than 90%. http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-trut
h/?hpt=hp_t2


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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 12:06 PM

MAL4PREZ


Hi Niki.

Thanks for the post. I actually did read through all of it. Annoying, but I think a good example of real life. Petty stupid shit between people being people gets blown up into big deal politics, conspiracy theories, etc.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 2:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Some interesting information in the article. Some things I could not reconcile.

Quote:

"Currently our strategy is to allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place, albeit at a much slower pace, in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators."


If the agents were merely observing 'legal' sales at this time, and not controlling the sales in any way, then how could they impact the 'pace' of firearms transfers?

Quote:

Fast and Furious' top suspects—Sinaloa Cartel operatives and Mexican nationals who were providing the money, ordering the guns, and directing the recruitment of the straw purchasers—turned out to be FBI informants who were receiving money from the bureau. That came as news to the ATF agents in Group VII.


This is a remarkable fact that makes me want the entire affair investigated even more, as it appears more than one agency was involved in the affair, perhaps with a different perspective and purpose.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Wednesday, June 27, 2012 4:23 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


What a disaster, sneaky rutters. I don't trust these guys.

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 3:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


There is black.... "NO GUNS"
And there is white.... "AMERICANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS"

And then there is some insane color nobody's ever invented before.... "EVERYTHING IN THIS ARTICLE"

Being a FIRM believer in an American's rights to bear arms, I also believe that something does need to be done about this ASAP. There has to be a way to limit, if not put a stop altogether to these blatant abuses of this right. I can't say I can offer a solution that wouldn't breach our constitutional rights without more time to think about it, but this is just embarrassing to any proud and responsible gun owner, and law abiding citizen.




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Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:35 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Anthony, as to the first, dunno when in time that statement took place; if it was before they discovered Arizona law wouldn't let them prosecute, maybe they thought they had that option. OR, maybe it was a matter of seizing more guns...seems to me they could do at least THAT much, couldn't they?

As to the second, dunno, but I can certainly see our bureaus--who seem LOTH to talk to one another!--creating a clusterfuck this way.

I don't know, I'd like to know one thing which would pretty much solve it for me: What exactly are the laws in Arizona, and what are the chances of prosecution? That would answer a lot; if there was little or no chance of prosecuting straw buyers, gun walking, etc., that would put weight on the Fortune article for me. If not, that would pretty much blast it out of the water. Simple as that...IF one can find out those two things.

The right is, of course, laughing at it as a work of "fiction", so who knows? What's amusing about it, that nobody seems to be noticing, is that if the Republicans conspiracy theory is right, what supposedly actually happened according to the Fortune writer, would just as easily achieve the "aim" they attribute to Obama...look at Six's reaction. I don't think he's alone among responsible gun owners, tho' I still don't believe that any of this, either way you believe it, would do a damned thing about tightening gun restrictions. MAYBE in Arizona, tho' I doubt anyone could affect that anyway, or any other gun restrictions, given the power of the NRA.

I note they are warning legislators that anyone voting against the contempt action will be "noted", which has made four or five Dems cave already. Their power is so great, I don't think ANYTHING can be done to restrict guns of any type, or how easy it is to buy them or send them over the border or anything else. Heard something that surprised me last night, that the NRA's members actually represent a tiny fraction of gun owners. Wow...talk about the power of the minority, when armed with money!


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Anthony, as to the first, dunno when in time that statement took place; if it was before they discovered Arizona law wouldn't let them prosecute, maybe they thought they had that option. OR, maybe it was a matter of seizing more guns...seems to me they could do at least THAT much, couldn't they?


Hello,

The article is exceedingly self-contradictory in this regard. It goes out of its way to say they couldn't seize the guns, and then we get this information about allowing the guns to go at a different pace. The discrepancy is so glaring that I'm surprised the piece's editor didn't insist that it be dealt with.

Quote:

What exactly are the laws in Arizona, and what are the chances of prosecution?


The laws in Arizona are exceedingly loose, and straw purchasing is a difficult thing to prove. (It is indeed illegal.) However, I think that they had met that standard of proof in several incidents, at least to a degree that would allow trial. It also would have been possible, had they chosen to do so, to work cooperatively with other agencies and have the perpetrators arrested on other charges which are provable. You have a combination of prosecutors who don't want to work hard for the money and agencies who don't want to work cooperatively.

That having been said, there is plenty here to be concerned about.

1) We know from this article that some of the straw purchasers in this case were working for the FBI

2) We know that ATF agents involved in Fast and the Furious were actually feeding guns to criminals themselves and letting those guns vanish. This was being done by F&F agents at the same time as F&F even if this specific operation was given a different name. Perhaps we should call this the group VII investigation.

3) We have odd irreconcilable statements about controlling the pace of straw purchases. I want to know a lot more about that. Either they couldn't do anything, or they could and they didn't.

4) And now we have Executive Privilege protecting additional documents.

I don't understand anyone who doesn't want this investigated further, whether you believe in conspiracy theories or not. Something odd was going on here and it behooves the public to know what it is.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:31 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Anthony, as to the first, dunno when in time that statement took place; if it was before they discovered Arizona law wouldn't let them prosecute, maybe they thought they had that option. OR, maybe it was a matter of seizing more guns...seems to me they could do at least THAT much, couldn't they?

As to the second, dunno, but I can certainly see our bureaus--who seem LOTH to talk to one another!--creating a clusterfuck this way.

I don't know, I'd like to know one thing which would pretty much solve it for me: What exactly are the laws in Arizona, and what are the chances of prosecution? That would answer a lot; if there was little or no chance of prosecuting straw buyers, gun walking, etc., that would put weight on the Fortune article for me. If not, that would pretty much blast it out of the water. Simple as that...IF one can find out those two things.

The right is, of course, laughing at it as a work of "fiction", so who knows? What's amusing about it, that nobody seems to be noticing, is that if the Republicans conspiracy theory is right, what supposedly actually happened according to the Fortune writer, would just as easily achieve the "aim" they attribute to Obama...look at Six's reaction. I don't think he's alone among responsible gun owners, tho' I still don't believe that any of this, either way you believe it, would do a damned thing about tightening gun restrictions. MAYBE in Arizona, tho' I doubt anyone could affect that anyway, or any other gun restrictions, given the power of the NRA.

I note they are warning legislators that anyone voting against the contempt action will be "noted", which has made four or five Dems cave already. Their power is so great, I don't think ANYTHING can be done to restrict guns of any type, or how easy it is to buy them or send them over the border or anything else. Heard something that surprised me last night, that the NRA's members actually represent a tiny fraction of gun owners. Wow...talk about the power of the minority, when armed with money!

]


Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT?

And, yes, I spell that in all caps....

I make a completely legitimate post that even you can wholly agree with, but you ignore me because you're just a bitch...

Whatever....

Regards,

~6


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I found "The Arizona legislature has largely preempted political subdivisions (counties, cities) from passing their own firearms laws."

As to AZ's state laws, what I found was:

• Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No
• Registration of rifles and shotguns? No
• Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No
• Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No
Handguns
• Permit to purchase handgun? No
• Registration of handguns? No
• Licensing of owners of handguns? No
• Permit to carry handguns? Yes
Purchase:
• It is unlawful to sell or give to a minor, without written consent of the minor's parent or legal guardian, a firearm or ammunition.
• No state permit is required to purchase a shotgun, rifle, or handgun.
• It is unlawful to sell or transfer a firearm to a "prohibited possessor."

Possession
No state permit is required to possess a shotgun, rifle or handgun. It is unlawful for a "prohibited possessor" to possess a firearm.
• A prohibited possessor includes a person found to constitute a danger to himself or others pursuant to a court order and whose court ordered treatment has not been terminated.
• Who has been convicted of a felony involving violence or possession and use of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument and whose civil rights have not been restored.
• Who is at the time of possession serving a term of imprisonment in any correctional or detention facility.
• Who at the time of possession is serving a term of probation pursuant to a conviction for a domestic violence offense or a felony offense, parole, community supervision, work furlough, home arrest or release on any other basis or who is serving a term of probation or parole.
• Who was previously adjudicated delinquent and who possesses, uses or carries a firearm within ten years from the date of adjudication or release for an offense that if committed as an adult would constitute first or second degree burglary, arson, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, robbery, aggravated assault, sexual assault or any felony offense involving the use or threatening exhibition of a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.
• An unemancipated person under 18 not accompanied by a parent, grandparent, guardian, or a certified hunter safety instructor or certified firearms safety instructor acting with consent of the minor's parent, grandparent or guardian shall not carry or possess on his person, within his immediate control, or in or on a means of transportation a firearm in any place open to the public or on any street, highway, or on private property, except private property owned or leased by the minor or the minor's parent, grandparent, or guardian.
• This prohibition does not apply to a person between 14 and 17 engaged in lawful hunting, marksmanship practice, transportation of an unloaded firearm for the purpose of hunting or, between 5:00 a.m. and 10:00 p.m., transportation of an unloaded firearm for the purpose of marksmanship at a range or other area where the discharge of firearms is not prohibited.

Carrying:
• No person shall carry a firearm "concealed on his person." This does not apply to a person in his dwelling, business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person. A handgun carried in a belt holster which is wholly or partially visible or carried in luggage is not considered carrying concealed.
• It is unlawful to carry a firearm concealed within the immediate control of any person in or on a means of transportation. This does not apply to firearms carried in a case, holster or in a means of transportation or a storage compartment, trunk, pack, luggage, or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
• No person shall, unless specifically authorized by law, enter a public establishment or attend a public event carrying a firearm after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event to remove his firearm and place it in the custody of the operator or sponsor. This does not apply to shooting ranges or shooting events, hunting areas or similar locations or activities.
• It is unlawful, unless specifically authorized by law, to enter an election polling place on the day of any election carrying a firearm.
• It is unlawful to possess a deadly weapon on grade or high school grounds. This shall not apply to an unloaded firearm within a means of transportation under the control of an adult, provided, if the adult leaves the vehicle, it shall be locked and the unloaded firearm shall not be visible, or for a program approved by the school.

Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon
The Department of Public Safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a resident of the state at least 21 years old, a U.S. citizen, who satisfactorily completes an approved firearms safety program, submits fingerprints and a fee determined by the Department of Public Safety, and who does not fall into a class of person prohibited to possess a firearm, such as a convicted felon, adjudicated mental incompetent, or illegal alien.
The qualification checks shall be completed within 60 days of receipt of the application and the permit will be issued within 15 working days after completing the checks.
The permit is valid for not more than four years and is renewable every four years.
Miscellaneous
• It is unlawful to recklessly handle, display, or discharge a firearm with the intent to disturb the peace and quiet of a neighborhood, family or person.
• No person shall discharge a firearm from a motor vehicle, including an automobile, aircraft, train, boat or floating object towed by powerboat or sailboat.
• Wildlife may be taken in defense of self or another.
• No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm into a road or railway.
• It is unlawful to discharge a firearm while taking wildlife within a quarter mile of an occupied farm house or other residence, cabin, lodge or building without the permission of the owner or resident.
• It is unlawful to possess while hunting any contrivance designed to silence, muffle or minimize the report of a firearm.
• It is unlawful for any person while taking wildlife or while in any hunting area to handle or discharge any firearm while intoxicated or in a careless or reckless manner or with wanton disregard for the safety of human life or property.

(I'm not gonna bother to clean this up, I'm posting it verbatum--it lists "Source: National Rifle Association of America, Institute for Legislative Action" and can be found at both Wikipedia and http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_az.htm.)

I do NOT see anything that allows law enforcement to arrest anyone who is a "straw purchaser" per se (in other words, limitations on how many you can buy, limitations on buying guns then selling them/handing them over to/others), can you point it out to me if I missed it? It appears it is illegal to sell to a "criminal", but "criminal" is hard to specify, given the explanation of criminal. In essence, someone has to have been convicted of something to be a "prohibited possesor", or, if suspected of being a danger, "found to constitute a danger to himself or others pursuant to a court order". In other words, if someone buys a gun or guns, takes them home and gives them to anyone NOT already convicted of something, it requires a court order to stop them.

I don't see anything against taking a gun across the border; did I miss that? I see stuff about how to transport; apparently it's actually harder to carry a concealed weapon than "open carry" and requires a permit, etc., and even then guns can be transported "concealed" very easily. But nothing about the border. It mentions "illegal alien", but ONLY when it comes to CONCEALED weapon.

Few if any permits are required for gun purchase or ownership except by minors, and I see no limitation on how many one can buy at any time. Given these are the state laws and no counties or cities can make laws that differ, how exactly would law enforcement prosecute anyone for doing any of those things? Seems to me it would be damned hard, especially given the way this stuff is written, it looks like there are many "loopholes" a defense attorney could utilize, ergo prosecutors would be loth to take a case to court.


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Cute, Sux. I was referring to your statement
Quote:

Being a FIRM believer in an American's rights to bear arms, I also believe that something does need to be done about this ASAP. There has to be a way to limit, if not put a stop altogether to these blatant abuses of this right. I can't say I can offer a solution that wouldn't breach our constitutional rights without more time to think about it, but this is just embarrassing to any proud and responsible gun owner, and law abiding citizen.
Unless I misunderstood it, you were saying as a proud and responible gun owner you felt that the laxness of Arizona laws needed to be dealt with so that the kind of idiocy that took place could be stopped. I was saying that this might well reflect the feeling of many responsible gun owners upon finding out how easy it was for criminals and illegal aliens to get guns and how hard it was to prosecute anyone doing this staw purchaser, etc. If you were saying something else, then I misuderstood and take it back. Personally, I think any responsible gun owner would be shocked at how easily all this went down and how hard (or impossible) it was to stop it. If you were saying something else, the sentence I underlined made it seem as if you were saying that.

So thanx for calling me a cunt for thinking I was agreeing with you and holding you up as an example of what I believe many responsible gun owners would feel about this.


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:03 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Bullshit Nik...

You hate guns and you hate gun owners.....

I'm all about curbing this evil bullshit to make me look like the respectibale citizen with ZERO arrest records, ZERO DUI's and ZERO reason for the government to even look at me except that Haken is an agent and all our posts here might as well be fingerprint or DNA evidence.... :)

Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Cute, Sux. I was referring to your statement
Quote:

Being a FIRM believer in an American's rights to bear arms, I also believe that something does need to be done about this ASAP. There has to be a way to limit, if not put a stop altogether to these blatant abuses of this right. I can't say I can offer a solution that wouldn't breach our constitutional rights without more time to think about it, but this is just embarrassing to any proud and responsible gun owner, and law abiding citizen.
Unless I misunderstood it, you were saying as a proud and responible gun owner you felt that the laxness of Arizona laws needed to be dealt with so that the kind of idiocy that took place could be stopped. I was saying that this might well reflect the feeling of many responsible gun owners upon finding out how easy it was for criminals and illegal aliens to get guns and how hard it was to prosecute anyone doing this staw purchaser, etc. If you were saying something else, then I misuderstood and take it back. Personally, I think any responsible gun owner would be shocked at how easily all this went down and how hard (or impossible) it was to stop it. If you were saying something else, the sentence I underlined made it seem as if you were saying that.

So thanx for calling me a cunt for thinking I was agreeing with you and holding you up as an example of what I believe many responsible gun owners would feel about this.

]


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:



Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT?

And, yes, I spell that in all caps....

I make a completely legitimate post that even you can wholly agree with, but you ignore me because you're just a bitch...

Whatever....

Regards,

~6





Hello Six,

You are often incoherent, contradictory, brain-addled, rude, and probably pathologically insecure.

But I was able to put up with you until you called my friend a cunt and a bitch.

You have done nothing to earn respect or notice, but now you have invested in scorn.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Niki,

It is indeed difficult (I think I said this already) to convict straw purchasers. But it is illegal (and you have to sign a form to this effect, and this is mentioned in the article) to buy a gun that is intended for another person. Apparently prosecutors find it too difficult and, to paraphrase the article, 'not rewarding enough' to pursue people who do this. I believe the ATF agents had enough evidence to prosecute but the prosecutors didn't want to bother.

However, as I stated earlier, there are very well defined reasons to be very interested in this affair. I enumerated them for ease. This story, for me, is not about a hamstrung ATF team that found itself unable to do anything.

This story, for me, is about the things they did do. (As well as what other federal agencies did on different sides of this same investigation.)

--Anthony

ETA: The earlier enumerated list:

there is plenty here to be concerned about.

1) We know from this article that some of the straw purchasers in this case were working for the FBI

2) We know that ATF agents involved in Fast and the Furious were actually feeding guns to criminals themselves and letting those guns vanish. This was being done by F&F agents at the same time as F&F even if this specific operation was given a different name. Perhaps we should call this the group VII investigation.

3) We have odd irreconcilable statements about controlling the pace of straw purchases. I want to know a lot more about that. Either they couldn't do anything, or they could and they didn't.

4) And now we have Executive Privilege protecting additional documents.

I don't understand anyone who doesn't want this investigated further, whether you believe in conspiracy theories or not. Something odd was going on here and it behooves the public to know what it is.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Never forget what these men are.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 7:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:


The laws in Arizona are exceedingly loose, and straw purchasing is a difficult thing to prove. (It is indeed illegal.) However, I think that they had met that standard of proof in several incidents, at least to a degree that would allow trial. It also would have been possible, had they chosen to do so, to work cooperatively with other agencies and have the perpetrators arrested on other charges which are provable. You have a combination of prosecutors who don't want to work hard for the money and agencies who don't want to work cooperatively.




First, the snarky bit. "Prosecutors who don't want to work hard for the money..." Gee, who does that remind me of... anyone here... anyone...?

Second, the straw purchases thing. I've probably been a straw purchaser at some point. I had a gun my dad bought at a gun show and gave to me as a birthday gift 20 years or so ago. He could have been a straw purchaser for doing that. I also have a friend who bought a gun from a dealer, tried it out for a week or so, and decided he didn't like it that much, and moved onto something else, and sold me that gun for what he paid for it. Both could likely be considered straw purchases; neither was prosecuted by the Republican AGs at the times they occurred.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Second, the straw purchases thing. I've probably been a straw purchaser at some point. I had a gun my dad bought at a gun show and gave to me as a birthday gift 20 years or so ago. He could have been a straw purchaser for doing that. I also have a friend who bought a gun from a dealer, tried it out for a week or so, and decided he didn't like it that much, and moved onto something else, and sold me that gun for what he paid for it. Both could likely be considered straw purchases; neither was prosecuted by the Republican AGs at the times they occurred.


Hello,

If your Dad bought the gun for you, then he may have committed a crime. However, I'm not entirely sure. I know that there is a rule allowing the purchase of a firearm to a spouse. Possibly there is an exception for other close relations. However, it would be fairly easy for your Dad to escape prosecution by claiming to have lost interest in the weapon and then choosing to gift it to you.

Your friend, having tried out the weapon, clearly did not buy it with the exclusive intent of handing it over to someone, so he couldn't be pursued anyway.

I think a much stronger case could be made for someone who routinely purchases firearms and then turns them over to a particular party, over and over and over and over again.

When my Dad bought me a gun once, and when I bought my Dad a gun once, I handled it by going into the gun store with my Dad, and the person who would own the gun filled out the paperwork and got the background check, with my Dad giving me the money (or vice versa) and me (or he) then handing the money to the clerk. This was done specifically to avoid any claim of inappropriate transfer.

Used guns, that I have owned for months or years, have also been transferred without such a procedure, but there can be no valid claim for 'straw purchasing' the weapons since they were actually used by the party who owned them for some time before the new sale was made.

The devil is in the details.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, Anthony. Didn't surprise me, considering the source, but I found it weird that it came after I tried to explain that I THOUGHT I was agreeing with him...oh, well, what can you say?

Did I ever say I hated guns? I don't remember doing so. And if I hate gun owners, hooo, boy, is my marriage in trouble, 'cuz Jim owns several...

As to the discrepancies, etc., what gets me is that the Republicans aren't INTERESTED in all that! This whole thing is about who knew what and when they knew it, not about F&F itself! If they wanted to investigate F&F, I think that would be a good thing, but apparently they don't want to, they just want to take Holder down for reasons of their own.

When discussing the issue, we need to keep that in mind...they apparently don't give a rat's ass what F&F was about, whether it's the conspiracy they insist it was or what the Fortune article says it was, which as far as I'm concerned is what they SHOULD be looking into. If it was stupidity, someone should be held accountable. If it was a conspiracy, well, I find it impossible to believe their theory--the concept of Obama doing NOTHING to curb gun ownership, in fact expanding it, for four years, stopping F&F in 2011 when supposedly they found out all the facts, and doing all this so that in his second term (which apparently he believed was a shoe-in) he could restrict gun ownership. That is so outside the bounds of common sense as to be ridiculous.

The irony is that the Republicans COULD accept the Fortune version and say "see?", in that it highlighted the incompetence of the FBI, ATF, etc., and use what Fortune claims to back up their conspiracy theory, because it has bought to light how difficult Arizona's laws make it to stop the flow of guns to Mexico. If they really cared about what happened, they'd want to deal with Arizona's laws. If they wanted to promulgate their conspiracy theory, they could say how F&F illustrated the need for more gun legislation, at least in Arizona, which would back up their theory about Obama.

Instead they're going to do their contempt thing, only about who knew what and when, not who DID what and when. It's absurd. I find it both political gamesmanship with no interest in the actual issue, and sad for our country that things have gotten SO out of hand.

As for Sux, he's just pathetic and deserves no attention. As I said, I've been gone after by some real pros, and none of it bothers me, it just highlights again how you described him. So I've got another enemy (lord knows I have enough of them!), so what? None of them bother me, so let them rant and rave.


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Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:14 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:



Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT?

And, yes, I spell that in all caps....

I make a completely legitimate post that even you can wholly agree with, but you ignore me because you're just a bitch...

Whatever....

Regards,

~6




Hello Six,

You are often incoherent, contradictory, brain-addled, rude, and probably pathologically insecure.

But I was able to put up with you until you called my friend a cunt and a bitch.

You have done nothing to earn respect or notice, but now you have invested in scorn.

--Anthony




As always, T, you are both more patient and more charitable than I.

I've pretty much reached the point with Jack where I find him to have nothing at all to offer humanity except the little comic relief that comes from mocking him and holding him up as an example for ridicule.

I'm a gun owner, Jack. So is Anthony. I'm fairly certain Niki hates neither of us. Maybe it's not your guns, but your sterling personality (which is looking more than a little tarnished about now...)



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:20 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

As for Sux, he's just pathetic and deserves no attention. As I said, I've been gone after by some real pros, and none of it bothers me, it just highlights again how you described him. So I've got another enemy (lord knows I have enough of them!), so what? None of them bother me, so let them rant and rave.




That puts you in good company. When dolts like Jack declare themselves your enemy, you know you're on the right side of history!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 10:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Instead they're going to do their contempt thing, only about who knew what and when, not who DID what and when. It's absurd. I find it both political gamesmanship with no interest in the actual issue, and sad for our country that things have gotten SO out of hand.


Hello,

I agree that the GOP has impure intentions in their pursuit of this.

However, I do still want it investigated and pursued because of the reasons I outlined, even if the disclosure of such information is a mere side effect of their political maneuvering.

I think there is something wrong here that isn't being looked at yet.

--Anthony






Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:42 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Jack that made no sense. Niki was agreeing with you and you called her mean things, does that seem right to you? Sometimes you don't make any sense, why do you do that? And sometimes you're starting to sound like PN with your agent Haken thing, just to tell you.

What's up with you man?

I have Kathy Bates on speed dial, mwa ha ha ha (in exaggeratedly evil voice)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya.

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 5:09 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:

Instead they're going to do their contempt thing, only about who knew what and when, not who DID what and when. It's absurd. I find it both political gamesmanship with no interest in the actual issue, and sad for our country that things have gotten SO out of hand.


Hello,

I agree that the GOP has impure intentions in their pursuit of this.

However, I do still want it investigated and pursued because of the reasons I outlined, even if the disclosure of such information is a mere side effect of their political maneuvering.

I think there is something wrong here that isn't being looked at yet.

--Anthony





A large part of what I took away from the article has to do with the idea it conveys of a state prosecutor's office that looks to be lazy, if not outright corrupt as hell. Some sort of small-town good ol' boys network, where they decide who gets charged, who gets freed, and who gets rich, and they don't want to let the ATF play on their field.

And there's an awful lot of sour grapes going through some of the ATF factions inside, too.

Sounds like they need to do some deep investigations into the GOP-led Arizona state justice system!





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:46 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh gee, what a non-surprise, yet another alphabet agency heavily invested in deliberately and maliciously creating and supporting the very "threat" that justifies their otherwise-useless and parasitic existence...

Oh wait, there is a surprise, they got caught and called on it - such as it'll be, which won't be much.

And Jack ?
Seriously, last straw, I've had it with your nuttery and malice.
My well of patience ain't infinate, and you've done tapped it out, so don't bother pretending we're friends no more.

-Frem

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Friday, June 29, 2012 6:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


HEY FREM!!! Missed you, man, muchly. Great to see you agin. Worried about you, until Riona (or was it Byte?) told us you were just busy. Whew! Given you being you, I worry...


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Friday, June 29, 2012 6:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Oh gee, what a non-surprise, yet another alphabet agency heavily invested in deliberately and maliciously creating and supporting the very "threat" that justifies their otherwise-useless and parasitic existence...

Oh wait, there is a surprise, they got caught and called on it - such as it'll be, which won't be much.

And Jack ?
Seriously, last straw, I've had it with your nuttery and malice.
My well of patience ain't infinate, and you've done tapped it out, so don't bother pretending we're friends no more.

-Frem



You ain't been around for a while Frem....

Niki and Kwick have been gang-banging me from thread to thread for a while now.


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Friday, June 29, 2012 1:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:

Niki and Kwick have been gang-banging me from thread to thread for a while now.




Really? When and where did this "gang-banging" begin, exactly?

I call out your idiocy, sure. I point out when you claim things as "facts" that have no basis in reality at all, and are nothing more than your lame-brained opinions with no supporting evidence beyond your friend-of-a-friend anecdotes.

I've pointed out your hypocrisy because it is real and genuine hypocrisy. You despise those you consider leeches on society, yet you yourself collect unemployment and then waste it on booze and cigarettes.

And get it straight: I don't begrudge you collecting unemployment. You paid into the system; it's supposed to be there when you need help. What grinds my gears is that you bag on anyone else - people you don't know, have never met, and have no idea of the circumstances of their need - who gets what you feel you're entitled to.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero


"I've not watched the video either, or am incapable of intellectually dealing with the substance of this thread, so I'll instead act like a juvenile and claim victory..." - Rappy

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Friday, June 29, 2012 1:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA



So what Jack ?
As I told another yahoo who ran my patience out in much the same fashion, there's had it comin, there's askin for it, and then there's the stuff you do.

Ain't just your knee-jerk regurgitation of bullshit you know in your heart is false, but happens to fit with what you think the world SHOULD be, even if it ain't, nor your brazen hostility to anyone who dares point that out to you, or even your obvious psychological issues driving a lot of inexcusable behavior - it's that you damn well know this and are not only wholly unconcerned, you seem to revel in it, treasuring your own deliberate malice and ignorance.
Well, not really ignorance... ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.

Dude, ain't the rest of the world which is so tremendously fucked up, although it has its moments - it's you.
And despite how you feel, what you WISH, how you think things should be, your refusal to accept some very plain realities strikes everyone you have contact with as you being insane - and likely a lot of your real life problems come from that, cause if it's obvious as hell in text I can only imagine how you come across in person.

But end of the day, essentially you've chosen a path which supports and enables the inhumanities I have opposed all my life - and taken pleasure in that choice, thus IMHO surrendering any claim to humanity and tolerance from me.
Ain't no simpler than that.

-Frem

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Saturday, June 30, 2012 5:55 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I found "The Arizona legislature has largely preempted political subdivisions (counties, cities) from passing their own firearms laws."

As to AZ's state laws, what I found was...



Doesn't really matter. There are Federal laws against straw purchases of firearms, and per your original article it was Federal prosecutors who refused to prosecute. So we have the FBI smuggling guns, the ATF watching and doing pretty much nothing, and the Justice Department lawyers refusing to prosecute any straw buyers the ATF DID arrest.

I'd say that the Attorney General DOES have a lot of questions to answer - along with highups in FBI, ATF, and the Federal Prosecutors office - and that the President's use of Executive Privilege seems bad judgement on his part, if apparently loyal to his appointee.

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Saturday, June 30, 2012 6:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oh goody, and here's Geezer, right on cue with his mindless propaganda, saved only from being AS LAUGHABLE as little Rappy b/c he doesn’t post AS MUCH.

So, hey post away!

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Saturday, June 30, 2012 7:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Sorry that's how you feel, old friend....

World's changed and so have I. If this means we part ways here, I forgive you for that. I hope you do the same for me.




Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

So what Jack ?
As I told another yahoo who ran my patience out in much the same fashion, there's had it comin, there's askin for it, and then there's the stuff you do.

Ain't just your knee-jerk regurgitation of bullshit you know in your heart is false, but happens to fit with what you think the world SHOULD be, even if it ain't, nor your brazen hostility to anyone who dares point that out to you, or even your obvious psychological issues driving a lot of inexcusable behavior - it's that you damn well know this and are not only wholly unconcerned, you seem to revel in it, treasuring your own deliberate malice and ignorance.
Well, not really ignorance... ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.

Dude, ain't the rest of the world which is so tremendously fucked up, although it has its moments - it's you.
And despite how you feel, what you WISH, how you think things should be, your refusal to accept some very plain realities strikes everyone you have contact with as you being insane - and likely a lot of your real life problems come from that, cause if it's obvious as hell in text I can only imagine how you come across in person.

But end of the day, essentially you've chosen a path which supports and enables the inhumanities I have opposed all my life - and taken pleasure in that choice, thus IMHO surrendering any claim to humanity and tolerance from me.
Ain't no simpler than that.

-Frem




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Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:13 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh goody, and here's Geezer, right on cue with his mindless propaganda, saved only from being AS LAUGHABLE as little Rappy b/c he doesn’t post AS MUCH.

So, hey post away!



Hello,

I am unsure what Geezer posted that was propaganda? Failure of prosecutors to pursue and suspicious involvement of FBI informants deserves investigation.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 5:04 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh goody, and here's Geezer, right on cue with his mindless propaganda...



So are you saying that the ATF didn't let straw purchases occur, that the FBI didn't promote them, the prosecutors didn't fail to prosecute, and the Justice Department didn't tell Congress none of it happened? Or are you saying it all happened but it's not a big deal?

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 6:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Anthony,

First of all, Geezer repeatedly post-edited, right up to b4 this reply, including adding this whole paragraph "Doesn't really matter. ... refusing to prosecute any straw buyers the ATF DID arrest" between last night and this morning, and adding NIKI's quote between the time I started drafting my reply to you and the time I posted it. The original post I replied to is constantly being changed.

Also, I thought the situation was made clear not just through this article but others. There was no Obama gun-walking program, except for one aborted effort by Dodson who, IMO should have been fired as insubordinate a long time ago. But it looks like there WERE genuine gun-walking programs under Bush which, by everybody's accounts, resulted in not a single prosecution during the Bush administration.

So, if it's not gun-walking, what is the reason to 'investigate' the AG's office? B/c its Phoenix prosecutors under the Obama administration didn't prosecute cases weaker than other cases Phoenix prosecutors didn't prosecute during the Bush administration?

What malfeasance EXACTLY are they suspected of? Aside from being in the Obama administration that is.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


well I do hate guns, and never having met a gunowner, can't say how exactly I feel about them, but I don't think that entitles anyone to call me a cunt....

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:49 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Kiki,

I apologize that some of the shifting sands in posts might be unnoticed by me.

These are my concerns:

1) We know from this article that some of the straw purchasers in this case were working for the FBI

2) We know that ATF agents involved in Fast and the Furious were actually feeding guns to criminals themselves and letting those guns vanish. This was being done by F&F agents at the same time as F&F even if this specific operation was given a different name. Perhaps we should call this the group VII investigation.

3) We have odd irreconcilable statements about controlling the pace of straw purchases. I want to know a lot more about that. Either they couldn't do anything, or they could and they didn't.

4) And now we have Executive Privilege protecting additional documents.

I don't understand anyone who doesn't want this investigated further, whether you believe in conspiracy theories or not. Something odd was going on here and it behooves the public to know what it is.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 12:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello Magons,

How do you feel about swords, knives, and clubs?

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:05 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello Magons,

How do you feel about swords, knives, and clubs?

--Anthony




Purpose built for killing? There is a difference between a bread knife and a bayonet. Or a cricket bat and warhammer. Although I admit to finding some swords aesthetically pleasing, I'm hoping that if you have them on display they are blunt.

I'd feel anxious around anyone who owns any weapons, period. Although I do recognise that they are sometimes necessary. Farmers own shotguns to keep vermin off their land for example. If I lived in a violent society and was seriously worried about being carjacked or home invasion, I'd probably have something to protect myself. But I would always remember that the purpose of a weapon was injury or death, and I'd still hate it. They are ugly things for ugly deeds.

The more I read about the issues of guncrime in the US, the more I am grateful that I live somewhere where there are restrictions on gun ownership. I know that goes against the philosophy of many fine people on this board, but that's how I feel.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"We know from this article that some of the straw purchasers in this case were working for the FBI"

That's true. But what that means isn’t clear.

"We know that ATF agents involved in Fast and the Furious were actually feeding guns to criminals themselves and letting those guns vanish."

Eh, not according to the article. What I got out of it was this: despite being hampered by a lack of resources, by ambiguous and weak laws, and by Fed requirements (for wiretaps for example) tied to Fed funding, the ATF agents were trying desperately to track down large purchases, confiscate guns when possible, and create enough of a trail to have a prosecutable case. There was ONE instance by an agent named Dodson who did intentionally let guns walk, went on vacation and failed to track them, THEN who went on CNN to complain about 'widespread' gun-walking - all, as I gather, in a snit fit with his boss Voth. The hitch came with the Arizona AGs who demanded more/ different evidence and didn't move quickly on prosecutions.


"We have odd irreconcilable statements about controlling the pace of straw purchases."

That's overstating it by, well, a lot. You have one phrase in one sentence in a raft of statements and other evidence over a long time that clearly don't support that interpretation. I put it down to awkward or careless drafting.

"Something odd was going on here and it behooves the public to know what it is."

But is that 'something odd' centered on the USAG or on Arizona and Phoenix specifically? Considering that there were gun-walking programs under Bush in that same area, and NOT ONE prosecution in all that time, it seems far more likely to me to be a problem with a specific location and its peculiarities, not an administration.


And I personally would be FAR more concerned with fixing the fact that 2000 guns PER DAY end up in Mexico.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:35 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

There was ONE instance by an agent named Dodson who did intentionally let guns walk, went on vacation and failed to track them


Hello,

Dodson was an ATF agent working F&F. His gunwalking program was given a different identity. If we want to expand this to the Group VII investigation, I'm fine. I'd like to see this expanded until all answers are had.

Quote:

You have one phrase in one sentence in a raft of statements and other evidence over a long time that clearly don't support that interpretation.


This is an excellent reason to open up all documents without limitation. The statement makes no sense in light of the other evidence. It's not just awkward phrasing, it's utterly nonsensical. Unless the ATF was having an influence on the pace of these straw purchases, there is no reason to even bring up the pace. It's a statement that makes me feel like I'm missing something.

Quote:

But is that 'something odd' centered on the USAG or on Arizona and Phoenix specifically? Considering that there were gun-walking programs under Bush in that same area, and NOT ONE prosecution in all that time, it seems far more likely to me to be a problem with a specific location and its peculiarities, not an administration.


I never suspected the administration of wrongdoing until they blocked additional information from discovery. Now that they have, I consider them complicit in a coverup. Of what? Who knows. I see no reason for transparency to be limited. Someone in government disagrees with me.

Quote:

And I personally would be FAR more concerned with fixing the fact that 2000 guns PER DAY end up in Mexico.


A viable concern. I don't know the number, myself. I doubt your number is entirely accurate, as it would represent the export of 730,000 guns per year and I'm not sure there's enough demand for that quantity of firearms on a continuing basis. Once you equip your criminal empire with guns, why keep up the pace of imports? I feel the number is much more likely to ebb and flow.

But if the FBI and ATF is involved in this process in any way, I want to know, and I want to know the specifics of how and why. If we want to stem the tide of illegal exports, the involvement of these agencies is paramount, But at this point I'm not sure how effective these agencies can be at the task we would assign them. Circumstantial evidence suggests they're buggering it to some degree, and I want that fully explored from the bottom to the top.

--Anthony








Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 1:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"This is an excellent reason to open up all documents without limitation."

Ahem. There are documents that the AG can't LEGALLY release to Congress. AFAIK ALL documents that can LEGALLY be released have been released. So, do you want to break the law to protect the law? Or what?

"It's not just awkward phrasing, it's utterly nonsensical."

And yet I can imagine all sorts of reasons why someone would say that that have nothing to do with a vast secret hush-hush conspiracy. One of them is simply a face-saving gesture to his group/ mission, an awkward way of trying to keep blame off of a potential target.

Speaking of conspiracies BTW - you haven’t participated in either a FOIA effort or a deep investigation. But I have from both the receiver end and producer end, and have had opportunity to look at server records, email records, phone records, documents, as well as provide them. As a government agency all these things MUST be recorded as potentially public documents. You really couldn't hide a conspiracy that well.

"I never suspected the administration of wrongdoing until they blocked additional information from discovery."

See that thing about records not being legal to take to Congress.

"Circumstantial evidence suggests they're buggering it to some degree, and I want that fully explored from the bottom to the top."

Wow. I never expected you to be so blatantly biased. Did you not read the article? Do I need to go back and quote it at length? It clearly showed that weak Federal laws with high evidence requirements make this a difficult prosecution. It clearly showed that weak state laws make it difficult to enforce either state or Federal laws. That you could read these histories AT LENGTH and have them totally go by you as meaningful speaks to some powerful prejudices.



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Sunday, July 1, 2012 2:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think there are some powerful prejudices going on here, but I'm not sure they're mine.

First you'll have to explain to me why congress can't peruse documents pertaining to the operation of the Federal government.

Second, you'll have to explain to me how you can believe that 1 out of every 14 guns sold in the U.S. is being exported illegally to Mexico, and yet NOT want this investigation into the hardcore botching of gun trafficking operation investigations.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"First you'll have to explain to me why congress can't peruse documents pertaining to the operation of the Federal government."

Well, first of all, the documents being demanded are not about F&F - they're about what was the WH and Justice talking about when they were deciding how to respond to Congress. And those seem like they meet the definition of 'deliberative' documents which are exempt from disclosure. So if you think Issa is looking for F&F information, or that you will get your smoking gun on F&F due to him, you're seriously mistaken. All the information about F&F specifically has been released to the committee.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57463209/house-charges-holder-with
-contempt-of-congress
/

"The contempt does not address the controversial Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' Fast and Furious operation itself ...Instead, it is about subpoenaed documents the Justice Department is withholding from Congress in the investigation.

Holder has testified before Congress nine times and turned over thousands of pages of documents. But Republicans investigating the scandal say the answers to many outstanding questions could lie in tens of thousands of pages of documents the Justice Department has failed to turn over citing that they're part of the internal deliberative process or ongoing investigations."


http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/21/opinion/shane-holder-contempt/index.html

Deliberative privilege aims to protect documents generated anywhere in the executive branch that embody only the executive's internal deliberations, not final policy decisions.

The( documents) have to be turned over when the demanding branch can articulate a compelling need for the information to fulfill one of its own constitutional functions -- a need that outweighs the executive branch's interest in confidentiality.

A key problem now for the House Oversight Committee is thus far it has yet to state in a very concrete way why it needs the particular documents it is demanding.

In contrast, the executive branch has articulated a strong and highly specific reason for withholding the documents at issue: Forced disclosure to Congress of internal deliberations concerning how best to interact with Congress would undermine the executive's capacity to function as a co-equal branch. It would undermine the prospects for future candid deliberations about interactions with the other institutions of government."


Regarding executive privilege, did you also chafe when Dumbya claimed it during his administration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_privilege

"... and NOT want this investigation into the hardcore botching of gun trafficking operation investigations."

B/c from everything I've read, Texas ATF and AGs do fine, California ATF and AGs do fine, Arizona is the problem. Therefore, it seems to be not a general administration-wide problem but an Arizona-specific problem. I've made this distinction before, it seems like it didn't click. You can't fix the problem if you look in the wrong place for it.


ETA: All this information is widely available and well-published in mainstream sources. That you seem to be ignorant of it makes me wonder 2 things
1) what are your regular information sources, and
2) why you wouldn't pursue information that you had run across that was unknown to you, assuming you're seeking the truth and not a pre-decided conclusion.


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Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Regarding executive privilege, did you also chafe when Dumbya claimed it during his administration?


Hello,

Yes. Didn't you?

Quote:

Therefore, it seems to be not a general administration-wide problem but an Arizona-specific problem.


That's possibly the case. I want to be sure. And I'd like to know why two federal agencies are having Arizona specific problems. Remember, this isn't just about what they were unable to do because of peculiarities of Arizona law. This is also about what they did do that they shouldn't have and what they should have done but didn't.

I would like to see this investigation expand until all questions are satisfactorily resolved.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


There were some cases where Bush exercised executive privilege where I chafed - like the meeting with oil company executives exclusively to draft energy policy. To me that didn't meet the exemption clause, b/c it was about policy. Some other cases I either didn't care or thought it was appropriate.


"This is also about what they did do that they shouldn't have and what they should have done but didn't."

Then those questions have already been answered, as documentation regarding F&F has already been turned over. The record of who, what, when, where and how is already in Issa's hands. (Why is in people's heads and harder to get at.) If the 'proof' isn't there then it doesn't exist.

"This is also about what they did do that they shouldn't have and what they should have done but didn't."

What specifically?



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Sunday, July 1, 2012 5:41 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!




FAST & FURIOUS FACTS: 20,000 guns and 10,000 heads chopped off
Congress votes to arrest AG Eric Holder, Pelosi flees Congress in terror
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=52354


Eric holder ran the OK City bombing, Beware the Reichstag Fire


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Sunday, July 1, 2012 5:53 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


What did you ever do with yourself before photoshop?

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 6:40 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Anthony,

First of all, Geezer repeatedly post-edited, right up to b4 this reply, including adding this whole paragraph "Doesn't really matter. ... refusing to prosecute any straw buyers the ATF DID arrest" between last night and this morning, and adding NIKI's quote between the time I started drafting my reply to you and the time I posted it. The original post I replied to is constantly being changed.




Liar.

I wrote and posted and did not edit.

Such baseless accusations are about what I'd expect from you.

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Sunday, July 1, 2012 9:04 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

What specifically?


Hello,

That's a great question that I wish I could answer in fullness. From what I can see we have an operation where (if you'll pardon the metaphor) the ATF was selling guns, and the FBI was buying them, and nobody was prosecuting anybody. For an added bonus, the Executive is worried about releasing documents pertaining to what they may have said to one another about it.

But none of this interests you because all the relevant information is apparently already on the table and you can use your imagination to explain things that aren't currently explained by any of the data at hand.

My curiosity bites more deeply than yours, and my imagination is shallower.

The Republicans want to get the Democrats. I can see that.
The Democrats want this to go away.
I just want to know the entire story of what was going on, and this thread doesn't have the answers I'm looking for.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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Monday, July 2, 2012 2:15 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
What did you ever do with yourself before photoshop?



Raced cars against the highest paid superstars on the planet, winning awards in Hollywood, loaded nukes on supersonic bombers targeted at US allies, controlled demolitions of US Govt buildings using nukes, killed babies for the US fed govt.

Photochop is easier and usually less scary, and sometimes more fun, especially after I photograph supermodels. But supermodels can be very demanding.




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Monday, July 2, 2012 2:22 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You see, this is what gets uncovered through an deep seacrh of records. No evidence of a major program, just one man in a snit looking to make his boss look bad. Somehow you think that if something like this can be found, something much much larger can be hidden.

Out of curiosity, did you believe it as well when it was claimed E Anglia climate change researchers had fabricated the entire set of evidence for global warming, by a few sentences in hacked emails taken out of context out of THOUSANDS OF FILES ?

Are you that credulous when something fits your preconceived notions? Do you normally skip over the vast vast amount of data showing you you're wrong?



The ATF's accusers seem untroubled by evidence that the policy they have pilloried didn't actually exist.

... Dodson then proceeded to walk guns intentionally, with Casa and Alt's help. On April 13, 2010, one month after Voth wrote his schism e-mail, Dodson opened a case into a suspected gun trafficker named Isaiah Fernandez. He had gotten Casa to approve the case when Voth was on leave. Dodson had directed a cooperating straw purchaser to give three guns to Fernandez and had taped their conversations without a prosecutor's approval.

Voth first learned these details a month into the case. He demanded that Dodson meet with him and get approval from prosecutors to tape conversations. Five days later, Dodson sent an uncharacteristically diplomatic response. (He and Alt had revised repeated drafts in that time, with Alt pushing to make the reply "less abrasive." Dodson e-mailed back: "Less abrasive? I felt sick from kissing all that ass as it was.") Dodson wrote that he succeeded in posing undercover as a straw purchaser and claimed that prosecutor Hurley—who he had just belatedly contacted—had raised "new concerns." The prosecutor had told Dodson that an assistant U.S. Attorney "won't be able to approve of letting firearms 'walk' in furtherance of your investigation without first briefing the U.S. Attorney and Criminal Chief."

It was the first time Voth learned that Dodson intended to walk guns. Voth says he refused to approve the plan and instead consulted his supervisor, who asked for a proposal from Dodson in writing. Dodson then drafted one, which Voth forwarded to his supervisor, who approved it on May 28.

On June 1, Dodson used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers, and gave these to Fernandez, who reimbursed him and gave him $700 for his efforts. Two days later, according to case records, Dodson—who would later testify that in his previous experience, "if even one [gun] got away from us, nobody went home until we found it"—left on a scheduled vacation without interdicting the guns. That day, Voth wrote to remind him that money collected as evidence needed to be vouchered within five days. Dodson e-mailed back, his sarcasm fully restored: "Do the orders define a 'day'? Is it; a calendar day? A business day or work day….? An Earth day (because a day on Venus takes 243 Earth days which would mean that I have plenty of time)?"

The guns were never recovered, the case was later closed, and Fernandez was never charged. By any definition, it was gun walking of the most egregious sort: a government agent using taxpayer money to deliver guns to bad guys and then failing to intercept them.


SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Monday, July 2, 2012 4:37 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Somehow you think that if something like this can be found, something much much larger can be hidden.


Hello,

Yes. I believe that things can be hidden. You see, even what we currently know is only known because a specific set of circumstances played out. Otherwise we wouldn't know what we know, and anyone suggesting such a ludicrous concept would be laughed at. Things are hidden all the time, till someone ferrets out the truth of things. At any point in this investigation if someone had said, "That's all we need to know" then more data about what was really going on would have escaped us.

Quote:

Out of curiosity, did you believe it as well when it was claimed E Anglia climate change researchers had fabricated the entire set of evidence for global warming, by a few sentences in hacked emails taken out of context out of THOUSANDS OF FILES ?


I actually suspected that some people were taking shortcuts in a legitimate field of research, and was glad when the affair was more closely examined.

(Kiki copies a segment of the prior article where ATF agents used government funds to release weapons to criminals and then failed to intercept them)

Thank you for copy and pasting material we're discussing.

I have heard no compelling response to my four areas of concern. None of the current information on the table satisfactorily addresses my four areas of concern. I only have you telling me not to worry about my four areas of concern and that I am foolish to believe that anything important could possibly remain undiscovered. Instead I should use my imagination to explain away all areas of concern and believe that the investigation has recovered all relevant facts.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term fits.)
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -Thomas Szasz

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